Centre Mall -> The Centre on Barton

[highwater]

Finally? I've never had a problem with the Dundurn store. Best Scotch selection in the city, IMO. And the Dundas store has the nice, bright, squeaky clean suburban thing going on for people who are more comfortable in those types of surroundings (not knocking it, I go there alot, I live pretty much equidistant from the Dundurn and Dundas stores so I can take my pick), but I find the wine and scotch selections better at Dundurn than Dundas, in spite of Dundurn being the smaller store.

I don't frequent the JS store, but the lower city has certainly been well-served by Dundurn and Dundas up until now.

[oldcoote]

Jackson Square has a formidable 'King Can' selection.
Just avoid the breakfast rush.

[flar]

I mostly buy beer (ales to be exact), but I found Dundurn and Ancaster to have the best selection of beers in the city. Dundas always had the same few brands. In Ottawa, I have to go all the way to the Byward Market for something different. Unfortunately Hamilton has no equivalent of the Byward Market LCBO. But even the best LCBOs have a puny selection for beer lovers.

[highwater]

Dundas always had the same few brands.

The Dundas store seems to cater to Mac students, which probably also explains the lousy wine and scotch selections.

[SteelTown]

I miss my Westcliffe LCBO. It's now at Meadowlands.

I'm mostly a wine drinker so the Meadowlands LCBO is perfect for that.

[Jon Dalton]

If they can do this in one of the poorest areas of the city, can't the LC show downtown a little love? Jackson Square is a busy store, frequented by downtown office workers but it's horribly small with bad beer selection and zero wine selection. It'd be nice to see something like Ottawa's multi-level downtown store in Jackson - now that's a real liquor store.

On the scotch front, Jackson Square does suck but I was surprised to find the $60 Balvenie 12 year old scotch there. Great stuff.

[markbarbera]

Yes Steeltown, that's what I am looking forward at the new Barton store: finally a Vintages down here! Dundurn's selection is okay but I just can't stand how overcrowded that store is. The selection at JS is simply embarrasing.

Dundurn does have a decent scotch selection, but I find I have had to travel up to the Fennell shop to for a decent selection of Whiskey that stretches beyond the usual three option limit offered down here. The Dundas store is too far from the core for me to frequent, particularly with the dismal HSR service to it. This new location is right on the Barton route which makes for quick and easy access to a proper LCBO for downtowners like me.

[Jon Dalton]

My LCBO fantasy is that the Jackson Square location moves to the first floor of the Lister Block and is open until 10 every day.

[markbarbera]

My LCBO fantasy is that the Jackson Square location moves to the first floor of the Lister Block and is open until 10 every day.

I would love to see a full blown LCBO with Vintages locate in the groundfloor space on York vacated by the fitness centre. Would dovetail perfectly with the neighbouring Farmer's Market.

[drpgq]

The LCBO opens today

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/280026--customers-in-high-spirits-over-new-liquor-store

Finally a quality liquor store in the lower city. Hopefully it will do well enough to convince LCBO to ramp up the condition of the other lower city locations. The Jackson Square location is particularly disappointing.

I really wish they would improve Jackson Square, i.e. a bigger space. The selection is terrible.

[highwater]

Dundurn does have a decent scotch selection, but I find I have had to travel up to the Fennell shop to for a decent selection of Whiskey that stretches beyond the usual three option limit offered down here.

I guess was referring to their single malt selection. You're right their whiskey selection is pretty standard, but I've only been disappointed in their single malt selection once, when i was looking for something pretty obscure.

[highwater]

^I think you meant to post this in the Centre Mall thread.

But speaking of the breakfast rush, the Balvenie has always been a good morning Scotch.

[matt602]

The Jackson Square location desperately needs a new location within the mall or at least within the "super block". The biggest problem is the hours of course but the selection also suffers from the size of the store.

My bet is that the traffic circle store will be next on the chopping block, as it is the only remaining "old" store in the lower city, aside from Jackson. Not sure how exactly they would replace it though.

[markbarbera]

I half expected the Queenston circle store to disappear when Eastgate location opened. They may be waiting out a lease or maybe do well enough there to continue as is until a new location in that neighbourhood presents itself. A spot at the former Herbies would work, but I understand the owner has unrealistic expectations on lease value for that property. A year of vacancy may have lowered his expectations, mind you.

[bornagainbiking]

Place was packed last evening. Lots of stock but short of craft beer selection.
Parking was full in front but to park on the Metro side was empty.
To get in and out of this Mall complex is a major improvment over the Queenston/Nash corner. And all the same necessities.
Even a mark's wear.
Too bad there wasn't another movie theatre like before.
I like the place and the road traffic plan.
Just need a few more stores, maybe a Future Shop. and Rona/Home hardware. Might just need it with all the DIYs in the area.
A smaller version of Bass Pro/Cabelas. MEC type store.
:worship: :worship:

[SteelTown]

Target is coming to Centre Mall.

http://www.thespec.com/news/article/537982--target-opening-5-local-stores

[DC1983]

Target is coming to Centre Mall.

http://www.thespec.com/news/article/537982--target-opening-5-local-stores

Is this the 'destination store' we were all promised years and years ago?
..I don't think a destination store is ever coming :(

