Will ever Winnipeg be like this?

[spiritedenergy]

Check it out:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=406390

This leaves in dust Toronto too... I think there is some problem with canadian cities, and this problem is called SPRAWL:yuck:

On the other hand, canadian cities are perfect for all who like quietness and big spaces, and wilderness very close. So i think Canadian municipalities will never ever be close to european cities for urbanism just because they're so less dense; they should try to highlight what they have of unique, see Winnipeg's Fort Whyte and Oak Hammock Marsh and Living Prairie Museum.

p.s.: i know this is a forum about skyscrapers, still...:sly:

[ReginaGuy]

You have to consider that the majority of European cities were built up at a time when cars were non existant and people had to walk everywhere, hence the narrow, confusing roads and the need for density.

European cities have also had thousands of years to evolve and progress, most Canadian cities (especially in the west) didn't even exist 100 years ago.

I mean, some people live longer than 100 years. It would be possible for some people to have seen western Canadian cities develop from a collection of tents to a major city with skyscrapers

[spiritedenergy]

You have to consider that the majority of European cities were built up at a time when cars were non existant and people had to walk everywhere, hence the narrow, confusing roads and the need for density.

European cities have also had thousands of years to evolve and progress, most Canadian cities (especially in the west) didn't even exist 100 years ago.

I mean, some people live longer than 100 years. It would be possible for some people to have seen western Canadian cities develop from a collection of tents to a major city with skyscrapers

you're right, i wasn't trying to diminish american cities, i just wanted to point out that only few can compete with european/asian/african cities for urbanism (i.e. New York), but what they have more is nature... see Fort Whyte in Winnipeg, or Oak Hammock Marsh, that's something that you'll never find in such crowded and urbanized places. So i think Winnipeg should try to attract tourists with big parks, something innovative about nature experiences more then urbanistic stuff. The same for Regina, I would certainly advertise it for the Qu'appelle valley then for city life or whatever.

[Alva360]

Check it out:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=406390

This leaves in dust Toronto too... I think there is some problem with canadian cities, and this problem is called SPRAWL:yuck:

On the other hand, canadian cities are perfect for all who like quietness and big spaces, and wilderness very close. So i think Canadian municipalities will never ever be close to european cities for urbanism just because they're so less dense; they should try to highlight what they have of unique, see Winnipeg's Fort Whyte and Oak Hammock Marsh and Living Prairie Museum.

p.s.: i know this is a forum about skyscrapers, still...:sly:

I've always said we need/should take full advantage of our rivers that flow throw the city. We sorta do but I mean like what you see in England.

:cheers:

[MolsonExport]

Unless the Bosporus somehow is moved to Manitoba, Winnipeg will never be like that.

[Only The Lonely..]

Maybe we'll never be like a European city, but there's certainly no reason why Winnipeg couldn't look more like this..

Portland Oregon
http://www.portlandbridges.com/photoimagefiles/portland-street-scenes-dreb0img09279-s.jpg

[Greco Roman]

Unless the Bosporus somehow is moved to Manitoba, Winnipeg will never be like that.

Yeah, well that also applies to any inland city; not just Winnipeg.

[rgalston]

It's unlikely that Winnipeg will have a medieval pattern of winding, narrow streets (though its hodge-podge grid system will forever be unique to Western Canada), enjoy a climate like Istanbul, or be a thousand years old any time soon. However, some of what was seen in that photo thread was something you don't need to be the ancient capital of the Holy Roman Empire to have: Enjoyable places for the public to sit, walk, skateboard, shop; care for old buildings (not just the biggest landmarks, but the small ordinary ones); proper urban design standards for new buildings; etc.

[someone123]

This leaves in dust Toronto too... I think there is some problem with canadian cities, and this problem is called SPRAWL

Istanbul/Constantinople/Byzantium is one of the most prominent cities in human history. It was already a thousand years old during the fall of the Roman Empire.

Realistically, if you were to find cities comparable to Winnipeg or Regina you'd be looking at small or mid-sized Siberian cities.

