Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[SteelTown]

Rendering.....

http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/new_lister_block_rendering.jpg

This has got to be one of the most exciting renovation projects in Hamilton. Thanks to the one-time grant of $7 million from Premier Dalton McGuinty the Lister Block will finally be restored back to it's old glory. Currently it's an abandon building with a long rich history, it's Canada's first indoor shopping mall which is protected under provincial heritage list. City Hall recently approved the financial commitment to the Lister Block project so renovation could start in the Spring of 08. Once the renovation is complete it'll accommodate Hamilton's public health department.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/ListerBlockliberals.jpg

The eyesore that Lister Block is today
http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/lister_block.jpg

[SteelTown]

Supporting Lister Block Restoration Project Means Good, High-Paying Jobs, Better Quality Of Life For Families

HAMILTON — Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty announced today that the government is building a high quality of life for people in Hamilton by helping to revitalize its downtown core.

"Maintaining Ontario's heritage and preserving our history is part of building a stronger, more vibrant province for all of us," said Premier McGuinty. "The Lister Block restoration will not only revitalize downtown Hamilton, it will create new high-value jobs and strengthen the city for future generations."

Premier McGuinty made his remarks at the Lister Block site, where he joined Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger, other local officials and community members.

The McGuinty government is investing $7 million to redevelop the Lister Block, a six-storey vacant building that was constructed in the 1920s and has distinct architectural features. The project will help Hamilton realize its vision as a modern urban centre. It will also help attract new visitors and investment to the city.

Once the project is complete, the remodelled building will accommodate Hamilton's public health department.

"The renewal of the Lister Block is a significant step toward the successful revitalization of Hamilton's downtown core," said Mayor Eisenberger. "Investment in Hamilton's future is essential, and Premier McGuinty's continued commitment to healthcare, transit, and now this latest investment in the Lister Block is an encouraging step in moving forward. I welcome the Province's continued partnership with the City of Hamilton over the long-term."

"The Lister Block is a provincially significant landmark and historical site," said Hamilton West MPP Judy Marsales. "By preserving its magnificent history and architectural beauty, our government is helping to make Hamilton a great place to live, work and play for families."

"I am so pleased that the Lister Block will be taken off of the 'critical' list," said Dr. Marie Bountrogianni, MPP for Hamilton Mountain. "The rehabilitation and renovation of this historic site will be a turning point in revitalizing Hamilton's downtown core, and will provide more opportunities to showcase Hamilton's unique atmosphere and vitality."

Revitalizing downtown Hamilton is the latest way the McGuinty government is getting results for communities. Other measures include:

Creating a multi-year, $17.5-billion rapid transit action plan for the Greater Toronto Area and Hamilton that will deliver jobs and investment by reducing congestion

Launching ReNew Ontario, a five-year, $30-billion infrastructure investment plan to repair, revitalize and expand public infrastructure

Releasing a landmark Places to Grow plan to create complete communities, with a better mix of businesses, services, housing and parks that will make them more livable.

"A stronger Hamilton, means a stronger Ontario," said Premier McGuinty. "Working, building and dreaming together, we can make Ontario the place to be for our children, and our children's children."

[SteelTown]

City makes Lister deal official
Sep, 13 2007 - 6:20 AM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - The Lister Block agreement, between the city and the provincial government, is now official.

Hamilton City Council has formally signed the deal, which requires it to house staff in the heritage building under a 20 year lease.

In return, the city receives seven million dollars in promised provincial funding to assist in the redevelopment, regardless of the outcome of next month's election.

Mayor Eisenberger say the agreement also requires that a lease be finalized with the developer by March, and that city staff move into the restored Lister by 2010.

[realcity]

Lister should be residential apartments -- NYC style -- and ground floor retail.

[SteelTown]

Lister Block restoration project in dark: heritage activist

Kevin Werner, Mountain
(Nov 2, 2007)

At least one heritage activist is worried about the lack of action being done publicly to restore the Lister Block.

Grant Head, a member of Heritage Watch Hamilton, and a member of the Lister Block working group, told members of the city's heritage committee last week he is "quite concern" there is no information" being released about the restoration process of the Lister Block.

"The details of what is to be done have not been fleshed out," said Mr. Head.

Mr. Head's issues include the minimal information being made public about the city appointing a person to oversee how the province's $7 million, is being spent, and the hiring of a heritage architect to make sure the restoration plans include details on how to preserve the building's historical significance.

The Lister Block working group, which was formed to save the Lister Block, said Mr. Head, specified the Lister Block's arcade would be preserved, and the facade was to be protected. In addition, the two buildings on either side of the Lister Block, one on James Street and the other on King William, have yet to be subjected to a heritage impact assessment, he said.

Last June, Prime Minister Dalton McGuinty announced to a room full of Hamilton dignitaries the province was providing the city with a $7 million grant for the Lister Block. At the time, Mr. McGuinty said the one-time grant will flow as soon as council agrees to changes to the lease arrangement with the owner of the building, the Laborers' International Union of North America (LIUNA).

The province has pressed the city to re-write its lease agreement with LIUNA for a 20-year lease. The city had agreed in May 2005 to a controversial 15-year, $30-million lease arrangement with LIUNA. The idea is for the city to relocate its public health department into a re-developed Lister Block building.

Joseph Mancinelli, vice-president of LIUNA has stated it could cost about $8 million to renovate the Lister Block.

Mr. Head said the $7 million, which has not been given to the city yet, is not supposed to pay for any restoration work, but to help the city overcome the cost of the lease.

"I'm concerned about the $7 million," said Mr. Head. "(The money) would more than cover the rehabilitation of the Lister Block."

Mr. Head said monitoring any cost overruns protects the city from criticism about wasteful spending.

"If there are any (cost overruns) it doesn't do our cause any good," he said.

Mr. Head said he has met with Mayor Fred Eisenberger twice to discuss the issue, but he was not comforted by the mayor's attitude.

"He was very cordial, but said he had not heard what has happened," said Mr. Head.

Mr. Head's plea was echoed by committee members, including councillors Maria Pearson, who was also a member of the working group and Brian McHattie.

"I share all of your concerns," said Mr. McHattie, who admitted he doesn't know what is happening behind the scenes with the Lister Block negotiations.

David Cuming, acting manager of community planning, said heritage staff have not received any plans from the Lister Block project to be submitted to the city for review.

"We are waiting just like everybody else," he said.

Mr. Cuming also pointed out there is no requirement by the city for the owners to conduct a heritage assessment on the two buildings located beside the Lister Block.

"The assessment is discretionary," said Mr. Cuming.

The heritage committee did pass a motion urging council to request the province designate the Lister Block under the Ontario Heritage Act.

"I don't think there would be any problem," said committee member Michelle Stark. "Everybody is on the same page

[matt602]

So... everyone is just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses, waiting for "someone else" to do something. Very nice. I see this project is really on the fast track. I thought Fred really wanted to get this one going, as his words were "as soon as the money comes through, work will be started immediately". Yah. The money is here. Get off your ass and get to work. At 80 something years old, Lister ain't getting any younger.

