Location of Ottawa's NHL Arena [Archive]

View Full Version : Location of Ottawa's NHL Arena

steve81

May 13, 2007, 5:28 AM

I'm not from Ottawa (lived in the region for 4 months several years ago and would love to return), but I'm amazed how far away the Scotiabank Place is from downtown. Got this from Wikipedia:

Although widely acknowledged as a well-designed arena, it has been criticized in the years since construction for being difficult to reach. It is located in the far west-end of Ottawa, which puts it at a fair distance from some parts of the National Capital Region, especially from the east-end of Ottawa or from the Outaouais region. Difficulties are compounded by frequent traffic congestion at game time. Another problem is the isolation of the arena from many restaurants and bars, which makes it difficult for celebrations to continue naturally after the game as in many other more centrally located arenas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotiabank_Place

Here is what I would have proposed instead:

http://www.omni-gamer.com/arena.jpg

The current arena was built in 1996, so it is quite recent. But should Ottawa think about moving the NHL arena downtown in the future? What do you think?

waterloowarrior

May 13, 2007, 6:03 AM

you can read about some of the background in these links

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=d9b23914-b036-474c-8467-a91c72ac7327

http://dramatispersonae.org/MoreOnPoliticsMediaAndBusiness.html

http://dramatispersonae.org/MoreOnPoliticsMediaAndBusiness_files/image002.jpg

this was what they wanted to put there at first...

in the next while the area will be developed

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pdc/2003/02-27/ACS2003-DEV-POL-0011_files/image032.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pdc/2003/02-27/ACS2003-DEV-POL-0011.htm

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2006/04-12/pec/ACS2006-PGM-APR-0003.htm

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2006/05-24/trc/ACS2006-PGM-POL-0032.htm

raisethehammer

May 13, 2007, 12:15 PM

it's brutal. right up there with jersey meadowlands.
Go Sabres!!

Berklon

May 13, 2007, 2:08 PM

401_King

May 13, 2007, 2:25 PM

lol...too bad

AuxTown

May 13, 2007, 2:45 PM

It is too bad how far away the arena is from downtown; but do you know what else would be too bad??....If we didn't have a team at all. The Ottawa Senators were born in the early 90's, a time in the NHL when small markets were losing their teams and only the oldest, most storied, and most popular teams were turning a profit. Many different locations were studied as a possiblilty for the new NHL arena but none, as it turned out, were financially or practically feasible. For many of the downtown sites there wasn't enough roads or infrastructure servicing the site. It would have cost in the ballpark of a billion dollars to expropriate lands and build some kind of expressway to get there. While the arena location is not ideal, I think that if owners were facing any more debt than they already were in the late 1990's (when the Sens had a bit of a crisis and almost left town), I'll bet the team would have left for good. With the Sens up 2-0 on Buffalo and coming home for games 2 and 3, I can't help but imagine what may have happened if short-sighted people had their way, and Ottawa made the mistake of building a downtown arena. We are a much smaller market than Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver, we don't have the benefit of facilities and infrastructure that Calgary has from hosting the Olympics in '88, and we don't have a second rate arena like Edmonton. I, for one, have no problem driving the 21 minutes from downtown Ottawa to Kanata for a game and will continue to support the Senators and their suburban arena.

steve81

May 13, 2007, 3:28 PM

I guess the context of the early 1990's explains it well. Still, it could have been closer, maybe not downtown, but closer. An arena downtown would be a good thing for downtown Ottawa, if they can provide enough parking. But yes, it would cost a lot. So it's not for now, but could be something to think about for the future.

401_King

May 13, 2007, 4:06 PM

boo sens, nobody likes you, even downtown ottawa wants to be as far away from you as possible! :D

but seriously, look at that picture. thats sad. theres an arena in the middle of nowhere, literally, theres nothing!!!!!!! i see a couple of farms and some roads and a cornfield...LOL...and as most of you know, in other cities with arenas downtown, a lot of ppl leave the game and mingle into the street life, go to bars for a drink, do touristy things if your making it a day trip for downtown.....i sure hope parking is free at that arena.... from that pic it looks like people have no choice but to drive to the game, and drive wherever they are going. its really too bad. it makes me appreciate the ACC and skydome a million times more.

WZ1

May 13, 2007, 4:12 PM

401_King

May 13, 2007, 4:20 PM

401_king..

Where are the leafs again? Golfing? Probably loosing at that as well mind you.. oh and last i checked hockey was about winning, not where the arena is.. the leafs sure havent benefited on the score board by playing on Bay and Lakeshore..

yea we've never benefited for sure, we only knocked out the sens, like what, 4 times in the playoffs while playing at ACC???? can you clarify this for me, oh so great suburban senator fan? thanks for trying ! anyways your attempt to rationalize the (bad) location of the arena is by bashing the leafs is so funny. im trying to argue that the location kills post game culture in downtown areas, i could care less if the sport is hockey or curling or whatever. your trying to get personal with the leafs and be like "hockey is about winning", "golfing" and make that your argument....think about what ur saying...so funny!

oh wait ur from hamilton...LOL...yo, get an NHL team first, then you can start being a hater!

matt602

May 13, 2007, 4:46 PM

Hamilton has a hockey team. It is in the playoffs and has already destroyed one team. The next one looks like it's gonna go the same way (I think the series is being lead 3-0). Our AHL team is doing better than the Leafs have done in many years.

Now of course, this isn't really a thread to debate who's hockey team is better. It's about how Ottawa's arena is in a stupid place :)

401_King

May 13, 2007, 4:49 PM

you Hamiltonians crack me up!!!!!11

BCTed

May 13, 2007, 4:50 PM

WZ1

May 13, 2007, 5:03 PM

BCTed

May 13, 2007, 5:06 PM

than your dumber than I thought..

then you're

WZ1, you definitely fit in well as an honourary Hamiltonian.

401_King

May 13, 2007, 5:14 PM

Born and raised in Ottawa 19 Years, moved to Toronto, 5 years, moved to Hamilton, 3 months.. if that makes me a Hamiltonian, or of less significance.. than you are dumber than I thought..

