Royal Connaught Hotel | ? | 36 fl, 33 fl, 24 fl & 13 fl | U/C

[DC83]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/theshawsphotos/cities/Stinson-Tower-Hamilton.jpg?t=1199722114

awesome!! I knew that tower would look great there!
Stinson tower, eh?? haha

[chris k]

Yeah the more modern height is suiting me better now that i see it and i think it looks great.

BTW, love how you added stinsons name on it:D
:cheers:

[SteelTown]

The Royal Connaught Hotel, 112 King Street East, Hamilton (L) – M. Adkins (Dec 13, 07)

Michael Adkins indicated that he has learned that the owners of the Royal Connaught Hotel will be filing for bankruptcy soon.

Councillor Bratina added that there are interested parties willing to purchase the property with the purpose of operating it as a hotel.

The Committee discussed the direction from its previous meeting to send a message to Council about designating the hotel and how this can be done in compliance with procedure.

[flar]

Maybe Stinson will have a chance to buy it now.

[raisethehammer]

LIUNA blows.

[matt602]

The Royal Connaught Hotel, 112 King Street East, Hamilton (L) – M. Adkins (Dec 13, 07)

Michael Adkins indicated that he has learned that the owners of the Royal Connaught Hotel will be filing for bankruptcy soon.

Councillor Bratina added that there are interested parties willing to purchase the property with the purpose of operating it as a hotel.

The Committee discussed the direction from its previous meeting to send a message to Council about designating the hotel and how this can be done in compliance with procedure.

This is definitely good news, not bad news. Screw the "consortium". They weren't getting anything done other than gutting the building and whoring it out to movie studios. Time for someone with an actual vision and the money to back it to step up.

[DC83]

The Royal Connaught Hotel, 112 King Street East, Hamilton (L) – M. Adkins (Dec 13, 07)

Michael Adkins indicated that he has learned that the owners of the Royal Connaught Hotel will be filing for bankruptcy soon.

Councillor Bratina added that there are interested parties willing to purchase the property with the purpose of operating it as a hotel.

The Committee discussed the direction from its previous meeting to send a message to Council about designating the hotel and how this can be done in compliance with procedure.

This IS good news. I wonder who or how many prospective buyers Bratina's referring to?
What are the chances that Stinson is interested???

[fastcarsfreedom]

Say "screw" the consortium all you want--in truth they did the heavy lifting on the project--gutting it, and more importantly, doing the asbestos abatement. The building is practically a clean slate--a great place for someone fresh to come in and start building. It is never good news when somoene steps in to do a major project Downtown and ends up bankrupt as a result--makes financing for subsequent ventures in the city all that much more difficult to acquire.

[raisethehammer]

screw the consortium. I'll say it again and again.
The only reason they got involved was due to promises of free public money from DiIanni. They were promised $10 million in a secret meeting with him way back when all this mess started.
They had no interest in 'doing this project'. They wanted to fatten their pockets off you and I.
I can't name my sources of course, but more than 1 person in city hall has discussed these secret meetings. LIUNA went to Fred and attempted to keep that backroom deal alive and he said 'no way'.
They're crooks and were only brought into this project by the other crooks at city hall.

[the dude]

hehehe...neat.

how much money has the city given them to date?

[DC83]

hehehe...neat.

how much money has the city given them to date?

$229,500?
http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/C9AF1835-0850-47E9-9549-166AF59E52DB/0/Apr04PED06103REVISED.pdf

[HAMRetrofit]

I doubt that organization invested a penny of their own money into the project. Financers are not going to blink an eye over this group of cronies and their incompetence. This is an opportunity for a new developer to take control of the project. Perhaps one with a proven track record with access to secure credit. Financers are not stupid, they have likely done background checks on this group and appropriately rejected them. I doubt that it has anything to do with some kind of red lining of Downtown Hamilton conspiracy theory.

[SteelTown]

The city only spent what DC pointed out.

But the group have made money from movie productions, such as the Trump movie, the Hulk, etc.

[DC83]

The city only spent what DC pointed out.

But the group have made money from movie productions, such as the Trump movie, the Hulk, etc.

There was one called "XIII" filming in the Connaught last week and throughout Jan. They were also shooting at Absinthe Louge in Int'l Village!

[raisethehammer]

I know a few property owners downtown who have had their banks COME to them and offer financing if the owner ever desires to renovate or put in new apartments etc.... downtown is slowly becoming a better investment these days. you're probably right about banks shying away from this consortium group. I wonder if they walk into a bank they way they walk into the mayors office, demanding millions of free money?

[markbarbera]

I doubt that organization invested a penny of their own money into the project.

Seeing as all they have done thus far is asbestos abatement, and the city awarded them funds to do the abatement, you are probably correct in your assumptions.

[fastcarsfreedom]

They only did asbestos abatement. Considering the costs and complexities of that process--and given that it alone has derailed renovation projects in other cities, you can't downplay the fact that this process is complete--and it's completion makes the project a heck of a lot more appealing to potential buyers/investors. That is the silver lining here--that's the point I'm trying to make. The failure of the property in the first place was not a positive, the failure of this project is in no way a positive. The hotel went into a steady decline beginning in the Joyce M. era and kept on sliding and nothing was done about it. I sincerely hope we are at a place now where investors/developers/operators are going to be lining up to make something work on the site--there are certainly enough hotel proposals on the table in the area right now to suggest that hospitality is going to be a growth area locally, something which has been a long time coming.

Having these 200+ rooms out of the already small inventory in the city has got to be harmful to HECFI, as well as driving more business travellers into Burlington and Brantford.

Di Ianni is gone--part of me wishes LIUNA would disappear too, just so I could see where the blame for everything that is wrong in the city would shift to.

[HAMRetrofit]

My point is that no one else but the city would be stupid enough to give money to that consortium. I can bet that their track record is a mile long. It has nothing to do with the property. Properties are just properties there is nothing not to trust about them. Shady business types are shady business types there is a lot not to trust. No other project has received difficulty in finding funding in Downtown Hamilton only certain individuals have.