[Andy6]

People from Istanbul would likely find Winnipeg fascinating for all the reasons that people on this forum don't like it. They'd be enthralled by Pembina Highway and Linden Woods, and not the slightest bit interested in the Exchange District or our allegedly "old" buildings.

[viperred88]

I've always said we need/should take full advantage of our rivers that flow throw the city. We sorta do but I mean like what you see in England.

:cheers:

Yeah I always wondered why this city doesn't. Maybe if there were more condos by the river that featured boat garages this would indeed increase boat traffic.... Perhaps all the existing condos buildings along our 2 rivers should start thinking of adding those features.

[viperred88]

Maybe we'll never be like a European city, but there's certainly no reason why Winnipeg couldn't look more like this..

Portland Oregon
http://www.portlandbridges.com/photoimagefiles/portland-street-scenes-dreb0img09279-s.jpg

I always wondered why our city don't have new street cars, we do have the cheapest hydro. And I am sure New flyer can make the shell. Put the two together and voila. We got a great affordable transit.

[psych1]

People from Istanbul would likely find Winnipeg fascinating for all the reasons that people on this forum don't like it. They'd be enthralled by Pembina Highway and Linden Woods, and not the slightest bit interested in the Exchange District or our allegedly "old" buildings.

Yes. Many years ago when I lived in downtown Vancouver, my wife's cousin visited from Japan. I thought she would love the urbanism of Downtown Vancouver, but she was not really impressed. When she went to visit my mother-in-law who lives in the burbs of Calgary, she loved it there. I guess because it was so different from Tokyo.:shrug:

[Only The Lonely..]

I always wondered why our city don't have new street cars, we do have the cheapest hydro. And I am sure New flyer can make the shell. Put the two together and voila. We got a great affordable transit.

I have always thought that Portland's flavour of new urbanism could work really well here, and with minimum change on our part required.

I think your right about the streetcars. If any city could pull off a successful street car system it would be us.

Especially because we have so many old street car neighbourhoods like Selkirk Ave, Osborne, Corydon, and Sargent that are already setup for such a system.

We're not talking about anything too exotic here, no 40 story condo towers or fancy subway system, just plain old fashioned 1920's urbanism.

It worked once before in this town, and it was really what Winnipeg did best.

[Only The Lonely..]

People from Istanbul would likely find Winnipeg fascinating for all the reasons that people on this forum don't like it. They'd be enthralled by Pembina Highway and Linden Woods, and not the slightest bit interested in the Exchange District or our allegedly "old" buildings.

I have a friend from New Dehli and he was like "Where's the city?", as we drove down Bishop Grandin. I told him, "this is it"..and he was totally dumbfounded. Especially when I explained to him that even large cities like LA are filled with sprawl and lowrise buildings.

Although interesting enough he said the most beautiful building he had ever seen was the St.Boniface Basilica. He also liked the exchange because it reminded him of all the '1920's Al Capone ' films he'd seen in India.

[drew]

Maybe we'll never be like a European city, but there's certainly no reason why Winnipeg couldn't look more like this..

Portland Oregon
http://www.portlandbridges.com/photoimagefiles/portland-street-scenes-dreb0img09279-s.jpg

This is exactly what we need back in Winnipeg. Let's reclaim those ugly medians with the stunted half-dead trees and put back what was supposed to be there.

[Only The Lonely..]

I'd love to see something like this running between the stately River Elms on Broadway..

It would be right up Winnipeg's ally, and I believe it would be well used.

http://www.savetheelms.mb.ca/Images/AdoptATree/old_broadway.jpg

http://www.downtowntrolley.org/uploads/images/12308_10T_221.jpg

[bc2mb]

portland is one my favourite cities.

compact, walkable, clean and funky... more like vancouver or victoria than seattle

[Lee_Haber8]

I'd love to see something like this running between the stately River Elms on Broadway..

It would be right up Winnipeg's ally, and I believe it would be well used.

http://www.savetheelms.mb.ca/Images/AdoptATree/old_broadway.jpg

http://www.downtowntrolley.org/uploads/images/12308_10T_221.jpg

Winnipeg really does need a streetcar network downtown. How about a starter line from the University of Winnipeg to the Forks via Portage Avenue? It could take up the two median lanes on Portage Avenue which would make the street more pedestrian friendly.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/lee_haber8/downtownstreetcarconcept.gif

[Only The Lonely..]