[raisethehammer]

So... everyone is just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses, waiting for "someone else" to do something. Very nice. I see this project is really on the fast track. I thought Fred really wanted to get this one going, as his words were "as soon as the money comes through, work will be started immediately". Yah. The money is here. Get off your ass and get to work. At 80 something years old, Lister ain't getting any younger.

amen to that.

[SteelTown]

It's now completely up to LIUNA but mostly Hi-Rise to start hiring contractors, getting the money and renovating the place. Nobody wants to start construction in the winter. Hi-Rise is responsible for the renovation.

[the dude]

the lister project is a disaster, as if that needed to be said. the 15-year lease is a joke and if i were fred i'd nix the deal. screw liuna. it's a shit deal from bottom to top. no one can convince me that there isn't someone out there that wouldn't be willing to drop $7-$10M to reno that beauty. just look at the interest that developed from a 6 hour tour from a toronto developer. the bottom line is that i don't want it developed at any cost and that's what's happening under the terms of the current deal, in my humble opinion. just another gift to one of di ianni's cronies.

[raisethehammer]

yup...this whole thing sucks.
The heritage committee report talks about preserving the facade and arcade.
I thought the entire building was being renovated??
friggin LIUNA

[SteelTown]

But you also mentioned in another thread that City Hall will be gutted with the renovations, therefore knowing what renovation means. Why is it any different here with the Lister Block? Obviously it's gonna be gutted out, floors 4 to 6 aren't even accessible as it collapsed.

[raisethehammer]

gutted is one thing...but I worry that they may preserve the facade and arcade but build a new structure behind/around it.....I thought the whole thing was to be renovated??

[SteelTown]

That's likely to happen, turn the L shape building into a box. The facade and the arcade will be restored. The rest will be gutted out, much like City Hall, restoring the main floor with the stairs and marble titles but the rest of City Hall gutted out.

A new addition to Lister Block is part of phase II, something Mohawk College likely will join in with.

[the dude]

i love your eternal optimism, steeltown. i'm old and pessimistic. i'll eat my shoe if we ever see a phase II.

[raisethehammer]

shock of all shocks...LIUNA-HiRise are going to try to steal more public money since they don't think they're pocketing enough already from this Lister deal.
Please, Harry Stinson, buy this property and save us from these idiots.

[DC83]

shock of all shocks...LIUNA-HiRise are going to try to steal more public money since they don't think they're pocketing enough already from this Lister deal.
Please, Harry Stinson, buy this property and save us from these idiots.

What??? Did they not get $7mil from Dalton & The Libs in Sep? Not to mention the rediculous 30yr lease agreement from the City???

I thought with the $$$ from the Liberals, this project would have been a sure-thing. God we need LIUNA out of this city. Two good projects (old Bell Bldg on Hughson/Main & CNR Station) doesn't give them the right to screw us (Hamiltonians) around.

[SteelTown]

Is Lister Block project getting too pricey for mayor, LIUNA?

Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 17, 2007)

Six months after Premier Dalton McGuinty came to town with a $7-million commitment to help redevelop the deserted Lister Block building, a giant question mark hangs over the project's future.

The developers now say it's going to cost several million dollars more than expected to renovate the mouldering downtown landmark at King William and James streets.

And Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger says that's "problematic" if it means the city, the anchoring tenant, would have to pay a higher leasing rate.

"From where I sit now, not knowing what the numbers are but with some sense that they may come in higher than previously anticipated, I think it's going to make it very difficult for me and others to support it," Eisenberger said.

The developers, Labourers' International Union of North America (LIUNA) and Hi-Rise Group, say their studies show that renovating the Lister instead of tearing down and replicating it is driving the increased costs.

"After doing the analysis, we have construction costs which are in the $23-million to $25-million range," said Joe Mancinelli, LIUNA vice-president.

He says the group of stakeholders who came together to find a solution, after the province intervened to stop the demolition of the 1886 heritage site, expected renovation to range from $18 million to $20 million.

Mancinelli didn't have figures showing how the new estimate will affect leasing rates for the city, but he agrees the increase may be hard to deal with.

"The next step is to sit down with the city and say, 'OK, how far apart are we? How can we fix this?'"

Under the conditions of the provincial grant, the city needs to enter into a lease before March 15 in order to collect the $7 million.

The provincial money buoyed hopes that the long-running Lister saga had finally reached a happy ending.

It was supposed to subsidize moving a city department into the restored building, which would ease the cost to local taxpayers.

Until now, the city was looking at paying an average premium of $24 per square foot.

But Mancinelli points out that figure was based on building a new Lister, not renovating the existing six-storey building at James and King William.

He says the new, higher cost is based on reviews by an independent contractor, architects, and special consultants.

The developers met with Eisenberger and city officials a couple of weeks ago for preliminary discussions.

City manager Glen Peace says once he gets confirmation of the updated numbers, which are expected to arrive within a week, the city will do its own cost estimate on the impact and prepare a report for council.

Eisenberger says the province has also agreed to pay for an outside review to see if the increases are justified.

"Everybody wants the project to go forward, but it has to be reasonable and fair," he said.

Council will also have to wrestle with extending the life of the lease from the 15 years as originally proposed to 20 years.

The 20-year lease is also part of the provincial conditions. Eisenberger doesn't expect that to be a deal-breaker because everyone already knows it's in play.

But, "Significant increases or changes in cost are going to make it very difficult to accept the arrangement as previously identified."

Still, Eisenberger isn't ready to throw in the towel.

"I'm not prepared to characterize it as being in trouble at this point, but I think once we have the numbers ... we'll be in a better position in January or February to make an assessment on whether or not there's a move forward."

It will be a huge blow to downtown revitalization if the project goes off the rails.

Besides cleaning up a jarring eyesore in the core, reviving the 1920s Lister is widely seen as a physical and symbolic catalyst for overall downtown renewal, including a proposed second phase that was widely expected to give Mohawk College a high-profile presence in the downtown by moving its music program into the Lister Block.

Mancinelli says he's far from giving up hope.

But once the city has the numbers to work with, the ball will be in its court.

"We really can't have this dance much longer.

"We need to nail this down and start working. The longer we wait, the more expensive this project is going to get."

[Goldfinger]

When you have special interests meddling in business decisions, this is the result you get. Should have let the owners build what they wanted in the first place.

Welcome to Hamilton, it's all starting to make sense why most investors won't touch this city with a 10 foot pole.


:(

[flar]

LIUNA, please sell Lister and Connaught

[SteelTown]

"After doing the analysis, we have construction costs which are in the $23-million to $25-million range," said Joe Mancinelli, LIUNA vice-president.

$24.00 * 60,000 sq foot leasing of Lister Block = $1,440,000 yearly

20 year lease agreement * $1,440,000 = $28,800,000

[raisethehammer]

When you have special interests meddling in business decisions, this is the result you get. Should have let the owners build what they wanted in the first place.

Welcome to Hamilton, it's all starting to make sense why most investors won't touch this city with a 10 foot pole.


