"Elementary mall planning"

[the capital urbanite]

Richard Bercuson . Elementary mall planning

Richard Bercuson
Citizen Special

Thursday, November 01, 2007

Be forewarned: The Train Yards shopping extravaganza looms.

For those not yet apprised of the retail explosion south of the Via Rail station, here is the geographical context.

Trainyards Drive is a new slice of pavement that connects Industrial Boulevard with Terminal Avenue and wends its way to Belfast Road. The drive is only new because a mammoth parcel of retail land, more than 36 hectares and more than twice the size of Lansdowne Park, is under construction. Developers rightly figured they needed a road for people to get to it.

The private development, called Ottawa Train Yards, is building $200 million worth of retail space. A few bigshots are already there. Wal-Mart, Fairweather, Tip Top. Tommy Hilfiger is moving in, too. And since no mall is now complete without a dollar store, Dollarama bought into the team.

According to the Economic Theory of Western Consumerism, there is nothing inherently wrong with shopping malls.

They benefit society in many ways, the list of which is likely the subject of someone's doctoral thesis in retail marketing. In particular, indoor centres are fine places to hang around on a slow day after the leaves have been bagged. Plus, with our mercurial climate, they rescue us from the elements.

These are positive things. So when a new mall is preparing to open, there are ripples of excitement concerning what marvellous stores we can explore. We tend not to pay much heed to its layout. At first.

In this part of the world, the natural expectation is that a mall should either be indoors or have some type of overhang to shield shoppers. At the very least, you'd expect stores to be close enough to allow you to meander easily from one to the next without spending much time outside. Certainly you don't want to have to climb back into your car to get to the next store.

Then what's with the new Train Yard development? Was it designed by the same exercise freak who laid out the monstrosities that line Innes Road in Orléans? Those big-box stores and mini-malls require mass transit or long-distance training to get from one to the next.

Train Yards isn't so far off. Stores are spread around the perimeter of the land with the parking lot in the middle. If you shop at Tommy Hilfiger, for instance, and want to check out Fairweather or Wal-Mart, you risk life and limb trekking across the lot. On the other hand, it'll get you in shape.

I don't understand the logic behind such planning. I recall visiting outlet malls in the torrid southern U.S. heat. Planners knew enough to put the stores side by side in the middle of the land and the parking lots on the outside. Hence, you walked from store to store on a sidewalk and usually under cover. I believe they referred to it as convenience. This in a country that worships the automobile just ahead of high-school football.

The development site won't be just retail alone. Plans include about 1.1 million square feet of office space eventually occupying as many as eight towers. According to Barry Nabatian, who did market research for the project, Train Yards is within easy driving distance of more than 200,000 people.

True. So is St. Laurent Mall on the other side of the Queensway. It has a roof. In summer, the place is cooled and in winter, heated. It also has washrooms. You park your car and head to dozens of stores at once.

Just what the east end needed: another slapdash retail mall design where you need a GPS device to negotiate the parking lot. On the bright side though, it makes the collection of strip malls on St. Joseph Boulevard seem inviting.

- - -

This just in: After months of rumours that swirled like the dough on an apple fritter doughnut, the time may be nigh.

A construction fence has been erected around a chunk of parking lot in a Blackburn Hamlet strip mall. Blackburn, you must know, is generally regarded as the jewel of eastern suburbia. But without a proper coffee spot, it's been a bit tarnished. Three coffee joints and five restaurant owners have failed at satiating embittered Blackburnians' lust for a nice place to hunker down for a few minutes with a mug of familiar brew.

But if construction is what people think -- hope -- dream it is, well, even the ugliness of November won't diminish the thrill. Alas, is Tims really coming to the Hamlet?

Richard Bercuson is an Ottawa writer and teacher.
© The Ottawa Citizen 2007

[clynnog]

Be forewarned: The Train Yards shopping extravaganza looms.

For those not yet apprised of the retail explosion south of the Via Rail station, here is the geographical context.

Trainyards Drive is a new slice of pavement that connects Industrial Boulevard with Terminal Avenue and wends its way to Belfast Road. The drive is only new because a mammoth parcel of retail land, more than 36 hectares and more than twice the size of Lansdowne Park, is under construction. Developers rightly figured they needed a road for people to get to it.

The private development, called Ottawa Train Yards, is building $200 million worth of retail space. A few bigshots are already there. Wal-Mart, Fairweather, Tip Top. Tommy Hilfiger is moving in, too. And since no mall is now complete without a dollar store, Dollarama bought into the team.


The development site won't be just retail alone. Plans include about 1.1 million square feet of office space eventually occupying as many as eight towers. According to Barry Nabatian, who did market research for the project, Train Yards is within easy driving distance of more than 200,000 people.


- - -

This just in: After months of rumours that swirled like the dough on an apple fritter doughnut, the time may be nigh.

A construction fence has been erected around a chunk of parking lot in a Blackburn Hamlet strip mall. Blackburn, you must know, is generally regarded as the jewel of eastern suburbia. But without a proper coffee spot, it's been a bit tarnished.

But if construction is what people think -- hope -- dream it is, well, even the ugliness of November won't diminish the thrill. Alas, is Tims really coming to the Hamlet?




Is this what living in the burbs has boiled down to....ranting about having to walk from your car to a series of stores (btw in these big box monstrosities how many times do you go to more than 2 stores in any one shopping trip), and drooling at the thought that you little burb (Blackburn Hamlet in this case), is now going to be blessed with a Tim's (with a d/t I'm sure).

The author of this piece is stating the obvious with the piece about the Trainlands site. This is hardly ground breaking investigative journalism.

[clynnog]

The development site won't be just retail alone. Plans include about 1.1 million square feet of office space eventually occupying as many as eight towers. According to Barry Nabatian, who did market research for the project, Train Yards is within easy driving distance of more than 200,000 people.




In my experience with Barry N, check and double check any #'s he stands behind. I dont' believe that the City place any faith in any market studies these days, as they have been proved to be infinitely positive for the proponent and creating no undue impact on existing stores and retail markets.

[AuxTown]

I don't know if any of you guys have been, but I really like the layout of the Canada One Factory Outlet Mall in Niagara Falls. The layout of the mall is a big U of stores with all of the parking in the middle. The entire U is covered and there is a foodcourt and washrooms about half way. It is also really nicely landscaped. I found it really nice to walk from store to store and not have to dodge any traffic. It's also packed every day of the week. I think something like this would do really well in Ottawa. For example, for the Trainyards, you could put Walmart and other big box stores which would never fit in this style of mall all together at one end and the put the clothing and smaller retails into one of these U-shaped walkways. Well, it's too late now and Trainyards, Kanata Centrum, Innes area, and Gloucester Centre are all disasters.

http://www.embassysuitesniagara.com/info/images/factory_outlet.jpg
http://www.niagarafallstouristbureau.org/images/px28.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6655/canadaonefu5.jpg
http://www.nfpl.library.on.ca/nfplindex/data/8/0/245080-535132.JPG
http://www.nfpl.library.on.ca/nfplindex/data/8/9/245089-535168.JPG

[clynnog]

I don't know if any of you guys have been, but I really like the layout of the Canada One Factory Outlet Mall in Niagara Falls. The layout of the mall is a big U of stores with all of the parking in the middle. The entire U is covered and there is a foodcourt and washrooms about half way. It is also really nicely landscaped.

I was there in the summer of 2005 after a day at Marineland. You are right, the design of the plaza works quite well and the expanse of parking is only evident for a short portion of a person's travel along the street it fronts on. I remember my wife spending a fortune at the Ecco shoe outlet there; since then I've become a convert myself to the shoes.

[harls]

http://www.nfpl.library.on.ca/nfplindex/data/8/9/245089-535168.JPG

I'd like to see this place during a downpour.

[movebyleap]

I just checked the retailers. Nothing special or out of the ordinary that would entice me to go there over St Laurent or Rideau Centre. They ought to be going after companies that don't yet have a presence in this town. But Dollar Store? Walmart? Wendy's? Payless? Please! Give me a break! Now Simons is a different story. I'd risk my life running across parking lots to get to Simons. Or Archambault. Pottery Barn. Zara. My students would make a mad dash to H&M. Why does the retail sector have virtually no variety in this town? Bring on the cool stores and customers WILL come!!

[BlackRedGold]

Why does the retail sector have virtually no variety in this town? Bring on the cool stores and customers WILL come!!

I think a lot of the big chains that haven't shown up in Ottawa yet are probably trying to have their first location at the Rideau Centre. But without an expansion, there's no room for them.

I bet if Les Ailes de Modes had lasted a little longer at Bayshore, that the upswing of the dollar would have had stores like H&M or Pottery Barn taking over that space instead of Winners and a grocery store.

