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Rusty Gull
Apr 9, 2007, 5:49 PM
Does anybody know what's happening with Vancouver's long-proposed streetcar system? It seems like there was quite a bit of progress on this front during Larry Campbell's mayorship, but I haven't heard a thing for at least a year now (perhaps longer).

I can only presume that it doesn't have the support of either Sam Sullivan, or Translink.

Regardless, it should be built. A downtown trolley line represents the most cost-effective way to move people between neighbourhoods such as Granville Island, Olympic Village/Cambie, Gastown, Chinatown and Coal Harbour.

As an aside, it would be great to see a streetcar across Burrard Inlet in North Vancouver, pushing up Lonsdale from the Quay to the Upper Lonsdale corridor. (Lonsdale originally was a streetcar line, which is why it's perfectly suited for such an undertaking).

raggedy13
Apr 9, 2007, 6:04 PM
Checkout this link...
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/projectUpdate.htm

They had an update in October 2006 and it looks like things are still moving along. They might even have the first phase - "Phase 0" - in before the Olympics.

crazyjoeda
Apr 9, 2007, 6:08 PM
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/images/Phase0.gif

Yeah I havent seen this image before. I hope its in before 2010.

SLC
Apr 9, 2007, 6:56 PM
side note from Council's October 2006 direction:

C. THAT Vancouver City Council request that TransLink begin planning the western extension of the Millenium Line along the Broadway Corridor in 2007 as this remains the City of Vancouver's highest transit priority.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/nextSteps.htm

twoNeurons
Apr 9, 2007, 7:35 PM
It shouldn't be that difficult to implement phase 0. It already runs in the summer. If they wanted to, they could have phase 1 implemented before the Olympics.

agrant
Apr 9, 2007, 9:31 PM
Remember, the rail that's already in place along Phase 0 is just one - there's got to be two. I'm not even sure if they're going to re-use the existing tracks, but you'd think they would. I know there's a PDF file kicking around somewhere on my computer, which shows the proposed routes. Anyway, we better be hearing some new news on this soon or I doubt anything will get completed by 2010.

WRT the request to Translink about the Millenium Line extension... I think that's going to be on hold for awhile. Isn't Translink being decommissioned or overhauled by Mr. Falcon?

SFUVancouver
Apr 9, 2007, 9:41 PM
I talked to a couple of the City's transportation planners at the EcoDensity fair a little while ago and they confirmed that Phase 0 is going ahead. The old tracks that were used to run the restored streetcars on in summer have been ripped up along 1st as part of the Olympic Village construction. When the repave the road and all of that the City is going to put in modern streetcar tracks and overheard wires, etc. that will be capable of running modern streetcars when the time arrives. Once the Olympics are done and the historic streetcars are back in operation, hopefully with a serious ridership boost because of the new neighbourhood, the City will forge ahead with Phase 1, which will run through Gastown and terminate at Waterfront Station. In one fell swoop the City creates a tourists streetcar that connects three of the city's biggest attractions; Granville Island, Chinatown (though I'm not sure why anymore, it is such a dump with the DTES spilling over), and Gastown.

My hunch is that the City will either start buying up working antique streetcars from elsewhere in the world to run on the route if they choose to keep it kitschy and touristy, or, in all likelihood, they will start buying modern low-floor streetcars to meet demand and do an end run around Translink that way. By the time Translink demands it be shut down, because afterall only Translink is allowed to operate transit service (what then exactly are taxis and the False Creek aquabuses?), the service will be too popular. Someone from Translink already sent the City a polite reminder that a streetcar system is not one of Translink's priorities and that Translink is the only body authorized to operate transit.

Regardless of how it is done, I am certain this thing is a go. It will start slow, it is already glacially slow, but I think it will pick up steam once the Olympic Village and the Canada Line are up and running and it fills a gap in transit access to Granville Island.

twoNeurons
Apr 9, 2007, 9:42 PM
true they need two rails... but the ROW is there now.

As for m-line West... I agree that it's probably on hold until the fall at least.

SpongeG
Apr 9, 2007, 10:02 PM
sounds good - the streetcar will provide a good link between main street science world skytrain and the new canada line

people can avoid the mess of changing lines downtown

jlousa
Apr 9, 2007, 10:48 PM
I know when Woodwards was in the design stage, the streetcar network had to be taken into consideration. While Westbank did not have to give up any space due to the planned station being just east of Abbott, they did have to design the pedestrian overpass to the gastown parkade with the street car trolley lines in mind. I think as far as the city is concerned phase 0 and 1 will happen, when is the question.

Rusty Gull
Apr 10, 2007, 3:48 AM
Great information. Thanks everybody... I'm glad to hear the dream is still alive, if barely. I suppose Translink's disapproval of the trolley line is a non-factor now that the authority has been rejigged by Minister Falcon.

mr.x
Apr 10, 2007, 3:55 AM
Great information. Thanks everybody... I'm glad to hear the dream is still alive, if barely. I suppose Translink's disapproval of the trolley line is a non-factor now that the authority has been rejigged by Minister Falcon.

Yea, but then Falcon will tell the City to make the streetcar a P3 project.

SFUVancouver
Apr 10, 2007, 6:37 AM
A project is automatically referred to Partnerships BC when the requested provincial funding component is in excess of $20M.

I don't know how much it would cost to do any one of the phases but I would bet it would cost more than $20M. Then again, if the City was able to operate it and collect fares on what is likely to become a profitable route then I don't see why there would be a need for Provincial funding, the city could just borrow what is needed and pay it back.

cornholio
Apr 10, 2007, 8:57 AM
Im not sure that phase 0 needs to be runing or could be runing during the olympics since there will be a security buffer around the olympic vilage and the street it should run down (1st i think) will likely be closed to traffic which means the street car network would be shut down. In my opinion phase 0 will be completed by 2010 but wont be operational until after the olympics except maybe from olympic station to granville island.

officedweller
Mar 5, 2008, 9:44 PM
Latest City report:

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20080311/documents/tt3.pdf

RECOMMENDATION

A. THAT Council approve the replacement of the single-track infrastructure
between Granville Island and the 2nd Avenue Canada Line Station to allow
continued operation of the Downtown Heritage Railway on the alignment at a
cost of $8.5 million; source of funding to be:
i. $500,000 as a funding contribution from CMHC Granville Island
ii. $4,000,000 from the Southeast False Creek Project
iii. $4,000,000 from existing Engineering Streets 2006-2008 Capital Budget;
AND THAT the funding of $0.8 million to be approved in advance of the 2008
Capital Budget, source of funding to be the 2006-2008 plebiscite approved
borrowing authority.

