General STO News and Rapibus System

[Cre47]

I'm starting this thread - and this will likely in the long range images of the construction of it.

Funding was made official last week by the municipal and provincial governments. Construction is expected to start in 2008 with completion by 2010.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/10/26/ot-rapibus-071026.html

[p_xavier]

I'm starting this thread - and this will likely in the long range images of the construction of it.

Funding was made official last week by the municipal and provincial governments. Construction is expected to start in 2008 with completion by 2010.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/10/26/ot-rapibus-071026.html

I can't believe they want ahead with this, when the railway would have been available for a commuter train. IMO, it's a big waste of money. It's fun to see money for transit, but it's not a worthwile project. I mean the buses will even share the trains infrastructures (bridges).

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I'm with d_jeffrey on this one.

Yeah, it's always great to see money go into transit infrastructure, but not like this where it's spent on the wrong thing. I can't believe people(on both sides of the river) think that BRT si still the way to go, because it "isn't broken". :rolleyes:

Gatineau could have easily had a very fast and effective commuter train down to Hull and Ottawa, but chose BRT because the "return on investment" would be greater. If they ahd gone with Commuter/LRT instead of BRT, it would easily become a major leap in terms of integrating the transit structures of both cities, but is now a missed opportunity. Gatineau is Quebec's fourth largest city after Montreal, Laval and Quebec. It also makes up part of a major metro area of nearly 1,300,000. Such a waste.

[p_xavier]

I'm with d_jeffrey on this one.

Yeah, it's always great to see money go into transit infrastructure, but not like this where it's spent on the wrong thing. I can't believe people(on both sides of the river) think that BRT si still the way to go, because it "isn't broken". :rolleyes:

Gatineau could have easily had a very fast and effective commuter train down to Hull and Ottawa, but chose BRT because the "return on investment" would be greater. If they ahd gone with Commuter/LRT instead of BRT, it would easily become a major leap in terms of integrating the transit structures of both cities, but is now a missed opportunity. Gatineau is Quebec's fourth largest city after Montreal, Laval and Quebec. It also makes up part of a major metro area of nearly 1,300,000. Such a waste.

They were blunt and mentionned they didn't even study commuter train, only LRT.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

:previous: Oh, good lord. :rolleyes:

If they studies commuter, then maybe our transit systems would be a little more integrated. :rolleyes:

[Dado]

Now that the Domtar/E. B. Eddy plant has closed and the railway is no longer needed for freight, one wonders if the Rapibus project won't just build over the railway instead of beside it.

I find STO/Gatineau even more lame-brained than Ottawa, if that's possible. They were saying the other day that they would go ahead with their project because they can't wait for Ottawa to decide what to do to. That's disingenious because what they wanted was for Ottawa to let it use the Prince of Wales bridge for its project and link to the Transitway at Bayview. In other words, they wanted to put the Prince of Wales bridge permanently out of commission as a railway facility.

I think it's time for the NCC and the feds to buy up the railway line in Quebec and its downtown Hull spur that goes right past federal government buildings, scuttle the Rapibus project (CRapibus anyone?) and start pushing the pair of cities in the right direction for once. But I doubt the NCC has that kind of will or vision.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I think it's time for the NCC and the feds to buy up the railway line in Quebec and its downtown Hull spur that goes right past federal government buildings, scuttle the Rapibus project (CRapibus anyone?) and start pushing the pair of cities in the right direction for once. But I doubt the NCC has that kind of will or vision.

Ironically, I thought of something similar. Run the O-Train over the PoW Bridge and instead continuing north to the Casino, heads east and follows the Rail ROW which I believe goes right up to beside the Portage Bridge...

[lrt's friend]

1. Orleans South to Gatineau via Innes, Hurdman, Downtown. Trains alternating to downtown Hull and to Gatineau via the Casino

2. Barrhaven-Blair via Riverside South, South Keys, Carleton, Downtown, Montreal Road

3. Airport - Rockcliffe via South Keys, Carleton, Downtown, Montreal Road

Good Luck in getting Ottawa, Gatineau, Ontario, Quebec and the feds to all work together. That is why we have had such poorly integrated transit since day 1.

[Acajack]

The problem with running the O-Train over the Prince of Wales Bridge to and from Gatineau is that origin-destination studies show that there isn’t that much demand along this transportation corridor.

In Québec, the line runs east from the river into old Gatineau, Masson and Buckingham. Not that many people from these areas are going to work in the inner west of Ottawa (where the O-Train currently runs). Gatineau residents who work at Tunney’s Pasture, for example, tend to live in the western parts of the city, such as Aylmer and the Plateau. The train wouldn’t do anything for them.

Studies show the main employment destinations from the eastern parts of the Outaouais (where the train line runs) are downtown Hull, downtown Ottawa, north-central Hull around Boul. St-Joseph, and the inner east part of Ottawa (Montreal Rd/St-Laurent/Vanier).

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.

[p_xavier]

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.

The Rapibus ends now there, and the UQO will have a new campus. This alone makes sense to extend the O-Train to the POW bridge, and have a major bus transfer station there. This could remove buses through DT, when the service frequency will be high enough. But again, this is in a global transit system, and doesn't stand much on its own.

Without the Rapibus, I agree that it wouldn't address much to extend the O-Train there, but again, there should be a loop to DT hull, where 30 000 workers are, and it would offer a non bus alternative, as the others forumers have posted.

[lrt's friend]

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.

All you need at the south end of the POW bridge is the rail to allow the trains to turn into the proposed downtown tunnel. I fully agree that an Airport or Barrhaven to Gatineau route is pointless. There would be too little through traffic at Bayview and too many transfers.

[Dado]

Ironically, I thought of something similar. Run the O-Train over the PoW Bridge and instead continuing north to the Casino, heads east and follows the Rail ROW which I believe goes right up to beside the Portage Bridge...

I'd do both, since there is not much point in sending the train back across the river (morning) empty. Here's how I would arrange it (again, morning):

1. Bayview to Hull via Domtar spur
2. Hull to Casino (this will require that the old tram/CPR bridge over the main line be reopened and a new bit of track on a northward arc be built to join it up to the existing line so as to avoid underway back-up manoeuvres)
3. Casino to Bayview

Get two or three trains doing that and we solve a bunch of problems all at once, not the least of which is the mess that is Rideau Street. At Bayview, people could transfer to the multitude of deadheading eastbound buses through downtown Ottawa. Note that this is an interim solution until we get our downtown tunnel, at which point things could be rearranged a bit to send trains directly to downtown Ottawa. For the purposes of scheduling simplicity, we would have the existing O-Trains continue north from their present terminus while acquiring some new dual-mode vehicles to supplement the fleet on this corridor. Combined with an immediate extension to Leitrim, we're looking at maybe half a dozen new trains, all dual-mode.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I'd do both, since there is not much point in sending the train back across the river (morning) empty. Here's how I would arrange it (again, morning):

1. Bayview to Hull via Domtar spur
2. Hull to Casino (this will require that the old tram/CPR bridge over the main line be reopened and a new bit of track on a northward arc be built to join it up to the existing line so as to avoid underway back-up manoeuvres)
3. Casino to Bayview

Get two or three trains doing that and we solve a bunch of problems all at once, not the least of which is the mess that is Rideau Street. At Bayview, people could transfer to the multitude of deadheading eastbound buses through downtown Ottawa. Note that this is an interim solution until we get our downtown tunnel, at which point things could be rearranged a bit to send trains directly to downtown Ottawa. For the purposes of scheduling simplicity, we would have the existing O-Trains continue north from their present terminus while acquiring some new dual-mode vehicles to supplement the fleet on this corridor. Combined with an immediate extension to Leitrim, we're looking at maybe half a dozen new trains, all dual-mode.

Would it be possible to draw this on a map(google maps/Live Search) so that I could visually understand where this is going and what it will look like?

[Dado]

The problem with running the O-Train over the Prince of Wales Bridge to and from Gatineau is that origin-destination studies show that there isn’t that much demand along this transportation corridor.
So why is STO going ahead with its Rapibus project on the exact same corridor (and make no mistake: STO wants those buses going over the PoW Bridge because the other bridges are still congested)?

In Québec, the line runs east from the river into old Gatineau, Masson and Buckingham. Not that many people from these areas are going to work in the inner west of Ottawa (where the O-Train currently runs). Gatineau residents who work at Tunney’s Pasture, for example, tend to live in the western parts of the city, such as Aylmer and the Plateau. The train wouldn’t do anything for them.
True, but no project currently on the books anywhere would do anything for them, so the above is a red herring. What those people need is for STO to make use of the centre lane on the Champlain Bridge a bit more and then make some arrangements with OC Transpo and the City of Ottawa to get to Tunney's Pasture without delay. The easiest way might be to head west on the parkway and enter the Transitway at Dominion. Another would be to get the NCC to reverse the flow on the left westbound lane of the Parkway between Island Park and Tunney's Pasture.


Studies show the main employment destinations from the eastern parts of the Outaouais (where the train line runs) are downtown Hull, downtown Ottawa, north-central Hull around Boul. St-Joseph, and the inner east part of Ottawa (Montreal Rd/St-Laurent/Vanier).
So how do you propose to get those headed to downtown Ottawa across the river? It's not like we'll be getting any new bridges any time soon, and even if we do once we have a tunnel the pressure to get rid of STO buses will begin to mount. But the PoW Bridge is there, and OC Transpo currently has unused eastbound bus capacity since overall there are more transit users in Ottawa's east end than in its west end. And once we have a rail tunnel, we'll still have unused eastbound rail capacity relative to westbound.