[fastcarsfreedom]

With all do respect HAMRetrofit I'm not sure what project of a similar scale to The Royal Connaught has "easily" found financing in the recent past. If I'm missing something, jog my memory. LIUNA's track record, whether it be with LIUNA Station or their invovlement at YHM has been excellent--Lister aside.

[ihateittoo]

I wouldn't be happy if this property opening up some how effects the "education square" plan - since we know there are hotels interested already.

[LikeHamilton]

This is just all business to them. They all have more than enough money to float this project on their own but did not want to spend any of their own money. Tony Battaglia just recently sold his share of Tradeport (Hamilton Airport) to YVR Services for millions and he was already worth millions. He was President and part-owner of WestPark Developments. Mario Frankovich used to own half of AIC with Michael Lee-Chin and sold it to him for millions. He started Burgeonvest Securities Limited with his money and is now worth almost as much as Chin.
They really where not looking to spend much of their own money. They wanted to use someone else’s money and make a profit from that.

[raisethehammer]

This is just all business to them. They all have more than enough money to float this project on their own but did not want to spend any of their own money. Tony Battaglia just recently sold his share of Tradeport (Hamilton Airport) to YVR Services for millions and he was already worth millions. He was President and part-owner of WestPark Developments. Mario Frankovich used to own half of AIC with Michael Lee-Chin and sold it to him for millions. He started Burgeonvest Securities Limited with his money and is now worth almost as much as Chin.
They really where not looking to spend much of their own money. They wanted to use someone else’s money and make a profit from that.



yea, MY MONEY.
Socialism for the rich.

[markbarbera]

They only did asbestos abatement. Considering the costs and complexities of that process--and given that it alone has derailed renovation projects in other cities, you can't downplay the fact that this process is complete--and it's completion makes the project a heck of a lot more appealing to potential buyers/investors.



My point, fastcarsfreedom, was that the only thing that this consortium completed at this site was an asbestos abatement project funded entirely by a city grant and not by the consortium. In other words, the abatement was done using city money (i.e. resident taxpayers' money). Meantime, it has sat vacant and they have 'rented' the site out for several film shoots, generating income for the consortium which hasn't made it back into redevelopment in any way. Now, they will dissolve the consortium and sell off an empty structure clear of asbestos. With abatement completed, the asking price for the building can be inflated considerably and they will stand to make a fair chunk of change on the flip.

A great way to make a quick buck at the taxpayers' expense, wouldn't you say? You may feel they deserve credit for this, but I for one will not quietly allow my tax dollars to be exploited in this manner.



Di Ianni is gone--part of me wishes LIUNA would disappear too, just so I could see where the blame for everything that is wrong in the city would shift to.

C'mon, let's be fair here. No one has ever laid blame for all the city's woes on LIUNA alone - they have had lots of help doing that! However, they are principle parties in the city's two highest-profile development boondongles, and deserve to be taken to task for this.

Are you saying LIUNA doesn't deserve the critisicm they receive over their handling of Lister and Connaught? If you do feel this way, I would invite you to actually visit Hamilton some time soon and take a walk along King and James between these two buildings so you can see what we who live here have to deal with on a daily basis. Your opinion on LIUNA may change drastically if you lived in the shadow of these buildings.

[HAMRetrofit]

Lets just speculate what it cost them to do this asbestos removal. Likely four or five laborers over a two week time span at ten dollars an hour. Perhaps eight to ten grand for labor. Union fees deducted from their paycheck back into their pockets. Disposal of asbestos deposited at a landfill that they no doubt control (or 'friends' control) paying themselves for disposal. A nice two hundred grand divided four ways = thank you Hamilton taxpayers for the new bimmer. Resale of the building will earn a nice profit especially with how hot hotel space in Hamilton is becoming.

Nice control of supply and demand. Adam Smith would be proud. :cool:

Reaction of Hamilton citizens = :slob:

I welcome others to attempt recalculating this more accurately.

[Goldfinger]

My point, fastcarsfreedom, was that the only thing that this consortium completed at this site was an asbestos abatement project funded entirely by a city grant and not by the consortium. In other words, the abatement was done using city money (i.e. resident taxpayers' money). Meantime, it has sat vacant and they have 'rented' the site out for several film shoots, generating income for the consortium which hasn't made it back into redevelopment in any way. Now, they will dissolve the consortium and sell off an empty structure clear of asbestos. With abatement completed, the asking price for the building can be inflated considerably and they will stand to make a fair chunk of change on the flip.

A great way to make a quick buck at the taxpayers' expense, wouldn't you say? You may feel they deserve credit for this, but I for one will not quietly allow my tax dollars to be exploited in this manner.




C'mon, let's be fair here. No one has ever laid blame for all the city's woes on LIUNA alone - they have had lots of help doing that! However, they are principle parties in the city's two highest-profile development boondongles, and deserve to be taken to task for this.

Are you saying LIUNA doesn't deserve the critisicm they receive over their handling of Lister and Connaught? If you do feel this way, I would invite you to actually visit Hamilton some time soon and take a walk along King and James between these two buildings so you can see what we who live here have to deal with on a daily basis. Your opinion on LIUNA may change drastically if you lived in the shadow of these buildings.

Liuna is a 50% partner in Lister and a minority partner in the Connaught, but they are singled out here much like DiIanni was because the public face is Italian, and to most Anglos (especially in Hamilton), Italian Businessmen=Criminals/corrupt/Mafia, etc.

Had this been headed by WASP Inc., it would be a different story.

[the dude]

ummmm, are we talking about larry diianni? ya, he's a target because he's italian...oh, man. his list of indiscretions is as long as my arm.

[the dude]

yea, MY MONEY.
Socialism for the rich.

ya, but there's another word for it, too - neoliberalism.

[oldcoote]

Liuna is a 50% partner in Lister and a minority partner in the Connaught, but they are singled out here much like DiIanni was because the public face is Italian, and to most Anglos (especially in Hamilton), Italian Businessmen=Criminals/corrupt/Mafia, etc.

Had this been headed by WASP Inc., it would be a different story.

wow...that's quite a stretch

[hamiltonguy]

They might be Italian but that's not why people make mafia associations (there are organized crime groups among every ethnicity).