P.S. leaf fans need to stop clinging on the past.. i mean your speaking about history here.. the last time the leafs won the cup you wernt even a cum stain on your mothers dress.

and the last time the sens won a cup was....NEVER! who cares! its not like im losing sleep over the leafs!

lol i love how you just changed ur grammar to sound less stupid than you already are. yo, this thread is about ottawa's NHL arena... look what u started bringing the leafs into this! i tried to explain to you, that you are trying to justify that ottawa's arena location is good because a team which happens to play there wins, and downtown locations are overrated (north america wide) because one team in all of pro sports (which you pointed out as the sole basis of your argument) in north america called "leafs" (only one of the 4 teams that play at ACC's location) haven't won in a while . thats what you said, no? i dont think location and wins are correlated. i think locations and street life ARE correlated! from a 24 year old, i would expect better than this crap!...

thats also typical ppl only exposed to 1 sport for you..always bringing up hockey to base their arguments when they have nothing else to watch. the ACC has other sports too you know!

ok BACK to topic. when was that arena built and where did the sens play before?

upinottawa

May 13, 2007, 5:52 PM

The Senators' temporary home was the Civic Centre at Landsdowne Park.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Civic_Centre

Ottawa last won the Stanley Cup in 1927. I believe Ottawa has won the cup eight times.

TheMeltyMan

May 13, 2007, 5:56 PM

Can't you just blow up the Rideau Centre and put the new stadium up there?

BlackRedGold

May 13, 2007, 5:57 PM

From a year ago:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Palladiumottawafromair.jpg/800px-Palladiumottawafromair.jpg

Don't know if it's changed much since, but I can imagine how pissed people are to travel to the boonies to attend the games.

That image is kind of misleading since it shows the area west of the arena and not east.

Since the rink was built Palladium Drive has had plenty of development on it and the streets that run off it. Several huge high tech manufacturing plants, multiple high rise office buildings, big box stores and auto dealerships have all shown up since then. And development is underway on large housing developments to the north and south of it.

As well, the land directly to the east of it has the Carp River running through and is basically a marsh. One guy who tried to walk from the nearby Home Depot to the rink through the "field" had to be rescued when he got trapped in the wetland.

shappy

May 13, 2007, 6:08 PM

it's certainly a poor choice of location... tough to argue against that.

AuxTown

May 13, 2007, 6:09 PM

This image from Google Maps shows the area surrounding Scotiabank Place to the East http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.306467,-75.906858&spn=0.027527,0.05785&t=h&z=14&om=1. I agree that there is very little to the West of the arena (not for long) but that is because it was built on the western edge of Kanata (a suburb of 80,000 people). There are plans for a tremendous amount of development in the areas around Palladium Drive as well as an expansion of the Queensway to 6 lanes.

Deez

May 13, 2007, 6:32 PM

All financial nonsense aside, the arena should have been built on Lebreton Flats. There's more (way more) than enough land, it's right next to downtown, and the transitway runs right through the site. You would've had an ideal central location that pretty much forces you to use transit and that would have greatly accelerated development on the site.

The problem was that the land was and is owned by the NCC and that the site was contaminated from past industrial uses...so of course there were extra costs involved (including the cost of delaying by having to deal with the NCC). But then again, I have more than an inkling that the ACC in T.O. was built on former industrial land.

Here's a shot of the land:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=ottawa&ie=UTF8&ll=45.418365,-75.708718&spn=0.016176,0.039911&t=k&z=15&om=1

(It can be identified in the pic as the land to the west that's being dug up...fortunately the land is now being put to somewhat reasonable use)

BTW, Steve there are a few problems with your plan. Firstly that area's topography wouldn't suit a large building like an arena; there's a downhill grade towards Rideau. Second, the land that would be occupied by the parking facility is owned (for the most part) by the University of Ottawa and they wouldn't give it up. Thirdly, there are several beautiful Victorian-era homes in that area that would never get the go-ahead to be demolished (you're basically wiping out 3 large residential blocks)...although there is a homeless shelter and a gawdawful apt building I'd like to see go.

raisethehammer

May 13, 2007, 7:11 PM

Go Sabres!!

steve81

May 13, 2007, 7:14 PM

Thanks for the info Deez. Lebreton Flats would be a very good location. But I guess the NCC would never approve that.

BTW, I also thought about building it in the area to the right, between Cumberland and King Edward. Don't know if it that would work better.

As for the University of Ottawa, they might enjoy the parking spaces it would provide.

TheMeltyMan

May 13, 2007, 7:15 PM

I think you should build a new stadium from the bones of the homeless.

spotlight

May 13, 2007, 8:23 PM

matt602

May 13, 2007, 8:51 PM

The current series is tied 2-2.

My mistake then... I had read in the View that it was at 2-0 earlier in the week, overhead we won another game and wasn't sure about last night's game.

ok I'm done hijacking the thread :\

steve81

May 13, 2007, 9:23 PM

The perfect downtown location is just that: PERFECT..

The massive DND building downtown: next to the rideau centre, congress centre, transitway...etc... has been looking for a buyer for the past 10 years.

this site is massive !!!!!!!!!! and could easily fit a 20 000 seat arena.. all you need to do is buy the building, blow it up and replace it with the arena..

It would fit there for sure (including some indoor parking), very interesting spot. They could connect it underground to the Rideau Centre. And you would see it when skating on the Rideau Canal!

adam-machiavelli

May 13, 2007, 10:22 PM

raisethehammer

May 13, 2007, 10:42 PM

It's ok that the arena was built in the 'burbs. The people that go to Sens games are generally the urban-phobic types. If the arena was built on Lebreton Flats, they'd come just before the game started, dump endless money into frivolous security systems for their cars, then flee to the suburbs asap after the game ended. No economic benefit to downtown Ottawa, just congestion.

hmmm, this might help me understand why the ottawa fans insisted on booing the best hockey player in the world every time he touched the puck during the series against Pittsburgh.
Also explains why they yell and scream for a penalty everytime someone on the other team blows their nose.
I feel like I'm watching a game from Alabama whenever I see a game in Kanata (or wherever the heck it is).
Build the arena downtown and maybe you'd get some real hockey fans showing up instead of the current crew.