Has anyone ever been to the Colosus Plaza at Hwy-7 & Weston Rd in Vaughan? These two plazas have eerie similarities (minus good stores and a movie theatre).
Colosus Plaza (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vaughan+on&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.445866,81.123047&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Vaughan,+York+Regional+Municipality,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.786742,-79.54417&spn=0.00948,0.027981&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=43.786699,-79.5441&panoid=BlkM1vXml2qOAWtEflE7Ug&cbp=12,310.77,,0,1.93)

Centre 'Mall' (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hamilton+on&aq=&sll=43.786695,-79.544106&sspn=0.009542,0.027981&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.250329,-79.811039&spn=0.03851,0.111923&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=43.250289,-79.81095&panoid=sk3gckS3S3plX2O4MEg39A&cbp=12,60.12,,0,5.04) (ok ok, I know it's not built in this image, but it is identical to that in the Colosus link, check it out in person)

[BCTed]

Is this the 'destination store' we were all promised years and years ago?
..I don't think a destination store is ever coming :(

Has anyone ever been to the Colosus Plaza at Hwy-7 & Weston Rd in Vaughan? These two plazas have eerie similarities (minus good stores and a movie theatre).
Colosus Plaza (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vaughan+on&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.445866,81.123047&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Vaughan,+York+Regional+Municipality,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.786742,-79.54417&spn=0.00948,0.027981&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=43.786699,-79.5441&panoid=BlkM1vXml2qOAWtEflE7Ug&cbp=12,310.77,,0,1.93)

Centre 'Mall' (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hamilton+on&aq=&sll=43.786695,-79.544106&sspn=0.009542,0.027981&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.250329,-79.811039&spn=0.03851,0.111923&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=43.250289,-79.81095&panoid=sk3gckS3S3plX2O4MEg39A&cbp=12,60.12,,0,5.04) (ok ok, I know it's not built in this image, but it is identical to that in the Colosus link, check it out in person)

I don't think it was planned, but make no mistake --- Target is a destination store. Plenty of people who go shopping in the US make a point of visiting Target. It is much loved.

I do not really see the big "Colossus Plaza" resemblance and I have been to it plenty of times. There are loads of similar Power Centre-type layouts out there.

[DC1983]

I don't think it was planned, but make no mistake --- Target is a destination store. Plenty of people who go shopping in the US make a point of visiting Target. It is much loved.

I do not really see the big "Colossus Plaza" resemblance and I have been to it plenty of times. There are loads of similar Power Centre-type layouts out there.

I think that was the point I was drivin at re: "There are loads of similar Power Centre-type layouts out there."

Once Target arrives in Canada, it'll no longer become that special store ppl drive out to just for the sake of shopping at Target. Let's face it, Target is Zellers Sr.
Look at Marshalls; the Winners stores they took over in Canada made one change.. The name on the Wall.

[mishap]

Is this the 'destination store' we were all promised years and years ago?
..I don't think a destination store is ever coming :(
I'm thinking they meant Superstore or Costco (possibly Sam's Club), stores that were in the original plans, but just disappeared by the time construction began.

I was kind of hoping for some kind of entertainment or theatre complex. The old Canadian Tire is just sitting there waiting for someone to use it.

[markbarbera]

I think there might be confusion over what the term 'destination store' means. It does not infer unique concept, but simply means a retail type that will motivate large numbers of shoppers to visit the site. Canadian Tire and Zellers are destination stores, as are the liquor store and Metro to a lesser degree. Not because they are unique, but they are the kind of shop that drives regular repeat visits to the entire site.

Having said that, Target is an ideal destination store as it also happens to be new to the market and has a high level of anticipation surrounding its arrival. Given that there will be a six month renovation and possible expansion to the Zellers, and that Target's product mix varies considerably from existing department stores in the market, this news is going to be a catalyst to completion of this site. I notice there construction has already started on three more new buildings on the site.

And mishap I continue to hear rumblings about a theatre complex working on inking a deal for a location at the site. Nothing solid just rumor. I would love for that to happen.

[DC1983]

I'm thinking they meant Superstore or Costco (possibly Sam's Club), stores that were in the original plans, but just disappeared by the time construction began.

I was kind of hoping for some kind of entertainment or theatre complex. The old Canadian Tire is just sitting there waiting for someone to use it.

I think a multi-plex theatre would fit in awesomely w/ that Corner (N/E, Ottawa/Barton) so long as it's done in proper urban design form.. and judging by the allowances on 'The Centre on Barton' I have Zero faith this would ever happen (not to mention that new multi-plexes aren't really being built anywhere.. *sigh*)

IDK but you guys, but as a shopper in the preferred demographic, I don't find Target, RCSS or Costco/Sam'sClub as a destination store. I would consider Ikea a destination store. A new movie theatre in a part of the City that has none would be a destination draw.
..An American discount retail outlet whose business plan is identical to that of Zellers when there will be at least 3 same stores in the same City (dozens w/in the same region) is NOT a destination store!
Who's going to choose Centre over Clappisons, or Rymal or whichever other Zellers have been pegged? No One.. they will go to which is closer; hence NOT a destination store!

Edit: Also let me add an Apple Store would be a destination store. Abercrombie&Fitch/Hollister would be a destinaiton store. A Co-Ed H&M would have been a destination store had Limeridge not upgraded recently. etc etc etc

[markbarbera]

From businessdictionary.com (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/destination-store.html):

Destination Store
Definition
Giant retail store combining the attributes of several categories of stores: the size of a mass merchandiser, the variety and scope of a department store, and the low prices of a discount store. So called because consumers are willing to travel a good distance to shop in it.