:(


you've got it wrong. they bought a designated historic property and know full well what that means (assuming they are reasonably astute business-people...I'm not a business person and even I know what regulations are in place if I were to purchase a designated building).
They worked out a rule-breaking deal with former mayor DiIanni. The only 'special interest' groups that got involved were those interested in seeing the historic designation adhered to, both at the city and provincial level.

All we have here is a bunch of people who worked out a closed-door, law-breaking deal that would have absolutely fattened their pockets, now being forced to follow the rules (heaven forbid) and making a more 'normal' profit instead of the insane amount of free, public money there were going to 'take home' in the first place.
They're ticked off at that, and so are playing games like this. The blame lies with them, plain and simple. Recently, my employer purchased a new property in the city. We saw one that we liked but discovered that it was a designated historic property...we needed to make some serious changes to it in order to fit with our plans, so guess what. We didn't buy it. We bought a different property. That's why guidelines and rules are in place. These guys think they're bigger than the law just because they hang out with mobsters.
Sorry. You're not. And I hope the province/city has some legal grounds to take the building from them and give it to other groups waiting in the wings to redevelop it.

[flar]

you've got it wrong. they bought a designated historic property and know full well what that means (assuming they are reasonably astute business-people...I'm not a business person and even I know what regulations are in place if I were to purchase a designated building).
They worked out a rule-breaking deal with former mayor DiIanni. The only 'special interest' groups that got involved were those interested in seeing the historic designation adhered to, both at the city and provincial level.

All we have here is a bunch of people who worked out a closed-door, law-breaking deal that would have absolutely fattened their pockets, now being forced to follow the rules (heaven forbid) and making a more 'normal' profit instead of the insane amount of free, public money there were going to 'take home' in the first place.
They're ticked off at that, and so are playing games like this. The blame lies with them, plain and simple. Recently, my employer purchased a new property in the city. We saw one that we liked but discovered that it was a designated historic property...we needed to make some serious changes to it in order to fit with our plans, so guess what. We didn't buy it. We bought a different property. That's why guidelines and rules are in place. These guys think they're bigger than the law just because they hang out with mobsters.
Sorry. You're not. And I hope the province/city has some legal grounds to take the building from them and give it to other groups waiting in the wings to redevelop it.

RTH, you're right on the money with this analysis. HiRise, LIUNA and Dianni are crooks, their collusion to milk public money off this was obvious from the get go. Same goes for the Connaught schemers, I wish these properties were in the hands of serious developers and not people trying to scam public money.

[DC83]

$24.00 * 60,000 sq foot leasing of Lister Block = $1,440,000 yearly

20 year lease agreement * $1,440,000 = $28,800,000

$23-$25 million minus $7 million from Dalton & The Gang = $16-$18 million of their money to build.

$28 million from the City over 20yrs (a guaranteed tenant who will not go out of business etc) = $10-$12 million profit, no?

[flar]

In reality the financing for the renovation costs will much more complicated than this so interest will have to be factored in, and the money from the city, thru the lease, will also be paid in installments over a 20 year period. So basically you can't just subtract the amount of the lease from the building cost, that's way over simplified.

[DC83]

^^ haha when it comes to me and math, it's NEVER simple!

But at the same time, I find it hard to believe LIUNA would lose money on this project!?

[Goldfinger]

These guys think they're bigger than the law just because they hang out with mobsters.
Sorry. You're not. And I hope the province/city has some legal grounds to take the building from them and give it to other groups waiting in the wings to redevelop it.

Who said that they hang out with mobsters? Is it because they are Italian?

I admit that I don't decend from Empire Loyalists myself, but all this prattle of the mob and LIUNA is childish and down right offensive.

Henry Mancinelli built that organization in Canada from the ground up by organizing trades on construction sites with his bicycle back in the '60s. Today you have a bunch of thugs from a local in Toronto that want to take it away and do god know's what with it.

If you feel that you can get this project done the way YOU want it, submit a business plan to the City and get your financing in place.

[raisethehammer]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060828.wxbarber28/BNStory/National/home

http://www.uncharted.ca/content/view/228/35/

http://www.hamiltoncatch.org/archives/articles/art_0612/art_061202liuna.htm

[fastcarsfreedom]

LIUNA has done some great projects in the city, including LIUNA Station, which is a gem. The Lister's demise, while often attributed to LIUNA came about when it fell into the hands of an outfit from Toronto known as Metrus Developments--it was Metrus that kicked the tenants out the building, shut off the services and let the place go to seed. While I'd never dispute that LIUNA could've done a better job keeping the site secured over the years, they're interest has always been redevelopment of the property--and as far as I know, there has never been what anyone would call a long line of investors chomping at the bit to get in there and restore the Lister. Should the Lister ever have gotten to where it is today? Absolutely not. However, as I've stated numerous times in the past--the economic viability of the Lister redevelopment as a commercial/Class A office building was dead in the water in terms of viability as soon as LIUNA lost the opportunity to demolish/rebuild and/or preserve the facade. The floor plates are oddly shaped--the ceiling heights are too low--the truth is if the city ever gets up and leaves, the building is going to be difficult to retenant.

Say what you will about LIUNA--I know there are those that love, and those that love to hate--the truth is the supposed "rescue" of Lister by Dalton and has merrymakers was electoral pandering, and ultimately, meddling in a private business enterprise. I can't help but wonder now if this "rescue" ultimately stripped the development of it's fiscal viability.

[Goldfinger]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060828.wxbarber28/BNStory/National/home

http://www.uncharted.ca/content/view/228/35/

http://www.hamiltoncatch.org/archives/articles/art_0612/art_061202liuna.htm

Great, we have allegations from unanmed sources, disgruntled memebrs of a competing Union and a left wing special interest group. No charges, convictions, inquests, etc.

LIUNA has also been seen with leaders and cabinet ministers from the Provincial and Federal Liberal parties. So I guess we should be calling Dalton, Don Dalton instead.

If you belive this to be fact, you should visit large construction sites across Canada and tell the members that you believe their union dues support organized crime.

[raisethehammer]

what I think is 'fact' or not doesn't matter. You asked "who said that they hang out with mobsters?" I merely answered your question.
I find it funny how nobody from LIUNA Hamilton has sued any of these folks alleging their mob ties.
If someone publically accused me of that, I'd sue them in an instant. Because it's not true...
Back to Lister...there are 2 other groups who have desperately been trying to get their hands on the building for a few years now. They tried to intervene during DiIanni's secret meetings, but to no avail. I recently spoke with one of the principles behind one of the groups and they are convinced that LIUNA won't do this project and are waiting for them to sell.
Yes, LIUNA has done some good projects in town.
That's fine. We're talking about Lister, not LIUNA Station. They seem to be in way over their heads here.

[markbarbera]

I have a huge beef with the way LIUNA is handling Lister. They bought up the property on the cheap, knowing it was a heritage building. They then allowed/enocuraged it to continue to decay and become an eyesore, driving any remaining businesses surrounding it out of business. They created a crisis for an entire city block, but somehow generate sympathy for their self-created plight. By creating the crisis, they put pressure on politicians to do something about it. What do they want them to do? Cut them a big cheque to develop the building they own, then lease it out to another level of government to boot. Guaranteed tenancy with very little capital cost on their part.