Instead accusations are made based on public knowledge that LIUNA has had problems with the mafia, and that Larry DiAnni accepted HUGE over contributions from companies widely believed to be corrupt.

If the shoe fits...

[markbarbera]

Liuna is a 50% partner in Lister and a minority partner in the Connaught, but they are singled out here much like DiIanni was because the public face is Italian, and to most Anglos (especially in Hamilton), Italian Businessmen=Criminals/corrupt/Mafia, etc.

Had this been headed by WASP Inc., it would be a different story.

That's very lame, even for you Goldfinger. Being of Italian descent myself, I can clearly and confidently say that my critisicm of LIUNA (and DiIanni for that matter) has to do with their poor performance, and not their perceived heritage.

I have also been critical of the lack of interest in incorporating the Board of Education building into the McMaster Downtown Medical site proposal rather than demolishing it. Seeing that Peter George and David Braley are as WASP as it gets, guess my criticm of them is just anti-WASP, eh?

Too quick throwing down a race card here, my friend.

[fastcarsfreedom]

markbarbera--I visit frequently. The buildings are both a disgrace, particularly Lister which has sat in limbo for far too long. That being said, LIUNA has executed several projects around the city with great success. The problems which have plagued Lister began long before anyone from LIUNA ever set foot out of their nifty little offices on Hughson. Something SHOULD have happened at Lister years ago--agreed, but placing all the blame on LIUNA is short-sighted. The demolition/rebuilding scenario--though preservationists opposed it, appeared workable from a financing/business standpoint--frankly, it has been the meddling of other levels of government that has left things where they currently are. As for the Connaught, it is completely ridiculous to suggest that the consortium members would fund such a massive project on their own--if you honestly believe that development projects are funded that way, you need a lesson in the basics of real estate financing...it's not the way it works, for obvious reasons. That being said, if the predictions at city council are true, and the consortium is planning to file for bankruptcy, it shoots holes in the theory that this deal has somehow been spun into a tidy profit at taxpayers' expense. Clearly there is debt on the books, or there would be no bankruptcy.

[flar]

We can only speculate, but the consortium's losses may have been intentional--a tax shelter. We don't even know if they have/are filing for bankruptcy.

[raisethehammer]

Liuna is a 50% partner in Lister and a minority partner in the Connaught, but they are singled out here much like DiIanni was because the public face is Italian, and to most Anglos (especially in Hamilton), Italian Businessmen=Criminals/corrupt/Mafia, etc.

Had this been headed by WASP Inc., it would be a different story.


thank-you very much. We are all now dumber for having read this.

[the dude]

Liuna is a 50% partner in Lister and a minority partner in the Connaught, but they are singled out here much like DiIanni was because the public face is Italian, and to most Anglos (especially in Hamilton), Italian Businessmen=Criminals/corrupt/Mafia, etc.

Had this been headed by WASP Inc., it would be a different story.

larry? larry, is that you? good luck in the next federal election. if anyone deserves to be in ottawa it's you.

[Goldfinger]

thank-you very much. We are all now dumber for having read this.

Ya ok...

This coming from someone who has put all his faith into a clown who used to pitch condos to people on late night infomercials.

If Stinson was to go into a partnership with LIUNA, would that make him an accessory?

[raisethehammer]

Ya ok...

This coming from someone who has put all his faith into a clown who used to pitch condos to people on late night infomercials.

If Stinson was to go into a partnership with LIUNA, would that make him an accessory?

all my faith???
my faith is in the real people working hard everyday to turn this city around. You'll find them on James North, King East, the Market, homeowners buying and renovating...and meetings galore to better our city.
If you've read my posts on here over the years it's pretty easy to know that.
Yea, I hope Stinson does something great, but that's not called putting 'all my faith'.

[Goldfinger]

We can only speculate, but the consortium's losses may have been intentional--a tax shelter. We don't even know if they have/are filing for bankruptcy.

Uh, that's not the way a tax shelter works. If they are declaring bankruptcy, then there are creditors waiting for a liquidation to get paid. Losses from the corporation can be trnsferred but it would be very limited and not worth the effort.

[SteelTown]

I highly doubt Stinson will do this alone. It's best that he works with other group of investors.

I'm predicting that the Connaught group will approach Stinson and ask if he'll join the group and of course Stinson will negotiate to get some things that he wants. Doing that Stinson will help avoid the group file for bankruptcy.

Watch over the new few days regarding the Connaught. Council is about to table a motion to force the Connaught owner to secure the building (see if that passes first) and McHattie will also table a motion to force owners of heritage buildings to keep the property up to standards.

[DC83]

... McHattie will also table a motion to force owners of heritage buildings to keep the property up to standards.

I REALLY hope this passes! Not only will it improve what is currently occupied (such as Delta Bingo/Kresges which needs a face-lift ASAP), but will most likely cause the current 'land-speculators' to sell what they have so they don't have to pay for the improvements since they obviously don't care about how their properties look now.

[flar]

Uh, that's not the way a tax shelter works. If they are declaring bankruptcy, then there are creditors waiting for a liquidation to get paid. Losses from the corporation can be trnsferred but it would be very limited and not worth the effort.

Without specifics, your statement is as speculative as mine, except mine is clearly speculation while yours is stated with certainty.


edit:
Perhaps there were losses last year, or a previous year, maybe the year when one of the investors made millions...

[SteelTown]

Here's a motion to designate the Connaught as a historical building....

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/B429E1D8-F521-4306-B500-EA01245B038A/0/Feb05102ConnaughtNOTICEofmotion.pdf

[SteelTown]

I REALLY hope this passes! Not only will it improve what is currently occupied (such as Delta Bingo/Kresges which needs a face-lift ASAP), but will most likely cause the current 'land-speculators' to sell what they have so they don't have to pay for the improvements since they obviously don't care about how their properties look now.

Here's a pdf copy of the plan

Minimum Property Standards for the Maintenance of Heritage Designated Heritage Properties Under Parts IV and V of the Ontario Heritage Act

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/B0606DED-A40C-42DA-95E1-3C476E04AAB2/0/Feb05PED07239.pdf

[matt602]

Here's a motion to designate the Connaught as a historical building....