B. THAT Council instruct staff to seek opportunities to develop the Downtown
Streetcar Demonstration Project for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter
Games using modern streetcar equipment and infrastructure.

C. THAT Council approve up to $1.0M to safeguard the streetcar alignment during
the 1st Avenue reconstruction for modern streetcar operations including cost
sharing with Metro Vancouver for the cost premiums of relocating the regional
forcemain between Columbia Street and Quebec Street; source of funding to
be provided from the existing Engineering Streets 2006-2008 Capital Budget.

SpongeG
Mar 5, 2008, 9:56 PM
interesting

jlousa
Mar 5, 2008, 10:04 PM
Looks good, the rest of the document has some good info in it as well. With so little money needed to get this going I've always been surprised it's taken this long. Hopefully Phase 3 gets the go ahead shortly after the Olympics. The only negative I can see is a possible end to the the aquabuses.

Stingray2004
Mar 5, 2008, 10:23 PM
... using modern streetcar equipment and infrastructure.

Ya know, since the line extends from "historic" Granville Island, to/thru/nearby historic Chinatown and historic Gastown as well as the downtown loop, I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of some historic streetcars as well as modern streetcars.

Modern streetcars are too "cookie cutter" and sterile and besides older/historic streetcars adds some character to the ride both inside and out, which can attract additional tourist ridership through that relatively confined area.

LeftCoaster
Mar 5, 2008, 10:38 PM
Aquabusses will be fine... other than science world they dont really serve the same area as phase 0 of the streetcar will anyway. And once the Pacific Blvd. extension is in place the aquabusses can still get across False Creek faster than it takes to go all the way around it.

The aquabusses will always have a that niche market of tourists too.

204
Mar 5, 2008, 10:42 PM
"for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games"

They'd better hustle in that case. Less than 2 years for all this?

jlousa
Mar 5, 2008, 10:47 PM
The ROW is there and it does not take long to lay down track, should the word go be given the 3Km section (6km double tracked) could be done in a few months. It would probably take longer to receive delivery of streetcars.

zivan56
Mar 5, 2008, 10:55 PM
It doesn't take long to lay down the tracks. Getting ROW and actual streetcars could be a problem for such a short timespan. It would be interesting to see the demo running from Main Street Skytrain to Granville Island using one or two streetcars.

SpongeG
Mar 5, 2008, 11:31 PM
Looks good, the rest of the document has some good info in it as well. With so little money needed to get this going I've always been surprised it's taken this long. Hopefully Phase 3 gets the go ahead shortly after the Olympics. The only negative I can see is a possible end to the the aquabuses.

the aquabuses are a private company aren't they? they could stay

there is a never a problem with too many transit options

jlousa
Mar 6, 2008, 12:24 AM
Yes they are a private company, but a lot of their business is granville island/tourist related, if the pacific blvd extension gets built there will surely be a huge reducation in traffic as tourists would probably take the streetcar (even though the trip would take longer). Hopefully they would survive but I'm not so sure.

LeftCoaster
Mar 6, 2008, 12:32 AM
I think with all the added infrastructure and residents along SE and E false creek they should be able to keep afloat...

HAHA.

WBC
Mar 6, 2008, 12:33 AM
Aside from being a tourist attraction and a new destination for school day-trips that thing is going to be a huge waste of money. Vancouver has been trying to sell this to TransLink for the last 10 years with zero success. And foor a good reason.

LeftCoaster
Mar 6, 2008, 12:46 AM
^??

Explain yourself

WBC
Mar 6, 2008, 1:13 AM
Well I don't want to sound like a member of Bus drivers union but 8.5 million buys you a lot of buses instead of just esentially modernazing the railway bed. Then you have to buy trams, train drivers, build a maintanace depot, build stations and then to make this even remotely sensible you have to extend this line. That is a whole lot of money for what amounts to a tourist line.

I think that several years ago the city of Vancouver has pegged the entire cost to 60-100 million dollars. Obviously Vancouver has no money for this alone. And selling a tourist line to rest of Metro Vancouver is going to be a very tough sell. This line was not mentioned in the provincial 14 billion announcement.

As for its tranportation benefits I think they are microscopic even with the line being fully expanded to reach Stanley Park. If I live in South False Creek and want to go downtown I think I would rather jump on Canada Line and be there in 3 minutes. Stanley Park maybe, but that would be more of a weekend kind of thing.

SpongeG
Mar 6, 2008, 1:29 AM
it would be more than a tourist line

its not part of translink so the region won't get all titty - its a vancouver project

deasine
Mar 6, 2008, 1:54 AM
They have existing tracks there... they just need to double the entire thing: or they can double it in certain areas to save cost.

Now they can either purchase StreetCars or rent them from another country (then add olympic themed/vancouver design wrapping over the streetcar).

Great to see this project is not scrapped =) Thanks for sharing officedweller

mr.x
Mar 6, 2008, 2:17 AM
Great to see progress with this project....hopefully, this is only the beginning of a full-scale downtown streetcar network as the city has proposed.

deasine
Mar 6, 2008, 2:42 AM
global did a report too on this (i shall share the link when it's uploaded). For now, i took a few pics with my phone. Taking videos with my phone is horrible...

http://members.shaw.ca/adrian_leung/SSP/R3/DSC01085.JPG
Tony Parsons

According to Global, there is now a change of plans with the line. Phase 0-A will be from Granville Island to Canada Line Olympic Village Station, then continue to Main Street Science World. After that, they will explore options for expansion, should there be a demand, and extend it to Stanley Park, Yaletown, etc.

http://members.shaw.ca/adrian_leung/SSP/R3/DSC01084.JPG
Phase 0-A Option

http://members.shaw.ca/adrian_leung/SSP/R3/DSC01083.JPG
Picture of the SLUT (:haha:) in Seattle

http://members.shaw.ca/adrian_leung/SSP/R3/DSC01086.JPG
Historic Streetcar still there

They may use the old historic streetcars for special occasions (opening of 2010 ceremonies, during olympics, weekends, etc.).