The Spec article is just songbird Dreshel being played to see if more cash can be squeezed from the city. There is a pattern of behaviour here. They did the same to the often praised LIUNA centre - whose redevelopment was financed by public grants. Granted, at least they didn't let it rot to create a crisis. What really burns me is the same gang of thugs are doing the exact same manipulation to the Royal Connaught. Look how long it has sat empty now. It is rapidly becoming another eyesore created by their own hands. Five years from now they will play the same game to get cash from various levels of government, while all that time the core will continue to suffer due to the developers' own neglect, this time from a location other than Lister.

Guys, don't even think about using the 'nobody is lining up to buy the place' line, because that's bulls**t. There's no line because LIUNA is not selling. They know they got prime real estate for a song, and they know they are going to be able to develop it on the taxpayer's dime and not have to use their own cash. It is a sweet deal for them. There are other developers that would love to get their hands on the building - I know of at least two parties that would leap on the building should it go up for sale.

I have to agree with fastcarsfreedom, the building is not suitable for class a office space. It should never have been considered for adaptive reuse in this format. It would have been much better suited for residential or hotel space. The city itself identified this years ago when Metrus first walked away from the project. Unfotunatley, this city excells at not following its own advice on such matters, and the organ-grinding LIUNA has monetary and political influence on enough of the council to ensure that sound advice is ignored.

LIUNA may be good at representing their union members (open for debate, but not here please), but they are lousy property developers. Whatever goodwill they had in this city has been squandered with the political maneuvering around Lister. IMO they should be barred from future property development in the city. They are the kind of speculative property developers that have added to downtown Hamilton's decay, and they should not be made to feel welcome anymore.

[markbarbera]

Prediction: Dreshel's column was deliberately timed to set the stage for a newly created Lister redevelopment crisis. Fortunately, a last-minute deal saving the Lister project will be brokered just before the March deadline. Who will be the saviour who brokers the deal? None other than former Mayor Larry DiIanni of course, who just happens to be a local candidate in the next federal election, which most likely will be called very soon after the Lister deal deadline has passed.

Wow, DiIanni couldn't dream of even buying publicity like this, could he? It's not like Dreshel ever writes favourably about him in his column or anything...:deal:

[SteelTown]

Ultimately I think down the road a deal will be hammered out. There would be far too many negatives made if a deal wasn't made by March. If it cost an extra $5 million then council will suck it up and approve it, there's too many things on the line if this deal falls apart, redevelop Lister Block, improve King William, fix up an entire block, 9-5 jobs to boost to the area (cafe and restaurants), higher property tax, more revenue, $7 million from Premier Dalton, improve James Street and finally relocate Mohawk College's music and art department to the downtown core.

Mohawk is definitely planning something as you can tell Mohawk is shutting down the portables that the music department uses.

[raisethehammer]

yup...you guys are right.
LIUNA has the city by the throat and since we only have one newpaper in town whose main politics writer is a brown-noser of the old boys club, they'll turn up the heat and as is usually the case, get locals all up in arms if they try to "kill the lister deal by not approving a little more money". You watch - that last sentence might end up being an exact headline.

[DC83]

I always liked the idea of having it hotel/residential.
It's location alone would be perfect for a hotel:
- on King William which is (was) full of 'higer end' restos
- across from Jackson/City Ctr for shopping needs
- steps from Copps/Theater Aquarius
- steps from James N which is gaining quite a name for itself as a cultural district

Why LIUNA insisted on office space is beyond my understanding!?
Well... I can see now after reading the last cpl of comments I guess...
Hopefully LIUNA sells (or is forced to sell) it to someone with interest in Hotels.

[matt602]

Why LIUNA insisted on office space is beyond my understanding!?


Probably because of the connections they have in city hall, who will be their main tenant. They probably have connections with other tenants lined up as well. If you look back, residential is not LIUNA's thing at all. My perfect Lister would be main and 2nd floor commercial with all upper floors residential. Pretty much as it was back in it's day (I'm fairly certain floors 1-3 were commercial and some parts above were residential).

I don't think the deal is gonna fall through, but LIUNA is definitely dicking the city around for more cash. The city understands they can't let this one slip, no matter what it costs and LIUNA knows the city is aware of this. As already posted, LIUNA has got Hamilton by the balls and they don't mind twisting.

[Goldfinger]

I don't think the deal is gonna fall through, but LIUNA is definitely dicking the city around for more cash. The city understands they can't let this one slip, no matter what it costs and LIUNA knows the city is aware of this. As already posted, LIUNA has got Hamilton by the balls and they don't mind twisting.

I think the city should have thought about this from beginning. It could have been the other way around. When the city agreed to the conditions on the approval, that gave LIUNA the green light. The city holds none of the cards in this deal.

I would also add that ANY developer would be doing the same thing. Their not in it for charity or the public good.

[markbarbera]

This kind of deal is not commonplace, and was not offered to the previous owner of Lister, or to any other building owner in the city. Feel free to cite examples of similar deals. I can't think of any other deal like this.

Any developer would like to make the same kind of deal as LIUNA has managed to swindle out of the city, but no one else can. Why is that?

[markbarbera]

If you look back, residential is not LIUNA's thing at all.

Other than LIUNA Station and LIUNA Gardens, their developments are mostly senior's homes and community housing, so I wouldn't say residential is not their thing.

[raisethehammer]

This kind of deal is not commonplace, and was not offered to the previous owner of Lister, or to any other building owner in the city. Feel free to cite examples of similar deals. I can't think of any other deal like this.

Any developer would like to make the same kind of deal as LIUNA has managed to swindle out of the city, but no one else can. Why is that?

don't waste your time looking too hard....this is the most expensive lease rate anywhere in the city of Hamilton.
Apparently, not all developers would do this, and even if they did, i'm still perplexed at the earlier comment on this thread accusing citizens, city councilors or the province of interfering in a private business venture. So, should we be leaving the millionare couple in NYC alone instead of investigating possible slavery and torture just because they were running a 'private business venture'?? Get a grip.

[fastcarsfreedom]

My "guess" here is that LIUNA insisted on office space because the way the deal is/was brokered--it was a guaranteed money-maker. Like it or not, finding funding for projects downtown is not easy--the Lister redo was a solid business case with a tenant signed on the line--exactly what LIUNA required to get the financing for the project. Hotel projects are particularly dicey as far as financing goes--especially when you're dealing with potentially expensive adaptive reuse...hence LIUNA's subsequent problems getting financing for the Connaught (which, in case you've forgotten, is consortium-owned of which LIUNA is merely a part). Althought there is a "lack" of Class A space downtown (relative to Class B)--this project would not be flying if LIUNA didn't have the city signed up and committed.

Really--as evil as LIUNA is painted--this is a business project, not a charity case. Damning them for structuring a deal that is profitable is nonsense.

Metrus "vacated" the tenants from the property with the sole intent of demolishing it, and the economic bust of the early 1990s is all that prevented that very thing from happening.