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/B429E1D8-F521-4306-B500-EA01245B038A/0/Feb05102ConnaughtNOTICEofmotion.pdf

That really should have been a no brainer 20 years ago.

[Goldfinger]

I REALLY hope this passes! Not only will it improve what is currently occupied (such as Delta Bingo/Kresges which needs a face-lift ASAP), but will most likely cause the current 'land-speculators' to sell what they have so they don't have to pay for the improvements since they obviously don't care about how their properties look now.

Oh boy, I see a Lister Part II with Connaught coming together nicely.:(

[raisethehammer]

Here's a pdf copy of the plan

Minimum Property Standards for the Maintenance of Heritage Designated Heritage Properties Under Parts IV and V of the Ontario Heritage Act

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/B0606DED-A40C-42DA-95E1-3C476E04AAB2/0/Feb05PED07239.pdf


In a city where landlords don't seem to care and developers are willing to sacrifice our history for a few bucks or more $2.00 parking this is one of the best bylaws EVER to come across the table at city hall.
I hope they do it.

[coalminecanary]

Liuna is a 50% partner in Lister and a minority partner in the Connaught, but they are singled out here much like DiIanni was because the public face is Italian

You may have read some of my comments on here regarding LIUNA, most of which revolve around a desire to get them OUT of these buildings. I'll tell you right now that the idea of the "mafia" (this isn't the movies by the way) and the ethnicity of any individuals in that organization never entered my mind. LIUNA does not have a nationality. I didn't know DiIanni was Italian -- because I never bothered to care about it. Most of us in this discussion are here because we love Hamilton and are sick of seeing the city being raped by developers and land speculators no matter what country their grandfathers were born in.

This has nothing to do with race. GROW UP.

That being said, LIUNA has executed several projects around the city with great success.

Their success:failure ration is really not that great so far.

The problems which have plagued Lister began long before anyone from LIUNA ever set foot out of their nifty little offices on Hughson.

Have you been brainwashed by the spec? {/sarcasm}

Honestly though... just a couple years before LIUNA took the lister over, there were TENANTS. Now it is completely un"live"able inside. Basically it's said now that the only salvageable parts are the floors, structure and facade. You are talking as if the Lister is in the same condition now as when LIUNA bought it. It has been their neglect that has caused it to deteriorate to the point that they can try to claim that it has to be completely rebuilt -- on our dollar.

Do you work for LIUNA? {/sarcasm}

[raisethehammer]

the only historic projects I'm aware of LIUNA doing in the city are LIUNA Station and their own head office.
If anyone knows of more, please let me know, because on my count that's 2 good projects and now 2 massive failures. Hardly a great rate.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Projects in general--I wasn't making it specific as far as "historic" or otherwise. They have been involved in other projects beyond what you've mentioned.

We can talk in circles about Lister--the fact is, Lister was cleared of it's tenants by Metrus Developments long before LIUNA and Hi-Rise came on the scene. LIUNA in no way had any hand in evicting the tenants from that block--that was all Metrus--and it was Metrus that essentially walked away from the property and let it rot. I do believe that LIUNA/Hi-Rise could have done more to keep the building secure--but once again you deal with the fact that you have people actively trying to get into the building--it's not just vagrants in there trying to stay warm.

I don't work in a field even remotely connected to LIUNA--far from it--in response to your sarcasm. As for The Spec--despite my distaste for it's parent rag at One Yonge Street, I think The Spec has steadily improved under Torstar's ownership. In the waning Southam News days it had gone almost completely to seed. I hear a lot of criticism of The Spectator on this forum (as I do of CHCH-TV) and frankly much of that extends (I believe) from a degree of ignorance about the operation of media outlets--particularly in a "one-horse" town so-to-speak, and one which is so close to the dominant media players in Toronto. The Spec and CHCH have to be everything to everyone--that's how they grow and survive. It would be great to have a couple of papers--each taking differing editorial stands--but that is not, and never will be, a reality. A paper in a one-horse town simply cannot afford to be too polarizing--it just doesn't make for good business.

[raisethehammer]

fastcars, what other projects has LIUNA been involved in? As I said earlier, I'm not aware of any besides the 2 I mentioned.

[markbarbera]

We can talk in circles about Lister--the fact is, Lister was cleared of it's tenants by Metrus Developments long before LIUNA and Hi-Rise came on the scene. LIUNA in no way had any hand in evicting the tenants from that block--that was all Metrus--and it was Metrus that essentially walked away from the property and let it rot. I do believe that LIUNA/Hi-Rise could have done more to keep the building secure--but once again you deal with the fact that you have people actively trying to get into the building--it's not just vagrants in there trying to stay warm.


LIUNA has owned the Lister since 1999! Metrus may have been responsible for vacating the building and starting the cycle of neglect, but LIUNA has been perpetuating the decay for nearly a decade now. Moreso, they have added to the decay of the block by acquiring the buildings adjacent to Lister on King William and on James, then terminated the leases on the tenants in those buildings, then left them to decay as well. The rot extended beyond Lister to these adjacent buildings under the 'stewardship' of LIUNA/Hi-Rise.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Specifically, I was thinking of LIUNA Gardens and their involvement with TradePort (though they no longer have any connection to the airport).

My point on Lister is not that LIUNA is blameless--it's fair to say they believed they were buying the building to redevelop the property. Needless to say the Lister situation has not worked out in a manner than anyone anticipated. Frankly, they bought the property with a specific set of plans and a specific business case--and that has gone through more revisions, more meddling, more protests and more revisions again. LIUNA is not blameless, but ultimately, they were the ones that invested in the property in the first place--and I would argue, their track record (demonstrated by the CNR Station)--is/was good.

At this point I don't see the value in arguing further about what has gone on and why Lister is still in the condition it's in. The city is out on this one, the business case (which was all but destroyed when the province stepped in anyway) is toast. The real story now is, where do we go from here. Last we heard are they still in "It's not for sale" mode or has that changed since the city backed out of the lease deal? I don't know at this point what the value would be in them keeping it--but again, honestly, how much serious interest is out there in the property?