This work (above) is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Canada License
http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-sa/2.5/ca/80x15.png

mr.x
Mar 6, 2008, 2:46 AM
According to Global, there is now a change of plans with the line. Phase 0-A will be from Granville Island to Canada Line Olympic Village Station, then continue to Main Street Science World. After that, they will explore options for expansion, should there be a demand, and extend it to Stanley Park, Yaletown, etc.

They may use the old historic streetcars for special occasions (opening of 2010 ceremonies, during olympics, weekends, etc.).

Demand? You need more routes and service to attract demand.....not just one tiny route that basically goes nowhere and would only serve tourists. Not to mention that if it does go through DTES and Chinatown in the future, it would serve as a catalyst for bringing back business and activity to those neigbourhoods.....it's sad to see what Chinatown has become these days, my childhood memories of it were a place that was bustling with activity all day and everyday.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/images/Phase0.gif

http://www.myweb.net.au/mottram/trams/cand/candc008a.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Siemens_Combino_PST_RB1.JPG/630px-Siemens_Combino_PST_RB1.JPG

http://hampage.hu/trams/TdT4/img_3697.jpg


Toronto's new Siemens streetcars
http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/monthly_04_2007/post-333-1176254792.jpg



On top of a streetcar fleet that is primarily modern, it would be nice if they could renovate and run a few historic streetcars.

deasine
Mar 6, 2008, 3:16 AM
Haha I agree too, I guess financially, it's not plausible for the city. I'm pretty sure this is only a city project and not related with TransLink or Provincial Government, (of course not Federal either).

The council will vote on this on Tuesday.

More Modern Streetcars
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Tramway_Strasbourg_Broglie.jpg
Strasbourg Tram by Bombardier - Source: Wikipedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Alstom_Citadis-Madrid.JPG/800px-Alstom_Citadis-Madrid.JPG
Alstom Citadis - Source: Wikipedia

http://www.melbourne.org.au/typo3temp/2a76eec333.jpg
Melbourne Trams - Source: Melbourne.org

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/Combino_Amsterdam.jpg
Combino Amsterdam - Source: Wikipedia


Closer to Home
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Streetcar.jpg
Portland MAX, most sucessful LRT/Streetcar in the US - Source: Wikipedia

I'm sure SFUVancouver has a few pictures of the MAX system (you're the one that went to Portland a few months ago if I'm not wrong)

http://www.myzip.net/images/uploads/0000/0903/streetcar.jpg
Seattle SLUT (:haha:) - Source: MyZip


My Personal Favovorites
Siemens LRT/StreetCar/Trams used in Houston and Charlotte. The Avanto series.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e3/MetroRail.jpg
Avanto Siemens Metro Rail in Houston, one of the most new sucessful LRTs in US - Source: Wikipedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bd/LYNX_Car_104_at_TremontStation.jpg
Avanto Siemens LYNX in Charlotte (that swish reminds me of Canada Line Logo/SkyTrain Logo) - Source: Wikipedia

Jacques
Mar 6, 2008, 3:20 AM
After seeing the debacle about the greenbelt of Carrall street going south instead of north as planned, I doubt very much we will ever see the making of this tram line in Gastown let alone Stanley park, a lot of hot air I say.
I wouldn't hold my breath on this one, they will conclude that implementing phase 0 is sufficient to attract tourists as they have been doing for a few years now anyway, so no cuts off my pants.
the city is like a big machine that works to make believe we will do this and we will do that but I need your cash first and you tourist are my sure bets I can fill my pocket.
IMO

Jacques
Mar 6, 2008, 3:26 AM
According to Global, there is now a change of plans with the line. Phase 0-A will be from Granville Island to Canada Line Olympic Village Station, then continue to Main Street Science World. After that, they will explore options for expansion, should there be a demand, and extend it to Stanley Park, Yaletown, etc.

emphasis on the highlighted words tells more of the truth as another gimmick for City hall

deasine
Mar 6, 2008, 4:16 AM
Global TV Report:
http://canwest.a.mms.mavenapps.net/mms/rt/1/site/canwest-globalbc-pub01-live/current/launch.html?maven_playerId=globalbcallvideo&maven_referralPlaylistId=4a2ce1e972c5758825bcdb7a353405a5a11fc2a6&maven_referralObject=98c1fdc0-6999-4397-92ba-a490510d9fc5

Global TV Newscasts>Global BC Newshour Mar 05>17:30 (you have to wait to load and drag the viewer to 17:30, they didn't divide it into a seperate report)

Notice reporter Linda Aylesworth said something wrong when she reports about route mapping

djh
Mar 6, 2008, 4:17 AM
According to Global, there is now a change of plans with the line. Phase 0-A will be from Granville Island to Canada Line Olympic Village Station, then continue to Main Street Science World. After that, they will explore options for expansion, should there be a demand, and extend it to Stanley Park, Yaletown, etc.

emphasis on the highlighted words tells more of the truth as another gimmick for City hall

Yeah, wasn't Phase 0 originally from Granville Island to Science World? Why the scale-back? Is this to "protect" the Olympic Village?
And I'm not even sure that the $8.5 million includes a doubling of the track on the ROW, just a 'modernising' of it. So will we really see any difference to what has been running along those tracks every tourist season for the last number of years?

mr.x
Mar 6, 2008, 4:23 AM
Yeah, wasn't Phase 0 originally from Granville Island to Science World? Why the scale-back? Is this to "protect" the Olympic Village?
And I'm not even sure that the $8.5 million includes a doubling of the track on the ROW, just a 'modernising' of it. So will we really see any difference to what has been running along those tracks every tourist season for the last number of years?