[agrigentum]

I just checked the retailers. Nothing special or out of the ordinary that would entice me to go there over St Laurent or Rideau Centre. They ought to be going after companies that don't yet have a presence in this town. But Dollar Store? Walmart? Wendy's? Payless? Please! Give me a break! Now Simons is a different story. I'd risk my life running across parking lots to get to Simons. Or Archambault. Pottery Barn. Zara. My students would make a mad dash to H&M. Why does the retail sector have virtually no variety in this town? Bring on the cool stores and customers WILL come!!

Thank-you, when I first moved here from St. Catharines I was shocked to find out there was no H&M location. St. Catharines, a city of 130,000 people has an H&M for godsakes!

I have a hard time buying the reason that big fashion stores are not coming here because Rideau has no immediate plans for expansion. I'm gonna start ranting now...but there are a million people in this region, and the Rideau Centre is what is holding everything up??? I can't believe that a business like H&M or even Pottery Barn, Urban Outfitters and Zara who have successful stores at streetlevel, would wait 3-5 years to enter a market this large just because of one mall's reluctance to expand. If that really is the reason, that's pathetic! The first H&M locations in both Toronto and Montreal opened in the suburbs, not downtown (Toronto - Fairview (North York), Montreal - Pointe-Claire).

Why the reluctance to open new stores in Ottawa???? There has to be a good reason out there.

[Rysdad]

I disagree ottawa-gatineau has a very diverse retail mix. Its just that people from Ottawa will not take advantage of Gatineau. There is an archambault store in Gatineau for eg. and someone above asked why ottawa doesnt have one. There are many retailers in Ottawa Gatineau that arent even in the GTA.
Brault et Martineault
Archambault
Clement
Jean Cotou
les cages aux sports
and we had a Les Ailes de la Mode

[citizen j]

Thank-you, when I first moved here from St. Catharines I was shocked to find out there was no H&M location. St. Catharines, a city of 130,000 people has an H&M for godsakes!

I have a hard time buying the reason that big fashion stores are not coming here because Rideau has no immediate plans for expansion. I'm gonna start ranting now...but there are a million people in this region, and the Rideau Centre is what is holding everything up??? I can't believe that a business like H&M or even Pottery Barn, Urban Outfitters and Zara who have successful stores at streetlevel, would wait 3-5 years to enter a market this large just because of one mall's reluctance to expand. If that really is the reason, that's pathetic! The first H&M locations in both Toronto and Montreal opened in the suburbs, not downtown (Toronto - Fairview (North York), Montreal - Pointe-Claire).

Why the reluctance to open new stores in Ottawa???? There has to be a good reason out there.


There is a reason, and I suspect it's ignorance. Ottawa doesn't register on the radar with so many people. It's often a major revelation when (if it comes up in conversation) I tell people here in Toronto that Ottawa-Gatineau's population passed the million mark years ago. Many of them think it's the size of Hamilton, or London or K-W, ... or they just don't think about it all. You've got to wonder if that's the same kind of thinking that's behind the lack of retail expansion into the Ottawa area -- people in marketing haven't got it on their list of possibilities either because they've failed to recognize the size of the market, or because they're operating under the stereotype that Ottawa's a staid, conservative market, or some other inaccurate assumption. It seems absurd, but there it is.

[p_xavier]

I just checked the retailers. Nothing special or out of the ordinary that would entice me to go there over St Laurent or Rideau Centre. They ought to be going after companies that don't yet have a presence in this town. But Dollar Store? Walmart? Wendy's? Payless? Please! Give me a break! Now Simons is a different story. I'd risk my life running across parking lots to get to Simons. Or Archambault. Pottery Barn. Zara. My students would make a mad dash to H&M. Why does the retail sector have virtually no variety in this town? Bring on the cool stores and customers WILL come!!

Ottawa will be the first expansion for Simons outside of QC, it will be St-Laurent Centre unless their are definitive plans for the Rideau Centre. If the congress centre construction is approved, tunnels will be built as per the plans to the NAC, and could link to Sparks street, where we could see stores of that caliber. But there is definitely a lack of a coherent DT plan for stores. In the other cities, it's clearer where to build higher end stores, here? Where...

[agrigentum]

Ottawa will be the first expansion for Simons outside of QC, it will be St-Laurent Centre unless their are definitive plans for the Rideau Centre.

Are you serious? St-Laurent Centre wouldn't be a bad location for Simons, but I would prefer it open downtown. The old Ogilvy's would have been a cool building for Simons.

What was behind the decision for Holt Renfew to open where it did? I'm surprised there hasn't been any further openings of higher end stores in that building or along Sparks Street nearby since its Ottawa debut.

I remember reading that a "national retailer" was supposed to open up on the ground level of Claridge Plaza. Any news on what that retailer will be?

[p_xavier]

Are you serious? St-Laurent Centre wouldn't be a bad location for Simons, but I would prefer it open downtown. The old Ogilvy's would have been a cool building for Simons.

What was behind the decision for Holt Renfew to open where it did? I'm surprised there hasn't been any further openings of higher end stores in that building or along Sparks Street nearby since its Ottawa debut.

I remember reading that a "national retailer" was supposed to open up on the ground level of Claridge Plaza. Any news on what that retailer will be?

There was an interview last year with Peter Simons in the La Presse Affaire, and he mentionned that the St-Laurent Centre is in his vision if the city can't do anything about DT commercial situation.

Holt Renfrew didn't want anything to do with Rideau Centre, as it wasn't high end enough (hence, poor transit users).

From March 2006:
The Rideau Centre's determination to remain Ottawa's pre-eminent shopping destination is driving plans to increase available space for small and medium-sized stores by one third.

By the time the downtown shopping mall celebrates its 25th anniversary in 2008, it will have an additional 25 to 30 stores. They will include some hot fashion retailers previously unknown in Ottawa, such as H&M and Zara.

The centre has long been unable to accommodate popular retailers that want to be there, says Cindy VanBuskirk, the mall's marketing director. In a well-publicized move last year, the centre did not renew the lease of the Disney Store. It opted instead to rent the space to Banana Republic, a hot fashion retailer that the centre had been wooing.

The Rideau Centre is among the top five shopping malls in Canada, and is the most successful in the national capital region, according to Ms. VanBuskirk. Ottawa market analyst Barry Nabatian says his research supports the Rideau Centre's claim to be number one in the Ottawa region.

The best measure of a store's – or shopping centre's – success is annual sales per square foot. Rideau Centre stores – not counting the Sears store – did annual business of $738 per square foot last year, according to Ms. VanBuskirk. That was an increase of 3.7 per cent over the previous year.

"I've been here almost 14 years, and we have never had a decline from year to year," she said.

Mr. Nabatian, general manager of Market Research Corp., tracks shopping centre sales in the capital region. After the Rideau Centre, he believes the area's "big three" shopping centres includes Bayshore and St. Laurent. He estimates Bayshore has annual sales of $650 to $700 per square foot, while St. Laurent has annual sales of $600 to $650 per square foot.

Among smaller shopping centres, he believes Carlingwood Mall and College Square (formerly Shoppers City West) are very successful, with annual sales of close to $700 per square foot.

Shopping centres routinely exclude large anchor stores from their sales figures. This makes for a less-than-perfect measure of how each centre is really doing. In recent years, both the Rideau Centre and Bayshore Shopping Centre lost a large anchor tenant.

Mr. Nabatian believes Les Ailes de la Mode, the Quebec-based chain that briefly operated a department store at Bayshore, would have done better in the Rideau Centre, where many francophones shop for fashions. Instead, Sears moved into the Rideau Centre following the collapse of the Eaton's chain.

A problem for all shopping centres – as well as for shoppers looking for high-quality merchandise – is the shrinking number of department stores that offer anything out of the ordinary. The Rideau Centre has tried, and failed, to persuade Holt Refrew, an upscale store selling mostly fashions, to move from Sparks Street to the Rideau Centre.

While the Rideau Centre hopes to remain number one in productivity through its expansion, Mr. Nabatian believes Bayshore has a higher proportion of high-end stores. This will probably remain the case, he says, since the Rideau Centre's clientele includes tens of thousands of bus commuters who visit the centre or pass nearby every day. Many of those customers are not looking for high-end goods.

The Rideau Centre expansion will be more modest than originally contemplated. Owners of the commercial shopping centre had hoped to expand in a joint venture with a publicly-owned convention centre that would have been built atop a new part of the Rideau Centre.

That plan was scrapped after years of wrangling over how cost of the convention centre – now estimated at about $125 million – would be divided among the federal and provincial governments, the city, and the private sector. When and if a new convention facility is built it will be on top of the existing Ottawa Congress Centre.