AuxTown

May 13, 2007, 11:34 PM

hmmm, this might help me understand why the ottawa fans insisted on booing the best hockey player in the world every time he touched the puck during the series against Pittsburgh.
Also explains why they yell and scream for a penalty everytime someone on the other team blows their nose.
I feel like I'm watching a game from Alabama whenever I see a game in Kanata (or wherever the heck it is).
Build the arena downtown and maybe you'd get some real hockey fans showing up instead of the current crew.

We were booing at Crosby because he whined and cried after every single play. If he wants to get any respect from the fans, the refs, as well as the vetern players of the league he needs to shut his mouth once in a while. There's no debate that he is one of the most talented players to ever play in this league but he is quickly getting a reputation as a cry-baby. Watch a few Pittsburgh games and tell me you don't get a little bit annoyed by his constant yapping.....luckily we only had to watch 5.

SteelTown

May 14, 2007, 12:38 AM

I've avoided peeking into this thread lol. Brings back history lessons when Ottawa and Hamilton both wanted an NHL team in the early 1990's. Hamilton had just built Copps in the downtown core and well Ottawa had no arena. Guess who got a team? lol

Brrrr

401_King

May 14, 2007, 1:10 AM

i hope one day hamilton will get its team. the ontario rivalries will be intense!

the dude

May 14, 2007, 1:38 AM

i always chuckle whenever i drive past the arena. they couldn't have built it any further from the city if they tried! the flats is where it should have been built but it's too damned late now. or they could have demolished landsdowne and built it there. it's easy to be a revisionist.

raisethehammer

May 14, 2007, 1:39 AM

ottawa fans shouldn't be talking about whining and yapping.
if that's all he ever did, you should have given him an honourary key to the city or something. Sounds like he'd fit right in.

the dude

May 14, 2007, 1:53 AM

try living in ottawa: you'd whine, too. i lived there for two years and loved it but the bureaucracy blew my mind. things just don't get done in that town the way they should.

BlackRedGold

May 14, 2007, 4:12 AM

i always chuckle whenever i drive past the arena. they couldn't have built it any further from the city if they tried!

FYI, you'd have to drive another 25+ km west on the 417 before you leave Ottawa. So they could have built it a lot further out if they wanted.

And what everyone seems to forget is that the original plan for the rink was to be part of a mixed use development called West Terrace. But the clueless NDP government squashed that. The only way it was financially viable to build an NHL rink when other cities in the US were giving them away for free was to use the profits from other developments centered around it to pay for it.

shappy

May 14, 2007, 4:24 AM

upinottawa

May 14, 2007, 1:23 PM

Game day bus service to Scotiabank Place:

http://www.octranspo.com/mapscheds/tripplanning/ScotiaBank_Place/Maps/Connexion400_map.pdf

keninhalifax

May 14, 2007, 1:38 PM

There is still a site at the west end of LeBreton Flats which is owned by the NCC and would be a prime location for the arena. It is located at the northern terminus of the current O-Train and is also serviced by the Transitway. There was a proposal some time ago to build a new central library or national cultural institution here, but those plans seem to have fallen through.

AuxTown

May 14, 2007, 2:49 PM

is there a bus route that goes by there? Or some kind of shuttle service during events (including a hockey game)?

I just keep thinking about how weird it would be if Ottawa wins the cup at home... the party from the arena would spill out onto a parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

While there are 20,000 people in Scotiabank Place watching the game, there are way more than that in downtown bars and pubs watching as well. WHEN we win the cup, the party will definately be downtown in the market. Those at the game I'm sure will drive downtown and then party all night!

upinottawa

May 14, 2007, 5:50 PM

I was looking forward to a parade down the Queensway....

YOWflier

May 14, 2007, 6:05 PM

hmmm, this might help me understand why the ottawa fans insisted on booing the best hockey player in the world every time he touched the puck during the series against Pittsburgh.
Also explains why they yell and scream for a penalty everytime someone on the other team blows their nose.
I feel like I'm watching a game from Alabama whenever I see a game in Kanata (or wherever the heck it is).
Build the arena downtown and maybe you'd get some real hockey fans showing up instead of the current crew.Your post is almost as stupid as the one you quoted in reference. Believe me, that's hard to accomplish so ... congratulations.

As for the Arena location ... no sense in trying to defend the indefensible. It sucks, plain and simple.

YOWflier

May 14, 2007, 6:07 PM

WHEN we win the cup, the party will definately be downtown in the market.As it was on Saturday after the OT win. It was total pandemonium in the Market after the game.

raisethehammer

May 14, 2007, 7:55 PM

Your post is almost as stupid as the one you quoted in reference. Believe me, that's hard to accomplish so ... congratulations.

As for the Arena location ... no sense in trying to defend the indefensible. It sucks, plain and simple.

lol...at least you didn't try to defend the goofball fans in your city....make fun of our posts all you want.

YOWflier

May 14, 2007, 8:27 PM

lol...at least you didn't try to defend the goofball fans in your cityNah, I'm sure the goofballs can defend themselves. More of them probably would but I think they're just too busy still watching hockey to notice or care about your ramblings.

harls

May 14, 2007, 9:05 PM

is there a bus route that goes by there? Or some kind of shuttle service during events (including a hockey game)?

transit buses have reserved diamond lanes to the arena.. usually there's tons of buses there. I usually head to Local Heroes or Darcy McGee's in Bell's Corners before the game, they have chartered buses to the arena for a couple of bucks... saves parking in that enormous lot.

shappy

May 15, 2007, 12:19 AM

O-Town Hockey, yeah, I figured downtown gets crazy but you know what I'm saying... getting in your car and sitting in traffic after watching your team win the cup would kinda suck hard. Sitting on a bus would be more fun, but still...

the dude

May 15, 2007, 1:34 AM

actually, riding the bus back to town after a game is a lot of fun. can't believe i just said that.

senators just won...damn.

adam-machiavelli

May 15, 2007, 2:26 AM

I'm so excited about that 1-0 win tonight. But I'm petrified if the Sens have to take on Detroit.

vid

May 15, 2007, 2:36 AM

Scotiabank Place must be lonely out there in Kanata... :pet:

It needs some friends. Let's add a Walmart and some tacky chain motels!! Maybe a Montana's or Boston Pizza too!! Yay suburban blandness!!