Considering that the proposed 2nd Avenue streetcar would run through the Olympic Village, there's no point in building any further than the Olympic Village Canada Line Station. The Olympic Village will be closed off like a castle/fortress, nevermind having streetcars running through it during the Games.

djh
Mar 6, 2008, 4:28 AM
They could have still built the line and just run the trains to Cambie/2nd during the Olympics.

deasine
Mar 6, 2008, 4:29 AM
They could have still built the line and just run the trains to Cambie/2nd during the Olympics.

They are running it to Cambie St. from Granville Island.

agrant
Mar 6, 2008, 4:30 AM
Seems like a lot of negativity here. I didn't even think it would start till after the games, so this is great. They will need to double track it, otherwise there's no point.

raggedy13
Mar 6, 2008, 5:53 AM
Sounds like great news. I wasn't expecting them to have something in time for the Olympics so I'm glad to hear there will be some action on this soon.

In terms of success and whether this will be worth the cost, I think it'll be hugely popular, and not just with tourists. I don't know where anybody would get the idea that only tourists would want to ride it. I'd ride it at every opportunity. I could've used it last night in fact. People love streetcars. My grandma always said how great the old streetcars were and what a shame it was when they got rid of them.

And assuming that all the anticipated extensions are eventually built, this route will be running through some of the most densely populated areas in the city/metro/province/country/continent. There is no reason these will not attract significant ridership and be well worth the investment in the long term.

djh
Mar 6, 2008, 6:56 AM
They are running it to Cambie St. from Granville Island.

Er, I know.

What I mean was that the Phase 0 plan was to go from Granville Island to Science World. It appears that due to the Olympic Village, Phase 0 has been scaled back, potentially for security reasons around the village during the Olympics. My suggestion was that they could have still continued with the original plan to build Phase 0 all the way to Science World, BUT just over ther Olympic period they could have only run the system from Granville Island to Cambie Street. Hope that's clear now.

deasine
Mar 6, 2008, 7:15 AM
Much clearer. Second Avenue according to previous city documents is designed for streetcar expansion/extension with ample room for them to lay their tracks when they feel there is a need.

AKA-007
Mar 6, 2008, 7:27 AM
My biggest thought it why we haven't built something like this sooner if it is so cheep to impliment by comparison to other forms of rail? :shrug:

SFUVancouver
Mar 6, 2008, 8:59 AM
It is actually 1st avenue that the streetcar will run on through the Olympic Village and larger Southeast False Creek precinct.

I'm thrilled this will be off the ground in 2 years.

Granville Island is a huge destination and it is woefully undeserved by transit. I think people will be shocked how busy this line is once it opens.

CMHC is also behind the line. Their recent Island Insights planning exercise found that the vast majority of respondents wanted the streetcar to be a top transportation priority. I'll see if I can dig up the report.

deasine
Mar 6, 2008, 5:09 PM
I stand to be corrected sorry.

It's nice to see that the city has carried out their promises. Remember last year I think during November there was a topic about improving Granville Island? This is the first step to it =D

cornholio
Mar 6, 2008, 5:43 PM
The stretch from Main st to Granville Island will actually get alot of use. It will become by far the fastest and most comfortable route to connect the Expo line and the Canada line. It will aslo be the best connection from the Expo line to Granville island and anything along the waterfront and 2nd avenue, on top of this the area is exploding in growth right now. Once the Millenium line extension is built the street car line will loose some ridership but all in all I think it will be a success. However the planned extensions I think will be less successful. What I would like to see personally would be a Davie, Dennman, Robson, Beati(sp?) circle route. I would make all those streets only one way traffic for cars and have a dedicated street car route through them to properly connect the west end and Yaletown etc. to the rest of the city and the skytrain network. If this were done then te car would no longer be the fastest and easiest mode of transit on the downtown peninsula and the West end would be much better connected to the skytrain network and the rest of the city.

clooless
Mar 6, 2008, 5:52 PM
Wow, this is great news. A streetcar from Science World, or really a line that rings False Creek proper, to Granville Island and perhaps west would be fantastic. I know a lot of people get lost trying to find the place, even with good directions.

Isn't it incredible that we are rebuilding a system that we destroyed in 1955?

officedweller
Mar 6, 2008, 8:39 PM
It's good that they are focussing on Granville Island as a key destination - they need to focus it on destinations not already served by the Expo Line and Canada Line (i.e. Granville Island, east Gastown, Chinatown, Stanley Park, Vanier Park). The circuitious route will see a lot of people prefer the Expo Line and Canada Line, esp. since Main Street Station and Olympic Village Station are easily within / overlap with the walking catchment area of the streetcar.

agrant
Mar 7, 2008, 2:36 AM
My biggest thought it why we haven't built something like this sooner if it is so cheep to impliment by comparison to other forms of rail? :shrug:I think it's a long story. We had a streetcar system, but then decided to go with the trolley bus...

deasine
Mar 7, 2008, 3:21 AM
One more picture of another personal favourite (can't believe I forgot about this one)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/122/306581934_7d35fc1b8b_b.jpg
Porto Metro by Bombardier - Source: Paulo2004 on SCC/Flickr

mattropolis
Mar 7, 2008, 8:12 AM
This is great news!
Maybe this should be called Phase -1 though. They keep cutting it back! ;)

deasine
Mar 8, 2008, 8:33 AM
I was bored so I decided to answer the question of whether it's really necessary for double tracking. I came up with two conclusions.

Should frequency of the Streetcar between Granville Island to Olympic Village Station is 6 minutes or less, two streetcars would be required with the need of double tracking or a station at Lameys Mill Road & Charleston that has two platforms.

Should the Streetcar have a frequency of 6-10 minutes between Granville Island to Olympic Village, we would only require 1 streetcar.