So other than kowtowing to the train buffs such as Transport 2000, the rail-based solution over the PoW bridge wouldn’t do much to address the real transportation issues Gatineau is facing.
The notion of anyone kowtowing to train buffs around here is amusing to say the least (it took, what, a decade of lobbying just to get a pilot project on the tracks?), considering that the powers-that-be have spent the last four decades kicking them and kowtowing instead to the bus lobby and their busways. Now the BRT disease has spread to the north bank of the Ottawa at a time when finally the disease was showing signs of abating here on the south bank.

[Acajack]

All of these ideas for linking Gatineau and Ottawa by passenger are very interesting.

That said, I fail to see why Gatineau should put all its eggs in the basket of a hypothetical rail link across the river when Ottawa itself can’t get its act together to bring rail to its own downtown. Contrary to people in Gatineau, people in Barrhaven and Orleans pay taxes to the City of Ottawa and the Province of Ontario and even they don’t have rail service to downtown Ottawa.

There’s only so much money to go around, and it would be unwise for Gatineau to invest scarce dollars in a pie-in-the-sky rail proposal that may end up at a dead-end at the Ottawa River.

The Rapibus plan, which can eventually be adapted for rail (the stations for example will all be in place as will the park and ride lots) is the right plan right now for Gatineau. The city’s urban form at the moment is where Ottawa’s was when they built the Transitway: dispersed, sprawling and lacking cohesiveness.

It is true that the Rapibus follows the same corridor as rail for part of the way, but the difference is that Rapibus will certainly go to downtown Hull and Ottawa whereas rail likely would not. Yes, there is the issue of STO buses on Wellington and Rideau that is a big problem. In the end, I suppose that cooler heads will prevail on this and that people in Ottawa will see that hundreds of buses downtown are still better than thousands of cars. A solution will be found eventually.

Also, the Transitway experience in Ottawa shows that BRT can lead to transit-oriented development, as we can see it all along the Transitway. These buses-only corridors are now ripe for conversion to rail, and I actually I don’t really understand why it’s not happening.

For this Ottawa rail buffs are rightfully frustrated. But please don’t impose a made-in-Ottawa solution on Gatineau. It just won’t fit. Not now.

[Aylmer]

Ultra light rail (ULR) is the solution to Ottawa's and Gatineau's problems:notacrook: :D :banana: :banana: !!!
2M$/km... hybrid, without overhead wires... small trams are cheap so instead of:
1 train = 400 pass
1 train per 20 min

You have:

1 train = 100 pass
1 train per 5 min

Simple!!!!!

[the capital urbanite]

...wonder how these things function in our climate and how noisy they are?

It would certainly be something that the NCC could look into for their proposed loop around confederation blvd (at that price it could be done for under $30M!)

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

:previous: That is a very good idea! :)

[Acajack]

ULR might be interesting for the downtown loop but on a broader regional level it’s unlikely to happen.

On the Gatineau side, for example, the STO has already examined (and ruled out) every single rail-based option that is out there in fact-finding missions across Europe and North America. In selecting the Rapibus model, they’ve even studied bus-based transit further afield in places like Curitiba, Brazil.

And on the Ottawa side, I still don’t see how the city can in any way get out of eventually building a downtown transit tunnel of some kind. They’re just postponing the inevitable.

[Cre47]

The Green Party of Quebec wants the Rapibus to be extended to Ottawa, I guess via the Prince of Wales Bridge. Article below is in French though.

http://www.info07.com/article-156879-Le-Parti-Vert-du-Quebec-voudrait-quon-bonifie-le-projet-Rapibus.html

[Cre47]

Since Ottawa doesn't have a plan really - and maybe there will be no plan until Very Scary Larry is no longer the mayor - it was a good thing that Gatineau did approve their transit project. Inside Gatineau, we have our gridlock issues for crossings of the Gatineau River during both rush hours. I would have hope that they start the project once the snow will melt next spring (if we have snow - I'm saying, because we are having a hard time having even a single flake flying this year) so it would be done by the fall of 2009 or the start of the new 2010 year.

[harls]

I'm all for this project if it will indeed bring more densification at its proposed stations (a la Minto Metropole? maybe). We can't wait forever for a consensus with Ottawa.. the city is growing fast... something's got to give.

[Dado]

:previous:

I'm curious: where exactly was Gatineau/STO in the early 2000s when Ottawa went through its 20/20 Master Plan process? It's all very well to laugh at us on the south side following the debacle of the NSLRT project, but where exactly was the north side *before* that project was conceived?

Not only that, but Gatineau seems completely oblivious to the effect that its participation could have on the overall transit picture in the NCR. Imagine instead of Rapibus that Gatineau had made serious noises about a rail-based system. Imagine if Gatineau/STO had headed to transit committee and Ottawa City Council with such a proposal and asking to head over the PoW Bridge with trains (I'm talking about a few years ago, when NSLRT hadn't been finalized and Rapibus was in its infancy). What would have been the impact of that kind of broadmindedness on Gatineau's part upon Ottawa? It probably would have forced both cities to sort out their mutual downtown problems instead of ignoring them as both NSLRT and Rapibus do. We could probably have secured more funds from both provinces and the feds than the sum of both projects did in isolation. We might be tunnelling through downtown Ottawa right now and running trains both ways across the river.

What gets me the most about Rapibus is ... how dumb it is to repeat our mistakes when we're right across the river. We made them first! Learn from us! Don't repeat our mistakes! Show us up, for once. Show some leadership, some initiative. But nooo... Gatineau/STO has to *follow* Ottawa/OC Transpo and go off and repeat the same idiotic mistakes that we did, except a quarter century later. It's exasperating.

[harls]

:previous:

I'm curious: where exactly was Gatineau/STO in the early 2000s when Ottawa went through its 20/20 Master Plan process? It's all very well to laugh at us on the south side following the debacle of the NSLRT project, but where exactly was the north side *before* that project was conceived?


Beats me. I just moved here a year ago.

I'm just happy something is going ahead in this region, finally. Face it - if we were one big happy region with one government would we be even having this conflict? The fact that so many levels of bureaucracy are involved does nothing to speed up the process.

[eemy]

:previous:

I'm curious: where exactly was Gatineau/STO in the early 2000s when Ottawa went through its 20/20 Master Plan process? It's all very well to laugh at us on the south side following the debacle of the NSLRT project, but where exactly was the north side *before* that project was conceived?

Not only that, but Gatineau seems completely oblivious to the effect that its participation could have on the overall transit picture in the NCR. Imagine instead of Rapibus that Gatineau had made serious noises about a rail-based system. Imagine if Gatineau/STO had headed to transit committee and Ottawa City Council with such a proposal and asking to head over the PoW Bridge with trains (I'm talking about a few years ago, when NSLRT hadn't been finalized and Rapibus was in its infancy). What would have been the impact of that kind of broadmindedness on Gatineau's part upon Ottawa? It probably would have forced both cities to sort out their mutual downtown problems instead of ignoring them as both NSLRT and Rapibus do. We could probably have secured more funds from both provinces and the feds than the sum of both projects did in isolation. We might be tunnelling through downtown Ottawa right now and running trains both ways across the river.

What gets me the most about Rapibus is ... how dumb it is to repeat our mistakes when we're right across the river. We made them first! Learn from us! Don't repeat our mistakes! Show us up, for once. Show some leadership, some initiative. But nooo... Gatineau/STO has to *follow* Ottawa/OC Transpo and go off and repeat the same idiotic mistakes that we did, except a quarter century later. It's exasperating.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hypotheticals.png (http://xkcd.com/248/)

[Dado]

Was that supposed to be funny?

I don't see the humour, I really don't. Here we have a city committing millions towards a failed concept that has been proved to fail just on the other side of the river. Just like its failed older sibling, it will dump scores of buses at the edge of its downtown and the downtown of its neighbour with nowhere to go but congested streets and bridges.

The point about my hypothetical, as you are obviously too thick to see it considering your inane response, is that Gatineau could actually make a useful contribution to the transit infrastructure of this region if it tried a bit, rather than just trying to find a way of dumping a load of buses on the other bank of the river.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I didn't elaborate on it in my plan for Gatineau(I really should organize and create one), but my vision for Gatineau is the following.

Rapibus from Lorraine to Montcalm/UQO/Maisonneuve.

Commuter Line 1: This will run from Buckingham to Massons-Angers, two stops in Gatineau, St. Joseph Boul., and Montcalm/UQO at base of PoW Bridge.

Commuter Line 2: Will run from Wakefield to Chelsea to Boul. St. Joseph to new UQO Bus station/campus area near PoW Bridge.

Tram line that runs from Galeries De Hull to Place Aubry by being on-street down St. Joseph, Montcalm and Promenade du Portage.

[Acajack]

I fail to see how anyone could describe the Transitway as being a failure. Ottawa has some of the highest % of transit usage in all of North America.

Sure, the Transitway was built for 1980s Ottawa and now that the city has grown, matured and densified, it’s time to think about converting the system to some type of rail, I agree.

But to suggest that the Transitway hasn’t done its job over the past quarter century is a fallacy, especially given the fact that Ottawa (and the Region of Ottawa-Carleton before it), has never stopped fostering sprawl-type urban development policies in both its residential and office development, all of which has allowed people and especially jobs to move out of the central area into zones that are very difficult to serve with any type of public transport. Couple that with the fact that Ottawa never had the courage to address the vital missing Transitway link that is the mess on Albert and Slater streets in the downtown core.

So all in all, and in spite of the many strikes against it, the Transitway has served Ottawa pretty well.

Especially if one considers that the ultimate goal of an urban public transportation plan is to move large numbers of people, PERIOD. The goal is not to move large numbers of people by only using someone’s pet transportation mode.

[eemy]

Especially if one considers that the ultimate goal of an urban public transportation plan is to move large numbers of people, PERIOD. The goal is not to move large numbers of people by only using someone’s pet transportation mode.