So, by definition, let's revisit various stores mentioned to determine which are destination stores:

Target - yes
RCSS - yes
Costco - yes
Sam's club - yes (but n/a here as they ceased Canadian operations in 2009)
Walmart - yes
Ikea -yes
Theatre complex - no (although theatre complexes do mimic the draw of a destination store)
Zellers - yes (while it is still around)
Canadian Tire - yes
Apple Store - no
Abercrombie and Fitch - no
Hollister - no
H&M - yes (to a certain degree)

[DC1983]

Hmmm imagine. I woulda thought a 'destination store' would be a store which drew ppl to it's destination as it is a store that one cannot find in several other neighbourhoods w/in the same City.

Looks like developers bamboozled Hamilton once again!

Can anyone look up the definition of a streetwall?

[markbarbera]

Well, after that last post, I am harkened to recall the poet Thomas Gray...

Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.

[DC1983]

Remember when this project was delayed for months as developers claimed to have been working on a 'better' streetwall due to public outcry? More lip service? Amen! (the plans clearly did NOT change from the original sketch which was itself sketchy since it didn't show doors on bldgs)

Do they have any clue what a street wall is? Does Sam Merulla? Do City Planners?

I have a couple friends in this neighbourhood, some who moved for the cheaper housing stock, some for Ottawa St itself.. the only thing anyone likes about this development is the Metro grocery store (which btw was always a staple, err, 'Destination Store').

Meh.. whatev. If ppl are satisfied w/ mediocrity, I feel for you. Must be a boring life. How dare I dream for something better for this City!

[LikeHamilton]

Demolition has started on the old Canadian Tire Store at “The Centre on Barton” (aka The Centre Mall). This is the last of the original buildings that where built for the original “Greater Hamilton Shopping Centre”. This started out as a Loblaws store until (I believe) the 80’s.

Redcliff Realty web site only shows a new 80,000 sq ft store on this site and without a tenant. That looks to be about a 1/3 bigger building then the old CTC store.

New stores being added are Mr Big & Tall, Tootsies Shoes, Ardene, Bonnie Togs, Reitmans, Ricki’s, Nygard and a Tim Hortons against Kenilworth with a log drive through.

Also from Redcliff

SEVEN NEW TARGET ASSIGNMENTS FOR REDCLIFF SITES
01 June, 2011

Target Canada Corporation has selected an initial seven Redcliff Realty Group shopping centre sites for transition from Zellers outlets to Target stores by the end of 2013. The properties, located in Ontario, British Columbia and Quebec are:

• Centre on Barton, 1211 Barton Street East, Hamilton, ON

[DC1983]

I noticed a Wild Wings in this 'updated' site plan for the Redcliffe Management website: http://www.redcliffrealty.com/leasing/leasingPlans/Hamilton%20(The%20Centre%20on%20Barton).Dec-10%20-%20Mar%2007%2011%20USE.pdf

Is this also new? I don't remember seeing it the last time I was at Popeyes! lol

[markbarbera]

Wild Wings is not there yet - it's going to be across from Boston Pizza in the same block as the Shoppers Drugmart, but they haven't started construction on that building yet.

[SteelTown]

They have a site plan for a new 88,000 sq ft building at Barton/Ottawa, which is about the same size of the Canadian Tire building.

[DC1983]

They have a site plan for a new 88,000 sq ft building at Barton/Ottawa, which is about the same size of the Canadian Tire building.

Hmm.. Movie Theatre? *crosses fingers very hard*
(I'm assuming it'll be a generic BigBox retailer).

Has anyone heard any positive feedback on this project? Everyone I talk to (urbanist or not) HATES it!

[SteelTown]

I can't tell based on the plan but it does include 776 parking spots for the building.

It has three loading docks so that would suggest it's not a theatre.

[markbarbera]

The footprint and positioning of one entrance and multiple exits at various points does support the idea of a multiplex cinema. New SilverCity Hamilton Mountain has a very similar footprint include loading dock facilities.

[bigguy1231]

At that size it might also be a Home Depot.

[markbarbera]

The possibility of a home improvement store crossed my mind too, but with a relatively new Home Depot at Centennial I would be surprised by another location here. I could see Rona possibly relocating here from their Parkdale location, although there isn't significant space for lumber.

The quantity of exits hints at a facility that requires a design to accommodate egress of a large number of people, which is why I am thinking theatre complex. Also, I do remember the developer mentioning a need to modify land use zoning for that site, so that hints at something outside of retail (seeing as retail was already zoned for the site).

As an aside, AMC is looking to expand their Canadian presence and doesn't have a presence in our market area. Just saying.

[DC1983]

I checked out the site plan on Redcliffe's website (http://www.redcliffrealty.com/leasing/leasingPlans/Hamilton%20(The%20Centre%20on%20Barton).Dec-10%20-%20Mar%2007%2011%20USE.pdf). The new building looks like a Home Depot, especially by looking at the front entrance.
That rectangular box, where Harveys/Second Cup is usually located.
Edit: Also, the western portion of the block looks to be a large outdoor garden centre, again, like Home Depot. <---- Lame!
EDIT: Check out this newer Home Depot and tell me it doesn't resemble the site plan: Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=OAKVILLE&hl=en&ll=43.399589,-79.748755&spn=0.001239,0.003498&sll=43.229977,-79.944007&sspn=0.002486,0.006995&t=h&z=19)
I just looked up the newer Rona mega-centre in Grimsby, and the floor-plan is identical. So it could be either or.