[markbarbera]

Getting financing for downtown hotel projects is anything but dicey - there is one completed and three active hotel construction/renovation projects on the go downtown - and that's not counting the Connaught. These projects secured financing and are proceeding (or are finished in the case of Staybridge Suites), so the financing is available. The Connaught consortium claim to have trouble getting financing, but, seeing as four other projects did not, I would have to say the financing issue is a) due to issues the financiers have with the Connaught redevelopment team specifically, or b) a 'exaggeration' being used to set up another crisis to force yet another government handout. Given their history, I go with option b.

I am really surprised that those who are best described as right-wing politically and pro-business are defending union-based corporate welfare bums like LIUNA. I would expect their line to be more along the lines of 'if you can't develop using your own dime, move over and let those who can develop the site'

[markbarbera]

Metrus "vacated" the tenants from the property with the sole intent of demolishing it, and the economic bust of the early 1990s is all that prevented that very thing from happening.

Revisionist history strikes again. In case you have missed the entire Lister saga, LIUNA had similar plans for Lister as Metrus had. The economic bust of the 90's wasn't what prevented Lister from being demolished - it was the heritage designation that kept Metrus from demolishing and rebuilding on the site, and that is what has been keeping LIUNA from doing the same. LIUNA has been letting Lister rot for five years hoping that they can convince the city to drop the heritage designation so they can demolish and build new on the site. Metrus and LIUNA are two peas in a pod.

[Goldfinger]

Getting financing for downtown hotel projects is anything but dicey - there is one completed and three active hotel construction/renovation projects on the go downtown - and that's not counting the Connaught. These projects secured financing and are proceeding (or are finished in the case of Staybridge Suites), so the financing is available. The Connaught consortium claim to have trouble getting financing, but, seeing as four other projects did not, I would have to say the financing issue is a) due to issues the financiers have with the Connaught redevelopment team specifically, or b) a 'exaggeration' being used to set up another crisis to force yet another government handout. Given their history, I go with option b.

I am really surprised that those who are best described as right-wing politically and pro-business are defending union-based corporate welfare bums like LIUNA. I would expect their line to be more along the lines of 'if you can't develop using your own dime, move over and let those who can develop the site'

Financing for new construction is pretty basic because costs are generally simple to calculate. In a reno project like the Connaught, the risk of cost overruns, huge overruns, is high. Banks and lenders don't really like risk and tend to pass on those.

[raisethehammer]

maybe they should have found out what type of financing they could get BEFORE buying a designated heritage property. Smart business people?? Doesn't sound like it.

[DC83]

Outspoken T.O. developer eyes Lister

December 19, 2007
Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator
(Dec 19, 2007)

The man once dubbed the "Condo King" of Toronto is looking at getting involved in Hamilton's two most significant but stalled downtown redevelopment projects -- the Lister Block and the Royal Connaught Hotel.

High-profile developer Harry Stinson says he wants to buy the Lister and convert the vacant eyesore in the core into a retail and residential showcase.

"I'm interested in it certainly as a potential project, if it's available," said Stinson.

"My preference is ownership. My preference is to say, 'What's the number, guys?'"

Stinson says he's already had "informal" talks with Joe Mancinelli of Labourers' International Union of North America, which bought the decaying landmark at James and King William for $1.6 million in 1999.

"I would say they're cordial and he's open to discussion," said Stinson, "and I would say the conversations have been far more constructive than I expected."

Stinson toured the inside of the Lister yesterday.

But in an interview, Mancinelli insisted the building is not for sale.

Mancinelli says the issue with the Lister is not ownership. It's whether the city, which is supposed to be the anchoring tenant, will sign a lease that's more expensive than anticipated because of the high cost of renovating the heritage building.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger has said a higher lease could be "problematic" for the city's continued participation.

"A change in ownership won't change those numbers," said Mancinelli. Nonetheless, Mancinelli is meeting with Stinson today.

Mancinelli says if the city walks away from the Lister project, he might consider bringing Stinson on board in an expanded partnership to find a new solution. But Mancinelli says the focus of today's meeting is to talk about the possibility of Stinson helping the consortium that's renovating the Connaught on King East, in which LIUNA is a key stakeholder.
That project has fallen on hard times since a group of local investors bought the 1916 landmark hotel for $4.5 million in 2005.

Mancinelli says the Connaught group is changing its plans because it's been unable to find financial backers to pay for the massive renovations.

"The financial institutions will not fund a five-star hotel in Hamilton, that's the bottom line."

Instead, the consortium is looking at redesigning the project and pitching it to a more realistic market.

"Financial institutions want to see new numbers, a new plan. And I'm sure with the new plan we're coming out with, including two condo towers on the southeast corner of the property ... financing won't be an issue anymore."

Mancinelli says Stinson could play a "significant role" because of his own experience in creating the landmark condo-hotel, 1 King West, in downtown Toronto.

That building is now entangled in receivership and legal battles. Stinson, 54, is embroiled with theatre baron David Mirvish, who largely financed the project.

The conflict has not only tarnished Stinson's golden reputation, it's taken a financial toll.

In March, he filed for bankruptcy protection as a result of the $12-million dispute with Mirvish.

In September, a Toronto Star reporter asked Stinson if he was broke.

"Of course I am, but so is the United States," he replied.

Last month, the successful realtor turned visionary developer made a splash in Hamilton when he was invited by local architect John Mokrycke to address a United Way fundraiser.

Since then, Stinson hasn't been shy about sharing his impressions or interest in downtown development.

He maintains the Lister and Connaught are crucial "bellwether buildings" for what is or is not happening in the core.

He sees momentum downtown, grass creeping through the stones.

"But I think it needs some catalytic event that people will say, 'OK, now it's really worth thinking about fixing up my facade, or selling my building, or converting my parking lot.'"

Stinson says a redeveloped Lister and Connaught have the potential to send an "enormous message."

Given his own financial difficulties, it's not clear whether Stinson pictures himself as a creative spark, a magnet for other investors, or a hands-on visionary.

Regardless, Mancinelli argues the Connaught is still a "blockbuster" project. And that the plan for Lister -- which would see the city move a department into the restored building and access a $7-million provincial grant in the process -- remains the best proposal.

"I'm still convinced that the project we have is viable. All we need to do is fine-tune the numbers to make sure it works for us and the city."

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/298465

[raisethehammer]

I love it. Gee, residential showcase? Where have we heard that idea before?
I hope this guy gets involved.... we need a sparkplug of creativity here to get things happening. It surely won't with our crop of local builders.
This is great news.
Go for it Harry!

[DC83]

I love it. Gee, residential showcase? Where have we heard that idea before?


hahaha Hmmm???? It makes u wonder sometimes as to who is lurking around this site reading our comments, eh?
But hey, I'm not complaining... LURK AWAY... steal our ideas!! They're here for the taking!!
Thanks, Harry ;)

[SteelTown]

I really hope Stinson gets involved with the Connaught Hotel the most. Let LIUNA go ahead with Lister Block, if Stinson can help financially then fantastic.

Let Stinson have majority stake at the Connaught Hotel.