The Rideau Centre's scaled-down expansion plan calls for the addition of 150,000 square feet of space at the north-east corner of the site, fronting on Rideau and Nicholas streets. It will be built where the old Ogilvie's department store stands and on the adjacent parking lot.

Of the 150,000 square feet of new space, 40,000 square feet will be for common areas and 110,000 square feet will be for new retail stores. The latter figure is crucial in the expansion.

At present, the Rideau Centre has about 170 retail stores squeezed into about 350,000 square feet of space. From a shopper's perspective, therefore, space occupied by small and medium-sized retail stores will expand by about one-third when the work is completed in late summer of 2008. The average size of the new stores will be larger than that of the existing stores, excluding the Sears department store

[clynnog]

I disagree ottawa-gatineau has a very diverse retail mix. Its just that people from Ottawa will not take advantage of Gatineau. There is an archambault store in Gatineau for eg. and someone above asked why ottawa doesnt have one. There are many retailers in Ottawa Gatineau that arent even in the GTA.
Brault et Martineault
Archambault
Clement
Jean Cotou
les cages aux sports
and we had a Les Ailes de la Mode

IIRC all of these chains are QC based and primarily focus on francophone areas of Ottawa and E. Ont. Jean Coutu had some stores in areas like Peterborough and Bowmanville and they closed them up. Brault, Jean Coutu and les Cages are just replicating what other stores/chains already here offer...ie. the Brick/Colonial, Shoppers Drug Mart/Rexall/Pharma Plus and Don Cherry's/any other sports theme bar.

[harls]

The Brick just came into the Quebec Market not too long ago, there's a store on Maloney now.. same with Best Buy.

Shopper's Drug Mart is Pharmaprix.. same chain.

Cage aux Sports is your typical sports bar chain with 1000 tv's and tacked up junk all over the walls.. the one in Hull actually gets big name bands to play at it, though (big for Quebec, that is).

[Rysdad]

One of the main problems with ottawa-gatineau is they are always treated seperately. Actually even ottawa pre-amalgamation cities are treated as seperate entities. Go to most retailers websites and use a store locator. The locations are broken into barrhaven, orleans etc etc and under ottawa(the old core) you'll find a location or 2. Most even in this market doesnt treat gatineau as the same urban area-which it really is depite a provincial boundary. Gatineau and Ottawa are just as much the same city as Toronto and Scarborough or Richmond and Surrey or Laval and MTL.
If you read even local papers this is seen..see below
[I][B]The region's first Wal-Mart Supercentres are set to open early next month in Rockland and Carleton Place. An expansion at a Wal-Mart on Innes Road in Orléans will result in the third Supercentre in the region as of early next year.
Gatineau has a supercentre really close to downtown ottawa opening any day. I think Gatineau is more apart of this region than Carleton Place or Rockland they are exurbs while most of gatineau is core.
its twin city of 1.3 million people, the 4th largest population centre in the country.

People in calgary wont shut about how they hit 1m people in the metro. Ottawa-gatineau was there since the early 90s. Is it because mtl has 3.7 m people and Tor has 5m that we feel insecure?

Its like TO wants to be new york, montreal wants to be paris and ottawa wants to be either mtl or TO :)

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I want Ottawa to be Ottawa.

A high-tech and green city that beautifully mixes the old with the new. An Ottawa that is forward looking and constantly growing, not looking back on the "small-town" days. A bilingual city that showcases innovation and design.

I don't want a T.O. Junior or a Montreal Junior.

[eemy]

its twin city of 1.3 million people, the 4th largest population centre in the country.

Where do people keep on getting these population figures from? The 2006 Census from Stats Canada say 1.13 million.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems that "Ottawa Counts" gives a population of 1.3 million. That's including all the neighbouring municipalities to Ottawa and Gatineau though. I'd have a hard time accepting that as a valid population for the Ottawa in the sense that we think of it as.

[AuxTown]

One of the main problems with ottawa-gatineau is they are always treated seperately.

I agree that Toronto loves to talk about the entire GTA and give themselves a population figure of 40 million or something, but who cares. Vancouver and Montreal have very distinct cities that make up their metro and it is widely acknowledged much in the way we do in Ottawa. If someone makes a chart in a study or a website let them use the 1.13 or 1.3 million figure, but I think it's important to keep the unique identities of Ottawa's composite cities....no matter how exurban (Orleans, Kanata, Barhaven) or grungy (Vanier) they might seem. I think since amalgamation, Kanata has become more autonomous than ever and it continues to diversify as 'Silicon Valley North'. I like how Orleans is French, Barhaven is a city of young families, Gatineau sometimes seems like a whole other world, and Manotick is a place for the wealthy. At least people can identify with their communities more than just saying I'm from Ottawa (a label which, in many cases, has negative connotations).

[harls]

It's a little weird, for sure. For most people, Gatineau and Ottawa may as well be hundreds of miles apart, the way we think of ourselves as one cohesive metro region. Sure, there are those who effortlessly travel back and forth across the river without a second thought; for others the border is a psychological and linguistic barrier. If we were all in one separate province or district, would this change? would we feel like a metro of 1.3 million or still two cities with an 80/20 split?

[BlackRedGold]

Gatineau and Ottawa are just as much the same city as Toronto and Scarborough

I think you're a little off with that one!

As far as the divide between the two, I think a great deal of it has to do with separate provinces causing the various organizations to splinter. Sports teams, be it high school or minor sports, have their games within their provinces. Growing up, the transit systems don't really make it easy for a teen to go to Promenade in Gatineau for a kid from Nepean or Bayshore in Nepean for a kid in Gatineau.

The other thing is that the English media in Ottawa rarely cover anything on the Quebec side unless it's a crime. I can't speak for what it is like in the French Gatineau media but it wouldn't be shocking if it did the same.

[BlackRedGold]

no matter how exurban (Orleans, Kanata, Barhaven)

I don't think any of those suburbs come close to exurbia. When I think exurbia, I think of Greely or the new developments in Carp outside the village.

[Acajack]

Yes, the Ottawa anglo media seem to only cover Gatineau if there is a crime (or if there is a perception that the anglo minority is being mistreated by evil Québécois).

As a general rule, the francophone media do cover Ottawa a bit more intensely (for example, Ottawa City Council is covered by several French media, whereas Gatineau City Council is generally not regularly covered by English media).

But I find the coverage of Ottawa by the French media (including Ottawa-based French media like the French CBC and LeDroit) to be more from the angle of Ottawa as a place where Gatineau people go to work and do business, rather than as a place where a significant proportion of their audience actually lives.

Francophone media usually only cover Ottawa at a non-political, community level when there is a perception that the francophone minority’s rights are being trampled by evil anglos (ie the Montfort case).

In this area, you’ll go hungry if you’re looking for daily French-language coverage of community issues in places like Orleans or Vanier.

Even the French CBC TV station based in Ottawa always crosses the river to do its street vox pops, or to do its fluffy reports on the first day of school, or trick-or-treating at Halloween.

[Acajack]

For those who can read French, we had an extensive discussion on Simons (Gatineau or Ottawa?) in the Gatineau – Les Projets forum starting here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=101824&page=7

It was actually my first foray into the world of SkyscraperPage Forums, and I’ve been in trouble ever since.

Our discussion was mostly on the commercial wisdom of Quebec chains choosing the Ottawa side (where they are relatively unknown) over the Gatineau side (in more familiar territory) for their first location in this area. There was a parallel established between the failed Les Ailes de la Mode at Bayshore and a hypothetical Simons at St. Laurent.

One of the opinions expressed was that Les Ailes counted greatly on people from the Quebec side crossing the river to Bayshore to compensate for its lack of brand image in Ontario. It didn’t happen – most people on the Quebec side snubbed Les Ailes at Bayshore.

My view is that there is a significant segment of the population in Gatineau that will not cross over to Ottawa to shop at a Quebec chain (especially if that chain doesn’t already have a Gatineau location). Reasons cited include not wanting to have to speak English to be served by a Québécois chain "from home", and the fact that merchandise is usually chosen to correspond to anglo rather than franco tastes.

Of course, it’s only normal that a store in Ottawa is going to have English-speaking staff, perhaps staff who speak English only. It’s also normal that a store is going to adapt its selection to the local clientele.

But you can’t change perceptions either. Which means don’t count on Gatineau too much to prop up a hypothetical Simons at St. Laurent.

[waterloowarrior]

It's a little weird, for sure. For most people, Gatineau and Ottawa may as well be hundreds of miles apart, the way we think of ourselves as one cohesive metro region. Sure, there are those who effortlessly travel back and forth across the river without a second thought; for others the border is a psychological and linguistic barrier. If we were all in one separate province or district, would this change? would we feel like a metro of 1.3 million or still two cities with an 80/20 split?