I think there are other worthwhile goals of transit, but I do agree that a lot of people seem to lose site of this larger picture.

[harls]

Councillor wants the Rapibus to be extended to Aylmer..

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20071211/CPACTUALITES/712110324/6784/CPDROIT

[wingman]

Councillor wants the Rapibus to be extended to Aylmer..

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20071211/CPACTUALITES/712110324/6784/CPDROIT

Can't blame them for wanting a better connection to the West... what are the options though? Remove Lucerne and replace it with a Rapibus Lane/Rail Line? That's the only option I can see - which isn't all bad since it would hit the Park and Rides at Rivermead, St-Dominique as well as pass through the UQO.

Traffic doesn't seem too bad heading to and fro Alymer (maybe because I don't go there during rush hour).

Plus wouldn't the proper plan be to build a western bridge rather than bring more people into the downtown core?

[harls]

Can't blame them for wanting a better connection to the West... what are the options though? Remove Lucerne and replace it with a Rapibus Lane/Rail Line? That's the only option I can see - which isn't all bad since it would hit the Park and Rides at Rivermead, St-Dominique as well as pass through the UQO.

Traffic doesn't seem too bad heading to and fro Alymer (maybe because I don't go there during rush hour).

Plus wouldn't the proper plan be to build a western bridge rather than bring more people into the downtown core?

A line along Lucerne would make sense, but that ship sailed when they ripped up the tracks and replaced them with a bike path. The Rivermead Parc-o-bus is still a fair walk from Lucerne. I wish I could find some old pics of the streetcars that used to run from Hull to Vanier Rd..

Traffic is only really bad approaching the Champlain Bridge, IMO.

[Justin10000]

I remember seeing a report for a guided bus system for Downtown Hull, and Ottawa.

[Aylmer]

I still think that the only way we will get transit to the south of Aylmer will be with ULR...

Does the rapibus project have a plan to convert it?

[Richard Eade]

I wonder how much actual analysis people put into their comments, or whether they are simply thoughtlessly repeating the mantra ‘Bus Bad – Train Good’.

I'm pulling up the Gatineau’s Rapibus system is an excellent example. A quick scan of several transit threads will turn up a number of very negative comments about how Gatineau is crazy to make the same mistake Ottawa did; that they are building a busway right beside a “friggen” railway track; that they should have built their new system as LRT since people need to transfer onto the BRT buses any way. ‘Bus Bad – Train Good’.

The main line from Labrosse to Alexandre-Taché could have been built as rail, but then where would people go? LRT passengers would be forced to transfer back onto a bus to get to Ottawa. “Well, they just need to build a tram into downtown Ottawa”, comes the response. And just how is the STO supposed to build anything through the core of Ottawa? Seriously, how much thinking goes on before these ideas are uttered?

STO, Gatineau, or the Province of Quebec has no authority to build a rail line into Ottawa.

They could, potentially, use the existing line across the Prince of Wales Bridge, but it is a single track to a Transitway station which will be closed down, torn out, and not ready for another five years – and even after that, their customers will be forced to transfer onto crowded trains along the Confederation Line. GREAT! This sounds like an awesome idea for encouraging people to use their new rapid transit service.

In truth, there is no reasonable option but to continue to use STO buses into Ottawa’s downtown. So, if their customers must use buses to cross the river, and that accounts for a large part of the market that they are trying to move, does it make sense to force everyone to transfer after a five minute LRT ride onto a bus? How much infrastructure will need to be built to handle the passenger transfer flows? Is there a better way?

Yes, there is a better way; simply put people on a bus and take them into Ottawa without the extra transfer. But not in a system of Express buses; the new system would use neighbourhood ‘collector’ buses to bring customers to their closest Rapibus station. Once the ‘collector’, or ‘feeder’, buses have concentrated the customers at the stations, they transfer onto frequent larger ‘Trunk-line’ buses. The bus to Ottawa will be one of the three ‘Trunk’ lines running on the Rapibus infrastructure. Anyone going to Ottawa will simply hop on the next Red-line bus and they will be whisked across the bridge to downtown Ottawa. Anyone traveling from Ottawa’s core to Gatineau can hop on any STO Rapibus vehicle passing, since they all travel the same route. There is no longer any waiting for a particular Express bus; they just take the first bus and transfer from their closest Rapibus station.

I would be interested to hear any good arguments about how Gatineau could have developed a rail based rapid transit system at this time. To me, they have made the most reasonable decisions they could have, given the limitations they faced. I am not looking for ‘magic wand’ options, like creating a new tunnel under Gatineau’s downtown , under the river, and under Ottawa; these are not in anyway realistic

[eternallyme]

About the O-Train and Prince of Wales Bridge, if that were built, it would create a direct transfer opportunity to the Rapibus Hull route at Montcalm, and if two stations are built, also an opportunity to a transfer at Tache-UQO for the direct crosstown route.

That would be highly advantageous for the following reasons - both operational and development-based:

1) Those working in Gatineau and living in the south end would have a direct, high-speed connection with only a short walk from Montcalm/Tache - transfers from local routes at South Keys or Greenboro (or any other station) would quickly send them directly to Gatineau without going into downtown Ottawa.

2) Those living in Gatineau and working in the south end - especially Confederation Heights - would no longer have to go downtown, and would have a quick transfer from the Rapibus and a 12 to 15 minute trip remaining. Currently, the travel time from central Hull to Confederation - via STO routes and Route 4 or 87 - is at least 30 to 40 minutes including a walk of 3 to 4 blocks, depending on traffic and walking speeds. For most, that would be a saving of at least 20 to 30 minutes (and, for some, cutting transfers by one).

3) Central Hull might be attractive to Carleton University students looking for cheaper rent for the same reasons as above - saving at least 20 to 30 minutes of travel time.

4) Fewer buses would be necessary on Route 105, as a transfer to the O-Train would be more convenient for most, with a save of resources. Some 105 service would still be necessary, but not nearly as much.

5) Fewer buses would be needed on Rideau and Wellington Streets. Some who come from Gatineau would make the transfer to the O-Train (either to go west or south, even if one more transfer). The STO may then find it ideal to reduce the number of Ottawa-bound buses during rush hour as they would only service those going downtown (or perhaps to local OC Transpo routes at the Rideau Centre), which would be a save of resources for the STO as well.

6) It is well-known that train-based rapid transit is more attract to future development. As a result, that could make central Hull a more attractive location for condos and businesses, especially given the lower rents there.

[Uhuniau]

The main line from Labrosse to Alexandre-Taché could have been built as rail, but then where would people go? LRT passengers would be forced to transfer back onto a bus to get to Ottawa. “Well, they just need to build a tram into downtown Ottawa”, comes the response. And just how is the STO supposed to build anything through the core of Ottawa?

Maybe by picking up the phone and calling Ottawa?

It's amazing how isolated the planning of the two cities is from one another.

STO, Gatineau, or the Province of Quebec has no authority to build a rail line into Ottawa.

And?

They could, potentially, use the existing line across the Prince of Wales Bridge, but it is a single track to a Transitway station which will be closed down, torn out, and not ready for another five years – and even after that, their customers will be forced to transfer onto crowded trains along the Confederation Line. GREAT! This sounds like an awesome idea for encouraging people to use their new rapid transit service.

Rail with transfer still beats the hell out of buses.

In truth, there is no reasonable option but to continue to use STO buses into Ottawa’s downtown.

In part, because of Ottawa's choices. Seriously; do the two cities and two provinces not know that the telephone exists?

Yes, there is a better way; simply put people on a bus and take them into Ottawa without the extra transfer. But not in a system of Express buses; the new system would use neighbourhood ‘collector’ buses to bring customers to their closest Rapibus station. Once the ‘collector’, or ‘feeder’, buses have concentrated the customers at the stations, they transfer onto frequent larger ‘Trunk-line’ buses.

But we're told that's unpossible in Ottawa. It's possibler in Gatineau?

I would be interested to hear any good arguments about how Gatineau could have developed a rail based rapid transit system at this time.

By getting on the blower to Ottawa (the city), Ottawa (the feds) and Quebec City, and getting the O-train extended north along the existing rail line and deep into Gatineau. The capital cost for the rail infrastructure (not counting rolling stock) couldn't have been much worse than the Crappybus project that involved relocating the rail line.

Simple. Elegant. Sensible. And in Ottawa-Gatineau, impossible.

[Acajack]

I wonder how much actual analysis people put into their comments, or whether they are simply thoughtlessly repeating the mantra ‘Bus Bad – Train Good’.

I'm pulling up the Gatineau’s Rapibus system is an excellent example. A quick scan of several transit threads will turn up a number of very negative comments about how Gatineau is crazy to make the same mistake Ottawa did; that they are building a busway right beside a “friggen” railway track; that they should have built their new system as LRT since people need to transfer onto the BRT buses any way. ‘Bus Bad – Train Good’.

The main line from Labrosse to Alexandre-Taché could have been built as rail, but then where would people go? LRT passengers would be forced to transfer back onto a bus to get to Ottawa. “Well, they just need to build a tram into downtown Ottawa”, comes the response. And just how is the STO supposed to build anything through the core of Ottawa? Seriously, how much thinking goes on before these ideas are uttered?

STO, Gatineau, or the Province of Quebec has no authority to build a rail line into Ottawa.

They could, potentially, use the existing line across the Prince of Wales Bridge, but it is a single track to a Transitway station which will be closed down, torn out, and not ready for another five years – and even after that, their customers will be forced to transfer onto crowded trains along the Confederation Line. GREAT! This sounds like an awesome idea for encouraging people to use their new rapid transit service.