AuxTown

May 15, 2007, 2:37 AM

lol...at least you didn't try to defend the goofball fans in your city....make fun of our posts all you want.

In my opinion, Ottawa has some of the best and most hockey savvy fans in the NHL. We're not a bunch of bandwagon jumpers like in Buffalo or Pittsburgh and when we boo we boo for a reason. We deserve a cup in this city after 10 straight years in the playoffs and it appears we are closer than ever. Go Sens Go!

raisethehammer

May 15, 2007, 3:01 AM

WZ1

May 15, 2007, 3:21 AM

Stanz

May 15, 2007, 3:55 AM

Scotiabank Place must be lonely out there in Kanata... :pet:

It needs some friends. Let's add a Walmart and some tacky chain motels!! Maybe a Montana's or Boston Pizza too!! Yay suburban blandness!!

Scotiabank, erm, Corel Center, is in the middle of nowhere. Kanata has all the usual chains, a lotta hi-tech shit, and is actually pretty nice if you're rich and hate french speaking Ottawatonians.

migo

May 15, 2007, 10:08 AM

Scotiabank, erm, Corel Center, is in the middle of nowhere. Kanata has all the usual chains, a lotta hi-tech shit, and is actually pretty nice if you're rich and hate french speaking Ottawatonians.

The only other NHL arena that is "in the middle of nowhere" is the Jobing.com arena, home of the Coyotes. It is approximately 17.6 miles from downtown Phoenix. Do a http://maps.live.com/ comparison.

upinottawa

May 15, 2007, 1:23 PM

The Palace of Auburn Hills is about 26 miles north of downtown Detroit. Also, the New Jersey Devils and Nets do not exactly play in the "middle of somewhere", although that will change soon for the Devils.

The Florida Panthers are not exactly located in downtown Miami either....

I have no interest in defending the location of Scotiabank Place (I both live and work downtown and I would attend a lot more games but for the 40 minute bus ride to the rink), but Ottawa is not getting a new NHL facility for at least another 40 years so....

AuxTown

May 15, 2007, 6:45 PM

deserve a cup?? why? for folding like a cheap tent everytime the senior citizen Maple Leaf squad showed up in the playoffs??

Hey on the bright side, wed night should be the last beautiful spring night I have to sit inside suffering through another non contact, boring playoff game.

How could you call those games non-contact. I agree that the Sabres are a bunch of pansies with no grit whatsoever but you can't say that the Sens haven't thrown any big hits! I think Volchenkov has thrown more in the playoffs than any Leaf player from the entire regular season. Hope your boys are enjoying the golf season.

raisethehammer

May 15, 2007, 7:08 PM

How could you call those games non-contact. I agree that the Sabres are a bunch of pansies with no grit whatsoever but you can't say that the Sens haven't thrown any big hits! I think Volchenkov has thrown more in the playoffs than any Leaf player from the entire regular season. Hope your boys are enjoying the golf season.

Don't call the Leafs "my boys". I can't stand them.
however, my boys are on the golf course - New York Islanders.

waterloowarrior

May 16, 2007, 11:08 PM

Ottawa fan pushes 'Sens Mile' street party

Last Updated: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 | 5:25 PM ET

CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/credit.html)

An Ottawa Senators fan wants to make sure others who share his passion know where to celebrate if the team wins a spot in the Stanley Cup final on Wednesday night.

If the Senators sweep their NHL Eastern Conference final series with a win over the Buffalo Sabres in Ottawa, Shane Currey hopes to transform Elgin Street between Gladstone Avenue and Somerset Street into a hockey party street like Calgary's Red Mile.

Currey is counting on Facebook to help him out. He's posted a street party event called "Make Elgin Street the Sens Mile!" on the popular social networking website and more than 1,800 people have been invited.

"We're doing this just because we've noticed there isn't enough fan support in Ottawa," Currey told CBC Wednesday.

He said in Buffalo, there are 7,000 fans outside HSBC Arena every game, but allowed it wasn't as easy to get to Scotiabank Place in Ottawa's west end Kanata area.

"So if we centralize it downtown, then it's much easier."

Currey said a number of bars on Elgin Street are on board, but as of Wednesday afternoon, he didn't quite have the go-ahead from the city for an official event in the street.

"So far we've just gotten a call from the mayor's office telling us that we need permits … so we're trying to do the best we can to get that going," he said.

In the meantime, he said, he's trying to get the word out and build a sense of spirit in the city.

Mayor's spokesman doesn't want to 'jinx things'

Mike Patton, a spokesman for the mayor's office, said city hall is not ready to celebrate yet.

"It's just bad luck to be thinking in advance of any of these sorts of issues," he said. "They're not in the finals, we don't want to jinx things, and we'll wait till any sort of arrangements are necessary."

The City of Ottawa has made some preparations for a possible celebration, announcing Wednesday afternoon that parking along Elgin Street from Laurier Avenue to Catherine Street will be banned until the bars close on Thursday morning.

Police are also planning extra patrols, and barricades have been put up around Parliament Hill on Wellington Street.

Meanwhile, the Red Zone plaza party outside Gate 1 at Scotiabank Place has been cancelled due to poor weather, although the beer tent will remain open.

LOL!

raisethehammer

May 17, 2007, 3:36 PM

can you hear it???
A win Saturday by the Sabes and this will get fun.

10,000 fans in HSBC arena last night.

vid

May 17, 2007, 8:58 PM

phil235

Jun 4, 2007, 2:21 PM

Although the location of Scotiabank Place is undoubtedly terrible, I will say that I have never seen anything like the massive tailgate party outside the arena before game 3 of the Stanley Cup final.