Interesting discussion. I grew up in Eastern Ontario (east of Ottawa), but I've rarely gone to Gatineau except for the park, museums, and golfing ... I was much more likely to go to Kanata for shopping/movies than to Gatineau, even though the latter was much closer (but probably farther away in my mind). The same goes for many of my friends from suburban Ottawa.

I think that barrier you mentioned is definitely a good way to think about it. It's very interesting how some people may have the perspective like they are one metro, while others see them as two entirely separate places, probably based on their experiences growing up, the media they read, what they are interested in, or what their job is. I think there are definitely a lot of challenges for retails who want to reach out to the entire metro.

[Acajack]

Warrior, you’ve reminded of the days when I used to live in Orleans, trying to get a group of guys from the eastern suburbs of Ottawa to agree on a place to watch a hockey game.

At the time, La Cage aux Sports had a location on promenade du Portage in downtown Hull, but it was ruled out by the gang as being “too far”.

We ended up going to Don Cherry’s on Centrepointe Drive!

Another time La Cage was once again ruled out for being too far, and the gang of east end Ottawans (almost all of them Franco-Ontarians, actually) ended up at Marshy’s in what was then the Palladium.

[movebyleap]

What you say about Les Ailes is interesting. It's true that they were unknown to the majority of non-francophones on the Ottawa side. I myself only discovered that company on regular Quebec trips after marrying a Quebec City native. Being a music teacher in Ottawa, I deal with (mostly anglophone) tweens and teens on a regular basis and it is surprising how many of them are very familiar with Simons. Many of them travel to Montreal regularly (with parents) just to go shopping there. I have no clue how or why this store has become so popular in these circles. I suspect that it's word of mouth, really.They all appreciate the good value and funky fashions that Simons offers. Also many girls are tired of the "prosti-tot" type styles you can find in most teen-oriented stores at, say, Place d'Orleans. They want something more sophisticated and unique. For that reason I think that Simons would actually be succesful at St Laurent. The east end is also more francophone and from that perspective it also makes more sense to open such a store here rather than Bayshore. Finally, population density is also higher on the eastern side of the Outaouais. A St Laurent location would be more accessible to more people from Gatineau. The question is :WHERE in St Laurent Centre would they find the space? Would they have to add on?

[Acajack]

Simons is big enough to have its own credit cards and actually surveyed its card holders in the Gatineau and Ottawa areas about 18 months ago. (There are many former Québec City residents in the area, particularly in Gatineau and for them Simons is an institution.)

Apparently the survey included mainly questions about a possible location for a store somewhere in this area.

Good point about where to locate a hypothetical additional department store at St. Laurent. Articles referring to talks between Simons and Morguard (owners of St. Laurent) referred to an expansion but that site seems pretty built out and parking is already a tight squeeze. But... where there’s a will there’s a way, I suppose, and all of this is just speculation anyway.

Interesting also is where Simons could go on the Quebec side. Les Galeries de Hull is the most centrally-located mall they could latch onto, but it’s in an even tighter position than St. Laurent. (They’re currently even eliminating some of their already rare parking spaces by putting in a Bâton Rouge restaurant on the northwest corner of the site.)

Les Promenades de l’Outaouais would have space on its site, but it’s not always seen by investors as a high-end mall (though it's improving). It does have the advantage of being easily accessible from Ottawa, although there is a perception in the wider Gatineau area that it’s too far away from higher income areas such as Plateau de la Capitale and Aylmer. The opening of the Boul. des Allumettières will certainly facilitate access between the eastern and western parts of Gatineau.

As well, few Canadian department stores have built stand-alone stores like you sometimes see in the States. If Simons wanted to move in that direction, it might consider the big box strip in the Plateau area, west of St-Raymond.

FYI – Simons has one store per 225 000 residents in the Québec City area, and also has a store in Sherbrooke (pop. 150,000), so although they may opt for Ottawa anyway for various reasons, to suggest that Gatineau would be too small for this chain is not really correct.

[Mille Sabords]

I would think a Simons would be a much more natural fit somewhere downtown rather than St-Laurent. Only thing is, the Rideau Centre doesn't look like it's expanding any time soon, and there are few other options in terms of availbale space...

[Acajack]

What's in the old Ogilvie's (Ogilvy's?) store at the corner of Rideau and Nicholas? I haven't paid attention to this site in a while but it seems as though it would be big enough for a Simons-type department store.

[clynnog]

Reasons cited include not wanting to have to speak English to be served by a Québécois chain "from home", and the fact that merchandise is usually chosen to correspond to anglo rather than franco tastes.



Without this getting too off topic and devolving into a political/language issue would you like to let us know what the difference is between 'anglo' and 'franco' tastes. Personally, I think it is too difficult to pidgeonhole 'anglos' into one type of taste and the same goes for 'francos'. However, I would be interested in your views.

[Mille Sabords]

Without this getting too off topic and devolving into a political/language issue would you like to let us know what the difference is between 'anglo' and 'franco' tastes. Personally, I think it is too difficult to pidgeonhole 'anglos' into one type of taste and the same goes for 'francos'. However, I would be interested in your views.

An anglo girl will dress, look and act either like Britney Spears or like her grandmother. A franco girl will dress, look and act like Audrey Tautou. :yes:

[p_xavier]

An anglo girl will dress, look and act either like Britney Spears or like her grandmother. A franco girl will dress, look and act like Audrey Tautou. :yes:


Are you sure it's not the other way around? Ontarians in general are quite conservative. Simons caters to anglophones mostly because they're richer, not everyone can pay $350 for a pair of jeans, some clothes go to $2000.

It's the same price range as holt renfrew, but with a cooler side.

[p_xavier]

What's in the old Ogilvie's (Ogilvy's?) store at the corner of Rideau and Nicholas? I haven't paid attention to this site in a while but it seems as though it would be big enough for a Simons-type department store.

Where do you think they wanted to be? And why do you think they were mad about the lack of Rideau Centre expansion, or any other available land DT?

[harls]

The one thing I notice with Gatineau girls is that they all dress alike.. same haircuts, same fashions.. it's like a carbon-copy of a ptit pitoune all over the place. In Ottawa, women are much more diverse... well, those that don't have the standard sweatpants and ID badge attached to a lanyard.

[eemy]

What's in the old Ogilvie's (Ogilvy's?) store at the corner of Rideau and Nicholas? I haven't paid attention to this site in a while but it seems as though it would be big enough for a Simons-type department store.

I'm not sure where exactly the old Ogilvie's store is, but I noticed there's a rather large parking lot immediately east of the Rideau Centre on Rideau Street. It would be nice if Simons was part of an expansion there, say a 3 or 4 story department store. It could probably connect to Centre Court in the Rideau Centre, it would be in close proximity to the Byward Market and therefore nearby the yuppies and it would connect very well to transit in Outaouais. Maybe they'd give the Bay a run for their money. :)

Edit: Umm, so I take it that is the Ogilvie's site? Why isn't the Rideau Centre going ahead with the expansion again? Even if Simon's doesn't locate there, I'm sure that a store like H&M would hop in at a moment's notice.

[waterloowarrior]

I'm not sure where exactly the old Ogilvie's store is, but I noticed there's a rather large parking lot immediately east of the Rideau Centre on Rideau Street. It would be nice if Simons was part of an expansion there, say a 3 or 4 story department store. It could probably connect to Centre Court in the Rideau Centre, it would be in close proximity to the Byward Market and therefore nearby the yuppies and it would connect very well to transit in Outaouais. Maybe they'd give the Bay a run for their money. :)

Edit: Umm, so I take it that is the Ogilvie's site? Why isn't the Rideau Centre going ahead with the expansion again? Even if Simon's doesn't locate there, I'm sure that a store like H&M would hop in at a moment's notice.

discussion of that parking lot in here
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2007/11-13/ACS2007-PTE-APR-0188.htm

[Acajack]

Clynnog:

I’ll leave it to others more able than me to describe what the respective “franco” and “anglo” looks are. But I can’t believe that you are suggesting that there is no difference whatsoever.

I used to work with the public and my colleagues and I used to have fun by addressing people in the language we thought they were “dressed like”. We were almost never wrong! Even today I can sit on a bench a place where the clientele is mixed (say Rideau Centre, St. Laurent or Place d’Orléans) and pick out francophones and anglophones based on the way they dress. Not that either one is necessarily better – just different.

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule (actually, in French we say that an exception actually serves to *confirm* the rule), but in our region there are without a doubt easily identifiable francophone and anglophone styles out there for everyone to see.