[raisethehammer]

what is LIUNA Gardens??

[markbarbera]

RTH, LIUNA Gardens is banquet hall in Stoney Creek. Wedding receptions and the like. LIUNA has also built a couple of affordable housing townhouse projects, and that is just about the extent of the their portfolio. They certainly have had no experience in redevelopments the scope and magnitude of Lister and Connaught, and their lack of experience in this field is glaring.

Last we heard are they still in "It's not for sale" mode or has that changed since the city backed out of the lease deal?

fastcars, their song changed the morning after the city called their bluff on the $37/square foot lease bombshell. They are now saying that they can renovate and then sell the building back to the city at a much cheaper cost ($27 per square foot), a complete reversal from their previous positions on Lister. Discussions are going on among LIUNA, Hi-Rise and city officials. LIUNA is desperate to arrange something o keep that $7 million cheque flowing to them from the province . The cheque gets ripped up come March if a deal is not finalized by then.

[realcity]

I hope that cheque gets ripped-up. Liuna has to sell it or develop it. Stop trying to do things with other peoples' money. The only way they will build something they're proud of (and we'll be proud of) is if they put their own cash on the line.

[SteelTown]

LIUNA also built that senior residence at Queen St as well. It was a major brownfield site but not now.

[Goldfinger]

fastcars, what other projects has LIUNA been involved in? As I said earlier, I'm not aware of any besides the 2 I mentioned.

They built and run a seniors home on Queen.
Various affordable housing developments (approx. 8) in Hamilton mostly Downtown and the Mountain
Liuna Gardens
Liuna Station
Their Head office
They are constructing a new banquet and Hotel facility in Oakville.

Remember this is done by Local 837, not the National.

[Goldfinger]

You may have read some of my comments on here regarding LIUNA, most of which revolve around a desire to get them OUT of these buildings. I'll tell you right now that the idea of the "mafia" (this isn't the movies by the way) and the ethnicity of any individuals in that organization never entered my mind. LIUNA does not have a nationality. I didn't know DiIanni was Italian -- because I never bothered to care about it. Most of us in this discussion are here because we love Hamilton and are sick of seeing the city being raped by developers and land speculators no matter what country their grandfathers were born in.

This has nothing to do with race. GROW UP.



Their success:failure ration is really not that great so far.



Have you been brainwashed by the spec? {/sarcasm}

Honestly though... just a couple years before LIUNA took the lister over, there were TENANTS. Now it is completely un"live"able inside. Basically it's said now that the only salvageable parts are the floors, structure and facade. You are talking as if the Lister is in the same condition now as when LIUNA bought it. It has been their neglect that has caused it to deteriorate to the point that they can try to claim that it has to be completely rebuilt -- on our dollar.

Do you work for LIUNA? {/sarcasm}


First of all there is no such race as Italian, It's cultural discrimination and it exists in Hamilton whether you like it or not.

It's intersting that a moron like yourself would be telling me to grow up. Most of the people on this board are nothing more than whining children. Every post I read has become nothing more than a rant about developers or a rendering that doesn't appeal to someone.

You guys are a bunch of dreamers with no clue of what is involved in the real estate or land development industry. You all should be thanking these guys who bother to invest in this city. Without the increases in assessment from new construction and development charges, the tax base would stagnate. Developers have a choice to go to Burlington, Grimsby, Brantford or even Smithville. I guarantee you that they would gladly take the dollars and investment. Do you think CUPE would have gotten a 12% increase for their workers without that? or the Police's 5% or the social services you all love dearly?

I don't buy any of your BS about loving Hamilton or RTH cliche speach of power to the people. If any of you really wanted to make a difference, you would get up off your asses and do something. Since most of you guys think it's easy, why don't you purchase a property in the core and restore it yourselves.

Let me know when you go to the Bank and ask for the money, I would love to be there when you present your business plan.:)

[raisethehammer]

I'm starting to think that BC Ted and Goldfinger are the same person....

so, LIUNA has done 2 historic buildings - the Station and their own office. I could care less about some big box banquet hall in the crick.
Now they've played a huge part in the possible destruction of two of Hamilton's most significant landmarks. This far outweighs any good that was earned at the Station and their own office. I'd rather lose those 2 buildings than the two they are currently destroying.

[matt602]

Nah I don't think BCTed has resorted to calling anyone a moron yet.

[raisethehammer]

no, but he did call me a smart ass once AND said that I suck! :koko:

I'm just waiting for the "your Dad could kick my Dad's butt" line now...
oh wait! We already did that too! Lol.

[coalminecanary]

First of all there is no such race as Italian, It's cultural discrimination and it exists in Hamilton whether you like it or not.
Whatever you want to call it, its existence is one thing but projecting it upon someone else's methods of reasoning is quite another.

It's intersting that a moron like yourself would be telling me to grow up.

I don't think this sentence really needs to be responded to - it's quite hilarious and telling as it is.

You guys are a bunch of dreamers with no clue of what is involved in the real estate or land development industry.

So I guess you are a developer with enough experience to understand everything about the industry? I guess we should be bowing down to thank you for gracing us with your presence! :worship:

If any of you really wanted to make a difference, you would get up off your asses and do something. Since most of you guys think it's easy, why don't you purchase a property in the core and restore it yourselves.
1. Some of us are doing things on a daily basis.
2. None of us thinks it's easy.
3. Some of us have and are.

Honestly, what are you doing here? If you are going to be an asshole, take it somewhere else. No one has claimed to be an expert at renovating buildings. We are mostly calling for sanity from council and developers. Ending tax breaks to speculators, reducing subsidies to corporations who are only in it for the public cash, enforcing property standards on absentee landlords, etc. Your tax dollars are hard at work lining developers pockets. If you don't understand how or why, then you have a lot of catching up to do in this forum.

[matt602]

Well said, now back to the topic at hand.

When are those Vanbots signs coming off the building? :P

[raisethehammer]

as soon as people in this city care enough to force council to step in and enforce property standards, bylaws and get the building officially designated so renegade thugs like LIUNA and their deadbeat friends can't hijack the city into lining their pockets with more money.
So far Hamiltonians are getting what we constantly vote for.