I'm curious what a street car system such as the one proposed by Lee Haber8 would cost? I imagine it would be comparable in price to the proposed U of M BRT line.

I think the city might get a little more bang for its buck if it invested in a inner city street car system instead.

[trueviking]

winnipeg might never be istanbul, but it wont be houston either...check out this photo from another thread...


http://static.flickr.com/54/119172270_834daaec77.jpg

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/1825/untitled1yk9.jpg

[spiritedenergy]

winnipeg might never be istanbul, but it wont be houston either...check out this photo from another thread...


http://static.flickr.com/54/119172270_834daaec77.jpg

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/1825/untitled1yk9.jpg

oh my gosh i can't believe it... it seems like the moon, it doesn'l look "terrestrial"... and isn't Houston supposed to be booming?:koko:

Winnipeg will never be my Beloved Constantinople, but it can be this:

http://www.mb.ec.gc.ca/nature/whp/prgrass/images/df03d00.31.jpg
http://www.tourismmanitoba.ca/images_tr/image_library/oak_hammock_marsh_lg.jpg
http://www.greenroofs.com/projects/oak_hammock/oak_hammock1.gif
http://www.manitoba-eh.ca/Fort-Whyte-Centre-Lake-W.jpg
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/43e3435fzfeb1cef5/8fe8scd/__sr_/df1fscd.jpg?phA2xFGBDdY5meu2
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/43e3435fzfeb1cef5/4db7scd/__sr_/2288scd.jpg?phA2xFGBXtzWcV2n
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/43e3435fzfeb1cef5/4db7scd/__sr_/24d9scd.jpg?phA2xFGBjDp7ezxK
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/43e3435fzfeb1cef5/4db7scd/__sr_/cde4scd.jpg?phA2xFGBUDLerfQ8

Winnipeg needs to start to advertise what it has of unique and pristine... NATURE
i have a whole ecosystem in my backyard with deers, geese and all sorts of animals, this is definetely what i'll remember of Winnipeg.

[spiritedenergy]

if you want to have an idea of the sprawl going on in american cities, just compare the size of the cities in google map with their population:

Winnipeg is roughly 3 times bigger then Florence, which has a similar population, twice bigger then Rome (5 millions) and the same size of Istanbul (15 millions few years ago, probably more now) and slightly smaller then London.
Downtown Winnipeg is roughly the same size of downtown Florence, and bigger then the whole size of my hometown, Pistoia, 90,000.

[The Jabroni]

Winnipeg really does need a streetcar network downtown. How about a starter line from the University of Winnipeg to the Forks via Portage Avenue? It could take up the two median lanes on Portage Avenue which would make the street more pedestrian friendly.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/lee_haber8/downtownstreetcarconcept.gif

Technically we do have it all planned out. Just replace the Downtown Spirit and place rails into the streets within their existing routes, and voila! Street car network!

But that plan wouldn't hurt either. ;)

[drew]

^ they probably just have to strip off a couple layers of asphalt, and they'd probably find some of the old streetcar tracks in place already...!

[Biff]

^ they probably just have to strip off a couple layers of asphalt, and they'd probably find some of the old streetcar tracks in place already...!

If you look at the intersection of Broadway & Osbourne you can see the tracks poking throught the pavement on the Great-West Life corner.

[bc2mb]

sam K will be out to fix that up right away!

[DizzyEdge]

winnipeg might never be istanbul, but it wont be houston either...check out this photo from another thread...


http://static.flickr.com/54/119172270_834daaec77.jpg

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/1825/untitled1yk9.jpg

Wow, I officially don't think that Calgary is so bad afterall now.

[IntotheWest]

Winnipeg needs to start to advertise what it has of unique and pristine... NATURE
i have a whole ecosystem in my backyard with deers, geese and all sorts of animals, this is definetely what i'll remember of Winnipeg.

You are absolutely right...and Oak Hammock is very cool - a lot of Winnipegers haven't even been.