[Acajack]

Mille Sabords :

All francophone girls dress, look and act like Audrey Tautou????????

Be still my beating heart. I wish!!!!!!

[Acajack]

D Jeffrey:

When you say Simons caters to anglophones, I presume you are referring to an eventual foray into the Ottawa market?

Because over the past century and a half, Simons has in fact essentially catered to francophones because that is the crushing demographic majority in the area which is it its home base (Quebec City). Even in Greater Montreal, a fairly recent market incursion for Simons, a good 70 % or more of the demographic is francophone.

And Simons even has a new store in Sherbrooke, where the average family income is substantially lower than in Ottawa and even quite a bit lower than in Gatineau for that matter.

[movebyleap]

Let's forget about the rather "small town" mentality of a certain segment of the Outaouais population for a moment. If you go to Montreal or Quebec City, you will at once notice how much more attention people pay to personal grooming than in Ottawa or even Toronto. Both men and women seem to be more appearance conscious - comfort be damned. Styles are more European as are the labels. You'd have a hard time finding a woman in a dress suit and white running shoes (the kind that is ubiquitous here in Ottawa). A Montrealer once told me that an Ontarian will take his last dollar and put it in the bank, while a Quebecker will spend his last dollar on himself.

[p_xavier]

D Jeffrey:

When you say Simons caters to anglophones, I presume you are referring to an eventual foray into the Ottawa market?

Because over the past century and a half, Simons has in fact essentially catered to francophones because that is the crushing demographic majority in the area which is it its home base (Quebec City). Even in Greater Montreal, a fairly recent market incursion for Simons, a good 70 % or more of the demographic is francophone.

And Simons even has a new store in Sherbrooke, where the average family income is substantially lower than in Ottawa and even quite a bit lower than in Gatineau for that matter.

I actually worked in the Simons store in Sherbrooke (for a really short time), and I can confirm you that shoppers are mostly rich anglophone people. Sherbrooke itself is a poor city, but all the surrounding towns (North Hatley... ) have summer residences for the rich anglos. Simons caters mostly to gay guys and rich brats.

I mostly shop at ssense.com, which has top brands at a quarter of the price, they are located in old Montréal too.

[Acajack]

Anglos are only about 6% of the population in Greater Sherbrooke and in the Eastern Townships as a whole.

I don't mean to be petty but you mean to tell me that Simons can operate a 50,000+ sq. ft. moderate-to-high-end department store in Sherbrooke by catering to only 6% of the regional population (6% of 150,000 is only 9,000 people!) plus a handful of seasonal anglo cottagers from Montreal, Ontario and the States, who spend the summer on the shores of Lake Memphrémagog?

Wow, Simons are better business people than I thought. Where can I sign up for a class on how to run a business that would be given by Mr. Peter Simons?

[Acajack]

I forgot to mention something as well. Among francophones, Simons is not generally considered to be a high-end store. Certainly not in the same class as Les Ailes de la Mode and Holt Renfrew.

What I’ve mainly heard about Simons from people over the years is that they have pretty nice stuff at *reasonable* prices for the quality of what it is you're getting.

[clynnog]

A Montrealer once told me that an Ontarian will take his last dollar and put it in the bank, while a Quebecker will spend his last dollar on himself.

And remind which one is the 'have' province and which is the 'have not' province.

[Acajack]

Gadzooks?!?! We're not going to get into a "provincial superiority" thing here, are we?

'Cause if so I'm jumping ship!

[p_xavier]

I forgot to mention something as well. Among francophones, Simons is not generally considered to be a high-end store. Certainly not in the same class as Les Ailes de la Mode and Holt Renfrew.

What I’ve mainly heard about Simons from people over the years is that they have pretty nice stuff at *reasonable* prices for the quality of what it is you're getting.

Les Ailes de la Mode has been a discount-er store for the last few years, I don't know who you're taking to... It went downhill since they store at Bayshore closed...

At simons, you have basically the same brands at Holt Renfrew plus their own cheaper brand, and offer more edgy products. Holt Renfrew is for old rich hags, and is seen as such; it doesn't mean that Simons doesn't have the same products... Le Château is what I would consider a medium quality store, nothing is really expensive there, and clothes are of average build.

[p_xavier]

Anglos are only about 6% of the population in Greater Sherbrooke and in the Eastern Townships as a whole.

I don't mean to be petty but you mean to tell me that Simons can operate a 50,000+ sq. ft. moderate-to-high-end department store in Sherbrooke by catering to only 6% of the regional population (6% of 150,000 is only 9,000 people!) plus a handful of seasonal anglo cottagers from Montreal, Ontario and the States, who spend the summer on the shores of Lake Memphrémagog?

Wow, Simons are better business people than I thought. Where can I sign up for a class on how to run a business that would be given by Mr. Peter Simons?

You forgot about all Vermont and Bishop's university.... have you even been there?! I lived there for 7 years!

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Going back on topic, Train Yards celebrates their grand opening this Saturday. I got a flyer in the mail. They have a Scores there, eh? :)

[p_xavier]

Going back on topic, Train Yards celebrates their grand opening this Saturday. I got a flyer in the mail. They have a Scores there, eh? :)

Yeah, I got one too. Is Scores the chicken place?

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Yep. Chicken, salad bar, and cotes levees. :)

I discovered the place(along with La Cage au Sports) when I spent the summer in Chicoutimi, err- I mean Saguenay. :) :P

[p_xavier]

Yep. Chicken, salad bar, and cotes levees. :)

I discovered the place(along with La Cage au Sports) when I spent the summer in Chicoutimi, err- I mean Saguenay. :) :P

I've never been, I'm more a fan of St-Hubert when it comes to chicken, I could drown happily in their sauce.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I've always found St. Hubert to be a decent chicken place. I rarely go out for chicken though so for me, St. Hubert, Scores and Swiss Chalet are all fairly similar to me. :D :P

I'd rather go out for exotic food such as Japanese, Ethiopian, Vietnamese, etc.

[AuxTown]

Just a quick note on Simmons. I have been to 3 or 4 of their locations and at all of them the staff will only address you in French. Not only that, but I had a very difficult time finding any sales associates that speak a lick of English. That includes the location on St. Catherine. Obviously, they are not all that focused on the English demographic.

[Mille Sabords]

Just a quick note on Simmons. I have been to 3 or 4 of their locations and at all of them the staff will only address you in French. Not only that, but I had a very difficult time finding any sales associates that speak a lick of English. That includes the location on St. Catherine. Obviously, they are not all that focused on the English demographic.

They are headquartered in Quebec City, which might explain what you describe. Then again, in Montreal most young anglos can easily switch to French. Hard for us to picture that living in Ottawa, where the opposite is true. I've rarely seen anyone at Holt Renfrew speak a word of French. Are they not targeting the French demographic? Doesn't matter, I'm not French anyway so I switch.

[Mille Sabords]

Mille Sabords :

All francophone girls dress, look and act like Audrey Tautou????????

Be still my beating heart. I wish!!!!!!

:D

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I think that fluent bilingualism should be on both sides of the river. We are the Capital of Canada, which is comprised of two cities in two provinces that speak two different languages. The two official languages are English and French, dontcha think we should try to emulate that along with bilingualism?

[Mille Sabords]

I think that fluent bilingualism should be on both sides of the river. We are the Capital of Canada, which is comprised of two cities in two provinces that speak two different languages. The two official languages are English and French, dontcha think we should try to emulate that along with bilingualism?

So, back to that chicken... personally, I miss Church's Chicken at Harvey's. It might have been nutritional crap but mmmm good! especially the crispy chicken.

[harls]

God I miss Scores' salad bar. I could go for some of that.

I think that fluent bilingualism should be on both sides of the river. We are the Capital of Canada, which is comprised of two cities in two provinces that speak two different languages. The two official languages are English and French, dontcha think we should try to emulate that along with bilingualism?

I usually have no trouble with bilingualism in Gatineau, but always start out in French out of respect. the only place I've ever been asked 'do you want me to speak in English?' is in Aylmer.

There was a write up in Le Droit about a member of the OLF touring commerces in Aylmer and the use of English dominating a handful of businesses on rue Principale. Places like Mexicali Rosa's, 1 for 1 pizza, etc.

I think the OLF would go ape-shit in Wakefield.

[Mille Sabords]

There was a write up in Le Droit about a member of the OLF touring commerces in Aylmer and the use of English dominating a handful of businesses on rue Principale. Places like Mexicali Rosa's, 1 for 1 pizza, etc. I think the OLF would go ape-shit in Wakefield.