[bigguy1231]

The only reason I suggested Home Depot is that it would be a good fit in that location. The lower city, meaning the older part of the city is underserviced when it comes to the larger home improvement centres. Below the escarpment, there is nothing between Dundas and Parkdale Ave. on a large scale. This location is about as close as they can get to a central location in the lower city.

[hammertime]

Three days ago I told a friend about this building and we entertained several ideas as to what this is. On friday where he works they announced that
WAL-MART bought the land. So it is going to be a WAL-MART-awesome!:)

Also I heard that the vacant space between Staples and Dollerama may be a
Winners clothing store.:)

[SteelTown]

Guess a Wal Mart would work.

The Wal Mart at Eastgate is suppose to relocate. But there's aleeady a grocery store at Centre, Metro.

[BCTed]

Guess a Wal Mart would work.

The Wal Mart at Eastgate is suppose to relocate. But there's aleeady a grocery store at Centre, Metro.

There is also already a discount department store at the Centre (Zellers/Target) and I believe that Wal-Mart works exclusively with SmartCentres on new developments. I understand that the Eastgate Wal-Mart is still on track to move north of the Home Depot on Centennial.

With all due respect to hammertime's friend, and in the absence of any additional information, I doubt that a Wal-Mart will be moving to the Centre.

[SteelTown]

Well let's list what it could be based on the size and location

Rona is what I'm betting since there's already a Home Depot and Lowes in the area
Wal Mart
Theatre
Costco
Superstore would have been great but that won't happen

That's all I can think of.

[Northern Stroll]

Rona would be good.. the other one is not much good for anything.
HOPE it's not a Costco
Winner's would be nice.
Walmart would be nice as well.
Theater would be great!

Guess we just have to wait and see :shrug:

[mattgrande]

I'm guessing it won't be a theatre simply because there was a theatre in Centre Mall less than a decade ago (I think? My memory's a bit fuzzy)

[SteelTown]

So the possibilities are limited, either:

A hardware and home improvement retailer
A Wal-Mart
A theatre
A wholesale store

[mishap]

So the possibilities are limited, either:

A hardware and home improvement retailer
Probably too small for Home Depot and Lowes, though Rona builds in many different sizes.
A Wal-Mart
It would be the smallest one in the city (given the upcoming move from Eastgate), and a good 25,000 sq ft smaller than the Zellers (to be Target) next door.
A theatre
Bigger than most Silver City locations, but about the same size as AMC Whitby...
A wholesale store
Small for a Costco. Even small by their smaller-store standards.

This is assuming they stick around the 88,000 sq ft shown in the plan.

[lax94]

On the site plan, it shows the new building is a walmart

[SteelTown]

Yes, it is indeed a Wal-Mart. They just updated the site plan.

http://www.redcliffrealty.com/leasing/leasingPlans/Hamilton%20(The%20Centre%20on%20Barton).July-11%20USE.pdf

Thanks for letting us know lax94 and welcome!

[SteelTown]

http://www.thespec.com/news/business/article/572768--another-wal-mart-for-hamilton

[markbarbera]

That's a surprising move, considering the proximity of the new Wal-Mart planned for Centennial Pkwy & QEW. The footprint is about the same as the new U. James Wal-Mart so I guess the layout will be similar.

I must say I am disappointed it isn't a theatre, but as Mishap pointed out earlier, 88,000 square feet of space was a bit large for a theatre (except for AMC multiplexes). It's interesting to see Target and Wal-Mart co-existing here. With those two destination retail locations, specialty retail will be relatively easy to attract for the smaller retail spaces on the site.

Call me a Pollyanna, but I'll still hold out hope for a theatre here. There still is that 27,000 square foot building planned for the north-west corner, but that has a "Future Shop"-ish feel to it. I would kill for a more centrally located modern theatre complex (northwest corner of Caroline and Main would be perfect!)

[thistleclub]

I'd love to see another theatre in the lower city, but I think it's pretty unlikely from a major chain. The Cineplex Galaxy/Famous Players merger really put the kibosh in smaller theatres in favour of ever-larger Silvercities and Collossi, and AMC hasn't been much better – with the exception of their Yonge-Dundas franchise and maybe the one in that horrid commercial condo jungle off Hurontario, I think all of their Ontario cinemas are located in big box developments within spitting distance of a 400-series highway. Empire is the only group that seems capable of breaking the stalemate, and even then they've cannibalized holdings from the CG/FP merger, such as Jackson Square. The Centre Mall redo took that theatre off the table, so if they were to open another location in Hamilton I'd imagine it'd be the old Upper James cinema. Then again, Hollywood is really good at commercial reinvention, so maybe they'll return to smaller inner-city movie houses one day.

[realcity]

My favourite theatre is Jackson and I will always go there. Cuz I walk around and do stuff before and after. It sucks that the Jackson underground parking -- the new mgmt -- has got rid of the parking validation.