In truth, there is no reasonable option but to continue to use STO buses into Ottawa’s downtown. So, if their customers must use buses to cross the river, and that accounts for a large part of the market that they are trying to move, does it make sense to force everyone to transfer after a five minute LRT ride onto a bus? How much infrastructure will need to be built to handle the passenger transfer flows? Is there a better way?

Yes, there is a better way; simply put people on a bus and take them into Ottawa without the extra transfer. But not in a system of Express buses; the new system would use neighbourhood ‘collector’ buses to bring customers to their closest Rapibus station. Once the ‘collector’, or ‘feeder’, buses have concentrated the customers at the stations, they transfer onto frequent larger ‘Trunk-line’ buses. The bus to Ottawa will be one of the three ‘Trunk’ lines running on the Rapibus infrastructure. Anyone going to Ottawa will simply hop on the next Red-line bus and they will be whisked across the bridge to downtown Ottawa. Anyone traveling from Ottawa’s core to Gatineau can hop on any STO Rapibus vehicle passing, since they all travel the same route. There is no longer any waiting for a particular Express bus; they just take the first bus and transfer from their closest Rapibus station.

I would be interested to hear any good arguments about how Gatineau could have developed a rail based rapid transit system at this time. To me, they have made the most reasonable decisions they could have, given the limitations they faced. I am not looking for ‘magic wand’ options, like creating a new tunnel under Gatineau’s downtown , under the river, and under Ottawa; these are not in anyway realistic

Thanks for a very honest assessment of the Rapibus project and why it was chosen. Most of the comments here are very quick-handed and simply want Gatineau to embark on Ottawa's train: "Gatineau should simply do like Ottawa and then everything would be fine."

I myself am not totally convinced about the Rapibus, although I don't really have a better idea and am eager to see it in action this fall and willing to give it a chance to prove itself.

[lrt's friend]

I wonder how much actual analysis people put into their comments, or whether they are simply thoughtlessly repeating the mantra ‘Bus Bad – Train Good’.

I'm pulling up the Gatineau’s Rapibus system is an excellent example. A quick scan of several transit threads will turn up a number of very negative comments about how Gatineau is crazy to make the same mistake Ottawa did; that they are building a busway right beside a “friggen” railway track; that they should have built their new system as LRT since people need to transfer onto the BRT buses any way. ‘Bus Bad – Train Good’.

The main line from Labrosse to Alexandre-Taché could have been built as rail, but then where would people go? LRT passengers would be forced to transfer back onto a bus to get to Ottawa. “Well, they just need to build a tram into downtown Ottawa”, comes the response. And just how is the STO supposed to build anything through the core of Ottawa? Seriously, how much thinking goes on before these ideas are uttered?

STO, Gatineau, or the Province of Quebec has no authority to build a rail line into Ottawa.

They could, potentially, use the existing line across the Prince of Wales Bridge, but it is a single track to a Transitway station which will be closed down, torn out, and not ready for another five years – and even after that, their customers will be forced to transfer onto crowded trains along the Confederation Line. GREAT! This sounds like an awesome idea for encouraging people to use their new rapid transit service.

In truth, there is no reasonable option but to continue to use STO buses into Ottawa’s downtown. So, if their customers must use buses to cross the river, and that accounts for a large part of the market that they are trying to move, does it make sense to force everyone to transfer after a five minute LRT ride onto a bus? How much infrastructure will need to be built to handle the passenger transfer flows? Is there a better way?

Yes, there is a better way; simply put people on a bus and take them into Ottawa without the extra transfer. But not in a system of Express buses; the new system would use neighbourhood ‘collector’ buses to bring customers to their closest Rapibus station. Once the ‘collector’, or ‘feeder’, buses have concentrated the customers at the stations, they transfer onto frequent larger ‘Trunk-line’ buses. The bus to Ottawa will be one of the three ‘Trunk’ lines running on the Rapibus infrastructure. Anyone going to Ottawa will simply hop on the next Red-line bus and they will be whisked across the bridge to downtown Ottawa. Anyone traveling from Ottawa’s core to Gatineau can hop on any STO Rapibus vehicle passing, since they all travel the same route. There is no longer any waiting for a particular Express bus; they just take the first bus and transfer from their closest Rapibus station.

I would be interested to hear any good arguments about how Gatineau could have developed a rail based rapid transit system at this time. To me, they have made the most reasonable decisions they could have, given the limitations they faced. I am not looking for ‘magic wand’ options, like creating a new tunnel under Gatineau’s downtown , under the river, and under Ottawa; these are not in anyway realistic

Now let's flip this around by 180 degrees. Because, what Richard is talking about is what is planned (and even worse) for the south end of the city.

The last I have heard is that we will have a Transitway from Hurdman to South Keys and a Transitway from Leitrim to Barrhaven. and the O-Train from Leitrim to Bayview. Everywhere pretty well requires a transfer.

How many transfers are we expected to put up with especially during off-peak hours? Trains will not be running every 3 minutes in off-peak hours, in the case of the O-Train they will not be running at that frequency any time. They will be running likely every 15 minutes instead during off-peak hours and late at night every 30 minutes on the O-Train.

I will get back to my old argument that speed of service from start to end of our trips is more important than whether it is a train or a bus. I realize that rail will affect the design of the city but what about the 100,000s of taxpayers who will never live within walking distance of rail. Why are our concerns ignored?

At some point, my city councillor (Diane Deans) will hear from me about this because I am funding these rail projects that are not going to deliver faster service to the majority of the population.

Yes, make us wait to transfer (often multiple times), but when it gets too long, day in and day out, we will find an alternate way to get around the city.

So, apply my thoughts to what Richard is talking about. I am being quite practical about this. People are not going to put up with waiting much longer, just because it is a train.

And I think Richard also makes a point that I have made in the past about transfers at Bayview and the fact that trains will be overcrowded for those few stops into downtown. We can make Bayview a mega transfer station but this will become a major bottleneck for passengers and wait times could become unacceptable if you have to wait while more than one full train passes. It is also a point of efficiency since you have to build your system to handle the maximum load on the line. When you force thousands to transfer at Bayview and 90% are going in the same direction, you need enough trains to handle that load but outside of that small section between Bayview and downtown, you are running more trains than are necessary and there is a cost of doing that.

[1overcosc]

Thanks for a very honest assessment of the Rapibus project and why it was chosen. Most of the comments here are very quick-handed and simply want Gatineau to embark on Ottawa's train: "Gatineau should simply do like Ottawa and then everything would be fine."

That statement comes close to the root of the problem in this metropolitan region. Here's a reality: Gatineau is a suburb/satellite city of Ottawa. As much as the Quebecois nationalists there, and the francophone bashers over here, want to think otherwise, it's true. Gatineau should be treated the same as Kanata--as an Ottawa suburb. As such rapid transit to Gatineau should be provided as part of Ottawa's rapid transit network.

[Capital Shaun]

That statement comes close to the root of the problem in this metropolitan region. Here's a reality: Gatineau is a suburb/satellite city of Ottawa. As much as the Quebecois nationalists there, and the francophone bashers over here, want to think otherwise, it's true. Gatineau should be treated the same as Kanata--as an Ottawa suburb. As such rapid transit to Gatineau should be provided as part of Ottawa's rapid transit network.

:worship:

I'm sure myself and a few others have stated similar thoughts before in different threads.

[Acajack]

That statement comes close to the root of the problem in this metropolitan region. Here's a reality: Gatineau is a suburb/satellite city of Ottawa. As much as the Quebecois nationalists there, and the francophone bashers over here, want to think otherwise, it's true. Gatineau should be treated the same as Kanata--as an Ottawa suburb. As such rapid transit to Gatineau should be provided as part of Ottawa's rapid transit network.

I know it seems that way to most on the Ottawa side but viewed from the Gatineau side it's not how things generally appear. And I say this as someone originally from Ottawa who expected it to be that way (your view) when I moved here and was surprised it wasn't.

[Capital Shaun]

I know it seems that way to most on the Ottawa side but viewed from the Gatineau side it's not how things generally appear. And I say this as someone originally from Ottawa who expected it to be that way (your view) when I moved here and was surprised it wasn't.

It's not that there's a strong separatist attitude in Gatineau but there's certainly a vibe that it likes to pretend it's a real independent city (in the economic sense) and that Ottawa is just some far distant land where a few of its residents just happen to work.

If it wasn't for all the employment in Ottawa, Gatineau wouldn't be much of a city. The bridges into Ottawa are full of traffic every morning for a reason.

[1overcosc]

It's not that there's a strong separatist attitude in Gatineau but there's certainly a vibe that it likes to pretend it's a real independent city (in the economic sense) and that Ottawa is just some far distant land where a few of its residents just happen to work.

If it wasn't for all the employment in Ottawa, Gatineau wouldn't be much of a city. The bridges into Ottawa are full of traffic every morning for a reason.

IMO Quebecois nationalism does play some role in Gatinois' false sense of independence. While many people are not separatists politically, they do feel a sense of Quebec as a distinct community (this is something a lot of English Canadians have difficulty understanding, they hear 'nationalism' and immediately think of political separatists) With a viewpoint like that the reality that your city is dependent on one outside of that distinct community is a hard pill to swallow.

I do agree that non-nationalist factors are definitely at play as well. Kanata long had a similarly snarky sense of independence from Ottawa (although one without cultural/national factors obviously), and over the years with greater integration of the RMOC followed by amalgamation Kanatans were put in their place, although the sense of independence still pervades their civic mindset to an extent.

[lrt's friend]

IMO Quebecois nationalism does play some role in Gatinois' false sense of independence. While many people are not separatists politically, they do feel a sense of Quebec as a distinct community (this is something a lot of English Canadians have difficulty understanding, they hear 'nationalism' and immediately think of political separatists) With a viewpoint like that the reality that your city is dependent on one outside of that distinct community is a hard pill to swallow.