We should try to find out when the next OLF world tour is taking place and set up a candid camera at a number of stores, and then just plant fake clerks and customers to ONLY speak German at one store, ONLY Italian at the next, ONLY Spanish at the next... :jester:

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I usually have no trouble with bilingualism in Gatineau, but always start out in French out of respect.

Same. Even though my French sucks. :haha:

I think the OLF would go ape-shit in Wakefield.

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

We should try to find out when the next OLF world tour is taking place and set up a candid camera at a number of stores, and then just plant fake clerks and customers to ONLY speak German at one store, ONLY Italian at the next, ONLY Spanish at the next... :jester:

That would be totally awesome and die-hard Quebecers would die of a stroke! :haha:

[Acajack]

Much to the dismay of my Franco-Ontarian friends (many of which are quite militant about pushing French in Ottawa), I always start off in English in Ottawa, except in federal government officers or obviously francophone businesses like a caisse populaire. I find that service in French is so hit-and-miss in Ottawa, even in areas like Orleans and Vanier, that it’s too big a hassle and I just don’t have the time.

I always insist on being served in French on the Quebec side however, and have noticed a recent increase in the number of businesses in Gatineau that have staff who can’t speak any French at all. It’s still (for now) a relatively rare occurrence though – a handful of times a year at the most.

Oh, and by the way I spent an entire day in Wakefield with my family and some friends this past summer and although lots of people were speaking in English around us, we were served in French (without having to insist) by the staff in every single place we went (shops, restaurants, etc.). Granted, someone who lives there every day might have a different experience…

[Acajack]

Die-hard Quebecers would not die of a stroke at the sound of Spanish, Italian and German because, rightly or wrongly, the perceived threat is not there.

No one in Quebec cares whether or not people speak Spanish, Italian and German or Japanese for that matter because no one in the history of Quebec has ever really been forced to use them for their work and other public activities.

Similarly, no one cares in Barcelona if people speak French there, as the local issue is between Catalan and Spanish. Just as Chinese is not an issue in Miami, and who cares about German in LA or Polish in Brussels?

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Die-hard Quebecers would not die of a stroke at the sound of Spanish, Italian and German because, rightly or wrongly, the perceived threat is not there.

I meant die-hard Quebecers who go ape-shit if someone speaks a language other than French in their presence, burns and/or steals Canadian/other country flags from lawns, refuse to give Canadian flags to veterans, hate immigrants coming to their "country", go ape-shit when "Anglos go home" is in English and not French, beat up kids for being Anglos, etc.

THAT is what I meant by die-hard although I guess I should've used extremist instead.

[harls]

I agree that businesses in Wakefield are pretty good about serving you in French, but I don't think I met one french person there the time I stayed at a b&b.

the weirdest thing for me was at a resto called "Chez Eric", the waitress was anglo and insisted on serving me in french, so I went along with it.

the owner of the b&b couldn't speak french at all, but at the beginning she tried her hardest.. my wife seemed to appreciate the effort.. sometimes that's all it takes.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

:previous: I know the people who work/own the Tulipe Noire in Wakefield. THey are Anglos. :haha:

[Acajack]

I was trying to have a civilized discussion about this topic but I fear it may not be possible.

I’ve never heard anyone in Quebec complain of people speaking another language, other than for the very notable exception of English, which many people feel (rightly or wrongly), has been imposed on them historically or is still even imposed on them to some degree today.

Extremists exist everywhere, not just on the "other side" you know. I was roughed up on more than a few occasions by anglo kids in the "rest of Canada" for being a francophone and my francophone elementary school principal even got the shit kicked out of him by a large gang of *10-year-old* anglo kids when I was growing up in Alta Vista. He showed up the next day at school with two black eyes and his arm in a sling!

[p_xavier]

I was trying to have a civilized discussion about this topic but I fear it may not be possible.

I’ve never heard anyone in Quebec complain of people speaking another language, other than for the very notable exception of English, which many people feel (rightly or wrongly), has been imposed on them historically or is still even imposed on them to some degree today.

Extremists exist everywhere, not just on the "other side" you know. I was roughed up on more than a few occasions by anglo kids in the "rest of Canada" for being a francophone and my francophone elementary school principal even got the shit kicked out of him by a large gang of *10-year-old* anglo kids when I was growing up in Alta Vista. He showed up the next day at school with two black eyes and his arm in a sling!


Having lived in QC for 7 years, I can assure you that racism is indeed part of the culture. I have arabic descent, and you should see how people treated me, and I speak perfect French. The "get back to your country" attitudes are still pretty much present. The round table on immigration right now is the best example on how intolerant people are.

Just to say I promised myself I would never be a Kebeker in my life, worst years I went through.

[Acajack]

Maybe it’s a tourist thing or maybe not, but I can tell you that Wakefield does way way better than downtown Ottawa and even the Market area on the bilingual front.

My wife and I are both very bilingual (actually I can get by in three languages and she knows four), so for us it’s not really an issue, but when you have young kids who only speak one language it really opens your eyes to how functional a place is in the other language. Without a word about it from us, our kids have already concluded that Ottawa is “la ville anglaise”.

[Acajack]

Interestingly enough, I have Arabic descent as well.

Salut cousin!

[Mille Sabords]

Maybe it’s a tourist thing or maybe not, but I can tell you that Wakefield does way way better than downtown Ottawa and even the Market area on the bilingual front.

My wife and I are both very bilingual (actually I can get by in three languages and she knows four), so for us it’s not really an issue, but when you have young kids who only speak one language it really opens your eyes to how functional a place is in the other language. Without a word about it from us, our kids have already concluded that Ottawa is “la ville anglaise”.

That's fascinating. My daughter is only 2 and a half and I mostly speak to her in Spanish, which is my mother tongue (my parents are from Argentina). My wife is a Montrealer from West Indian parents, she speaks fluent French, English and Spanish. The result is that I have a little 2-and-a-half year old who already has a pretty good command of three languages. At the end of the day, I want my kids to have the wealth of languages and I hope they'll skip past all the small-minded BS to realize how many doors that will open for them around the world. When language is not an obstacle, you don't stay mired in the petty conflicts that surrounded, you just move along and get what you want in the language you need to use to get it.

For a small country (in terms of population), we sure waste a lot of energy tearing ourselves to shreds instead of thinking big picture.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I’ve never heard anyone in Quebec complain of people speaking another language, other than for the very notable exception of English, which many people feel (rightly or wrongly), has been imposed on them historically or is still even imposed on them to some degree today.

Forgive me, but I fail to see how English is imposed on Quebec. There is the OLF, Law 101, and millions of proud Quebecers to back up French and enforce it and denounce English as they please. Quebec has a fair amount of freedom in this area given the unique history of the province.

While I fully support bilingualism, not everyone shares that view and so many residents and tourists will ask you to speak English because that is the primary language of Canada. I know it sucks but hey...

C'est la vie.

Extremists exist everywhere, not just on the "other side" you know.

I understand that and know that, but all I was offering was my definition of die-hard/extremist Quebecer. What makes you think that I do not have definitions for other suck people across this country of ours and around the world?

I was roughed up on more than a few occasions by anglo kids in the "rest of Canada" for being a francophone and my francophone elementary school principal even got the shit kicked out of him by a large gang of *10-year-old* anglo kids when I was growing up in Alta Vista. He showed up the next day at school with two black eyes and his arm in a sling!

Monkey see, monkey do I'm afraid. It's a sad and vicious cycle; Francos beat up anglos, Anglos feel persecuted so the Anglos retaliate. Francos then feel persecuted, and so they retaliate. It's a neverending and vicious cycle that is a black mark on Canadian society.

When I was in Saguenay this summer working at the Cadet Base in CFB Bagotville, many of my Franco friends kept talking about how they love to beat up Anglo kids back home and when I got irked by this and told them that I was an Anglo, they always said(en francais of course) that I was an exception because I have hundreds of years of Quebec heritage. :haha:

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

That's fascinating. My daughter is only 2 and a half and I mostly speak to her in Spanish, which is my mother tongue (my parents are from Argentina). My wife is a Montrealer from West Indian parents, she speaks fluent French, English and Spanish. The result is that I have a little 2-and-a-half year old who already has a pretty good command of three languages. At the end of the day, I want my kids to have the wealth of languages and I hope they'll skip past all the small-minded BS to realize how many doors that will open for them around the world. When language is not an obstacle, you don't stay mired in the petty conflicts that surrounded, you just move along and get what you want in the language you need to use to get it.

For a small country (in terms of population), we sure waste a lot of energy tearing ourselves to shreds instead of thinking big picture.

:tup:

Good on you for teaching your little girl languages. My family has taught me the value of language as well. My Mom hails from a French-Canadian family and my Dad is of Jamaican/Ecuadorian/Indigenous South American descent. I speak English and semi-decent French and can understand the gist of most Spanish(so long as it's spoken slowly! :haha: ).