And I wish they'd stop calling the Centre Power Center a "mall". It's not a "mall" anymore as we have come to know malls. They blew it up for this disaster. I can't ever find my way in or out of there. And there is a stupid no left turn from Kenilworth onto Barton, not many cars are coming from north of Barton, it should have a left turn. So you're left having to rip down the residential street just south of Barton to turn left, or continue north through Barton and have that one entrance at Cdn Tire. Then drive an entire block through a parking lot to get to the Metro, LCBO or now that Walmart.

[bornagainbiking]

For far too long it has been a mass exodus from the lower city. Every one driving out to the Meadowlands to shop.
So just think, if you build it they will come.
First it was the Meadowlands and now look at all the housing and homes that sprung up.
Now we have the Rymal/20/Centennial parkway shopping and look at the homes up there not to mention Binbrook which was mentioned as one of the fastest growing communities.
So with the Centre on Barton maybe it will provide a missing link. I too would like a theatre, but think a Rona or home hardware or a FutureShop for the locals would be handy as we will see a rise in population. About time for the East end. With the Farmers market move into the area and Ottawa street growing it will ALL grow.
As a side bar want to see a nice mall I was pleased with the MicMac Mall in Dartmouth. Lime Ridge seems so lame.

[thistleclub]

As a side bar want to see a nice mall I was pleased with the Mic Mac Mall (http://www.micmacmall.com/) in Dartmouth. Lime Ridge seems so lame.

Ivanhoé Cambridge (http://www.ivanhoecambridge.com/splashscreen-en-CA.html) also owns/manages Burlington’s Mapleview Centre (http://www.mapleviewcentre.com/), which is arguably the GHA’s premier retail centre. Wikipedia tells me that they underwent $64m in renos in the last 4 years; that has helped it remain an attractive spot for top shops (recently Aéropostale (http://www.aeropostale.com/), Coach (http://www.coach.com/), Sephora (http://www.sephora.com/) and Kiehl's (http://www.kiehls.com/)). To put that in perspective, LRM – a Cadillac Fairview holding – underwent a $43m reno between 2000-2002, with another $4m going into parking and roof updates a couple of years ago. Either of them are about a 20 minute bus ride from Jackson Square.

BTW, Jackson Square opened just 11 years before Lime Ridge Mall (http://www.limeridge.ca/en/Pages/default.aspx); JS Phase 2 (the western portion including 110 King West) was completed four years before LRM opened; the city-run Central Library and the Farmers Market (which recently underwent a $14m combined reno) opened the year before LRM did. Anyone care to guess how many millions Yale Properties has pumped into improvements to JS since 2000?

[BCTed]

There is also already a discount department store at the Centre (Zellers/Target) and I believe that Wal-Mart works exclusively with SmartCentres on new developments. I understand that the Eastgate Wal-Mart is still on track to move north of the Home Depot on Centennial.

With all due respect to hammertime's friend, and in the absence of any additional information, I doubt that a Wal-Mart will be moving to the Centre.

With the additional information, I no longer doubt that a Wal-Mart will be moving to the Centre.

[SteelTown]

Walmart will complement Ottawa Street, say vendors

http://www.thespec.com/news/business/article/685510--walmart-will-complement-ottawa-street-say-vendors

Another Walmart is coming to Hamilton.

The U.S. mega chain, the largest retailer in the world, has taken out a city building permit for a $7.7 million project at the corner of Barton and Ottawa streets — The Centre on Barton Street big box mall.

Where the appearance of a Walmart has often caused shivers of fear to run up the spines of small local merchants, the latest store is a matter of “indifference” for the executive-director of the Ottawa Street Business Improvement Area.

“It’s not going to hurt us, in fact anything that drives more traffic to that intersection can help us,” Patty Despinic said. “What our stores sell you can’t get at Walmart.”

Once known primarily as a hub of fabric stores, Ottawa Street’s offerings have diversified in recent years to attract antiques dealers who find trendy Locke Street too expensive for them.

“Walmart doesn’t have antiques or specialty fabrics of exotic food,” Despinic said. “They don’t run award-winning festivals either.”

The new store, all 8,255 square metres of it, will take up the space formerly occupied by Canadian Tire.

The Walmart project is one of several million dollar commercial-industrial projects getting under way in the city.

The latest report of building permit figures from city hall shows permits issued for a $2 million expansion of the LIUNA Gardens banquet centre in Stoney Creek, a $1.5 million project by Beverly Greenhouses in Flamborough and a $1.3 million expansion for E.D. Smith in Winona.

[SteelTown]

KENILWORTH AVE INVESTMENT INC. / REDCLIFF REALTY MGMT CORPORATION
Permit # 12-103415-00 R9
1211 BARTON ST E HAMILTON
Super Market
10961.00 sq ft
$4,575,500.00

I'm guessing this is the Wal-Mart

[mishap]

KENILWORTH AVE INVESTMENT INC. / REDCLIFF REALTY MGMT CORPORATION
Permit # 12-103415-00 R9
1211 BARTON ST E HAMILTON
Super Market
10961.00 sq ft
$4,575,500.00

I'm guessing this is the Wal-Mart
6.5 million for 11,000 square feet. Something's not right. Way too small. Square metres, maybe?

Wait, just Googled the address. 1211 belongs to Zellers. So this permit might be for Target conversion, and possibly some added space.