Before making a trip to the Peg with my wife (her first ever), I tried showing her pics of the lakes - especially Grand Beach...good luck finding good pics of anything MB on the net.

Also - it would be incredibly cool if Wpg could get a street car network up and running again...it would definitely be unique in western Canada.

[Only The Lonely..]

Also - it would be incredibly cool if Wpg could get a street car network up and running again...it would definitely be unique in western Canada.

I agree..

For those who doubt a light rail system would increase ridership consider this:


Minneapolis:
Light rail line exceeds weekday average ridership goal 15 years early

Ridership on Minneapolis's new light rail transit (LRT) system has been soaring. John DeWitt of Twin Cities-based Transit for Livable Communities (TLC, an underwriter of the Light Rail Now Project) relates that total ridership for June hit 699,000 person-trips (of which 75,000 were for Twins games). The ridership breakdown was as follows:

• Average weekday ridership – 25,193 (ranging from 22,700 to 31,700)
• Average Saturday ridership – 22,645 (ranging from 16,700 to 29,800)
• Average Sunday ridership – 13,581 (ranging from 9,100 to 17,200)

John observes that "Since the 2020 forecast for weekday ridership was 24,600, the Hiawatha line has surpassed that forecast by a healthy margin in its 12th month. The line provides in excess of 10% of all Metro Transit trips for 7.84% of the agency's total operating expense."

For July, ridership results are equally impressive. "Although Metro Transit was expecting a slip in ridership for July," reports John, "only the rate of growth slipped as it grew by about 22,500 rides in comparison with 50,000 per month in the preceeding months." He notes further that July ridership came in at 721,700, with weekday ridership averaging 26,500 – compared to a 2020 forecast of 24,600. The Hiawatha LRT service is thus exceeding its forecast 15 years early!

Another Minneapolis transit advocate, Tom Fairbairn, points out that LRT rolling stock is being utilized to capacity; thus, "all available equipment is frequently in use." Tom further reports that

"The system has ordered three additional articulated cars (same design as now used, from Bombardier), which should be here within the next year, I believe. But I suspect more will be needed shortly, and definitely if the University light rail system ever is built between downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul. One of the big draws has been during Metrodome events. The Vikings are looking to build a new stadium up in Blaine, Minnesota (a second-tier suburb north of Minneapolis several miles), which will take them out of the loop at the Dome. However, even if the Twins move to North Minneapolis, they will still be on the light rail and that won't change the loadings, or might increase them. The Vikings really don't contribute that much on an annual basis, anyhow, as the number of NFL games played at the dome is not that high.

[Only The Lonely..]

Looking at the economics of the Portland Street Car network, I have come to believe that a similiar system would be very doable for a city our size.

• Route length: 3.0 miles (March 2005)
• Stations: 44 (March 2005, total, both directions)
• Weekday ridership: 5,600 (2003)
• Vehicles: 7
• Total cost (original, 2001): $54.6 million for 2.4 route-miles – ca. $23 million/route-mile
• Total cost (extension, 2005): $15.8 million for 0.6 route-miles – ca. $26 million/route-mile


The Portland Streetcar in the city of Portland, Oregon, is the first modern streetcar line built in North America in the past fifty years. The 7.7-km (4.8-mi) single track streetcar loop was constructed in a short, 2-year time frame and at a very modest cost. In adhering to the theme of simplicity, the entire project, including five streetcar vehicles manufactured in the Czech Republic, cost approximately $54.6 million, or about $7.1 million per track-kilometer ($11.4 million per track-mile).

The concept of the service is single cars operating in mixed traffic on city streets, with stops every two or three blocks. Service was inaugurated on July 20, 2001. In the 2 years since, Portland Streetcar has enjoyed a steady growth in ridership and popularity.

Overall, the streetcar line has been extremely well-received, and the positive experience of the first 2 years of operation is lending credence to the city's efforts to expand the line to other areas close to downtown Portland. It has also become a model that many other municipalities, large and small, have come to see in order to gauge possible application in their own communities.