I do agree that non-nationalist factors are definitely at play as well. Kanata long had a similarly snarky sense of independence from Ottawa (although one without cultural/national factors obviously), and over the years with greater integration of the RMOC followed by amalgamation Kanatans were put in their place, although the sense of independence still pervades their civic mindset to an extent.

I think this can be best described as civic pride. There is a lot of positive things that came about as a result of amalgamation but as someone who lived in one of the former municipalities, there is also a sense of loss because of the lack of local control over local issues. Everything seems to have gone into a black hole on Laurier Avenue and none of our opinions on any issue seem to matter anymore. To say that Kanata residents have been put in their place is very unsympathetic and many positive things can come about from residents having pride in their community. It is frustrating to see city council ram something down on a community as a result of councillors' votes from other parts of the city. I have seen this a number of times. To some degree, the rural communities have managed a degree of local control but that is the result of strong local institutions that are volunteer based. Those local volunteer institutions did not exist to the same degree in Kanata, Nepean and Gloucester.

There is certainly a linguistic element regarding Gatineau and the confusion about language and politics in Quebec. That does give the false sense of civic independence, which has thrown major road blocks into planning the region. This has been demonstrated by the lack of cooperation in transit planning and transportation planning in general. But as I said, there are positive aspects of maintaining a seperate municipal government. If we could only find a middle ground where a better degree of cooperation could take place.

[Acajack]

A few comments on Gatineau with respect to Ottawa...

I must say that when I moved to Gatineau I was very surprised at how self-contained (to the exclusion of Ottawa) most aspects of life were here. Especially socially. My dad (who lived and worked in Ottawa most of his professional life) used to say that many Gatineau coworkers would regularly cross over to Quebec for lunch. I didn't get it when I lived in Ottawa - but now I do. Sure, people from Gatineau go to Ottawa for stuff (some more than others) but for some reason it's not at all the same as someone from Orleans or Barrhaven going to downtown. Even before amalgamation and the Ottawa megacity, people in Kanata and Orleans pretty much considered themselves as "from Ottawa". Few people in Gatineau (except for some of our anglos and Franco-Ontarian "expats") would say they are "from Ottawa". When Franco-Ontarian relatives come to stay with us and phone friends back home and say "they're in Ottawa", my kids for some reason naturally find that weird. I am not sure kids in Orleans would think the same way. (Even pre-amalgamation.)

Now, the discussion about "dependence" is interesting because the vast majority of this is related to federal government jobs. People in Ottawa may see things differently but in Gatineau most don't see these as "Ottawa jobs" but rather "Canadian jobs". They just happen to be located in buildings in Ottawa. People in Gatineau don't see Dave from Kanata who works in IT at Portage as being dependent upon Gatineau and the Québécois nation, and so they don't on the other hand see the issue with Manon working for TBS at L'Esplanade Laurier either. The majority of people who hold down jobs on the Island of Hull (downtown Hull is an island, in case people don't know) are Ontario residents, but no one sees this as leeching off Gatineau or Quebec.

There is also some of the employment held in Ottawa by Gatinois that happens to be on that side of the river because of quirks of history or other reasons: Le Droit for example, Radio-Canada's French language operations for the region, the Civil Law Faculty at the University of Ottawa. The francophone component of the National Arts Centre's activities.

There is quite a bit of stuff in Ottawa (especially related to the French language) that would be on a much smaller scale or perhaps would not even exist if Gatineau was not there. Just think of La Cité collégiale for example.

[Acajack]

There is certainly a linguistic element regarding Gatineau and the confusion about language and politics in Quebec. That does give the false sense of civic independence, .

Except that the sense of civic independence is not false. It *IS* a separate city, with it's own administration, police, fire, etc. Different court system, different education system, different electrical system, different cable TV provider, different (main) operating language, different laws in some respects, etc.

[Acajack]

IMO Quebecois nationalism does play some role in Gatinois' false sense of independence. While many people are not separatists politically, they do feel a sense of Quebec as a distinct community (this is something a lot of English Canadians have difficulty understanding, they hear 'nationalism' and immediately think of political separatists) With a viewpoint like that the reality that your city is dependent on one outside of that distinct community is a hard pill to swallow.



With respect to sharing any new type of political structure with Ottawa, I think people in Gatineau are leery for a variety of reasons. First of all, there is a perception that Gatineau and the Quebec is an afterthought and even a dumping ground for stuff that Ottawa doesn't want in its backyard. And also that we are simply seen as a source for the four Ss: sex, ski, sand and suds.

I think most in Gatineau would rather run their own affairs as opposed to being Ottawa's "rump" even more than we are perceived to be at the moment.

If one looks at what happened to places like Vanier under the old RMOC and then the new city of Ottawa (huge social housing concentration leading to a disaster for the established community), much of Gatineau has great potential for this type of mess but on a much larger scale.

There is also of course the question of bilingualism within any shared structure, and the perception that Ottawa talks the talk on bilingualism but doesn't walk the walk: lots of bilingual signage à la RUE/STREET but frontline bilingual services are often non-existent or hit and miss at best. My kids picked up just by themselves at a very young age that unless you are in a federal museum or a caisse populaire, when you go to Ottawa you gotta speak English.

[J.OT13]

Does anyone have examples of rapid transit systems that cross different jurisdictions?

Although the whole independence and français vs. English is a huge obstacle, it seems to me that the simple fact that Gatineau has the STO and Ottawa has OC is a bigger issue. The question of who pays what in both capital and operating costs is a pretty important one. Of course the fact that both sides of the river are different provinces would cause big problems when it comes to funding.

Most (if not all) transit systems that seamlessly cross boarders is usually operated by a regional transit service, sort of like OC Transpo pre amalgamation, Translink in Vancouver (provincially funded), GO Transit in TO (100% provincially funded) and the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District.

[Acajack]

Does anyone have examples of rapid transit systems that cross different jurisdictions?

Although the whole independence and français vs. English is a huge obstacle, it seems to me that the simple fact that Gatineau has the STO and Ottawa has OC is a bigger issue. The question of who pays what in both capital and operating costs is a pretty important one. Of course the fact that both sides of the river are different provinces would cause big problems when it comes to funding.

Most (if not all) transit systems that seamlessly cross boarders is usually operated by a regional transit service, sort of like OC Transpo pre amalgamation, Translink in Vancouver (provincially funded), GO Transit in TO (100% provincially funded) and the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District.


I believe that in the NYC area much of the transit is integrated across state borders.

Windsor Transit crosses into Detroit for some lines I am pretty sure.

And there are many transit systems across country borders in Europe:

Lille, France into Belgium
Sarrebruck, Germany into France
Geneva, Switzerland and neighbouring France
Basel, Switzerland and neighbouring France and Germany

[Uhuniau]

I believe that in the NYC area much of the transit is integrated across state borders.

Washington, D.C., into Virginia and Maryland:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/DC_Metro_Map_2013.svg/1000px-DC_Metro_Map_2013.svg.png

[Schattenjager]

Minneapolis St Paul Subway system, two cities, two states (Wisconsin & Minnesota).

[gjhall]

Minneapolis St Paul Subway system, two cities, two states (Wisconsin & Minnesota).

Minneapolis and St Paul are both in Minnesota.

Kenosha and Miwaukee in Wisconsin do have some commuter rail service from Chicago.

The New York/NJ/CT/northeast Pennsylvania area certainly has cross-jurisdictional transit, though there is some fragmentation within it, of course.

[Acajack]

Minneapolis and St Paul are both in Minnesota.

Kenosha and Miwaukee in Wisconsin do have some commuter rail service from Chicago.

The New York/NJ/CT/northeast Pennsylvania area certainly has cross-jurisdictional transit, though there is some fragmentation within it, of course.

You are right but there is actually a small portion of the Twin Cities metro that is in Wisconson. But yeah the two main cities and most of the metro is in one state.

[Schattenjager]

Minneapolis and St Paul are both in Minnesota.

Kenosha and Miwaukee in Wisconsin do have some commuter rail service from Chicago.

The New York/NJ/CT/northeast Pennsylvania area certainly has cross-jurisdictional transit, though there is some fragmentation within it, of course.

Oops, that assumption had been based on simply eyeing the map on Google Maps, my bad.

[Capital Shaun]

With respect to sharing any new type of political structure with Ottawa, I think people in Gatineau are leery for a variety of reasons. First of all, there is a perception that Gatineau and the Quebec is an afterthought and even a dumping ground for stuff that Ottawa doesn't want in its backyard. And also that we are simply seen as a source for the four Ss: sex, ski, sand and suds.

I think most in Gatineau would rather run their own affairs as opposed to being Ottawa's "rump" even more than we are perceived to be at the moment.

If one looks at what happened to places like Vanier under the old RMOC and then the new city of Ottawa (huge social housing concentration leading to a disaster for the established community), much of Gatineau has great potential for this type of mess but on a much larger scale.

There is also of course the question of bilingualism within any shared structure, and the perception that Ottawa talks the talk on bilingualism but doesn't walk the walk: lots of bilingual signage à la RUE/STREET but frontline bilingual services are often non-existent or hit and miss at best. My kids picked up just by themselves at a very young age that unless you are in a federal museum or a caisse populaire, when you go to Ottawa you gotta speak English.

Is Gatineau paranoid they'll lose all their autonomy if they cooperate with Ottawa on transportation and transit issues?

Isn't the concentration of social housing in Overbrook?

And seriously, I cant imagine how Gatineau would ever become a huge swatch of social housing.

And I object to your last sentence. As a francophone I am pleasantly surprised how often I can get french service in Ottawa (public and private sector) but I can admit It's not consistent. There's a limited number of bilingual workers around and a huge chunk of them are in the federal public service.