[mishap]

And confirmed:

From the city's building permit lookup page (http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartments/PlanningEcDev/Divisions/BuildingServices/permitSearch.htm):

"Alterations to the existing 'ZELLERS' retail store, to convert the space into a 'TARGET'. Alterations include: selective demolition, replacement exit doors, renovated washrooms and staff & ancillary spaces. "

[matt602]

Geez, they just buit the thing... what, 3 years ago? What a waste. Selective demolition and new exit doors...

[mishap]

Geez, they just buit the thing... what, 3 years ago? What a waste. Selective demolition and new exit doors...
What's crazy is that the layout of this Zellers resembles a few of the Target stores I've seen. A few departments are pretty much in the same location. Even the entrance and washrooms are similar, if not laid out exactly the same. And it's still taking four million dollars to change it over? I can't imagine how much it would take to convert an older format Zellers or Towers.

[Marquisse]

That amount is considered "cosmetic" in today's market when it concerns anchor spaces, at least from their perspective. Also, in the due diligence phase, Target opted out of many of the older stores still in existence and I am aware of one instance where they were coaxed into taking all of the Zellers stores in one landlord's portfolio when the landlord sweetened the deal and agreed to retrofit the Zellers space for them in one particularly (a B to C class Shopping Centre) old store.

[markbarbera]

KENILWORTH AVE INVESTMENT INC. / REDCLIFF REALTY MGMT CORPORATION
Permit # 12-103415-00 R9
1211 BARTON ST E HAMILTON
Super Market
10961.00 sq ft
$4,575,500.00

I'm guessing this is the Wal-Mart

The WalMart permit was issued last month

Building Permit 11-121934-00

Status: Issued

Retail Complex/Plaza/Mall New Construction

To construct a sprinklered 8255m² retail store "WALMART SUPERCENTRE" at the Centre Complex.

1115 BARTON ST. E Bldg Z HAMILTON ON L8H 4A7

Construction Value $7,751,600.00

[LikeHamilton]

I was by the new Wallmart site today. Looks like all of the steel structure is up and about 75% of the roof is on. It looks like it will be ready for a fall opening.

[markbarbera]

While out and about this weekend, I noticed a couple of "coming soon" signs on empty lots here. Marshalls is going into the new building to be built next to Metro, and The Brick is going in a building to be built between Zellers/Target and Staples.

[RaginRonic]

Is there any pics of what The Centre on Barton looks like now?

[matt602]

http://raisethehammer.org/article/1678/way_side_or_the_tao_of_lunch_

There's a few there from a couple of weeks ago, I believe. Just a generic big box complex with a sea of parking in the middle. The "old" Zellers is now gutted and being turned into a Target. The Walmart looks almost finished.

[CaptainKirk]

Just a generic big box complex with a sea of parking in the middle. The "old" Zellers is now gutted and being turned into a Target. The Walmart looks almost finished.

And ugly too. Just did a walk from the Active Green & Ross on Ottawa ST N., over to the Tim Horton's in the mall by Kenilworth.

Spent the vast majority of my time walking on asphalt. This is not pedestrian friendly at all. Just a vast sea of asphalt with the occasional (cracked) sidewalk, some of which just end nowhere forcing you to step out into traffic.

Terrible, terrible design. Saw more than a few older locals trying to walk to certain stores, some with canes, others with small carts, most of whom were cutting across parking spaces and roadways.

They blew it.

[SteelTown]

Target opens tomorrow.

[LikeHamilton]

Giant Tiger
New Store Openings
1211 Barton Street East Hamilton, ON
October 13, 2018

Apparently this is the ex Target store.

[LRTfan]

LOL...I love the last 2 posts in this discussion. Nothing in between.

[movingtohamilton]

LOL...I love the last 2 posts in this discussion. Nothing in between.

Ha!

This dump of a "mall" is going from bad to worse.

[NortheastWind]

Ha!

This dump of a "mall" is going from bad to worse.

Why do you say that? It's a terrible layout but it's certainly not a dump.

Giant Tiger is a Canadian success and Goodlife Fitness's Fit4Less is moving in too.
Spec Article (https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8092442-giant-tiger-moving-into-abandoned-target-at-hamilton-s-centre-on-barton/)

[movingtohamilton]

Why do you say that? It's a terrible layout but it's certainly not a dump.

Giant Tiger is a Canadian success and Goodlife Fitness's Fit4Less is moving in too.
Spec Article (https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8092442-giant-tiger-moving-into-abandoned-target-at-hamilton-s-centre-on-barton/)

This isn't a mall. It's a suburban power centre dumped into an urban setting. Giant Tiger is just one more discount store. I'm very surprised that Dollarama doesn't have an exclusive deal with the power centre owners.

[LRTfan]

This place is a total joke.
Cities that don't have their heads up their backsides are transforming malls and box stores into proper urban hoods....Hamilton can never do this tho because height NIMBYs

http://torontostoreys.com/2016/09/galleria-mall-redevelopment-a-model-approach/

[king10]

Thought id come here to see postive posts about a canadian success story filling the void left by a failed American entrant..... i was wrong

Much rather have a canadian retailer like giant tiger move in rather than wal mart. Also goodlife moving there is welcome news. The area needs a viable gym option.

[movingtohamilton]

Thought id come here to see postive posts about a canadian success story filling the void left by a failed American entrant..... i was wrong

Much rather have a canadian retailer like giant tiger move in rather than wal mart...