Furthermore, ridership has increased by 1000+ riders for each year since 2001.


http://web.pdx.edu/~nac/pdxdirtcheap/images/streetcar.jpghttp://ktransit.com/transit/uspnw/portland/streetcar/Photos/pdx-tramparade-072001-04.jpg

[drew]

Seeing as Winnipeg was built-up around streetcar lines for the first 50 years or so of its being, I think I really makes sense to try and put in place a modern system much like Portland's. It may not be "rapid" transit per se, but you cannot deny the cool factor of the new street cars.

You could also use the streetcars to replace most of the regular bus routes in and around downtown, such that the only additional buses coming in and out of downtown would be the express buses at peak times...

[Only The Lonely..]

Seeing as Winnipeg was built-up around streetcar lines for the first 50 years or so of its being, I think I really makes sense to try and put in place a modern system much like Portland's. It may not be "rapid" transit per se, but you cannot deny the cool factor of the new street cars.

You could also use the streetcars to replace most of the regular bus routes in and around downtown, such that the only additional buses coming in and out of downtown would be the express buses at peak times...

I agree..

The infrastructure is in place, the initiative just needs to be shown.


Ohh, if only we had a mayor or a premier with some vision. Let's dig up Steve Juba tonight, whaddaya say?

[Only The Lonely..]

It may not be "rapid" transit per se, but you cannot deny the cool factor of the new street cars.



If I remember correctly the Portland system has the ability to change lights at intersections where the Tram passes so that its movement can be unimpeded.

The cars themselves also come equipped with bike racks during the summer months.

[The Diva]

With a little make up, and proper clothing, Juba would be welcome....

[drew]

I agree..

The infrastructure is in place, the initiative just needs to be shown.



The more I think of it, the more streetcars seem like the most realistic "rail" solution for Winnipeg. We really don't have the finances or the need to build a true LRT system in this city - but a streetcar system seems like a logical first step towards making transit cool again in the this city.

It's fairly cost-effective, environmentally sound, has a massive visual impact (good politiking), and also satisfies the cool factor that would sway many in this city to get back on to public transit - and maybe even visit downtown more often.

[Only The Lonely..]

The more I think of it, the more streetcars seem like the most realistic "rail" solution for Winnipeg. We really don't have the finances or the need to build a true LRT system in this city - but a streetcar system seems like a logical first step towards making transit cool again in the this city.

It's fairly cost-effective, environmentally sound, has a massive visual impact (good politiking), and also satisfies the cool factor that would sway many in this city to get back on to public transit - and maybe even visit downtown more often.

The most important factor for me is that the street car actually takes you where you want to go.

None of the proposed LRT / BRT lines drop you off anywhere close to where your going.

For instance, take the proposed U of M line. It still drops you off 2 or 3 city blocks away from the campus.

Having walked down Chancellor Drive many times I can attest to the fact that it’s a long walk (approx 10 mins) and that's just to get to the perimeter of the campus never mind class.

The beauty of the street car is that it would drop you off at the front door.

[The Diva]

Concerning Houston, that is not a very flattering shot...I WISH Winnipeg had the streetscapes or skyline of Houston:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/233/450032849_727473f923_b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/224/447899450_2b926bfc46.jpg?v=0
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Picture729.jpg
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9020/hpim1901tj5.jpg

[drew]

^ there's those damn streetcars again...

[IntotheWest]

Looking at the economics of the Portland Street Car network, I have come to believe that a similiar system would be very doable for a city our size.

• Route length: 3.0 miles (March 2005)
• Stations: 44 (March 2005, total, both directions)
• Weekday ridership: 5,600 (2003)
• Vehicles: 7
• Total cost (original, 2001): $54.6 million for 2.4 route-miles – ca. $23 million/route-mile
• Total cost (extension, 2005): $15.8 million for 0.6 route-miles – ca. $26 million/route-mile




Wow! That isn't a bad price! Stop all other construction in Winnipeg, and get this built! 3 miles doesn't sound like a lot, but it would be a good start.

[spiritedenergy]

Since it seems that the city is interested in knowing what people wants about public transit, whay don't we prepare one of those online petitions to be sent to city hall, about implementing a streetcar system? Streetcars are also very good in Toronto, I hardly took the bus there.