[DC83]

So far Hamiltonians are getting what we constantly vote for.

I voted for Bratina! I'm somwhat content w/ his work so far. He replies to my (many many) emails with positive responses. It seems he actually tries his hardest to balance His Constituents vs The City in Whole when making decisions and/or voting in Council.

If he could only learn to keep his pen in his hands ;)

[raisethehammer]

I voted for Bratina! I'm somwhat content w/ his work so far. He replies to my (many many) emails with positive responses. It seems he actually tries his hardest to balance His Constituents vs The City in Whole when making decisions and/or voting in Council.

If he could only learn to keep his pen in his hands ;)


I mean in a more general sense. I voted for McHattie and think he's the best councilor we've had in decades.
By and large though, council blows.

[raisethehammer]

WAHOOO!!!


HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - The Royal Connaught Hotel in downtown Hamilton may soon have a new owner.
There's word an agreement has been reached for the sale of the landmark to a group which includes prominent Toronto developer Harry Stinson.

The deal is expected to close by the end of March.

Sources indicate Stinson plans to renovate the building into a boutique hotel and condominium apartments.

No word on the price tag, but it's expected work on the project will begin as soon as possible.

The development may also include a new condo tower.

[Goldfinger]

I'm still skeptical about this. I would like to know who his financial backers are and exactly what position he has in this group.

When the sale closes I will check the LR office record to see who actually bought it.

[matt602]

That is incredibly awesome news. I really hope the deal closes and work starts immediately.

Cheers Harry, if you pull this off you will usher in a new age for downtown Hamilton.

[LikeHamilton]

Harry Stinson is on CHML right now!

[realcity]

I'm still skeptical about this. I would like to know who his financial backers are and exactly what position he has in this group.

When the sale closes I will check the LR office record to see who actually bought it.

fair enough, but this if from Harry's mouth on CHML.

"This is my total focus. There is an agreement in place. I certainly have every intention of proceeding with it. The ball is in my court now.
There is signed paper and a deposit."


It's happening. New blood that actually BUILDS and INVESTS their own money and believes in Hamilton as a real city, a real community.

[RePinion]

Please post a summary of what he says as I'm not able to listen myself but am very intersted.

[realcity]

seems like he will model it after 1KW.

He will infill the parking lot. a commercial podium with four wings accessible from all sides, 24 hour food store, "VERY SIGNIFICANT RESIDENTIAL TOWER OUR INTENTION IS TO PUT A WOW BUILDING THERE"> holy moly. !!!!!!!

THe city said the height limit is 80 meters, they told Harry to bring us your plans and we'll reconsider the limit.

[realcity]

First Phase
will restore the ballroom, put back food & beverage, restore the hotel and fill in the floors that he feels were to have a significant view of John street.

Second phase is a commercial podium with a retail mall and 24 hour grocery store that will fill in the entire parking lot. Above that is likely going to be Hamilton's new tallest or number two.

[RePinion]

This is actually quite beyond my wildest hopes. I do hope his ambition is not checked by the reality of doing (or rather, attempting to do) business in Hamilton.

[realcity]

He commented about the city. And he said they were fine to work with. Neither he nor the city is playing hard ball or acting inappropriate. THe city is acting very professional. Another false rumour we always hear about the city from our local so-called investors.

[matt602]

Holy hell. This is amazing beyond words.

BTW he was on CH just minutes ago as well. Basically said the same as was already posted. Looked like they were interviewing him inside his living room. The backdrop was Hamilton.

[SteelTown]

Condo king buys Royal Connaught for $9.5M

February 28, 2008
The Hamilton Spectator

One-time Toronto condo king Harry Stinson is buying the Royal Connaught for $9.5 million and plans a boutique hotel and 200-condominioum complex.

Stinson has signed an agreement to purchase the hotel from a local investment group that includes the Labourers International Union of North America.

A team of local and Toronto architects is working on plans for the project.
Watch thespec.com for further details.

[raisethehammer]

I'm still skeptical about this. I would like to know who his financial backers are and exactly what position he has in this group.

When the sale closes I will check the LR office record to see who actually bought it.


You do that. :jester:

[raisethehammer]

He commented about the city. And he said they were fine to work with. Neither he nor the city is playing hard ball or acting inappropriate. THe city is acting very professional. Another false rumour we always hear about the city from our local so-called investors.


so true...all the little idiots running around in Hamilton pretending that they are legit business-people are hilarious. They always blame the city or some other group for THEIR failure. Quit sucking and being such cheap tightwads and maybe you'd actually make some money by offering quality product.

[Goldfinger]

You do that. :jester:

Before you continue your love affair with Harry in this, you should know that the sale is by no means a done deal, this is only the first step. These things fall apart all the time. It's important to remember that Harry doesn't have two dimes to rub together, has no credit worthiness, and doesn't even own the house he is currently living in, he rents. How can a guy with no assets or credit worthiness put this together?

He is nothing more than a Syndicator and he still has to come up with the people to front the cash for both the purchase and development. He will NOT have any success gathering partners in Toronto, his reputation is done over there. If he is hoping to find rich suckers in Hamilton to back him, he going to be disappointed.

His exit strategy for this will be the same when it fails, he'll just leave his investors holding the bag much like he did with the Mirvish family and 1 King.

BTW, are you going to contribute cash to Harry's project if you are approached?

[realcity]

I'll buy one.

Harry has a deposit and an agreement to purchase. What more do you need gfinger? Why do the investors need to be from Hamilton, they could be from Tokyo?

This is fantastic. even if he max's out on the 80m height limit it'll be awesome. Why 80m i wonder. Isn't a little late to put limits in place with several buildings already over 80m? Does our city want to be stuck with Landmark as the tallest building forever? that's ridiculous. Cities with height restrictions are usually doing it for a reason, Montreal for example doesn't want any building taller then Mount Royale, Ottawa doesn't want the Parliment buildings dwarfed etc. What's Hamilton's reason for its ridiculous height limit? It's not like we've had to beat down all the skyscraper proposals, like City View Terraces.