Thing is, brands exploit nationalism because it improves the bottom line. Even when the ownership changes they continue to milk it, like Tim Hortons, now owned by a private-equity firm in Brazil.

So forgive me if I don't care who owns Giant Tiger. I'll bet their customers don't care either. It's a private company.

[king10]

Thing is, brands exploit nationalism because it improves the bottom line. Even when the ownership changes they continue to milk it, like Tim Hortons, now owned by a private-equity firm in Brazil.

So forgive me if I don't care who owns Giant Tiger. I'll bet their customers don't care either. It's a private company.

I care. Its privately owned by a canadian unlike tim hortons. . You’re forgiven for not caring though.

[ScreamingViking]

I've seen a few malls touted as "Canada's first" -- perhaps this was the first that was not completely enclosed?

I remember most of the Centre Mall from the late 1970s onward quite well.


Canada’s first Mall: 75,000 were there when shopping history was made in Hamilton

The Hamilton Spectator
Sat., July 10, 2021

https://www.thespec.com/life/local-history/spec175/2021/07/10/canadas-first-mall-75000-were-there-when-shopping-history-was-made-in-hamilton.html

https://images.thestar.com/WfvMmnihmBKH0mEgo3hDPxlan5k=/1200x795/smart/filters:cb(1626109234691)/https://www.thespec.com/content/dam/thespec/life/local-history/spec175/2021/07/10/canadas-first-mall-75000-were-there-when-shopping-history-was-made-in-hamilton/mall_1960.jpg

https://images.thestar.com/zw9nglJgIno_BmtTez7FkGNSk0Y=/968x730/smart/filters:cb(1625867162878)/https://www.thespec.com/content/dam/thespec/life/local-history/spec175/2021/07/10/canadas-first-mall-75000-were-there-when-shopping-history-was-made-in-hamilton/mall_sears.jpg

https://images.thestar.com/8UwT39axtC-k-7a9X7RDy6g9g4o=/968x730/smart/filters:cb(1625867162903)/https://www.thespec.com/content/dam/thespec/life/local-history/spec175/2021/07/10/canadas-first-mall-75000-were-there-when-shopping-history-was-made-in-hamilton/mall_walkway.jpg

In 1955, Hamilton became home to the first mall in Canada where you could shop year round.

The official opening of the Greater Hamilton Shopping Centre (now The Centre on Barton) took place on Oct. 26, 1955, although the mall was not yet complete, three years after the Greater Hamilton Shopping Centre Inc. acquired the property that originally housed the Hamilton Jockey Club.

Shopping history in Hamilton was made when about 75,000 people came to look around the new mall on the day it opened.

Because walkways to protect shoppers from the elements made year-round shopping possible, many top-of-the-line retailers were eager to be involved. Cost of the completed Shopping Centre was more than $18 million.

The first large retailer to sign on was Simpsons-Sears with a two-storey building containing 200,000 square feet of floor space.

In 1954, there were more than 300 applications for space in the shopping centre.

One of the biggest selling features for the centre was that it had parking spaces for 7,000 cars.

The Dominion Store officially opened April 21, 1955. It was the seventh Dominion Store in Hamilton and the 13th store in Eastern Canada constructed since 1949. This store had 17 checkout counters, the largest number of any Dominion store in Hamilton.

Floor space of the various shopping units was nearly 500,000 square feet. When the main shopping section was completed, it had about 60 stores.

There was a rubber-tired trolley system for conveying the shoppers around the 41-acre shopping area. Fares were 10¢ or there were trading tickets that were issued by the merchants.

The Farmers’ Market at the Centre began operations in June 1956 in the parking area to the north of the mall.

For the 10th anniversary of the Greater Hamilton Shopping Centre‘s opening, a $1-million renewal project was announced in June 1965.

In October 1972, plans to completely enclose the mall were unveiled at a cost of $2 million. It was shortly after this renovation that the name of the mall was officially changed to Centre Mall.

In January 1983, 44 new stores were added at a cost of $10.5 million which would include a new K-Mart department store and the newly renovated and expanded Mall Cinemas which became the largest cinemas in Canada in terms of seating capacity, with 2,400 seats in eight houses.

In October 2001, the Centre Mall Cinemas closed when their lease was terminated.

In September 2003, the mall was put up for sale and was bought by the Canada Pension Plan (CPP) Investment Board and Osmington Inc.

In 2005, a $100-million plan to rejuvenate the 50-year-old facility was announced.

In May 2006, it was announced that the old mall would be demolished for a new urban power centre.

[matt602]

"urban" power centre.

riiiight.

[TheRitsman]

"urban" power centre.

riiiight.

Ironically Centre Mall is the blight much of Hamilton tried to remove in the late 20th century.

Centre on Barton is a failure of a city to propose something phased that has real potential. I was glad to see that the entire Centre on Barton is zoned for high density. My hope would be that the entire lot be proposed with a planned community, in phased construction, similar to Shoppers World.

[ScreamingViking]

All those retail "centres" need a re-think.