[raisethehammer]

actually, I hope he gets involved in both. Lister is just BEGGING to be condos. It would transform that area. We don't need another building full of cubicles sitting empty everyday after 6pm. Imagine the life on the street with a building full of NY style apartments/condos? would be awesome.

[DC83]

I would try my hardest to get a unit in that place if that were the case. But I still think a Hotel/Condo mix would be best. Create a demand for those units by limiting them to the top 2 floors or something, hotel on the lower levels, retail at street level.

With the tourist attractions in the area, I think it's screaming HOTEL/CONDO!
And if anyone knows anything about condo-hotel mix, it'd be Stinson, right?

[flar]

I hope LIUNA sells, or perhaps partners with Stinson. Stinson declared bankruptcy earlier this year so I'm not sure he'll have any better luck with financing, but putting residential in Lister is such a better idea than office space that it could help him make a better business case. Same goes for Connaught: if there's no money for a hotel, make it something else, possibly condos, maybe office space, whatever's feasible and will stop the decay. I have no idea if the "corporate centre" half of the Connaught building is suitable for modern offices.

[DC83]

I agree about the connaught as well.
If they were to add residential on the top couple of floors (like originally planned) then they would have a constant source of income from their condo fees, not to mention the fact that these permanant residents would use the hotel's services, too.

So hopefully Stinson jumps on Connaught and gets the ball rolling. Even if he can't/doesn't buy it, he should be able to motivate the current group of owners to act ASAP!

[SteelTown]

I don't think Stinson can afford these projects himself so I rather have him join up with the group at the Connaught Hotel. Just having his name attached to the group might make it easier with the banks.

I say keep the Lister project going, hopefully maybe Stinson can chip in a few million so coucnillors won't have to face an increase on the rates. Doing this could help Stinson make some money again as really he has to start all over again because of 1 King West problems.

[markbarbera]

If nothing else, Stinson is bringing new perspective and positive energy to the redevelopment discussions. I'd be thrilled if he could convince/collaborate with LIUNA to develop these properties in a more suitable fashion. Especially if it doesn't require more of our tax dollars.

[coalminecanary]

It's getting way past the point where I'd like to see LIUNA completely removed from both of these projects. Their constant foot dragging and whining is bringing down the entire downtown core. I wish there was a way to get them kicked out for good. Clearly, despite the speculation to the contrary earlier in this thread, there IS some serious interest in both of these properties. Meanwhile LIUNA keeps holding out for the best deal for them (i.e. how to get the most free money from the city -- that means from *us*, the already stretched-to-the-wire taxpayers). And the whole while, downtown revitalization stays on hold because nobody wants to jump in before these projects get started, and no one who is capable of starting these projects can get their hands on them because LIUNA won't let go. Sickening.

[Goldfinger]

I wouldn't get my hopes up for Harry to come to the rescue. I agree that he is a man of vision and has done some great things in Toronto.

He is also a man with the Mirvish family on his as$ in court. They bankrolled his great idea and were left holding the bag on the failure of the 1 King project.

If he is looking for a new group of suckers to fund his grand visions, he may be out of luck.

[flar]

I've never liked the current Lister deal: first, because I don't like the city wasting money on an overpriced lease; and second, because the plan involves tearing down the buildings on either side of Lister. I also don't think it will be restored nicely, LIUNA's preference is demolition.

[coalminecanary]

Just cause LIUNA made some good looking restorations in the past (well, one anyway) doesn't mean they'll ever do it again. Why do we keep bending over for these guys? There's likely more to the story than any of us know. In the meantime they hold an entire downtown economically hostage.

[Goldfinger]

Just cause LIUNA made some good looking restorations in the past (well, one anyway) doesn't mean they'll ever do it again. Why do we keep bending over for these guys? There's likely more to the story than any of us know. In the meantime they hold an entire downtown economically hostage.


LIUNA has done 3 actually, their offices on Hughson St. and LIUNA Gardens were well done as well. The gardens were created from a gutted nightclub called El Morocco in the '70s.

I honestly think that LIUNA are the only guys who can pull a restoration off. They have a track record, access to a large and flexbile pool of labour and political muscle to get the province and feds (sometimes) to chip in.

When I look at the other recent larger complex restoration/rebuild attemps: Dundurn Lofts, Trinity Landing, Chateau Royal, those failures can be attributed to inexperience mostly. It is great to be in the business of restoring these things but it's ALOT harder than any of us can imagine.

[flar]

Lister will be a more difficult restoration than most buildings because of the terra cotta parts. Too much of it is missing and I doubt there are many craftsmen who work with terra cotta any more, and the few that there are are probably very expensive. It would be a lot of work for somebody to make matching replacements. I could see them replacing all of it with some prefab terracotta tiles.

[raisethehammer]

LIUNA has done 3 actually, their offices on Hughson St. and LIUNA Gardens were well done as well. The gardens were created from a gutted nightclub called El Morocco in the '70s.

I honestly think that LIUNA are the only guys who can pull a restoration off. They have a track record, access to a large and flexbile pool of labour and political muscle to get the province and feds (sometimes) to chip in.

When I look at the other recent larger complex restoration/rebuild attemps: Dundurn Lofts, Trinity Landing, Chateau Royal, those failures can be attributed to inexperience mostly. It is great to be in the business of restoring these things but it's ALOT harder than any of us can imagine.

'the only guys who can pull this off'??
I would take BBS Realty in a heartbeat - they own much of downtown and have done wonderful jobs on buildings such as the old Bank of Montreal, Hunter/James office building and are now working on a building across the street on Hunter at James.
BofMontreal might be the greatest reno this city has ever seen. I'm sure there are others around who we don't know about who could also do a wonderful reno job - I'm thinking of the folks who did the old Woolworths building and Right House.

[markbarbera]

Well put, RTH. Not only was the old BMO restoration the most successful of the list of reno is your post, it did not require any government intervention (i.e. $7 mil bailouts). A a matter of fact, very little public funds went into any of the other restorations. Also, the Foster Building can be added to the list of private restorations underway that will surely be a downtown success story.

As far as LIUNA goes, they are certainly not what I would call experts in restoration projects. Their previous restorations that Goldfinger mentioned were all small-scale, yet still they 'needed' cash from various levels of government to pull it off. The only thing LIUNA seems to excel at is extorting huge wads of cash from the public purse.

In other news, Stinson has finalized the sale of the Sapphire Tower site in Toronto for a cool $24 million, which covers most of the creditors claims against him in his March bankruptcy filing. Once this is behind him, he is free and clear to entertain new developments, and his eye is set on The Hammer. He has direct connections to foreign investors with deep pockets, and his new-found interst in Hamilton can only mean better times are ahead for our city.

LIUNA has obviously bitten off more than it can chew with Lister and Connaught. My advice would be to step aside and let the big boys take over the big jobs, and stick to the jobs you know!

[Goldfinger]

The BMO building was more of an indulgence for Gowlings than a business venture. They had significant cost overruns during the renos as well. It's a bit different when you are renovating for your own use as opposed to a business venture. Like building your own home, you will spend the money because it's your own.