[raisethehammer]

I'll buy one.

Harry has a deposit and an agreement to purchase. What more do you need gfinger? Why do the investors need to be from Hamilton, they could be from Tokyo?

This is fantastic. even if he max's out on the 80m height limit it'll be awesome. Why 80m i wonder. Isn't a little late to put limits in place with several buildings already over 80m? Does our city want to be stuck with Landmark as the tallest building forever? that's ridiculous. Cities with height restrictions are usually doing it for a reason, Montreal for example doesn't want any building taller then Mount Royale, Ottawa doesn't want the Parliment buildings dwarfed etc. What's Hamilton's reason for its ridiculous height limit? It's not like we've had to beat down all the skyscraper proposals, like City View Terraces.


haha....so true.

I'll be honest. I think he might do a new tallest if all this works out.
He says it's going to be a "WOW" building. How the heck can it be a 'wow' building if it's dwarfed by a current building across the street??
I know a 'wow' building doesn't have to be tallest - 1KW is 'wow' but isn't tallest in TO (although that's a little different in that city).
it's still a visible landmark though.
I can't see him building a 'wow' building that people standing on the mountain brow at sam lawrence park can't see because of landmark place. haha.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Call me cautiously optimistic. Anything that restores the Connaught and gets it back into the hospitality business where it rightfully belongs is fine by me. I don't have any affection for Harry Stinson and have a lot of concerns about his track record--but I'm not going to pass judgement just yet. As far as an adjoined residential building goes--if it works, excellent, no arguments from me if it get's people with discretionary income living downtown. Nonetheless it will have to be the right proposal with appropriate pricing for the market.

It's nice to see that everyone here is supportive and excited about this proposal. I do have to get in one little shot however--suddenly everyone is in love with the city and talking about how wonderful they are to work with and how it's only local investors/developers that are problematic? I've read countless posts that have stated the opposite--that it's the "inept" city administration which hog-ties honest local business people. It's hard for me to get y'all sometimes--but that's a minor beef on a day of excellent news.

[DC83]

This news is pretty sweet. And the price is actually set at a decent rate for the condo units (for Hamilton). Part of the reason Chateau Royal never succeeded was/is b/c their units are WAY over-priced for the crap quality they are.

I think I might be even MORE excited to hear about the 24-hr grocery store. Didn't I toss that idea into the mix a couple weeks ago ;)

This deal may be even bigger than the Lister project aka Lister-UNA Retirement Casa.

I love all this talk & buzz about Harry storming into town expressing a great deal of interest in our city. (Like him or not) If nothing else, this whole fiasco will have developpers across the country talking "Harry" and "Hamilton" which can only be a good thing. Maybe there are soem Vancouver developpers that should take a walk downtown like Harry did back in the fall?! Please!! haha

[FairHamilton]

You can call me cautiously optimistic as well.

So everyone knows where I stand, I'm all for redevelopment in Downtown Hamilton. That includes the Royal Connaught, the Lister Block and other properties. Though I think it has to be a good redevelopment plan which benefits everyone, and that includes taxpayers. But I still think there are snakes in the weeds..........

Timing is everything, and IMO the timing of this announcement seems too good to be true for the Lister Block. I wouldn't be all that surprised to see the local politicians suddenly get all the more euphoric about urban renewal, and start jumping on the Lister Block redevelopment bandwagon. It appears we are at the 11th hour for the Lister Block current development proposal.

As I play out a scenario in my mind, the city finalizes the Lister Block redevelopment, with a damn the torpedos full speed ahead major Downtown Hamilton urban renewal is at hand mentality. Then Royal Connaught falls off the rails (which happens to condo developments) and the city is left fully committed to the Lister Block.

I truly hope my scenario is wrong, I'm just putting it out there. I hope the Royal Connaught becomes a landmark development, and the city isn't left holding any "bags". Only time will tell......

[Goldfinger]

I'll buy one.

Harry has a deposit and an agreement to purchase. What more do you need gfinger? Why do the investors need to be from Hamilton, they could be from Tokyo?

What I would prefer to see is a firm deal with a non-refundable deposit. We only have an offer thats conditional on god knows what. His deposit is fully refundable if the deal doesn't go firm, so he has an out right up to the drop dead date if he can't put his financing together.

[raisethehammer]

What I would prefer to see is a firm deal with a non-refundable deposit. We only have an offer thats conditional on god knows what. His deposit is fully refundable if the deal doesn't go firm, so he has an out right up to the drop dead date if he can't put his financing together.


I would expect you to know this since you are 'supposedly' in business in Hamilton. Any deal on planet earth is made conditional on all sorts of things...not the least of which, would be him getting assurances from the city regarding zoning, building heights, structural inspection of Connaught etc....
anyone who just waltzes into a real estate office and slaps down a non-refundable deposit is a complete idiot.

[DC83]

It's important to remember that Harry doesn't have two dimes to rub together, has no credit worthiness, and doesn't even own the house he is currently living in, he rents. How can a guy with no assets or credit worthiness put this together?

According to the Toronto Star he purchased his Hamilton (Bull's Lane area) home for approx. $800,000.
http://www.thestar.com/article/290630

I understand your pessimism, Goldfinger. It's tough for any Hamiltonian to NOT expect to be let down. But again, the main thing here is that Stinson's creating a POSITIVE buzz about Downtown Hamilton! If you can't see the benefits in that, then I don't know WHAT could possibly make you happy.

[RePinion]

He is nothing more than a Syndicator and he still has to come up with the people to front the cash for both the purchase and development. He will NOT have any success gathering partners in Toronto, his reputation is done over there. If he is hoping to find rich suckers in Hamilton to back him, he going to be disappointed.

His exit strategy for this will be the same when it fails, he'll just leave his investors holding the bag much like he did with the Mirvish family and 1 King.


This is a mischaracterization of Stinson's business practices. He is not a syndicator or a scammer. He is not someone who cynically attempts to attract gullible investors to a pie-in-the-sky project and then takes their money and flees.

The truth is that Stinson believes in the pie-in-the-sky stuff himself! He is arguably a visionary more than he is a business person and this has indeed proven his downfall in the past.