The experience alone is awful, to me anyway. To just visit one store can be frustrating, mostly the driving and parking and general chaos of wayfinding amidst other would-be shoppers, but also the complete banality (Ancaster is among the worst for this locally, IMO... east mountain is newer but will vie for the title within 10 years). Try to visit more than one outlet, and the frustration seems to increase exponentially. :gaah:

A mall isn't much better, but it's still better than these, and I'd argue enclosed malls have more redevelopment potential as central "spines" connecting other residential, commercial and even institutional/cultural new builds on the surrounding seas of parking.

These places could all make much better use of the land, as mixed-use 'neighbourhoods' that still provide the retail offerings but also other amenities and places to live and work. I guess one saving grace is that the individual store buildings are cheap and easy to knock down.

[GreatTallNorth2]

All those retail "centres" need a re-think.



^ We should be building more "town centre" developments that are pedestrian friendly. Park your car (or get there via transit) and the layout is designed for people to walk from shop to shop. So many of these "Smart" Centres are Dumb because they make people drive from store to store because they are so spread out.

[matt602]

What really ticks me off was how much Sam Merulla gushed over the project when it was being constructed and how he promised it'd be some kind of revolutionary, urban design with tons of walkability features and street facing stores. What we got of course was literally the opposite. Just part of the wonderful legacy he has left on the East end.

[ScreamingViking]

Yep. Merulla... :rolleyes:

Here's a blast from the past. Catalyst? Sure Sam... you have no idea what you're talking about, except that you were happy money was being invested in a development in your ward that you could claim as progress.

Ottawa St. has carried on based on its own merits, with its own unique retail and restaurant and service offerings. Kenilworth has a long way to go and IMO still hadn't bottomed out at the time of the article below, but I can see it reviving eventually. And Barton hasn't benefited one bit from this, aside from having the ass ends of brand new beigey buildings and logos along the block.


New 'Centre' mall catalyst for neighbourhood change

The Hamilton Spectator
Mon., Sept. 20, 2010

https://www.thespec.com/business/2010/09/20/new-centre-mall-catalyst-for-neighbourhood-change.html

Shiny new big box stores sprouting on the site of one of Hamilton's oldest shopping malls are being credited with helping to spark a revival of their neighbourhood.

Now known as The Centre on Barton Street, the former Centre Mall is being turned into a new commercial mecca of up to 28 large, free-standing stores. It's all part of a $100 million redevelopment project.

"This is the biggest inner city development in Canada," said Ward 4 Councillor Sam Merulla. "It's becoming the catalyst for redevelopment on Ottawa Street, and may do the same thing for Kenilworth Avenue as well."

Under the management of Redcliffe Realty Management Inc., the Centre is being rebuilt to a planned 750,000 square feet of leasable area over the 28 buildings. Hamilton's first enclosed mall -- and at one time the largest shopping centre in Canada -- the Centre fell on hard times in the late 1990s with competition from much larger Eastgate Square. Movement to the suburbs, the loss of manufacturing jobs in Hamilton's east end and the advent of big box malls such as Ancaster's Meadowlands hurt even more.

Serious decline started in 1998 when an anchor tenant, Kmart, closed in a restructuring. In 2001 the movie theatre lease was terminated, and by 2002 the entire property was up for sale, with rumours that developers were looking at the 74 acres for a public housing development.

By 2005, the property was under new ownership of a company called Kenilworth Investments Inc., with a vision of a different future and the dollars to make that happen. Demolition of the former mall started in 2006.

"It's coming along very well," said Don Burton, executive vice-president of Redcliffe. "We're probably 70 to 75 per cent through the project now."

To date, about 15 of the site's 28 potential buildings have been finished. Most recently, the new food court building was opened, including a small community meeting space. A liquor store is expected to be finished this year, and an enormous Dollarama store is under construction beside the Canadian Tire outlet.

Also open now are Zellers, Shoppers Drug Mart, Rogers, The Source, Optical Factory, TD Canada Trust, The Beer Store, Bell, Scotiabank, Hollywood Hair Design, Desjardins Credit Union, Boston Pizza, Centre Mall Dental and a new Metro supermarket.

Construction of the rest is expected to take another 18 months.

Burton said the original plan was for the project to be finished by the end of this year, but the economic slump that began in 2008 impacted work considerably.

"The downturn in the economy certainly slowed things down pretty significantly, but it's coming along nicely now," he said.

Replacing the tired, 50-year-old structure has had an unintended, but highly welcome, effect on the neighbourhood, Merulla said. Property values around the site have risen and a troubled apartment building in the north-west corner of the property has been turned into condominiums.

"That building used to be one of the biggest crack houses in Hamilton, but now it's condos, and people are taking pride in the building," he said. "The Centre was a tired old mall that was ready to be redeveloped. Now, in some cases, we're talking about property values that have doubled."

At the same time, he added, the city has gained $2 million a year in revenue from the project.

When the Centre project was first proposed, some feared it would sound a death knell for neighbouring shopping areas such as Ottawa Street North. So far, said Ottawa BIA executive director Patty Despinic, that hasn't happened.

"So far the impact has been quite neutral, in part because the development isn't finished," she said.

"There have been a lot of physical changes, so there has been some benefit in terms of the image of the area.

"The best we can say right now is that time will tell the full effect, when some more of the big players move in," she added.

[matt602]

That whole article is a joke but the end part about the apartment buildings was a real laugh. A friend of mine lived in there from 2012 to 2015'ish and it was a disgusting experience for him. I believe the ownership has changed hands at least half a dozen times since this article was written.