[J.OT13]

Is Gatineau paranoid they'll lose all their autonomy if they cooperate with Ottawa on transportation and transit issues?

Isn't the concentration of social housing in Overbrook?

And seriously, I cant imagine how Gatineau would ever become a huge swatch of social housing.

And I object to your last sentence. As a francophone I am pleasantly surprised how often I can get french service in Ottawa (public and private sector) but I can admit It's not consistent. There's a limited number of bilingual workers around and a huge chunk of them are in the federal public service.

I could understand why they wouldn't want to amalgamate with Ottawa, unless it's absolutely necessary (Québec separates) but I believe that there should be one transit authority in the region.

As for French service on the Ottawa side (or English service on the Gatineau side), I never noticed; I always revert to the default language of the respective province.

[eternallyme]

Washington, D.C., into Virginia and Maryland:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/DC_Metro_Map_2013.svg/1000px-DC_Metro_Map_2013.svg.png

It's true that there is a major rail system, but most of the bus systems are separate. Montgomery, Prince George's, Fairfax, Arlington, etc. all have separate transit systems.

Another example: St. Louis - at least their LRT - goes between Illinois and Missouri.

[lrt's friend]

Except that the sense of civic independence is not false. It *IS* a separate city, with it's own administration, police, fire, etc. Different court system, different education system, different electrical system, different cable TV provider, different (main) operating language, different laws in some respects, etc.

This may be true but Ottawa-Gatineau is for the most part one economic unit, and one metropolitan area. Ontario and Quebec residents routinely cross the boundary for work and play and we need to plan accordingly. The federal government as the biggest employer and by policy encourages this interaction between the residents of the two cities. The municipal and provincial governments fail to consider the realities of the metropolitan area. This is partly the result of the linguistic divide but also a degree of hostility from nationalist Quebec governments. There is the need for the federal government to show some leadership but from what I observed over the years, Conservative governments tend to neglect this leadership role. As result, there is no consistent ongoing planning of the metropolitan area. It is hit and miss depending on who is in power. This is reflected in the inability to get a new interprovincial bridge off the ground and building a disjointed and incompatible rapid transit network that will never cross the boundary even though this may be the most critical need in the long term. It is a demonstration of failure of the current planning system (especially compared to a similar example in Washington DC), and I believe this failure is getting worse to the point of planning paralysis.

[eternallyme]

This may be true but Ottawa-Gatineau is for the most part one economic unit, and one metropolitan area. Ontario and Quebec residents routinely cross the boundary for work and play and we need to plan accordingly. The federal government as the biggest employer and by policy encourages this interaction between the residents of the two cities. The municipal and provincial governments fail to consider the realities of the metropolitan area. This is partly the result of the linguistic divide but also a degree of hostility from nationalist Quebec governments. There is the need for the federal government to show some leadership but from what I observed over the years, Conservative governments tend to neglect this leadership role. As result, there is no consistent ongoing planning of the metropolitan area. It is hit and miss depending on who is in power. This is reflected in the inability to get a new interprovincial bridge off the ground and building a disjointed and incompatible rapid transit network that will never cross the boundary even though this may be the most critical need in the long term.

That is one huge mistake by residents and governments mostly! And all parties are guilty there.

[Capital Shaun]

I could understand why they wouldn't want to amalgamate with Ottawa, unless it's absolutely necessary (Québec separates) but I believe that there should be one transit authority in the region.

I don't think any kind of political amalgamation is in the cards.
I also support a single transit authority. And I speak as someone who's been using both bus systems for 5 years.

As for French service on the Ottawa side (or English service on the Gatineau side), I never noticed; I always revert to the default language of the respective province.

Maybe I was spoiled after living in Vanier for seven years. I had little trouble getting French service in many local businesses.

[Acajack]

Is Gatineau paranoid they'll lose all their autonomy if they cooperate with Ottawa on transportation and transit issues?

.

There is a difference between collaborating and merging the two systems. I agree that collaboration has been insufficient and even dismal but I don't think Gatineau is solely to blame. Gatineau may be churlish about its turf and keeping its own prerogatives but Ottawa often has the attitude that Gatineau should simply follow its lead and STFU.

[Capital Shaun]

This may be true but Ottawa-Gatineau is for the most part one economic unit, and one metropolitan area. Ontario and Quebec residents routinely cross the boundary for work and play and we need to plan accordingly. The federal government as the biggest employer and by policy encourages this interaction between the residents of the two cities. The municipal and provincial governments fail to consider the realities of the metropolitan area. This is partly the result of the linguistic divide but also a degree of hostility from nationalist Quebec governments. There is the need for the federal government to show some leadership but from what I observed over the years, Conservative governments tend to neglect this leadership role. As result, there is no consistent ongoing planning of the metropolitan area. It is hit and miss depending on who is in power. This is reflected in the inability to get a new interprovincial bridge off the ground and building a disjointed and incompatible rapid transit network that will never cross the boundary even though this may be the most critical need in the long term. It is a demonstration of failure of the current planning system (especially compared to a similar example in Washington DC), and I believe this failure is getting worse to the point of planning paralysis.

Very good points! :worship:

[Acajack]

Isn't the concentration of social housing in Overbrook?



It's in both I think. And much of Overbrook is basically an extension of Vanier anyway.

[Capital Shaun]

There is a difference between collaborating and merging the two systems. I agree that collaboration has been insufficient and even dismal but I don't think Gatineau is solely to blame. Gatineau may be churlish about its turf and keeping its own prerogatives but Ottawa often has the attitude that Gatineau should simply follow its lead and STFU.

I'm not going to defend the politicians' approach from either side or level of government as it's been pretty terrible.

At the very least Ottawa & Gatineau could collaborate. I would have strongly supported OC Transpo adopting STO's Multi card but instead we had the province shoving Presto on us.

[Capital Shaun]

It's in both I think. And much of Overbrook is basically an extension of Vanier anyway.

There is some social housing in Vanier but it's not as concentrated as in Overbrook.

I've had family living in Vanier since at least the 1950's. They NEVER would have admitted that Overbrook was the same neighbourhood! ;)

But yes, today the whole area West of the Rideau river, North of the Queensway and East of Aviation is pretty much one big neighbourhood as they share common transportation issues, school districts, etc...

[Acajack]

Maybe I was spoiled after living in Vanier for seven years. I had little trouble getting French service in many local businesses.

I used to think and say the same thing. (Remember I spent all of my youth in what is today east end Ottawa.)

When I finally had my kids (who, owing to living in Quebec, were basically unilingual French until fairly recently), and actually having more situations where French was essential, it really opened my eyes to how little French service is available in downtown, Vanier, Orleans, etc. I've also had a unilingual French relative live with us for a while and once again - it really becomes clear how few service staff speak French when you're in a situation where defaulting to English (as we always do) is not really an option.

Not saying there is no French service in Ottawa. Of course there is. But the level is surprising low when you consider that it's the capital of the country, that 18% of the city is francophone, and a third of the metro is francophone.

Le Droit has actually run a series recently on French in Ottawa, and one of the articles actually found that French signage and service was actually more easy to find in St-Boniface in Winnipeg than it was in places like Orleans and Vanier.

[Acajack]

And seriously, I cant imagine how Gatineau would ever become a huge swatch of social housing.

.

I didn't mean all of Gatineau being a huge swathe of social housing, but rather huge swathes of Gatineau. There is a nuance there.

[Capital Shaun]

I didn't mean all of Gatineau being a huge swathe of social housing, but rather huge swathes of Gatineau. There is a nuance there.

Despite the nuance I still viewed that statement as an exaggeration.

I try to be realistic. I don't foresee Ottawa & Gatineau merging any time soon so I don't foresee Ottawa dumping anything on Gatineau.

[Capital Shaun]

I used to think and say the same thing. (Remember I spent all of my youth in what is today east end Ottawa.)

When I finally had my kids (who, owing to living in Quebec, were basically unilingual French until fairly recently), and actually having more situations where French was essential, it really opened my eyes to how little French service is available in downtown, Vanier, Orleans, etc. I've also had a unilingual French relative live with us for a while and once again - it really becomes clear how few service staff speak French when you're in a situation where defaulting to English (as we always do) is not really an option.

Not saying there is no French service in Ottawa. Of course there is. But the level is surprising low when you consider that it's the capital of the country, that 18% of the city is francophone, and a third of the metro is francophone.

Le Droit has actually run a series recently on French in Ottawa, and one of the articles actually found that French signage and service was actually more easy to find in St-Boniface in Winnipeg than it was in places like Orleans and Vanier.

I think one of the many reasons there's a lack of French services in Ottawa is that Gatineau isn't being considered in the equation by many organizations. 18% (Ottawa) vs a third (metro) is a big difference.

Another is despite a third of the metro being francophone and the feds having a significant preference for bilingual employees, many parents still don't get their kids to learn the 2nd language (usually French).

[lrt's friend]

That is one huge mistake by residents and governments mostly! And all parties are guilty there.

Agreed. You just have to listen to residents and politicians alike to realize that there needs to be a major attitude adjustment. It almost seems to be matter of pride to neglect interprovincial planning.

[lrt's friend]

I used to think and say the same thing. (Remember I spent all of my youth in what is today east end Ottawa.)

When I finally had my kids (who, owing to living in Quebec, were basically unilingual French until fairly recently), and actually having more situations where French was essential, it really opened my eyes to how little French service is available in downtown, Vanier, Orleans, etc. I've also had a unilingual French relative live with us for a while and once again - it really becomes clear how few service staff speak French when you're in a situation where defaulting to English (as we always do) is not really an option.

Not saying there is no French service in Ottawa. Of course there is. But the level is surprising low when you consider that it's the capital of the country, that 18% of the city is francophone, and a third of the metro is francophone.