SFUVancouver
Mar 10, 2008, 12:39 AM
I'm sure SFUVancouver has a few pictures of the MAX system (you're the one that went to Portland a few months ago if I'm not wrong)



Good memory deasine. I do have a few shots, though the streetcar and aerial tram caught my attention more.

Portland Streetcar
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2620/portlandstreetcarinthepdh3.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 20th, 2007.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3310/portlandstreetcarinthepgc0.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3259/p1000644pe5.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2883/p1000605ia0.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

MAX LRT
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/995/p1000516kp3.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7604/p1000715ss0.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9348/p1000830tj8.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5239/p1000771ym6.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1337/p1000408es3.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7227/p1000785mx8.jpg
http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/ca/) My photo, taken June 19th, 2007.

In case you cannot read the headline, it says "Bill protecting cyclists passes". That's a nice way to end.

agrant
Mar 10, 2008, 1:31 AM
I was bored so I decided to answer the question of whether it's really necessary for double tracking. I came up with two conclusions.

Should frequency of the Streetcar between Granville Island to Olympic Village Station is 6 minutes or less, two streetcars would be required with the need of double tracking or a station at Lameys Mill Road & Charleston that has two platforms.

Should the Streetcar have a frequency of 6-10 minutes between Granville Island to Olympic Village, we would only require 1 streetcar.Should they decide to go with a single track, I think they should at least allow for space to install a second track in the future.

Stingray2004
Mar 10, 2008, 4:07 AM
I think it's a long story. We had a streetcar system, but then decided to go with the trolley bus...

Speaking of which, I was always fascinated about the streetcar tracks that remained on Quebec Street (one block west of Main St.) just south of 12th Avenue.

I believe that little bit of history was finally removed about a decade ago and I've never seen such streetcar tracks embedded in the road anywhere else in Vancouver. It was kinda cool.

deasine
Mar 10, 2008, 4:17 AM
Should they decide to go with a single track, I think they should at least allow for space to install a second track in the future.

Actually, they will! In the last City of Vancouver report on the streetcars, they even allowed a storage third track.

http://members.shaw.ca/adrian_leung/Streetcar/001.PNG
Appendix B Downtown Streetcar Alignment ~ Source: City of Vancouver

http://members.shaw.ca/adrian_leung/Streetcar/002.PNG
Appendix B Downtown Streetcar Alignment ~ Source: City of Vancouver

http://members.shaw.ca/adrian_leung/Streetcar/003.PNG
Appendix B Downtown Streetcar Alignment ~ Source: City of Vancouver

SFUVancouver: great shots! (correction: deasine not mr.x2 :P). I'm going down to Portland this spring break and hopefully, I will get a chance to experience it's MAX Light rail and streetcar system.

SpongeG
Mar 10, 2008, 5:26 AM
the streetcar hasd been running to granville island for a few years now in the summer - been stuck a few tinmes waiting for it to chug across the intersection

always seemed to have good ridership

SFUVancouver
Mar 10, 2008, 8:07 PM
SFUVancouver: great shots! (correction: deasine not mr.x2 :P). I'm going down to Portland this spring break and hopefully, I will get a chance to experience it's MAX Light rail and streetcar system.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

I just noticed that, sorry. Have a great time in Portland! If you haven't made hotel arrangements yet consider the Ace Hotel. It is an old hotel that was taken over by a group of artschool capitalists, as I call them, and they reno'd it into a very funky hotel. It feels more like an old office building than a hotel and all of the rooms have custom murals done by local artists. The cheapest room is about $90 a night and I stayed for about $120/night. It is very centrally located at 10th and Burnside, right on the border of downtown and the Pearl District, and about a block south of Powell's Books. I loved it and it thoroughly added to my trip.

If you are going to explore the MAX system I would suggest you try out all the lines. I took the Blue Line out to Orenco Station, which is the best New Urbanist development on the west coast. I took the Yellow Expo line out to edge of the city at the urban growth boundary. It is kind of surreal to be in a city one moment and then in wetlands and park once you have crossed a street. For the sake of it I also took the Airport MAX to PDX to check that out. What I didn't do was take the Blue line to the east side of the city, which is apparently kind of like their version of Main street/Commercial drive.

There are lots of good brewpubs down there since it is the self-declared home of microbreweries in the US.

Have a great time.

djh
Mar 11, 2008, 6:11 PM
from cknw.com
--------------
Streetcars coming back?
Mar, 11 2008 - 8:40 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Vancouver city councillors will be asked today to consider a p-3 to bring streetcars back to the city.

Councillor Suzanne Anton thinks a public-private partnership could work in having a streetcar run from Granville Island to Stanley Park.

She'll put forward a motion today asking that council direct city staff to investigate the idea.

Anton thinks the system would begin to pay for itself right from the start.

------------
Geez, does every council do this same process again and again? This has already been done a couple of years back. The only thing I see happening each time is that expensive consultants get hired to conduct studies to prove what we all already know: WE NEED A STREETCAR!!!

Get it built already!

deasine
Mar 12, 2008, 1:10 AM
Hmmm public-private parternship... wasn't expecting that since it wouldn't seem to be a huge revenue generating source. I guess you never know...

yes... get it built!

SFUVancouver
Mar 12, 2008, 2:04 AM
Council approved the Granville Island - Cambie/Olympic Village Station phase of the streetcar. I don't know whether it will be a P3, only that that phase will be ready for the Olympics.

hollywoodnorth
Mar 12, 2008, 2:17 AM
Hmmm public-private parternship... wasn't expecting that since it wouldn't seem to be a huge revenue generating source. I guess you never know...

yes... get it built!

Advertizing at/on the Stations and on/inside the Train's would bring in good coin.....

deasine
Mar 12, 2008, 2:42 AM
Council approved the Granville Island - Cambie/Olympic Village Station phase of the streetcar. I don't know whether it will be a P3, only that that phase will be ready for the Olympics.

that's great news. At least we've moved somewhere?

oh and thanks for the advice SFUVancouver... although brew pubs don't interest me enough (I'm too young =P).

deasine
Mar 12, 2008, 2:43 AM
Advertizing at/on the Stations and on/inside the Train's would bring in good coin.....