[1ajs]

i would sign.

start downtown then work our ways up portage and also main street and then pemida all the way to the floodway gates

anyhow heres some shots from downtown Minneapolis
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/375102026_1fbeef16aa_o.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/375093752_ae24543b6f_o.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/375093751_d2319d3bdd_o.jpg

[Lee_Haber8]

Looking at the economics of the Portland Street Car network, I have come to believe that a similiar system would be very doable for a city our size.

• Route length: 3.0 miles (March 2005)
• Stations: 44 (March 2005, total, both directions)
• Weekday ridership: 5,600 (2003)
• Vehicles: 7
• Total cost (original, 2001): $54.6 million for 2.4 route-miles – ca. $23 million/route-mile
• Total cost (extension, 2005): $15.8 million for 0.6 route-miles – ca. $26 million/route-mile




Furthermore, ridership has increased by 1000+ riders for each year since 2001.


http://web.pdx.edu/~nac/pdxdirtcheap/images/streetcar.jpghttp://ktransit.com/transit/uspnw/portland/streetcar/Photos/pdx-tramparade-072001-04.jpg

Only the Lonely, you forgot to mention that the streetcar generated 2 billion dollars in investment in the surrounding communities.

2 Billion!
Let's do a cost benefit analysis. That would mean for every dollar spent on the streetcar it produced it generated 29 dollars in development! Talk about bang for your buck!

I would say the first street car line should go from the U of W to the forks via Portage Avenue. It would make the area a lot more pleasant and would serve major destinations.

As for light rail not serving any destinations, here's an updated route map I made. One of the big reasons why I looked at BRT initially (and still think it is a good intermediate step) is that it can easily reach the University directly. For light-rail to do the same it would involve making Dafoe Rd. into a transit mall and a short underground section at Bison Drive.
Light Rail Map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&z=11&t=h&om=1&msid=113994050471969444324.00000111c97607de89192&msa=0)

[rgalston]

Street railway would be the only way to go in Winnipeg as far as surface light rail is concerned: take a look at maps from the 2001 census that show existing transit ridership (which incidentally follows the old street car routes--over fifty years later) and population densities. Mass transit must always serve where the people are, and where they are going; not low-density suburbs (predispositioned to automobile use anyway), or imaginary new-urbanist football stadia.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/414866173_04cfe41816.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/414933335_71713f4a72.jpg

[good_dude]

I agree..

For those who doubt a light rail system would increase ridership consider this:

send that to all our city councillors! they need a success story to kick their anti-rapid-transit butts

[Lee_Haber8]

Street railway would be the only way to go in Winnipeg as far as surface light rail is concerned: take a look at maps from the 2001 census that show existing transit ridership (which incidentally follows the old street car routes--over fifty years later) and population densities. Mass transit must always serve where the people are, and where they are going; not low-density suburbs (predispositioned to automobile use anyway), or imaginary new-urbanist football stadia.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/414866173_04cfe41816.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/414933335_71713f4a72.jpg

When it comes to where Rapid should go the first thing you want to do is serve major destinations that generate a lot trips. That would be employment centres, attractions and major shopping centres. When serving people a line should either serve existing development or spur development to be built around it. Suburbs aren't going away, so the only way to make them better is to make them more urban. Rapid transit is what is needed to jumpstart this.

The problem I have with the subway plan is that it doesn't serve several major destinations. I see a dark spot near the university that doesn't have a line coming close to it. An LRT which serves both the inner city and suburbs can serve far flung destinations (like the U of M) and make the suburbs more livable. The city is not a museum, those low-density suburbs don't have to be low-density suburbs in perpetuity.

[drew]

Do streetcars fall under the LRT umbrella?

[Andy6]

Do streetcars fall under the LRT umbrella?

LST maybe.

[1ajs]

LST maybe.

LST ???

[rgalston]

When it comes to where Rapid should go the first thing you want to do is serve major destinations that generate a lot trips. That would be employment centres, attractions and major shopping centres. When serving people a line should either serve existing development or spur development to be built around it. Suburbs aren't going away, so the only way to make them better is to make them more urban. Rapid transit is what is needed to jumpstart this.