On top of that, living in Chinatown has given me some understanding of Chinese(Canto and Mando) and our old Japanese roommate taught me a little Japanese. :)


P.S. Milles, Argentina sucks! Ecuador could wipe the floor with you! :whip: :haha:

j/k dude. :P

[p_xavier]

Monkey see, monkey do I'm afraid. It's a sad and vicious cycle; Francos beat up anglos, Anglos feel persecuted so the Anglos retaliate. Francos then feel persecuted, and so they retaliate. It's a neverending and vicious cycle that is a black mark on Canadian society.

When I was in Saguenay this summer working at the Cadet Base in CFB Bagotville, many of my Franco friends kept talking about how they love to beat up Anglo kids back home and when I got irked by this and told them that I was an Anglo, they always said(en francais of course) that I was an exception because I have hundreds of years of Quebec heritage. :haha:

I still find it not acceptable that people in Ottawa of my age (I'm 25) don't speak French fluently. They have the same tv channels, access to a big francophone population. It's just laziness and arrogance. And don't get me started on the typical Holt Renfrew old hag buyer. The "Speak White" is pretty much present.

[movebyleap]

Isn't this a shopping mall thread? HEH HEH!!!

By the way, those precious Trainyards are now officially open! Haven't paid a visit yet, but judging from the pic in today's Citizen the place looks your run of the mill strip mall on St Joseph in Orleans. SHAME!!

[Acajack]

I definitely want my kids to speak more than one language.

But both my wife and I come from environments where the French usually spoken is a very bastardized franglais, so we wanted them to have a good basis in French before learning anything else.

Actually, English has been our “secret parental code”, but its usefulness is now wearing thin as my eldest is starting to pick up more and more English. (Contrary to Franco-Ontarian schools, they start learning English in Grade 1 in Quebec.)

The entire family will also be going abroad fairly soon and we are now using with the kids a lot of words and expressions in the language of the country where we’re going.

[Acajack]

For the record, I have quite a few members of my extended family living in Quebec. Some of them have an Arabic-sounding surname and others, through intermarriage, have French-Canadian sounding surnames. All of them speak French with the same accent as everybody else in the society in which they live and I’ve never heard of any disparity in the way the ones with the Arab-sounding names are “accepted” compared to the ones whose names sound more French.

[eemy]

Isn't this a shopping mall thread? HEH HEH!!!

By the way, those precious Trainyards are now officially open! Haven't paid a visit yet, but judging from the pic in today's Citizen the place looks your run of the mill strip mall on St Joseph in Orleans. SHAME!!

I've been noticing that trend. Conversations don't always like being restricted to the topic at the top of the screen. Its a small weakness in a model that I think has overall been quite positive. (And here I go off talking about SSP:Local in a thread about a big box development that went off-topic talking about French/English issues. Yikes!)

[movebyleap]

Since this has become a language thread, I'll join in! I am of Polish origin. My husband is French from Quebec city. Our kids speak ONLY Polish with me (and my family). They communicate ONLY in French with dad. Our "common" language when we're all togehter is usually French, but often English. Both kids speak fluent English having attended English school at a young age. They now attend a French International school in town and speak the type of French I can only dream of speaking. My older child has also been taking Spanish for 2 years and was able to get by quite handily when we spent last summer in Spain.

The point? Kids are sponges. Take advantage of it. Throw as many languages at them as you can. Open up their world!

These petty French/English language debates that we keep hearing about drive me crazy. I wish people would view learning another language as a fabulous opportunity and not as a political imposition!

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=Jamaican-Phoenix;3169189]Forgive me, but I fail to see how English is imposed on Quebec. There is the OLF, Law 101, and millions of proud Quebecers to back up French and enforce it and denounce English as they please. Quebec has a fair amount of freedom in this area given the unique history of the province.

With all due respect, it’s not really up to non-francophones to determine what is or is not being imposed upon French speakers and what needs to be done to address the issue.

It’s as if I went around saying that the situation for anglos in the Outaouais is fantastic and that they can always get everything they need in English. I speak French and use it every single place I go. So how can I say for sure that anglos never face rude or ignorant people as they go about their business, since I never personally “test” Gatineau’s anglo proficiency? Sure, I hear Gatineau sales clerks all the time bending over backwards to babble in broken English to clients. But how can I say for sure that that’s the norm? What’s telling me that for every gracious effort I see, anglos aren’t spoken to rudely or told to go back home to Ontario many times over?


Monkey see, monkey do I'm afraid. It's a sad and vicious cycle; Francos beat up anglos, Anglos feel persecuted so the Anglos retaliate. Francos then feel persecuted, and so they retaliate. It's a neverending and vicious cycle that is a black mark on Canadian society.

Yeah, well. An eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth… eventually leaves the entire world blind and toothless!

[harls]

That's fascinating. My daughter is only 2 and a half and I mostly speak to her in Spanish, which is my mother tongue (my parents are from Argentina). My wife is a Montrealer from West Indian parents, she speaks fluent French, English and Spanish. The result is that I have a little 2-and-a-half year old who already has a pretty good command of three languages. At the end of the day, I want my kids to have the wealth of languages and I hope they'll skip past all the small-minded BS to realize how many doors that will open for them around the world. When language is not an obstacle, you don't stay mired in the petty conflicts that surrounded, you just move along and get what you want in the language you need to use to get it.

For a small country (in terms of population), we sure waste a lot of energy tearing ourselves to shreds instead of thinking big picture.

Agree with you totally, Mille Sabords.

I'm a western canadian squarehead, born and bred on the farm (sw Manitoba) where the only french language I'd hear is from my high school teacher. When I moved to Montreal in 2001 I thought I'd have enough to get by.. and boy was I wrong. You really have to live, breathe and use french daily in order to gain any retention.. living in the latin quarter and Rosemont certainly helped as opposed to more 'anglo-friendly' quartiers.

My 3 month old son is going to be a bilingual wizard. my wife speaks only in french to him, I speak to him in English. he's going to a french primary school, and afterwards he can decide for himself what language of cégep he wants to attend. Knowing more than one language opens up so many opportunities!

[Acajack]

Learning different languages is of course and extraordinary personal enrichment, and I can personally attest to this.

That said, this “no worries”-type glee with respect to languages is generally the point of view of people who were born into (or assimilated to) languages and cultures that are highly dominant whose long-term continuity appears to be assured.

People who are unsure whether their unique language and culture are going to survive into even the next generation after them are not normally so gung-ho.

Before anyone says that language is just speech, it isn’t. Each language (and even variations within them such as American English vs. British English, Latin American Spanish vs. Castilian Spanish, Canadian French vs. European French, etc.) carries with it a world-view and approach to life that is unique.

Many languages have died out over the centuries and it appears as though many will continue to die out at perhaps an even faster rate than before. And each one we lose weakens the human diversity of this planet just a little bit more.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

These petty French/English language debates that we keep hearing about drive me crazy. I wish people would view learning another language as a fabulous opportunity and not as a political imposition!

:tup:

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

With all due respect, it’s not really up to non-francophones to determine what is or is not being imposed upon French speakers and what needs to be done to address the issue.

So then please enlighten me; I'd like to hear what is being imposed.

It’s as if I went around saying that the situation for anglos in the Outaouais is fantastic and that they can always get everything they need in English. I speak French and use it every single place I go. So how can I say for sure that anglos never face rude or ignorant people as they go about their business, since I never personally “test” Gatineau’s anglo proficiency? Sure, I hear Gatineau sales clerks all the time bending over backwards to babble in broken English to clients. But how can I say for sure that that’s the norm? What’s telling me that for every gracious effort I see, anglos aren’t spoken to rudely or told to go back home to Ontario many times over?

Sorry, but you kinda lost me on this one... :sly:

Are you saying that it's impossible to accurately tell what the situation is for Anglos in the Outaouais and for Francos in Ottawa? :S

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

That said, this “no worries”-type glee with respect to languages is generally the point of view of people who were born into (or assimilated to) languages and cultures that are highly dominant whose long-term continuity appears to be assured.

Well it seems to me that Quebecois is going to be an assured language adn culture. I mean, it's been around for over 400 years and shows no signs of stopping. There are even laws now to further protect a culture and language that has been around for hundreds of years.

[clynnog]

My 3 month old son is going to be a bilingual wizard. my wife speaks only in french to him, I speak to him in English. he's going to a french primary school, and afterwards he can decide for himself what language of cégep he wants to attend.

Wow Harls that is quite a child prodigy you have there. Three months old and already at french primary school.