On-board messages like the Canada Line?

"This train ride is brought to you in part by adult diapers" (someone on the forum said this on the Canada Line thread. I cracked up laughing and still remember it)

Rusty Gull
Mar 12, 2008, 2:53 AM
Council approved the Granville Island - Cambie/Olympic Village Station phase of the streetcar. I don't know whether it will be a P3, only that that phase will be ready for the Olympics.

Great news! This is probably one of the most under-rated, under-reported transportation infrastructure projects in the Lower Mainland. And it's way overdue!

Jared
Mar 12, 2008, 3:18 AM
Advertizing at/on the Stations and on/inside the Train's would bring in good coin.....

I'm not sure it would actually make that much, to be honest. I could be wrong, but I remember at one point reading that Translink only makes $11m/year on advertizing, for their entire system. A couple of km of streetcar wouldnt get enough advertizing to pay for itself based on that rate...

I assume they'll work out some 3 way revenue deal between the CoV, Translink (assuming fare integration) and the private company.

alta-bc
Mar 12, 2008, 3:51 AM
Little off topic, but I always thought that it was ironic that Translink put car commercials on the back of buses. But it does makes sense...

clooless
Mar 12, 2008, 7:53 AM
Is it safe to assume that any streetcar system will be integrated into Translink's fare structure? In other words, Translink passes and fares would apply on the streetcar.

LeftCoaster
Mar 12, 2008, 3:17 PM
Yes I think that is safe to assume. It would be very inconvenient if the two systems did not integrate.

I have been noticing more and mroe this subject finally getting some attention in the local media, hopefully this attention will be a further catalyist to snap the city out of its malayse towards this project and get it back on track.

GMasterAres
Mar 12, 2008, 3:41 PM
They said on CKNW yesterday that the plan was for Translink to administer the streetcar system aka yes the standard fair system for bus and skytrain would apply.

deasine
Mar 12, 2008, 3:43 PM
I would prefer the streetcars to be running for free =)

Rusty Gull
Mar 12, 2008, 3:49 PM
They said on CKNW yesterday that the plan was for Translink to administer the streetcar system aka yes the standard fair system for bus and skytrain would apply.

I was under the impression that TransLink didn't support the Streetcar system at this point -- at least the old board didn't. Perhaps the new regime at TransLink will give it a second look? If so, it could be an opportunity for them (the board members) to show they're worth their increased salaries.

GMasterAres
Mar 12, 2008, 4:24 PM
I was under the impression that TransLink didn't support the Streetcar system at this point -- at least the old board didn't. Perhaps the new regime at TransLink will give it a second look? If so, it could be an opportunity for them (the board members) to show they're worth their increased salaries.

I don't think they supported construction of the Streetcar system. They had said yesterday that Translink would have no hand in any of the construction. Remember some of this is still just speculation on the media's part but it was basically:

1) Translink will not kick in any money nor be a part of the construction
2) Translink would be asked to administer the fair system and collection of money

As I see it, I'm sure a fee would be collected by translink for administering the fair system so you have a situation where they can make some extra money without huge capital costs (covered by the P3). I can't see why Translink would say no to that chance.

Who knows though if it turns out to be reality. I do think though that if left to Translink, the line would never be built so you're correct in that assumption.

deasine
Mar 12, 2008, 9:06 PM
I think there is an act that makes other public transportation companies illegal which has to be under TransLink regardless.

officedweller
Mar 12, 2008, 9:54 PM
Translink opposes it because it will duplicate existing or planned services (i.e. the City of Vancouver is already well served and regional funding are being spent in underserved areas)

I could see an integrated fare system.

I think there is legislation barring other private public transit operators (can't reacll off the top of my head) - but the legislation could probably easily (within 6 mos to a year?) be amended to allow a municipality to operate or contract for it.

SFUVancouver
Mar 13, 2008, 12:12 AM
Based on several conversations with Translink planners my understanding of Translink's position is this:

1. They support the Downtown Streetcar it in principle.
2. It is not a priority for Translink at this time.
3. They would support fare integration if the City pursued it independently.
4. They are completely opposed to a private, for-profit company developing and operating the streetcar independently of the City.
5. They think it would duplicate existing service and compete for passengers (which is simultaneously ridiculous and correct).

Bear in mind that none of this constitutes an official Translink position.

Council approved the $8.5 million demonstration phase of the Downtown Streetcar and the details of operation are still to be determined.

agrant
Mar 13, 2008, 1:02 AM
"5. They think it would duplicate existing service and compete for passengers (which is simultaneously ridiculous and correct)."

<<< Then we need to ask the question/s - why a streetcar over a bus route? Would Translink have a problem with a streetcar replacing a bus route if Translink operated the streetcar?

Jared
Mar 13, 2008, 1:46 AM
Translink opposes it because it will duplicate existing or planned services (i.e. the City of Vancouver is already well served and regional funding are being spent in underserved areas)

I could see an integrated fare system.

I think there is legislation barring other private public transit operators (can't reacll off the top of my head) - but the legislation could probably easily (within 6 mos to a year?) be amended to allow a municipality to operate or contract for it.

What about the West Vancouver Blue Buses? Are they "city owned" but operated by translink?

deasine
Mar 13, 2008, 2:12 AM
They could start another level in transit. Currently, Translink's operating companies are BCRTCL (SkyTrain), CMBC (Bus & SeaBus), and WCE. We could have a different operating company that is just for the streetcars, like VSC (Vancouver StreetCar Company).

Rusty Gull
Mar 13, 2008, 5:29 AM
What about the West Vancouver Blue Buses? Are they "city owned" but operated by translink?

This is a good question. I'm unclear on how the Blue Bus system works, but one thing I know is that the bus service afforded to West Vancouverites is second to none, and blows TransLink's service right out of the water.

The contrast is especially stark when comparing West Vancouver (Blue Bus) to neighbouring North Vancouver (TransLink).