With regards to BBS, they are a mickey mouse organization. All of their projects are bankrolled by a gentleman by the name of Marvin Barnett of Finer Space Inc.

I remember reading a quote from David Blanchard bitching about not being able to find any tenants for the Stelco building because he said it's too big for Hamilton and there are no companies left that would need that kind of space. Experienced guys from CBRE, Cushman & Wakefield or Colliers will find tenants. These are smart guys who don't talk that way, especially publicly.

[raisethehammer]

a mickey mouse organization that gets buildings renovated and occupied without robbing you and I in the process.

[raisethehammer]

POSSIBLE SALE OF LISTER AND CONNAUGHT??

http://900chml.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428436912&rem=82123&red=80143623aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm

[SteelTown]

I'll be listening at 11!

[raisethehammer]

Please Liuna! Sell It!

[SteelTown]

If you read the article from the National Post that I just posted "Harry Stinson on downtown Hamilton" thread it sounds more like a deal will be made for the Royal Connaught Hotel than Lister Block.

[SteelTown]

This computer won't let me listen to AM900 so if anyone is listening do go ahead and type what Stinson is saying to Bill Kelly. I don't wanna have to wait an hour or two before someone writes an article about it.

[Jon Dalton]

No sale, not for a while yet.

[raisethehammer]

I just posted a quick recap under the Harry Stinson thread.

[realcity]

Sometime David Blanchard is annoying though. BoM notwithstanding, mostly what comes out of his mouth is how dead downtown is. I think he says that so no one else moves in on his territory.

The problem with Stelco Tower is it needs renovating to make it Class A. I not sure it's even Class B space now. All the Class A office space in Hamilton is doing well, which isn't much. The B and C class should be cleaned up or made into residential.

Class A office space
CIBC Twins (full)
Standard Life (near full)
TH&B/GO Station (struggles for tennants)
Bank of Montreal/Gowlings (full)

Class B Buildings
Stelco (half empty)
Ellen Fairclough (should be C)
Federal Building (pathetic)
Robert Thomson (almost full)

[raisethehammer]

hey hey...welcome back realcity.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Why would you include Fairclough and the Federal building? They aren't out there digging for tenants...so what's the point?

Stelco Tower needs an upgrade to be Class A space--it's the only major "problem" building downtown--not sure what the status of 120 Main West is--what is it's tenancy like?

[raisethehammer]

so, now that we know Stinson is looking to build downtown and seems to love what he did at 1 King West - blending old with new - what are the chances that he'll get on board with the Lister project and have them turn phase 2 into a 20-40 storey tower with mostly residential space instead of their original 8-10 storey office building? Mohawk could still locate at ground level or first 2 floors, but tons of condo space above would make sense....if he gets his way, I see him doing a skinny condo tower behind Lister and I see him doing something similar with Connaught. Restoring the old and building a new modern right beside it.

[realcity]

I think the chances of seeing a Stinson version of 1KW at the Lister are better then the current LIUNA proposal ever happening. I prefer Stinson to LIUNA. The building is much better suited for a residential revamp like the Pigott than being a cubical office farm for the City.

[raisethehammer]

no kidding... Lister is perfect for residential.

[SteelTown]

Lister Block: City to get a $37 shock
Project may go belly up if council can't stomach new lease rate

January 07, 2008
Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator

City councillors will find out today it's going to cost a lot more than they expected to restore the decrepit Lister Block.

City manager Glen Peace says newly crunched numbers provided by the developers show it will cost the city "substantially higher" to lease space in the downtown landmark than the originally proposed $24 a square foot.

Peace refused to reveal how much higher until he briefs council.

But Councillor Brian McHattie says the city is being asked to pay a whopping $37 a square foot.

That's about double the average rent for good downtown office space.

"That's the proposal from LIUNA and Hi-Rise," said McHattie.

LIUNA is Labourers' International Union of North America, which owns the Lister. They're partnering with the Hi-Rise Group of Toronto to restore and turn the vacant 1920s heritage building at King William and James streets into high-grade office space.

The city was to be the project's anchor tenant. But if the figures stand, it's possible the project could go belly up, once again throwing a cloud of uncertainty over the mouldering eyesore.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger recently warned as much after being told by LIUNA's Joe Mancinelli that renovating the Lister instead of tearing it down and replicating it -- as the developers originally wanted to do -- will drive up construction costs by several million dollars.

Restoration rather than demolition came about after McHattie asked the province to intervene in the name of heritage.

The province facilitated a study group of stakeholders and then committed $7 million to the restoration project.

Under the conditions of the provincial grant, the city needs to enter into a 20-year lease with the developers before March 15 to collect the money, which is intended to offset the city's leasing costs of about $40 million.

But McHattie predicts councillors will be very wary of the proposed higher rates.

"I think a lot of us are a little bit disappointed and, perhaps, skeptical is the right word, with the high cost being put forward by LIUNA and Hi-Rise," he said.

According to city officials, the average cost of leasing office space downtown ranges from $10 to $20 per square foot, with "good space" going for $18 to $20 per square foot.

The previous council knew that the city would be paying a premium to lease office space in the Lister at $24 per square foot, but they decided it was worth it to make the Lister both a symbolic and physical catalyst for downtown redevelopment.

But that rate was based on demolishing the Lister and replacing it with a replica.

In a recent interview with The Spectator, Mancinelli said detailed analysis shows restoration construction will be much more costly than anyone expected.

McHattie is unconvinced. He says the provincial study group concluded restoration should not cost any more than replication, maybe even less.

McHattie says everything now depends on a provincial review by experts of the developers' analysis, which Queen's Park has already agreed to pay for.

"I think we're really hanging our hats on that process."

Councillor Terry Whitehead agrees that higher leasing rates will be a struggle for councillors to accept.

He says the previous council held its nose and agreed to pay $24 a square foot in order to support downtown revitalization.

He doesn't know if the project can survive if higher leasing rates mean more costs to the city that can't be offset by the provincial grant.

"I think it's going to be a real challenge for my colleagues around the table. Whether it's going to pass or not, I wouldn't want to presume," Whitehead said.

"But if we're looking at a direct cost to the city of about $37 a square foot, I'm going to have a real problem with it."

As city manager Peace notes, the question may very well boil down to how much money is council ready to invest in a building it doesn't even own?

[matt602]

What a crock of shit. I hope that provincial review reveals the truth publically that LIUNA is absolutely unnecessarily gouging the City here. Even still it won't matter, because I can predict LIUNA going with a "well, whatever. take it or leave it, we don't care." at which point they'll probably push for demolition again, making it sound as if it's their only choice because the city hall bad guys bailed out on them.

[raisethehammer]

lets not forget - the city is in the position of strength here, not LIUNA.
they can scream about demolition all they want. they own a historically designated building and both the city and province have prevented them from skirting the most basic rule of that designation - NO demolition.

The city is the one who should say "take it or leave it"...and by the way, I prefer if they 'leave it'.
Demolition is not an option. LIUNA is backed into a corner now and despite having butt-kissing allies like Dreschel, it still won't change the FACTS - no demolition allowed.