Interesting discussion on language in Ott-Gat. I am primarily an anglo square head like you (born in the UK, probably the worst people to show an interest in/have an aptitude for learning a 2nd language), but I can understand rudimentary french (I was in Paris in 2006 and could understand that french better than QC french), and have never knowingly experienced discrimination in QC for my lack of french.

[Acajack]

So then please enlighten me; I'd like to hear what is being imposed.

I wasn’t even suggesting that that’s what I thought. All I said was that people shouldn’t make blanket statements to the effect that “Quebec already has all the powers it needs to preserve its language and culture, etc.”, when they themselves don’t know what it’s like to be a francophone.

It’s as if I went spouting off that, with all the money they receive, aboriginal communities in this country have everything they need to become prosperous… nothing more could possibly be done…. the current approach is the nec plus ultra and can’t be improved upon… blablabla.

Who am I to say things like that about aboriginal Canadians?


Sorry, but you kinda lost me on this one... :sly:

Are you saying that it's impossible to accurately tell what the situation is for Anglos in the Outaouais and for Francos in Ottawa? :

What I’m saying is that it’s unwise for someone who is not a member of a particular group to speculate on their situation unless one has walked a mile their shoes.

[agrigentum]

Now it's my turn to put my 2 cents in. Get ready for this....

I want Ottawa-Gatineau to become one separate administrative district, like the District of Columbia/Washington, governed by a single municipal government and considered to be one entity. This new district would be officially bilingual and distinct from either Ontario and Quebec in that respect.

Taaahh-ddaaahh!!!!

...Seriously though, why is ONE province, in this case Ontario, the administrative overseer of the nation's capital? It's ridiculous! Say what you want about the power of the NCC, but at the end of the day it's Ontario that's running the show...

...and we all know what city Ontario favours more!!!!!

It's bulls**t!

[Acajack]

Clynnog:

Actually, according to both the European Union and studies done by Jack Jedwab at the Centre for Canadian Studies at McGill University, people in Britain are almost twice as likely as English-Canadians to speak French. The numbers are something like 17% in the UK and 9% in English Canada (including the small Anglo-Quebecer community which is almost 70% bilingual).

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I wasn’t even suggesting that that’s what I thought. All I said was that people shouldn’t make blanket statements to the effect that “Quebec already has all the powers it needs to preserve its language and culture, etc.”, when they themselves don’t know what it’s like to be a francophone.

Conceded, but I said they had many, not all powers. Even then, I personally see no need for it, as Quebecois culture and the French language have survived for centuries. I think the culture is very strong, don't you?

And you are right, I don't know what it's like to be a Francophone, but I do know what it's like to be an Anglophone in Quebec. if it's even remotely similar to what Francophones experience, then I think I can udnerstand where you come from, but in exchange you also need ot see where I am coming from.

It’s as if I went spouting off that, with all the money they receive, aboriginal communities in this country have everything they need to become prosperous… nothing more could possibly be done…. the current approach is the nec plus ultra and can’t be improved upon… blablabla.

Who am I to say things like that about aboriginal Canadians?

That's a very good point, but can't the same be said for Anglophones?

What I’m saying is that it’s unwise for someone who is not a member of a particular group to speculate on their situation unless one has walked a mile their shoes.

Well since I'm not a Francophone, I can't fully understand that side of the argument, but I have spent the equivalent of four years of my life in La Belle Province. Is that enough of a mile, at least for an Anglo like myself?

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Now it's my turn to put my 2 cents in. Get ready for this....

I'm want Ottawa-Gatineau to become one separate administrative district, like the District of Columbia/Washington, governed by a single municipal government and considered to be one entity. This new district would be officially bilingual and distinct from either Ontario and Quebec in that respect.

Taaahh-ddaaahh!!!!

...Seriously though, why is ONE province, in this case Ontario, the administrative overseer of the nation's capital? It's ridiculous! Say what you want about the power of the NCC, but at the end of the day it's Ontario that's running the show...

...and we all know what city Ontario favours more!!!!!

It's bulls**t!

I'd support something like that where you need to be bilingual, but if the Feds were always tinkering away with us, then it would spell trouble...

[harls]

Wow Harls that is quite a child prodigy you have there. Three months old and already at french primary school.


Going..will be going to a french primary school. sorry, should have made myself clear. Hey, he could be a genius, who knows? :D

[Acajack]

Federal district:

The local government experience with the District of Columbia in the U.S. has been disastrous to say the least. The people of DC have even less representativity than if they were part of Maryland or Virginia. They complain about it constantly but no one pays any attention to them.

Apparently, the situation in Canberra is not so bad, but I believe that the Australian Capital Territory is in many ways treated as if it was its own state.

In any event, the whole Québec thing is an insurmountable stumbling block here.

[Mille Sabords]

Now it's my turn to put my 2 cents in. Get ready for this....

I want Ottawa-Gatineau to become one separate administrative district, like the District of Columbia/Washington, governed by a single municipal government and considered to be one entity. This new district would be officially bilingual and distinct from either Ontario and Quebec in that respect.

Taaahh-ddaaahh!!!!

...Seriously though, why is ONE province, in this case Ontario, the administrative overseer of the nation's capital? It's ridiculous! Say what you want about the power of the NCC, but at the end of the day it's Ontario that's running the show...

...and we all know what city Ontario favours more!!!!!

It's bulls**t!

Couldn't agree with you more. Regional Chairman Andy Haydon floated the idea about 20 years ago and, predictably, it died in the egg.

Before anyone says that language is just speech, it isn’t. Each language (and even variations within them such as American English vs. British English, Latin American Spanish vs. Castilian Spanish, Canadian French vs. European French, etc.) carries with it a world-view and approach to life that is unique.

You're bang on here Acajack. I have a Latin American cultural background and I know from having been to Spain that it's different - even the language is spoken differently. I guess in today's world, with the kind of mobility and migration we have, more and more there seems to be an overriding "world monoculture" (for better of for worse), often bearing the cultural imprint of the United States, which is where most pop-culture media is created. Even old Europe is succumbing to this. In a way, this is part of the backlash from the Middle East we are having such a hard time explaining.

As for the digression - this is a commercial retail development thread after all - yup, it's all interconnected. Makes for an interesting conversation on a Thursday afternoon.

P.S. Milles, Argentina sucks! Ecuador could wipe the floor with you!

Pobrecito Ecuador, mirà! Si querés, te traigo una Quilmes para consolarte, viejo, que la vas a necesitar. :cheers:

[clynnog]

Clynnog:

Actually, according to both the European Union and studies done by Jack Jedwab at the Centre for Canadian Studies at McGill University, people in Britain are almost twice as likely as English-Canadians to speak French. The numbers are something like 17% in the UK and 9% in English Canada (including the small Anglo-Quebecer community which is almost 70% bilingual).

I find those stats hard to believe that 17% of UK people can speak french...to what extent can they speak it. Based on my many times there and my direct relatives (none of whom I would put in the 17%), I've yet to see it. In the UK, a south asian language or now an eastern european (migrant workers) are more likely to be heard and understood than french. Based on my experiences with relatives of mine, many hold the view that the whole world should speak english.

Now back to talk about malls and retail.....

[Acajack]

I think the culture is very strong, don't you?

Pretty strong I’d say. But not as strong as other similar-sized cultures in independent countries like Sweden or even those that are minorities in multinational states like Italian and French speakers in Switzerland or French speakers in Belgium.

And you are right, I don't know what it's like to be a Francophone, but I do know what it's like to be an Anglophone in Quebec. if it's even remotely similar to what Francophones experience, then I think I can udnerstand where you come from, but in exchange you also need ot see where I am coming from.

That's a very good point, but can't the same be said for Anglophones?


The same for anglos with respect to what?


Well since I'm not a Francophone, I can't fully understand that side of the argument, but I have spent the equivalent of four years of my life in La Belle Province. Is that enough of a mile, at least for an Anglo like myself?

Yes, you’d certainly be more able than me to say what it’s like to be an anglo in Quebec.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

In any event, the whole Québec thing is an insurmountable stumbling block here.

True, but if both sides of the river are willing to create a new Province/Federal territory/State thing a la Canberra, then I say go for it. We are a democratic country after all. ;)

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Pretty strong I’d say. But not as strong as other similar-sized cultures in independent countries like Sweden or even those that are minorities in multinational states like Italian and French speakers in Switzerland or French speakers in Belgium.

I gotta diagree with you here. I believe that the Quebecois culture and language is as strong if not stronger than the palces you listed because Les Quebecois are extremely passionate about their language and culture. Solely because of that, it will be strong forever.

The same for anglos with respect to what?

Well, you kinda answered it with the following statement...

Yes, you’d certainly be more able than me to say what it’s like to be an anglo in Quebec.