As far as the streetcar vs. buses argument goes, the pros in favour of the streetcar are many: modern, environmentally sound, esthetically pleasing, tourist-friendly, would interface better with public spaces like Granville Island and Stanley Park. Better yet, much of the routing is already in place, so this one is a no-brainer!

If anything, I think this service would actually help TransLink in terms of alleviating the inevitable over-crowding on the Canada Line once it catches on with Richmond and South Vancouver commuters.

deasine
Mar 13, 2008, 5:36 AM
This is a good question. I'm unclear on how the Blue Bus system works, but one thing I know is that the bus service afforded to West Vancouverites is second to none, and blows TransLink's service right out of the water.
...

If anything, I think this service would actually help TransLink in terms of alleviating the inevitable over-crowding on the Canada Line once it catches on with Richmond and South Vancouver commuters.

West Vancouver Transit has a contract running as a sort of sub division of Coast Mountain Bus Company.

Or it might feed more people into the Canada Line as more people take streetcar from Granville island into Olympic Village station =)

Hed Kandi
Mar 13, 2008, 7:31 PM
A stretcar named Vancouver
False Creek trial heralds possible streetcar rebirth
Andy Ivens

Province

Wednesday, March, 12, 2008

http://www.lestwarog.com/admin/uploads/article/moreimages/3402.jpg

Vancouver councillors yesterday approved an $8.5-million trial project that could herald the rebirth of a streetcar system in the city.

The demonstration streetcar line could be in place for the 2010 Winter Olympics.

If all goes well, it will run on the old CPR right-of-way between Granville Island and the Canada Line rapid transit station at 2nd Avenue and Cambie, a short hop from the Athletes Village at the southeast corner of False Creek.

The $8.5 million will pay for the replacement of the track to allow the popular Downtown Historic Railway to continue its weekend runs while accommodating the modern demonstration equipment.

Future phases of the the "Downtown Streetcar" project could include a link to Waterfront Station, with spurs to Yaletown from

Science World, and to Stanley Park from Waterfront.

The proposal to have staff explore a private partner to help spread the costs around did not receive unanimous approval.

The five NPA councillors present supported the idea of enlisting a public-private partnership -- P3 -- to bring the scheme to fruition. Coun. Raymond Louie and his two Vision Vancouver cohorts voted against a public-private partnership.

"I think it's premature at this time to have staff undertake an extensive process to explore a P3," Louie said after the vote.

Coun. Suzanne Anton, who voted for the P3 motion, said: "Once the public sees it, there's no going back. I'd like to see it go on the Arbutus Corridor, too."

© The Vancouver Province 2008

Rusty Gull
Mar 13, 2008, 8:43 PM
West Vancouver Transit has a contract running as a sort of sub division of Coast Mountain Bus Company.

Or it might feed more people into the Canada Line as more people take streetcar from Granville island into Olympic Village station =)

Given its success, why haven't more municipalities emulated West Vancouver's Blue Bus model? Is it because they have to play ball as long as they want SkyTrain, Seabus, etc? (in other words, if you want the big ticket items like trains and boats, you're stuck with the shoddy bus service too?)

jlousa
Mar 13, 2008, 9:03 PM
I would've guessed it's because no other city could afford to provide a bluebus service. Heck in West Van if you go on vacation you can call the police dept and they will check up on your house until you return, try that in Vancouver. :D

Glad to see this is going ahead, would love to see Phase 1+2 completed as well.

LeftCoaster
Mar 13, 2008, 9:23 PM
Which one is phase 2, Stanley park extension or pacific Blvd extension?

I personally would love to see a loop around downtown, following the stanley park extension, cutting south along denman and then cuttingeast down beach/pacific.

A line bisecting downtown running down either burrard or granville would be great too.

Rusty Gull
Mar 13, 2008, 10:43 PM
Which one is phase 2, Stanley park extension or pacific Blvd extension?

I personally would love to see a loop around downtown, following the stanley park extension, cutting south along denman and then cuttingeast down beach/pacific.

A line bisecting downtown running down either burrard or granville would be great too.

As for the Stanley Park/Coal Harbour extension, there is -- believe it or not -- already opposition gunning against it, including Art Phillips! :eek:

The Nimbies in this town never cease to amaze me: they organize against projects that haven't even been thought of yet!

Rusty Gull
Mar 13, 2008, 10:45 PM
I would've guessed it's because no other city could afford to provide a bluebus service. Heck in West Van if you go on vacation you can call the police dept and they will check up on your house until you return, try that in Vancouver. :D


Good points. Someone has to pay the bill for these kind of services.

officedweller
Mar 13, 2008, 11:00 PM
As for the Stanley Park/Coal Harbour extension, there is -- believe it or not -- already opposition gunning against it, including Art Phillips! :eek:

Don't they live at the Bayshore condos?

SFUVancouver
Mar 13, 2008, 11:32 PM
Well tough for them. The street layout of Coal Harbour was designed with a streetcar in mind so the plan, in some form, was there before the NIMBY residents.

deasine
Mar 13, 2008, 11:43 PM
Wow... people opposing to clean frequent not-an-eyesore rapid transit? -_-" I think the stanley park extension would be great as it makes Coal Harbour more "live" than it is... Coal Harbour right now is pretty quiet compared to the rest of Downtown.

vanlaw
Mar 13, 2008, 11:46 PM
We need a lobby group in Vancouver to Nimby the Nimby's. Show up at every council meeting where Nimby's may be to heckle them.

clooless
Mar 13, 2008, 11:48 PM
As for the Stanley Park/Coal Harbour extension, there is -- believe it or not -- already opposition gunning against it, including Art Phillips! :eek:

The Nimbies in this town never cease to amaze me: they organize against projects that haven't even been thought of yet!

What is the substance of the argument of those opposed to the streetcar, if you don't mind?

I don't get it. Streetcars mean better transit, less pollution (relatively speaking), better movement of people and a more livable downtown. I loved using the streetcars when I was in Europe. What the hell kind of city do these naysayers expect, anyway?