BlackRedGold

Jun 4, 2007, 4:00 PM

Although the location of Scotiabank Place is undoubtedly terrible, I will say that I have never seen anything like the massive tailgate party outside the arena before game 3 of the Stanley Cup final.

The amazing part is that the thousands of people who watched the game outside the arena couldn't park at the building. If the arena was as isolated as people claim, they wouldn't have been there.

upinottawa

Jun 4, 2007, 5:35 PM

Black, where did they park? Is there a rule that you must produce a ticket in order to park during the playoffs (of course there isn't considering Will Call, etc.)? I doubt few people from Orleans drove out to Kanata to tailgate. Also, those people who watched the game from outside the arena did so on a Saturday. Even if the weather was good, the numbers watching outside the arena on a weekday would never come close (to that of a Saturday) as a direct function of the arena's location.

There were approx. 10,000 people on the law at City Hall on Saturday. There were many more in the Market and on Elgin.

YOWflier

Jun 4, 2007, 7:28 PM

He probably meant that the stadium lots were all full. I've never been asked for proof of ticket purchase to park there on a game night.

Biff

Jun 4, 2007, 8:54 PM

I was just looking at Google Earth....can anyone tell me what building is on Carling Ave across from Kempster Ave, a round building with a large parking lot, with a white roof that looks like a "C". i thought that was the Corel Centre. (Didn't it just change names to Scotia Bank Place?) It is just off 417 and Richmond Rd interchange.

Thanks for any help.

Deez

Jun 4, 2007, 9:04 PM

^That's a "Coliseum" movie theater formerly operated by Famous Players, now by Cineplex. It's ugly as sin.

BlackRedGold

Jun 5, 2007, 4:55 AM

Black, where did they park?

No idea. They had employee parking for the rink somewhere around the Home Depot. I'd guess they must have parked at Centrum or the Bell Sensplex (I saw people walking south through the Smart Technologies parking lot).

Is there a rule that you must produce a ticket in order to park during the playoffs (of course there isn't considering Will Call, etc.)?

For the Cup finals every car parking in the arena's lot needed to show a ticket. Even if you had a parking pass you still had to show your ticket.

SSLL

Jun 10, 2007, 4:43 PM

I agree that the arena should have been built closer, but maybe not right downtown.

BlackRedGold

Jun 10, 2007, 6:39 PM

I agree that the arena should have been built closer, but maybe not right downtown.

The Rideau campus of Algonquin would have been a good spot if it was big enough. Right beside the Queensway and the Transitway in the mid point of the city.

SSLL

Jun 13, 2007, 1:38 AM

Or by the Train Yards retail park, where the new Wal*Mart is.

Rathgrith

Oct 29, 2007, 2:04 PM

You know, I think that is the only way we can slove the homelessness problem. Just destroy the places where they congregate. Then they well leave (or die) and everyone will be happy.

That aside maybe the stadium should be where the (old)Lynx stadium is.

waterloowarrior

Apr 27, 2009, 4:33 PM

Why Scotiabank Place is in Kanata
Mon, Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM EST
Bruce Firestone
http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/366863800182473.php
http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/temporaryimages/tm26955.jpg

I can't speak to the issue of what we should do with Lansdowne Park or whether a snow dump in Kanata should be the home to a new Major League Soccer team. But I can answer the question – why is Scotiabank Place (SBP) where it is?

I get asked that a lot. Why isn't SBP at LeBreton Flats, Lansdowne Park, in Orleans somewhere along Highway 174, at South Keys, at Lac-Leamy in Gatineau or right downtown – much like the Bell Centre in Montreal or the Air Canada Centre in Toronto?

All of these locations were ones we looked at from 1987 to 1989, before we decided on the current location for the then-Palladium – in Kanata along Highway 417, with its "own" interchange.

First, here are a few observations primarily from Gino Rossetti, the Detroit-based architect who was the architect-of-record for the Palladium and who pioneered the concept of consecutive rings of suites with his successful first effort at stadium and arena design, the Palace of Auburn Hills where the Detroit Pistons play. A city needs an arena site that has:

A large horizontal surface for parking;
A site that is not less than 85 acres and preferably 100;
Access to a major transportation corridor;
Access to public transit;
A site that would allow the structure to be half in the ground and half above the surface to distribute guests more efficiently and to make the building more human-scale.

Other things on our collective wish list included:

Access at grade;
Double-loaded storefronts at grade so that on days when the arena was dark, there would still be life in and around the facility;
Opportunity for architectural signage to maximize that revenue stream;
A curtain-wall entrance that left no doubt as to how to access the arena.

Let's first look at some of the alternative sites. LeBreton Flats is owned by the National Capital Commission (NCC), which informed us that it had a (very) long-term plan for the site that did not include an arena – it was just a rink to them. The NCC felt that national priorities such as a new museum (which turned out to be the War Museum) or a new Supreme Court of Canada building would take precedence.

We also looked at the Lac-Leamy site where the Casino du Lac-Leamy is now. It's a beautiful site, next to water, close to a major highway and just five minutes from the Parliamentary precinct. Better yet, it was for sale at the time.

But there were already two NHL teams in the Province of Quebec (unfortunately, the Nordiques have long since moved from Quebec City to Denver) and the majority of our potential fan base did not want a third team headquartered there while Ontario only had one team.

What about Lansdowne Park? There were two significant issues with that choice. Firstly, there are more lawyers living in the Glebe than practically anywhere else in Ottawa. How would they and the Glebe community react to another two million visitors descending on their neighbourhood? I can tell you from hard experience – not well. The planning for a new arena might have taken years to get approved, if ever.

Secondly, the NCC would never allow OC Transpo to run buses on Queen Elizabeth Drive. Hence, the only way to get people in and out by public transit would be Bank Street. The maximum number of people that OC can run up and down Bank Street would be about 2,500 pph (people per hour). For an arena with a 20,000 capacity, it would take four hours to exit everyone from the building using buses, if you were to rely on public transit for, say, 50 per cent of our attendance.