[DC83]

LIUNA will just keep raising their price tag, no doubt.
They knew what they were getting into when the bought the bldg.
Even if the city says 'yes' to $37/sq.ft., LIUNA will raise it once construction starts and the price tag keeps going up.

LIUNA is zero in this city now... and it's too bad they had to ruin their rep over this. I don't think the city will ever partner w/ LIUNA after this!

[realcity]

nice comment DC

"LIUNA is zero in this city now... and it's too bad they had to ruin their rep over this. I don't think the city will ever partner w/ LIUNA after this!"

It's worth repeating.

[realcity]

If they want to tear it down and rebuild then why build a replica? Lister isn't that great of a building. It's nice and historical. But the only thing going for it is its history. But if you're going to demo and rebuild something, then why does it have to look like the old Lister? The replica looses all the charm, and it really is just a brown box then.

If LIUNA showed a building like this as the replacement, do you think there would've been as much opposition? I for one would be saying 'tear it down'.

http://news.architecture.sk/uploaded_images/Hearst_Tower_Norman_Foster_03-725946.jpg
http://news.architecture.sk/uploaded_images/Hearst_Tower_Norman_Foster_02-743974.jpg

[coalminecanary]

I was walking downtown and I saw that someone had hocked a huge loogie on a sidewalk-level window, and I thought "That is disgusting, why would anyone do that!? Now the building owner has to clean up their snot", then as I walked further I looked up and noticed the window belonged to the LIUNA office and then I understood.

[DC83]

I was walking downtown and I saw that someone had hocked a huge loogie on a sidewalk-level window, and I thought "That is disgusting, why would anyone do that!? Now the building owner has to clean up their snot", then as I walked further I looked up and noticed the window belonged to the LIUNA office and then I understood.

HAHAHAHAHAHA Awesome!!! Alright guys, who did it? RTH... I'm lookin ur way ;) hahaha jks

[raisethehammer]

lol...no way. kudos to whoever did though.
no offense realcity, but I would have chained myself to Lister if the above building was proposed instead. it's hideous! the podium looks like it's from Home Depot.

[flar]

Obviously the lister should be saved and converted to residential with ground level retail. But if it were demolished, I am completely and utterly against any sort of attempt at replication or even attempts to make it look old. That never ever works, see how ridiculous the faux Victorian Amica building in Dundas looks or the replictated Talbot block on the corner of the JLC in London.

[DC83]

to replicate looks rediculous... but to make LOOK old seems to work alright.
I like Village Green Ctr in Stoney Creek Village, and City Place Apts on Walnust betweek King/King William.

[matt602]

Had a little walk downtown today and picked up a Mayday. I thought this shot was kinda appropriate for today's news:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k201/sugarton/Downtown%20Hamilton/wouldyou2.jpg

[SteelTown]

Another road block in Lister Block rejuvenation

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - New concerns about the plans for the future of the Lister Block.

The city had planned to be a major tenant of the rejuvenated building, but council will be told today the cost has skyrocketed to 37-dollars a square foot.

That's more than double the current rental rate downtown.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger agrees those rates are too high, but he tells CHML, the rejuvenation project is far from dead.

He says he will wait for a provincial review of the developers analysis before making any final decisions.

Downtown councillor Bob Bratina doesn't believe the Lister Block is that important to downtown revitalization.

He points to the proposed McMaster Family Medicine and Public Health project, which is four times the size of the Lister Block.

[raisethehammer]

give me a break Bratina. if we use that theory then places like Three16 lounge and the new 5 story city housing apartment don't mean jack in terms of downtown revitalization.
The reality is, they do. all projects, big and small make a difference.
He should be standing up to these thugs not just trying to deflect attention away from Lister.

[chris k]

Haha listen to this story...

I was just looking at the updates on the forum and my grandpa walked downstairs and takes a peek over my shoulder. Hes sees the picture of the building and says hey i used to buy my furniture there, its a shame to what its become now.

Lets hope the city shuts them down on this and they realize that its more suited for other uses and develops it properly or sells it to someone who can..:cheers:

[chris k]

City sinks Lister Block deal


January 07, 2008
Hamilton Spectator


The City of Hamilton is walking away from the Lister Block.
Councillors have voted to walk away from a deal with the Labourers’ International Union of North America that would have restored the downtown landmark.
Politicians refused to accept a jump in price to $37 a square foot to house city staff.
Mayor Fred Eisenberger said he’ll be open to another LIUNA proposal that would involve tearing down the James Street North derelict and rebuilding a replica.
The Lister Block has not been designated for preservation. But the province has stated that the building is significant.
It’s not clear if Queen’s Park would step in if the owners seek a demolition permit.



I knew it but i hope they don't build the replica and do something new or sell. PLEASE SELL...:cheers:

[SteelTown]

Lister Block deal is dead. No money from Premier Dalton ($7 million). The new figure would have made the city spend $30 million extra, $52 million in total.

Now Mayor Fred is suggesting a replica now. Harry Stinson was present during the meeting and was interviewed at CH News.

[BCTed]

give me a break Bratina. if we use that theory then places like Three16 lounge and the new 5 story city housing apartment don't mean jack in terms of downtown revitalization.
The reality is, they do. all projects, big and small make a difference.
He should be standing up to these thugs not just trying to deflect attention away from Lister.

The CHML blurb is pretty misleading --- Bratina did not actually say that the Lister Block is not very important. In the clip that I heard, what he actually said was that the Lister Block is not so important that the LIUNA lease rates can be justified, which seems reasonable to me.

And $37 per square foot does sound very high to me... that is nearly the same cost as Class A space in downtown Vancouver, which is in fairly short supply.

[flar]

Please no replica!!! What's wrong with people? Why would one want to replicate it anyway?

[the dude]

ya, she ain't a pretty building in the first place. worth saving, sure, but you wouldn't wanna take her to the prom.

[SteelTown]

Soaring Costs Scuttle Lister Deal
Jan, 07 2008 - 7:20 PM

HAMILTON (AM900 CHML) - Hamilton Councillor Brian McHattie says it may be the end of the Lister Block.

He's predicting that LIUNA and HighRise Developments will apply for a demolition permit, now that a deal with the city to restore the building has fallen through.

Soaring costs would have seen the price tag for leasing space in the redeveloped Lister.....jump from 24 dollars a square foot to 37 dollars a square foot.

The majority of politicians decided that was unacceptable to taxpayers, especially considering that the city currently pays nine dollars a square foot for office space in the City Center.

They are also unhappy that the developer's plan no longer calls for any retail or commercial space within the redevelopment project.

Mayor Eisenberger calls it an "unfortunate circumstance" and "a lousy way to start 2008".

[raisethehammer]

what??!! no retail or commercial space? get ready Ted, I'm about to unload the rant of all rants!
well....forget it. I've made my feelings known on this. it's unbelievable this bull crap they're pulling. the city and province need to expropriate or do something to get it out of LIUNA's hands. we can't just issue a demo permit because their idiots say it's too expensive now. morons.


by the way Ted, thanks for clarification on the CHML piece...you're right, that is completely different than what it sounded like Bratina said.