The_Henry_Man
Mar 14, 2008, 12:13 AM
A stretcar named Vancouver
False Creek trial heralds possible streetcar rebirth
Andy Ivens

Province

Wednesday, March, 12, 2008

http://www.lestwarog.com/admin/uploads/article/moreimages/3402.jpg

Vancouver councillors yesterday approved an $8.5-million trial project that could herald the rebirth of a streetcar system in the city.

The demonstration streetcar line could be in place for the 2010 Winter Olympics.

If all goes well, it will run on the old CPR right-of-way between Granville Island and the Canada Line rapid transit station at 2nd Avenue and Cambie, a short hop from the Athletes Village at the southeast corner of False Creek.

The $8.5 million will pay for the replacement of the track to allow the popular Downtown Historic Railway to continue its weekend runs while accommodating the modern demonstration equipment.

Future phases of the the "Downtown Streetcar" project could include a link to Waterfront Station, with spurs to Yaletown from

Science World, and to Stanley Park from Waterfront.

The proposal to have staff explore a private partner to help spread the costs around did not receive unanimous approval.

The five NPA councillors present supported the idea of enlisting a public-private partnership -- P3 -- to bring the scheme to fruition. Coun. Raymond Louie and his two Vision Vancouver cohorts voted against a public-private partnership.

"I think it's premature at this time to have staff undertake an extensive process to explore a P3," Louie said after the vote.

Coun. Suzanne Anton, who voted for the P3 motion, said: "Once the public sees it, there's no going back. I'd like to see it go on the Arbutus Corridor, too."

© The Vancouver Province 2008


The NPA should also consider extending the Pacific Blvd extension route all the way to English Bay, the West End and the southern entrance to Stanley Park. The current No.6 bus on Davie takes way too long, and that potential extension can be linked to Yaletown Skytrain station.

LeftCoaster
Mar 14, 2008, 12:14 AM
We need a lobby group in Vancouver to Nimby the Nimby's. Show up at every council meeting where Nimby's may be to heckle them.

The yimbies?

cornholio
Mar 14, 2008, 1:42 AM
They should really have the demonstration phase done up to Main street and ready to be used right after the Olympics. It will get huge ridership and relieve the congestion on the 99 b line and other buses along the Broadway corridor. It would be the best, fastest and most convenient connection between the Skytrain line and the Canada line which will take up and attract allot more commuters coming of the expo and millennium lines. Having said this im willing to bet that if it is a P3 partnership then this is exactly whats going to happen, it really is a no brainer imo. The line could probably get huge amounts of ridership...pretty much anyone off the Expo line and even the Millennium line during non peak hours when its possible to cram comfortably on to the Expo trains at Broadway. Its only a one stop hop to Main st. from Broadway. From Main street on a dedicated right of way the street car could probably get you to the Canada line in 5 or so minuets having only 2 stops along the way. The rest of the route probably will get much less ridership but I think it will still do ok and I dont see why it wouldn't be profitable.
Compare this to using the 99 b line to connect to the Canada line.

deasine
Mar 14, 2008, 6:41 PM
New Uploaded Document of the City Streetcar Project:


Why a Downtown Streetcar?
Vancouver’s Transit Strategy depends upon an expanded network of rail-based services. The future Downtown Streetcar is an important component of this strategy that will extend the regional transit network to connect major destinations in the metropolitan core, including Granville Island, Chinatown, and Gastown.

The Downtown Streetcar, if built, would provide a direct connection to two regional rapid transit lines – the Canada Line and the Expo Line. It could ultimately be expanded to connect with the extension of the Millennium Line and to destinations such as Stanley Park, UBC, and south along the Arbutus Corridor.

The Downtown Streetcar could be an important element of a sustainable transportation system that will support Vancouver’s Olympic Village and the larger Southeast False Creek (SEFC) sustainable neighbourhood. For SEFC, the Downtown Streetcar would reduce transportation-related greenhouse gas emissions and vehicle kilometres driven by 25 to 50 per cent.

Expanded rail infrastructure would also support Vancouver’s growing communities by providing more accessible and green transportation options.

In SEFC, the streetcar will be located in a dedicated green median which will incorporate innovative stormwater features including infiltration galleries.

Recent survey findings from the Mustel Group revealed that over 80 per cent of respondents are in favour of a streetcar service linking Granville Island with Downtown and the Canada Line.

Due to the forecasted high ridership of the Downtown Streetcar, preliminary financial analysis suggests a better than break-even operation scenario – a significant finding for a new transit system. The project will, however, need contributions from many partners to be realized.

The 2010 Demonstration Project – A First Step
Vancouver City Council decided in March 2008 to support a transportation showcase project for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games. By January 2010, a demonstration version of the Downtown Streetcar will run
between Granville Island and the new Canada Line Olympic Village Station (see map) using modern streetcars.

Delivering a streetcar system by 2010 was one of the proposed public transportation projects of the Vancouver 2010 Bid Book. A demonstration Downtown Streetcar for the 2010 Winter Games will ensure reliable, accessible, and sustainable transportation for the athletes, visitors and residents alike. Modern and fully accessible streetcars could operate every six minutes between Granville Island and the future Canada Line Olympic Village station.

The demonstration portion of the future Downtown Streetcar line already has a dedicated rail right-of-way, with 1.8 kilometres of track for a restored heritage streetcar that presently runs on weekends during the tourist season. This track is being replaced and both heritage and modern streetcars will be able to use it.
A demonstration streetcar will extend the regional transit network during the 2010 Winter Games and decrease the number of private vehicles, motor coaches, and transit diesel buses to and from Granville
Island.

Actual ridership and success of the 2010 demonstration streetcar project will help determine the importance and future timing of completing remaining sections of the Downtown Streetcar line. This transportation showcase project will be an important first step in realizing the overall Downtown Streetcar line. It also signals a commitment to return the streetcar to Vancouver.

Steetcar Backgrounder ~ Source: City of Vancouver ~ http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/pdfs/streetcarfactsheet-mar12.pdf (http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/pdfs/streetcarfactsheet-mar12.pdf)

officedweller
Mar 14, 2008, 6:48 PM
Ubc???