Le Droit has actually run a series recently on French in Ottawa, and one of the articles actually found that French signage and service was actually more easy to find in St-Boniface in Winnipeg than it was in places like Orleans and Vanier.

I have said it before that Gatineau has become more French and Ottawa has become more English in recent years. Particularly, the French pockets of Ottawa, Lower Town, Vanier, Orleans and Cyrville have become diluted.

Even though 30% may be francophone, job competition has directed the bilingual work force into public service (at all levels) or jobs on the Quebec side of the river. The Ottawa side of the river has become predominately English and service particularly at the retail level reflects the overwhelming demand. French immersion is popular but Ottawa's population is quite transient and therefore most newcomers to the city will be less likely to be bilingual and many who benefited from French immersion will also leave for other cities. In other words, it is difficult to make real progress in Ottawa's Anglophone population towards becoming bilingual.

[Capital Shaun]

I have said it before that Gatineau has become more French and Ottawa has become more English in recent years. Particularly, the French pockets of Ottawa, Lower Town, Vanier, Orleans and Cyrville have become diluted.

Even though 30% may be francophone, job competition has directed the bilingual work force into public service (at all levels) or jobs on the Quebec side of the river. The Ottawa side of the river has become predominately English and service particularly at the retail level reflects the overwhelming demand. French immersion is popular but Ottawa's population is quite transient and therefore most newcomers to the city will be less likely to be bilingual and many who benefited from French immersion will also leave for other cities. In other words, it is difficult to make real progress in Ottawa's Anglophone population towards becoming bilingual.

When it comes to retail it's not that they're trying to meet some demand for English (almost everyone speaks it to an extent) but more likely that there's simply not enough bilingual workers to go around. When the public service gobbles up almost all the educated bilingual workers available there's not much left for other employment sectors to hire.

[waterloowarrior]

I think increasing transportation connections through transit (and more bridges ;) ) can potentially have major impacts on these cultural issues. Ease of access means more potential for personal and business connections. So many of our decisions depend on our perception of ease of access and travel, like where to shop, eat, go for appointments, attend events, or participate in sports. Even things like who we are friends with, where we work, and who we meet and eventually marry are shaped by these factors. Better integration and better connections will change the destiny of our region. I am not sure if it would encourage more francophone culture because of the better connections to Orleans, Vanier, etc or potentially lead to things like more anglophones moving to Quebec for cheaper housing. But I think there are lots of benefits of increased travel and interaction on both sides of the river.

Also, STO needs to get on Google transit directions.

[S-Man]

If the desire to amalgamate transit between the cities was at all possible, it would have been done some time in the past 50 years, by somebody.

I don't see anything happening or anyone coming along at any level of government on either side of the river to change this. Hasn't happened; isn't being discussed seriously.

It will, as it has always been, a pipe dream.

[Acajack]

If the desire to amalgamate transit between the cities was at all possible, it would have been done some time in the past 50 years, by somebody.

I don't see anything happening or anyone coming along at any level of government on either side of the river to change this. Hasn't happened; isn't being discussed seriously.

It will, as it has always been, a pipe dream.

That's pretty much it. Two distinct systems with interfaces in the downtowns of each city is what we are going to live with. Guess we should focus on making those interfaces as good as possible.

[Catenary]

Another example: St. Louis - at least their LRT - goes between Illinois and Missouri.

St. Louis Metro transit is run by the Bi-State Development Agency, and both buses and the LRT run across state lines. The buses don't even have state specific plates, just ones that say Bi-State Development Agency. The BSDA also runs one of the smaller local airports I believe. It is my opinion that this is one of the better examples of something Ottawa could do, based on the scale and similarities between the systems and how well it works in St. Louis.


Also, STO needs to get on Google transit directions.

This.

Between no Google Transit, a useless online planner and a mystifying next bus arrival phone system Gatineau is a transit black hole to me.

[harls]

I have said it before that Gatineau has become more French and Ottawa has become more English in recent years.

Aylmer has become more francophone for sure, and I've only been living here for six years.

However, if you go to a grocery store you're more likely to be served in English in this part of town if they detect a hint of anglo in you.

[Cre47]

Service on the corridor will start October 19th. The first weekend will be free. The real test will start on the 21st and we will know if the new hob-and-spoke system will work.

[Ottawan]

Aylmer has become more francophone for sure, and I've only been living here for six years.

However, if you go to a grocery store you're more likely to be served in English in this part of town if they detect a hint of anglo in you.

Harls - how will I know it's you now that your avatar is not this guy:

http://teatofriends.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/hugh-laurie-2512x2607-891kb-media-5451-media-164123-1297100102.jpg?w=231&h=240

I guess I'll just have to rely on your magical mod abilities...

[J.OT13]

Harls - how will I know it's you now that your avatar is not this guy:

http://teatofriends.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/hugh-laurie-2512x2607-891kb-media-5451-media-164123-1297100102.jpg?w=231&h=240

I guess I'll just have to rely on your magical mod abilities...

Ditto.

[Radster]

The new revised schedule is out, and looks like the petition from last fall did NOT work! Residents in East Gatineau, Buckingham, Masson etc will be in most part commuting for 45-60 minutes more per day with the Rapibus compared to now with the Express Bus system.

BIG FAIL as its anything but a RAPIbus, everyone calling it the LENTIbus.

Not to mention, many people will now be switching to taking their cars, and in turn the traffic on HWY 50 will get even worse.

http://www.petitions24.net/forum/67178

[eternallyme]

The new revised schedule is out, and looks like the petition from last fall did NOT work! Residents in East Gatineau, Buckingham, Masson etc will be in most part commuting for 45-60 minutes more per day with the Rapibus compared to now with the Express Bus system.

BIG FAIL as its anything but a RAPIbus, everyone calling it the LENTIbus.

Not to mention, many people will now be switching to taking their cars, and in turn the traffic on HWY 50 will get even worse.

http://www.petitions24.net/forum/67178

Agreed they should have kept the express buses from at least the eastern part of the region for now...it may boost ridership from old Gatineau west, but will depress ridership in east Gatineau.

[YOWetal]

The new revised schedule is out, and looks like the petition from last fall did NOT work! Residents in East Gatineau, Buckingham, Masson etc will be in most part commuting for 45-60 minutes more per day with the Rapibus compared to now with the Express Bus system.

BIG FAIL as its anything but a RAPIbus, everyone calling it the LENTIbus.

Not to mention, many people will now be switching to taking their cars, and in turn the traffic on HWY 50 will get even worse.

http://www.petitions24.net/forum/67178

45-60 minutes MORE per day? Is it really that big a change? How long is the commute now? Regardless, I doubt that many will actually start driving as I can't imagine many people who take the bus from there have a realistic choice of driving.

[lrt's friend]

45-60 minutes MORE per day? Is it really that big a change? How long is the commute now? Regardless, I doubt that many will actually start driving as I can't imagine many people who take the bus from there have a realistic choice of driving.

This is really an unacceptable argument. Rapid transit needs to speed up service and not do the opposite. And if somebody's destination is not downtown, they will switch to cars or car pooling if we make transit unacceptably slow. There is a limit to commute times that people will consider acceptable.

Commuting is a competitive market place. We have heard many instances where extended commutes have forced people into their cars and it is really hard to get them back once they make that decision. Believe me, because I am one of them.

If we want our transit system to be attractive, we have to measure it against travel times by car. The closer we get to car travel times, the more effective it will be.

[Aylmer]

Actually, the Rapibus is pretty fast - you can do 14km in just about 14 minutes.

The problem, is that the Rapibus skimped out on the only part that really mattered: DOWNTOWN (sound familiar?).

It takes as much time to get from Lacrosse to Montcalme (14km) than it does to get from there to the Rideau Centre (4km)... Considering that most people make their way to the cores, it isn't a recipe for success.

[Acajack]

45-60 minutes MORE per day? Is it really that big a change? How long is the commute now? Regardless, I doubt that many will actually start driving as I can't imagine many people who take the bus from there have a realistic choice of driving.

It won't likely have a short-term effect on ridership levels as people aren't going to go out and buy another car right away simply because of this. Also, downtown parking rates are unlikely to go down and for STO express pass users the premium fare is being eliminated so it will actually cost them less to go to work on the bus.

In the long-term though it may have an impact - perhaps more people will start using the Rapibus park and ride lots instead of walking to the bus stop from their house.

Also, someone made the comment about anyone not going downtown will not be using the bus anymore, but those people aren't using the bus anyway because all of the express routes in Gatineau sector, Buckingham and Masson-Angers are "portes fermées" as soon as they leave their catchment areas. So you actually drive by places of employment on your express bus at the moment but you can't get off there. So it's a rather moot point. At the moment, almost no one east of the Gatineau River uses transit to commute to jobs within this area (say from Buckingham to the area around Maloney), but with the Rapibus they could. Also, there is a huge amount of employment in Hull around St-Joseph, St-Raymond, Boulevard de la Carrière, and also Montcalm and Crémazie that at the moment is only accessible (realistically) by car. Rapibus opens up transit commuting to there as well.

There are problems for sure but it is not all bad news.

[Cre47]

I think the 45-60 minutes more a day is exaggerated a bit. The morning commute shouldn't be a big difference. The afternoon it will really depend on the connections though hopefully a bit of time is cut off with fewer buses on Rideau and Wellington. Maybe they should have followed the same routing as the 100 during the afternoon to avoid the Hwy 50 bound mess on Maisonneuve. I wish there would be more afternoon trips though on some of the local routes.

Speed limit is only 70 from what I've read while on some parts of the Transitway it is even as high as 90. Maybe because of the many at-grade intersections they cannot go higher than 70. I wish some spots the speed limit would be higher.