With 1KW he didn't simply leave Mirvish holding the bag. There was an extremely complex deal between Mirvish and Stinson whereby Mirvish would back the project financially and collect the profits from condo sales while Stinson would operate the hotel and Dominion club but also take some commission from the sale of the condos. The disagreement and litigation arose in large part because Stinson and his myriad of operating companies were holding back on delivery of the proceeds of the condo units to Mirvish, particulary on the sale of one landmark condo for some $2.4m. Stinson claimed he was holding the money as a loan and intended to pay it over in time. It seems that Mirvish was inclined to believe him, as they were personal friends, but then felt compelled to bring the suit.

Having said that, there doesn't seem to be any ill will towards Stinson from any of his partners in any of his projects (although a great deal of resentment seems to emanate from him towards them). They all seem to like him personally and to be mesmerized by his vision and ambition, but they lament his lack of practical business acumen.

Hopefully this won't be a problem with his dealings in Hamilton.

I think you're right to suggest that Stinson's reputation was damaged as a result of the 1KW debacle, but I don't think he's alienated the Toronto investment community to such an extent that he couldn't find a backer if he needed one. After all, even if he's been kicked out prematurely, his projects have almost always proven successful in the long run, and it's worth noting that 1KW still does a brisk business both in hotel and condo sales, maintaining a healthy occupancy rate.

And as for "exit strategy" - Stinson didn't want to be kicked out of the 1KW project. It was clearly his pride and joy.

[raisethehammer]

again, anyone who believes that he won't be able to get any support or backing from any of his TO friends is out in left field.
Many of the worlds biggest and most well-known developers act like mobsters sometimes....swindlers, thugs, lowlifes etc....
it's typically Hamiltonian to want to be a naysayer and never see things change....then come on here and whine and cry about our image or taxes. everyone on here is well aware of stinson's background.
Just like everyone in TO is well aware of Trumps. You don't see them trying to rain on his parade and run him out of town, even after years of delay and height reductions. No, they want Trump to develop there - crappy reputation, immoral business practices and all. Because it will be good for the city.
If Stinson can pull this off in Hamilton, it will be awesome for our city. Try shaking off that negative baby boomer Hamilton mentality and join in on the positive talk and fun for once in a town that rarely gets to enjoy either.

[fastcarsfreedom]

The Spectator is now reporting that Stinson mused about a condo tower of 70-80 floors and 200 units--that's certainly a slender tower--but it would be a game changer--the views would be stunning for certain.

We can all hope for the absolute best here. RTH--I appreciate your sudden optimism and change of heart toward the development community--and I'm with you 100% on the Trump issue--various parts of his empire, various projects and various businesses of his have been bankrupt--he merely ignores it and pretends it never happened.

[SteelTown]

^

Condo king buys Royal Connaught for $9.5M
February 28, 2008
The Hamilton Spectator

One-time Toronto condo king Harry Stinson is buying the Royal Connaught for $9.5 million and plans a boutique hotel and 200-condominioum complex.

Stinson has signed an agreement to purchase the hotel from a local investment group.

A team of local and Toronto architects is working on plans for the project.

Stinson has high hopes for the project. His plans include building a 70-80 storey tower once the initial phase of the Connaught is complete.

[DC83]

The Spectator is now reporting that Stinson mused about a condo tower of 70-80 floors and 200 units--that's certainly a slender tower--but it would be a game changer--the views would be stunning for certain.

We can all hope for the absolute best here. RTH--I appreciate your sudden optimism and change of heart toward the development community--and I'm with you 100% on the Trump issue--various parts of his empire, various projects and various businesses of his have been bankrupt--he merely ignores it and pretends it never happened.

Wowsers... that's a little tall, no? That's what, almost twice the size of Landmark place!

I was hoping for a skinny tower similar to 1KW. I dunno why, but I'm always more attracted to the skinny ones: 1KW, Spire, Scotia Tower, etc.

[RePinion]

Where are they getting this from? I really doubt 70-80 stories in Hamilton would ever fly. Think: the tallest building in Toronto is First Canadian Place, which stands at only 72 stories I believe.

Don't get too excited.

If it were to happen, though ... one couldn't ask for a surer sign of Hamilton's rebirth!

[RePinion]

If he did build it: I promise you I will sell my house and buy the penthouse suite. That is a guarantee.

[SteelTown]

The cancelled Sapphire Tower would have stood at 196 meters or 62 floors.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Alas First Canadian Place is a commerical building, which have significantly higher floor heights than a residential building--hence, a 70 story condo tower would not approach the height of FCP, which I think is just shy of 300m.

[realcity]

The difference here is he is new blood. I've only had very minor involvement with the city. Once wrt a BIA facade improvement grant. I found them fine to work with. But let's be real here, we've heard from The Spec quoting numerous local land developers that it is very difficult to work with the city. Until now I believed that to be true. Then Stinson, almost surprised by the question, responds that the city is professional and fine to work with. Maybe the city has changed how it operates with developers. that's possible. The mayor did say he would work on that.

[RePinion]

Alas First Canadian Place is a commerical building, which have significantly higher floor heights than a residential building--hence, a 70 story condo tower would not approach the height of FCP, which I think is just shy of 300m.

I figured as much. But consider the fact that 1 Bloor West is only planned to be 80 stories and is forecasted to be the tallest residential structure in Canada (mind you, it is going to sit upon a sizeable commercial podium). If Stinson's tower in Hamilton were to push 80 stories it could potentially vie with 1BW as one of Canada's tallest condos. I doubt if this will happen.

Would I like it to happen? Absolutely. What a sign of newfound confidence if Hamilton could pull this off!

But of course, it could just prove to be something of a white elephant like Landmark Place.

[realcity]

that would be too awesome. I think he'll propose 80 floors then agree to lower it 10 floors. that would be sweet. Who friggen cares, what's the difference between 50 and 80 floors, seriously at the street level is it really any different?

BTW Niagara Falls is getting a new tallest, the Hilton is going to top the Skylon Tower (built by Pigott). If they can have a super-tall so can Hamilton.