Now that tells you something about why the ACC and the Bell Centre are downtown arenas. We could have built the Palladium on a downtown site if Ottawa had a big-time people-mover like the Metro in Montreal or the subway in Toronto. Those two systems can move between 20,000 and 30,000 pph.

But I can tell you that if we relied on buses, we would have had one sellout – opening night. After that, there would have been a fan revolt.

In fact, people coming from Orleans by car could have taken more time to get to Lansdowne Park than to get to SBP, considering the traffic issues around the site.

So why not build a big, multi-level parking garage? Well, for the reason discussed above, you can't actually park more than 7,000 vehicles vertically. Since everyone will leave at the same second the team loses in overtime to the Maple Leafs, a multi-level garage will simply not work.

So I knew we needed a site we could own, that would have enough room for 7,000 cars and 500-plus buses on one level. The soil conditions had to be right to bury half the building. There had to be room for a new interchange and there had to be more than one way to get to the site. It couldn't be imposed on existing communities who would react in NIMBY fashion.

(Communities are now being built around SBP by Mattamy, Minto, Richcraft and others, but the key difference here is that people who buy these homes are self-selecting to be near SBP.)

We looked for a long time for an appropriate site and didn't find one – the Central Canada Exhibition Association (CCEA) did that for us.

The association had thought about moving from Lansdowne Park for some time. Its board actually found the site where SBP is now; one day I read in a local newspaper that the CCEA had optioned a site of some 500 to 600 acres at Huntmar and the Queensway. I jumped in my car and drove to the Huntmar overpass, and I stood on the bridge looking east. I could see the homes of Kanata marching like ants over Moodie Hill and I knew that the CCEA had beaten me to a great site.

I silently saluted them and cursed them, too.

I told the guys at Terrace Investments Ltd., the first parent company of the Sens. We were all disappointed.

But only a couple of months later, for reasons known only to the CCEA, its board decided to release its options on these lands. By 10 a.m., Jim Steele (still vice-president of broadcast with the Sens) and I were sitting in one of the local farmer's homes drinking rye and trying to convince the family to sell their lands to us.

Fortunately, many of these fine people did. We ended up with 600 acres.

We told only a few people what we were doing – Des Adam, then mayor of Kanata and Jimmy Durrell, mayor of Ottawa and Andy Haydon, RMOC chair.

We told them and then-premier of Ontario, David Peterson, that they each had a magic wand and we wanted them to use it – private money would buy the team ($50 million) and build the building ($240 million), but we needed three things from the government. One, we needed the 100-acre Palladium site and the remaining lands (500 acres) rezoned for a major community facility and other uses. Two, we needed public monies to fund the $30-million interchange because the day the interchange was completed, it would have to be given to the Ministry of Transportation for Ontario for $2.

Three, we needed their support to sell Ottawa to the NHL.

We asked them to focus their wands on the Palladium lands and, presto, the lands (after due process) would be rezoned. The average price we paid for the lands was $12,000 per acre and we made no secret of the fact that, after rezoning, we hoped the value would increase to $112,000 per acre (lands in the area are now trading for $300,000 to as much as $546,000 per acre).

The $100,000-per-acre increase in value, multiplied by the 500 acres of surplus land we had bought and planned to resell would equal the $50-million purchase price of NHL expansion.

But we told the guys we wouldn't keep that money – we'd take it to the NHL and in return, would get a piece of paper called a NHL franchise under the NHL's "plan of sixth expansion." We would put Ottawa on the map and it wouldn't cost the City of Ottawa a dime.

We won local votes in Kanata and at the RMOC by a margin of 32 to one and obtained the agreement of the Ontario Liberal government to our three requests. Things were looking pretty good in the summer of 1990.

But for some reason, Mr. Peterson decided to call an election two and a half years early and, with a nearly impossible splitting of the vote, Bob Rae and the NDP came to power later that summer.

As a result, after we won a conditional franchise for Ottawa in December 1990, we knew that we faced a brutal Ontario Municipal Board (OMB)hearing to face off with our own provincial government who would a) not support a franchise, b) use all their power to defeat the rezoning and c) not pay for any public infrastructure.

When our lawyer told us we were losing the hearing, I decided to make a public offer – if the OMB approved 100 acres for the Palladium, we would try to keep the other 500 acres in agricultural use for a generation. This would allow the NDP, hockey fans and Ottawa to find a win-win-win solution.

But the offer was rejected by the NDP and the matter was litigated to a conclusion – the board ruled that rezoning for the Palladium could proceed. But it was silent about the fate of the other 500 acres. Plus, we would have to pay for the new interchange. Consequently, we wrote down the value of our land holdings by $50 million and took another equity hit of $30 million (the value of the interchange).

That's why we have NHL hockey in Ottawa, why other people own those lands now and why yours truly is the Entrepreneur-in-Residence at the University of Ottawa's Telfer School of Management and real estate broker and not involved in hockey or land development.

Bruce Firestone is founder of the Ottawa Senators, real estate and mortgage broker, Partners Advantage GMAC Real Estate and entrepreneur-in-residence for the Telfer School of Management.

YOWflier

Apr 27, 2009, 5:03 PM

God I wish everyone could read this.

lrt's friend

Apr 27, 2009, 6:00 PM

This just repeats the notion that the location of a major sports facility cannot be determined by a superficial examination of best locations. It is much more complicated than that. This is why we have no real proposal for Bayview/Lebreton. It only appears to be the best location but there are other factors suggesting otherwise. The article mentions some of them.

waterloowarrior

Apr 27, 2009, 6:14 PM

this is what the Palace of Auburn Hills area looks like (mentioned in the article as the first project by the architect of SBP)

http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/palaceauburnhills.jpg

AuxTown

Apr 28, 2009, 2:08 AM

What a great article! Growing up in Kanata, I sometimes find myself having to defend this exact question (as if I chose to put it there :shrug:). I often reply with many of these same points, but I never knew the details. I like Kanata, enjoyed growing up there, but don't plan on moving back any time in the near future. Luckily, we have the option to put a stadium in the centre of the city this time and all signs point to us going ahead with it at this point.

phil235

Apr 28, 2009, 3:00 AM

lrt's friend

Apr 28, 2009, 3:15 AM

Does anyone know if Bruce Firestone's point about OC Transpo only being able to move 2500 people per hour on Bank St. is accurate? (Recognizing that he is assuming a 50% transit share, which compares to 6-7% at Scotiabank Place.)