The Plani-Bus though needs improvement. They don't necessarily provide the faster trips, actually in a lot of cases too.

[Cre47]

Actually, the Rapibus is pretty fast - you can do 14km in just about 14 minutes.

The problem, is that the Rapibus skimped out on the only part that really mattered: DOWNTOWN (sound familiar?).

It takes as much time to get from Lacrosse to Montcalme (14km) than it does to get from there to the Rideau Centre (4km)... Considering that most people make their way to the cores, it isn't a recipe for success.

Actually in the afternoon, it can take as much as 30 minutes and even worse from Rideau Centre to TDC or Place D'Accueil. Hence the need to have a bus only lane on Wellington between the portage Bridge and Sussex Drive and prohibit motorists to turn right onto Laurier Street from the Portage Bridge (and/or to add or lengthen a turning right-lane) and more importantly prohibit tour buses to stop on Wellington during rush hour.

[Aylmer]

Well, as someone commented on the Radio-Canada story, the STO schedules are more suggestion than fact :D Yeah, for all the better non-peak service, simpler routes and WiFi in the buses, I don't see the Rapibus being a success, especially at $300M.

[J.OT13]

Actually, the Rapibus is pretty fast - you can do 14km in just about 14 minutes.

The problem, is that the Rapibus skimped out on the only part that really mattered: DOWNTOWN (sound familiar?).

It takes as much time to get from Lacrosse to Montcalme (14km) than it does to get from there to the Rideau Centre (4km)... Considering that most people make their way to the cores, it isn't a recipe for success.

History repeats itself. I don't see a solution for downtown coming anytime soon. Possibly 30+ years, just like Ottawa.

Is it really that fast, 14 kms in 14 mins? That's 60 km/h. Metro systems are usualy between 30-40 km/h. The Gatineau estimate sounds impossible. Are they not counting the buses stopping at stations? Or traffic lights?

[Aylmer]

I just double-checked it and it seems like it changed to 17-21 minutes (depending on when you leave) and 15 minutes to Downtown. So it has an average speed of 42km/h on the ROW, but it slows down to a sluggish 16km/h (speed of a leisurely bike ride) on a good day or 8km/h (a brisk walk) on a bad one.

Considering that the same error was made just across the river with the Transitway Downtown segment, HOW DID NO ONE AT THE CITY SEE THIS COMING???

What worries me is that they'll make the same mistake in the west of the city by building the Rapibus on the highway north of Aylmer (25% longer than current routes + 1 transfer) which will join up with the current Rapibus for the 8-16km/h segment. I would not be happy if we built a 300-million dollar system to make my commute longer and encourage sprawl to the north.

[Acajack]

Actually in the afternoon, it can take as much as 30 minutes and even worse from Rideau Centre to TDC or Place D'Accueil. Hence the need to have a bus only lane on Wellington between the portage Bridge and Sussex Drive and prohibit motorists to turn right onto Laurier Street from the Portage Bridge (and/or to add or lengthen a turning right-lane) and more importantly prohibit tour buses to stop on Wellington during rush hour.

This is very true, although on Wellington going west much of the problem is caused by STO buses themselves, and west of Bank on Wellington, it's *mostly* STO buses causing the congestion problem.

At the moment, on Wellington with the STO buses you have the same situation as on Albert and Slater with OC Transpo: every single peak-period bus going to every single neighbourhood in the city is there at the same time.

The switch to Rapibus for all of the area in Quebec east of the Gatineau River is supposed to reduce the number of buses on Rideau-Wellington by 25 to 30%., as neighbourhood (express) routes east of the Gatineau River will no longer exist.

This is not the case for routes going to Aylmer and Hull, pending a rapid transit solution for these areas of Gatineau.

But it should alleviate STO bus traffic and congestion on Wellington to a significant degree. At least I hope.

[Aylmer]

This is very true, although on Wellington going west much of the problem is caused by STO buses themselves, and west of Bank on Wellington, it's *mostly* STO buses causing the congestion problem.

...

The switch to Rapibus for all of the area in Quebec east of the Gatineau River is supposed to reduce the number of buses on Rideau-Wellington by 25 to 30%., as neighbourhood (express) routes east of the Gatineau River will no longer exist.

...

But it should alleviate STO bus traffic and congestion on Wellington to a significant degree. At least I hope.

That's very true. But the STO should definitely have dialogues with the city of Ottawa (which, as I've been told, they haven't) to create reserved bus lanes on Wellington; especially with the reduced number of buses, they could probably shave over five minutes off the time it takes to cross downtown and GPS-activated lights could actually make taking the bus advantageous.

But alas, until they actually make any efforts to accommodate it, the Rapibus will be very ineffective in making public transportation competitive with the automobile or improving any kind of mobility between the cores and Gatineau.

EDIT: That's actually not completely true: the bike path along the corridor will go a long way to making Gatineau more accessible by bike from mid-April to November.

[Acajack]

That's very true. But the STO should definitely have dialogues with the city of Ottawa (which, as I've been told, they haven't) to create reserved bus lanes on Wellington; especially with the reduced number of buses, they could probably shave over five minutes off the time it takes to cross downtown and GPS-activated lights could actually make taking the bus advantageous.

.

I am pretty sure these discussions have taken place in the past but the main stumbling block is the NCC which does not want to "deface" the prestigious parliamentary parade on Wellington with a bus lane. Of course, as we all know the status quo is no better, and on summer afternoons Wellington in front of the hill is already a mess of slow-moving or immobile cars, city buses, trucks and also tourist motorcoaches...

[harls]

Ditto.

Sorry.

[Dado]

Considering that the same error was made just across the river with the Transitway Downtown segment, HOW DID NO ONE AT THE CITY SEE THIS COMING???

That's because when it comes to rapid transit, Ottawa and Gatineau are Dumb and Dumber.

The very creation of Rapibus is pretty much a tripartite failure of coordination and creativity between Gatineau/STO, Ottawa and the NCC.

What is particularly galling about Rapibus though is that it was justified partly on the basis of the "single seat ride" (just as was the Transitway) but it hasn't even opened and they are already switching it to a hub-and-spoke model of operation - just as it would if it ran as LRT.

[Radster]

I have a question regarding the Rapibus. Right now, all buses on Maissonneuve use the bus lane between HWY 50 and Portage Bridge. As of next week, once Rapibus starts running, in the PM, all the 100 and 200 busses will be turning left from Maissonneuve onto Allumetieres. Every 6 minutes there will be 3 articulated busses turning left, in heavy stop&go Maissonneuve traffic. They will have to make their way from the bus lane on the right, to the turning lane on the left in a congested Maissonneuve. Thats problem 1, how is STO planning addressing this?

Problem 2 is Allumetieres between Montcalm Rapibus station and Maisonneuve. Are they installing bus-only lanes on Allumetieres in this section? Are they planning to restrict parking during the rush hour on this section? Because this section of Allumetieres does get clogged up Ottawa(East)-bound in the AM and Gatineau(West)-bound in the PM.

I guess the above 2 problems are exactly why Aylmer is saying that the portion between Montcalm station and downtown Ottawa has such a horribly slow average speed.

[Radster]

I think the 45-60 minutes more a day is exaggerated a bit. The morning commute shouldn't be a big difference. The afternoon it will really depend on the connections though hopefully a bit of time is cut off with fewer buses on Rideau and Wellington. Maybe they should have followed the same routing as the 100 during the afternoon to avoid the Hwy 50 bound mess on Maisonneuve. I wish there would be more afternoon trips though on some of the local routes.

Speed limit is only 70 from what I've read while on some parts of the Transitway it is even as high as 90. Maybe because of the many at-grade intersections they cannot go higher than 70. I wish some spots the speed limit would be higher.

The Plani-Bus though needs improvement. They don't necessarily provide the faster trips, actually in a lot of cases too.

Its not exaggerated. People who take the 88 express now, are saying this! It takes them 25 minutes to get downtown in the AM using the 88, but with Rapibus, it will take them 20 minutes longer in the AM via two busses.
It takes them 35 minutes to return home in the PM on the 88, but with the Rapibus it will take them 60 minutes. Thats 45 minutes more per day, and that is the best case scenario, there are others who will be commuting up to 60 minutes longer, bases on their study of the newly released schedules.

[Acajack]

I have a question regarding the Rapibus. Right now, all buses on Maissonneuve use the bus lane between HWY 50 and Portage Bridge. As of next week, once Rapibus starts running, in the PM, all the 100 and 200 busses will be turning left from Maissonneuve onto Allumetieres. Every 6 minutes there will be 3 articulated busses turning left, in heavy stop&go Maissonneuve traffic. They will have to make their way from the bus lane on the right, to the turning lane on the left in a congested Maissonneuve. Thats problem 1, how is STO planning addressing this?

Problem 2 is Allumetieres between Montcalm Rapibus station and Maisonneuve. Are they installing bus-only lanes on Allumetieres in this section? Are they planning to restrict parking during the rush hour on this section? Because this section of Allumetieres does get clogged up Ottawa(East)-bound in the AM and Gatineau(West)-bound in the PM.

I guess the above 2 problems are exactly why Aylmer is saying that the portion between Montcalm station and downtown Ottawa has such a horribly slow average speed.

Point of clarification - Rapibus route 100 which will start in Vieux-Hull won't be going up Allumettières to the Rapibus ROW eastbound in the PM peak. It will be going down Allumettières (southbound), right on Maisonneuve to Portage and then to the Terrasses and then up Montcalm to join the ROW.

So most of the 100's routing will be in the opposite direction of peak traffic.

But you are correct that the 200 which is the Ottawa-only Rapibus route (with no stops at Portage) will be turning left at Allumettières in the PM peak.

And yes, buses only lanes are planned for Boulevard des Allumettières.