Also, what about buses on Queen Elizabeth Driveway or Colonel By? Is that really a non-starter? It would significantly increase transit access for special events at Lansdowne.

Queen Elizabeth Driveway is routinely used for buses during Winterlude and the Tulip Festival, so why not other events.

I just reflect back to the last Grey Cup and how efficient transit was that time despite 50,000+ fans. People were urged to use transit and I believe that transit useage was very high. For me, it worked much better than anytime I have used transit to get to SBP.

In other words, the comments about transit to Lansdowne are bunk.

ikerrin

Apr 28, 2009, 3:29 AM

Now, if only we can bring an NHL team to Ottawa!

eemy

Apr 28, 2009, 12:13 PM

Queen Elizabeth Driveway is routinely used for buses during Winterlude and the Tulip Festival, so why not other events.

I just reflect back to the last Grey Cup and how efficient transit was that time despite 50,000+ fans. People were urged to use transit and I believe that transit useage was very high. For me, it worked much better than anytime I have used transit to get to SBP.

In other words, the comments about transit to Lansdowne are bunk.

The Tulip Festival and Winterlude are both run by the NCC, which would also control access to Queen Elizabeth Driveway. Do you really think the NCC would let it be used by transit for a lowly football game?

m0nkyman

Apr 28, 2009, 4:29 PM

We asked them to focus their wands on the Palladium lands and, presto, the lands (after due process) would be rezoned. The average price we paid for the lands was $12,000 per acre and we made no secret of the fact that, after rezoning, we hoped the value would increase to $112,000 per acre (lands in the area are now trading for $300,000 to as much as $546,000 per acre).
Here's the meat of the article. The rest is fluff.

Kitchissippi

Apr 28, 2009, 4:36 PM

Ryersonian

Apr 28, 2009, 4:53 PM

:previous: Exactly. If anything, the lesson of the story is that pro sports and real estate development deals shouldn't mix.

Of course Bruce Firestone is going to defend the reasons behind the Kanata location. In reality, it has cost the taxpayers untold millions in extra costs and has had a huge environmental impact.

BUT...and I stress this because like most of you; 1. I am a hockey fan and 2. I'm a Sens fan...We DO have a hockey team...There was no other option and if it didn't happen this way we may STILL not have a team.

The lesson on going through this whole thing is that the culture of the NCC must change...I know we are the Capital and I am very proud Canadian, but I am an Urbanist and above all else a resident of the City of Ottawa. I understand the NCC's mandate, but it confuses me aren't those who work for the NCC residents of this same place and don't we not deserve a functionaing Capital City.

Mille Sabords

Apr 28, 2009, 5:00 PM

Here's the meat of the article. The rest is fluff.

You got it m0nkyman. That's the long and short of it, no question. The rest is, indeed, fluff. My own recollection of those days, and I voraciously read (and clipped) every article about this topic back then, is that it HAD to be the Kanata site because they already owned it.

And much like Ryersonian said, in this exceptional instance, I agree that it was preferable to hold our collective noses and get an NHL team.

But I wouldn't call an MLS team and stadium an "exceptional circumstance" of the same status as the NHL, I'm sorry (and I'm a huge soccer fan), especially not when the city has a perfectly good stadium site and a repairable stadium at Lansdowne. At some point, the argument of "we own the land" loses its validity if it compounds something that's already bad and which we agreed to exceptionally because of what it was.

highdensitysprawl

Apr 29, 2009, 11:35 AM

By 10 a.m., Jim Steele (still vice-president of broadcast with the Sens) and I were sitting in one of the local farmer's homes drinking rye and trying to convince the family to sell their lands to us.

We told them and then-premier of Ontario, David Peterson, that they each had a magic wand and we wanted them to use it – private money would buy the team ($50 million) and build the building ($240 million), but we needed three things from the government. One, we needed the 100-acre Palladium site and the remaining lands (500 acres) rezoned for a major community facility and other uses.

We asked them to focus their wands on the Palladium lands and, presto, the lands (after due process) would be rezoned.

We won local votes in Kanata and at the RMOC by a margin of 32 to one and obtained the agreement of the Ontario Liberal government to our three requests.

That's why we have NHL hockey in Ottawa, why other people own those lands now and why yours truly is the Entrepreneur-in-Residence at the University of Ottawa's Telfer School of Management and real estate broker and not involved in hockey or land development.

I don't know or haven't met Firestone but do they have to build special doorways for him to go through.

Love the imagery of him and his gang sitting in a farmers kitchen at 10 am drinking rye.

Can I get one of those magical zoning wands to wave around and save time on silly process and consultations:banana:

Who was the lone dissenting voice on Kanata or RMOC council.

Entrepreneur in Residence at U of Ottawa...he must be the anti-Barry Waller.

Ryersonian

Apr 29, 2009, 1:52 PM

I don't know or haven't met Firestone but do they have to build special doorways for him to go through.

Love the imagery of him and his gang sitting in a farmers kitchen at 10 am drinking rye.

Can I get one of those magical zoning wands to wave around and save time on silly process and consultations:banana:

Who was the lone dissenting voice on Kanata or RMOC council.

Entrepreneur in Residence at U of Ottawa...he must be the anti-Barry Waller.

I know eh!? I want one of those wands too! I checked e-bay nothing on there though.

waterloowarrior

Apr 30, 2009, 6:21 PM

Want to change the city? Try to avoid council
By Jim Donnelly, Ottawa Business Journal Staff
Wed, Apr 29, 2009 3:00 PM EST
http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/294364864324113.php

Bruce Firestone's OBJ column about why Scotiabank Place is in Kanata answers a lot of niggling questions, and hopefully relieves the frustration of people sick of festering in west-end Queensway traffic on game nights – but likely not.

However, perhaps the most telling attribute about Mr. Firestone's account of those years isn't the fact that, by all intents and purposes, bringing the Sens to Ottawa was a pure real estate play – though don't get me wrong, that's pretty darn interesting.

Rather, it's that bringing the Senators to town and building an NHL-calibre arena in the National Capital Region did not have to rely for even one millisecond on the will of Ottawa's amalgamated city council (amalgamation was not achieved until 2001, so Mr. Firestone dealt with the City of Kanata and Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton once it came to a vote. It's true, some current members of Ottawa's council sat on the RMOC council in the late 1990s. But most did not.

Yes, Ottawa's city council had zero say in the Senators deal. And thank goodness for that.

Otherwise, it's a good bet they'd never have come. The team would likely now be located somewhere south of here, probably in the U.S. It's also likely council would still be arguing.

Because as we've all learned by now, our council is broken. Too many representatives have sat for too long in the same wards, dealing with the same issues and fighting the same fights with much-hated rivals year after excruciating year. The vitriol between rival councillors is known and well-documented, and a childish settling of old scores does not serve anyone's needs – save perhaps their own egos.

This should not come as a revelation to anyone, especially those who followed the light-rail fiasco of 2006-07 (and subsequent lawsuit by Siemens), the Bell-Cisco versus Mitel dust-up of the past couple of weeks (admittedly more of a city staff issue), or even the great Lansdowne debate.

The city's reputation as a good-faith partner in its business dealings has taken a serious hit over the past few years, and much of that is directly attributable to decisions – or non-decisions, as it were – made by our governing 23. That's not good for anyone.

Indeed, if I were part of the Lansdowne Live crew entering negotiations with the city I wouldn't put much stock in any "decision" made by council last week.

As Rideau-Vanier Coun. Georges Bedard suggested on decision day: "It really doesn't make any difference what we decide today."

This isn't meant to slag anyone in particular on city council. As individuals, most are outstanding but as a group, they're a dysfunctional family that make the Mansons look rational.

But the story of Scotiabank Place should at least come as an inspiration to those who, like Mr. Firestone and his associates, wanted to get something done.

Perhaps some credit should be given to the de-amalgamationists among us, who made news earlier this year after Clive Doucet called a meeting to say we're in "a democracy that's not working for the city."

Even moreso, maybe more kudos should be given to entrepreneurs such as the Greenberg-Hunt-Shenkman group, who really do seem sincere in wanting to make this city a better place (while making a little money at the same time) – or, at the very least, sincere about doing something.

Because as we've seen, our current city council seems unable to do just that.

Kitchissippi

Apr 30, 2009, 8:16 PM

I know eh!? I want one of those wands too! I checked e-bay nothing on there though.

Too many people in City Hall playing with their wands. That's why nothing gets done around here :haha:

m0nkyman

May 1, 2009, 6:23 AM

Too many people in City Hall playing with their wands. That's why nothing gets done around here :haha:

Please find enclosed an invoice for one (1) keyboard.

Richard Eade

May 3, 2009, 3:02 PM

I still like the idea of a sports complex at Bayview. The City owns a lot of land there (shaded green).

http://REade.fileave.com/Bayview/Land-Options.jpg

If the NCC would give up its land for the cause (the yellow shaded areas) then there would only be Merkley Supply to worry about (red area). Do you think that Merkley would swap its current land for the land under the Tom Brown arena (with a new direct entrance off Scott, of course)? That way the sports complex could have a shiny new multiple ice sheet arena north of Scott along with outdoor fields (perhaps partly over sunken arenas giving kind of a 'green roof' to them), and a spiffy new multi-use stadium (with a removable cover, of course). Oh, and don't forget the swimming pool and diving pool. The boat races could be held on the river (and in the bar), with the kayaks a little further east on the tail-race of the Fleet Canal.

Do you think the upper levels of government would help if it was for a Commonwealth Games or Olympic bid?

The biggest draw-back I see is the lack of big roads into the complex - people rarely bring all their sports gear on a bus/train.

I like the Hurdman idea as well, but it would all be on NCC property so it might not be as possible as Bayview.

jitterbug

May 5, 2009, 3:13 PM

Firestone is, apparently, still bitter after all these years. He had had visions of retiring early as a multimillionaire, what with the windfall profits he would have made from the Palladium land speculation that went sour. :koko:

His figures for moving people out of Lansdowne are simply not believable. It wasn't that long ago that we routinely had 20,000 to 25,000 people exiting after football, and we still have 9,000+ fans leaving 67s games, all with relative ease compared to the chaos before and after Senators games in Kanata.

Firestone must be the only person around who looks to Detroit as a model for urban development (where the suburban Palace of Auburn Hills is located).

BlackRedGold

May 7, 2009, 1:27 AM

Firestone is, apparently, still bitter after all these years. He had had visions of retiring early as a multimillionaire, what with the windfall profits he would have made from the Palladium land speculation that went sour. :koko:

He's bitter because he lost control of his dream because of the NDP government.

His figures for moving people out of Lansdowne are simply not believable. It wasn't that long ago that we routinely had 20,000 to 25,000 people exiting after football, and we still have 9,000+ fans leaving 67s games, all with relative ease compared to the chaos before and after Senators games in Kanata.

It's been a long time since Landsdowne saw routine crowds over 20,000. And football is a lot different then hockey considering it has 8 home games a year and they're mostly during summer weekends.

Getting in and out of the Civic Centre when the Senators played there. Bank Street slowed to a crawl. Double capacity and it would be a nightmare. Winter weeknight games would be brutal to get to.

Firestone must be the only person around who looks to Detroit as a model for urban development (where the suburban Palace of Auburn Hills is located).

You've obviously never read anything that Firestone has written on his website. He's a big fan of high density, mixed use development and has criticized all the stupid regulations that the city imposes upon development that curtail smart growth.