The problem I have with the subway plan is that it doesn't serve several major destinations. I see a dark spot near the university that doesn't have a line coming close to it. An LRT which serves both the inner city and suburbs can serve far flung destinations (like the U of M) and make the suburbs more livable. The city is not a museum, those low-density suburbs don't have to be low-density suburbs in perpetuity.

I don't disagree with that, but in Winnipeg's case, what do you think is more important? Giving the troubled downtown and inner city a major tool in becoming attractive to residents, businesses and investors; or making new suburbs incorporate T.O.D. into their design? A quick stroll down Main Street or through Centennial or South Portage--places oozing with unmet potential--the answer is pretty obvious.

[Only The Lonely..]

send that to all our city councillors! they need a success story to kick their anti-rapid-transit butts

This would be an interesting topic for WUI to explore (Street Cars vs BRT cost/benefit analysis).


When school is finished in about a week i'll dedicate some more time into researching this.

[Only The Lonely..]

I don't disagree with that, but in Winnipeg's case, what do you think is more important? Giving the troubled downtown and inner city a major tool in becoming attractive to residents, businesses and investors; or making new suburbs incorporate T.O.D. into their design? A quick stroll down Main Street or through Centennial or South Portage--places oozing with unmet potential--the answer is pretty obvious.

I tend to agree with Mr.Galston's point of view on this..

Given the choice between BRT to major destinations or a street car system it is my belief that the street car would deliver the most bang for our transportation buck.

By building a street car system we address three important issues at once:

(1.) Inner city residents are the biggest users of transit; it would make sense to accommodate them. After all, it is these people who would be most likely to initially use any type of new system.

(2.) The economic opportunities associated with this type of tram system are undeniable. I believe Lee suggested that Portland's system generated $29 in development for every transit dollar spent. The old street car neighbourhoods (St.Boniface, Downtown, North End, Fort Rouge, and West End) could definitely benefit from the added development.

(3.) Furthermore, with a new street car system in place we could free up existing buses and turn them into dedicated express routes between regional commercial centres. I've always thought that turning the 77 Crosstown North into a non-stop express bus between Polo Park, Garden City, and Kildonan Place would do a lot to promote transit ridership in these suburban areas.

[Lee_Haber8]

I don't disagree with that, but in Winnipeg's case, what do you think is more important? Giving the troubled downtown and inner city a major tool in becoming attractive to residents, businesses and investors; or making new suburbs incorporate T.O.D. into their design? A quick stroll down Main Street or through Centennial or South Portage--places oozing with unmet potential--the answer is pretty obvious.

I agree that inner city has the highest priority in being redeveloped. A streetcar system would be greatly stimulate a revival which would make it building a system a top priority. However, we should also note that Portland has a light-rail system that complements its streetcar network and the two would not be as good without the other. There's also the political reality that it may be difficult getting 12 suburban councilors and a suburban mayor to support an urban-only project. Hopefully I'm wrong on this. That said, I think it would make sense if Winnipeg pursued a streetcar and B-Line bus service and then looked to LRT

[Andy6]

I agree that inner city has the highest priority in being redeveloped. A streetcar system would be greatly stimulate a revival which would make it building a system a top priority. However, we should also note that Portland has a light-rail system that complements its streetcar network and the two would not be as good without the other. There's also the political reality that it may be difficult getting 12 suburban councilors and a suburban mayor to support an urban-only project. Hopefully I'm wrong on this. That said, I think it would make sense if Winnipeg pursued a streetcar and B-Line bus service and then looked to LRT

I don't really understand this. A streetcar does absolutely nothing that a bus doesn't do, except that it does it more slowly and more expensively (at least if you're looking at the marginal cost of adding buses to an existing fleet vs. adding a completely new type of equipment to the Transit fleet). No doubt there would be a "shiny newness" factor to streetcars that can't be totally discounted, but beyond image and nostalgia is there anything about them that would change people's existing habits? With one streetcar line, anytime there's any kind of roadwork or obstruction (e.g. from an accident) the whole system has to shut down. I would personally prefer to see the city work on improving the bus system in preference to introducing new stuff.

[Only The Lonely..]

I agree that inner city has the highest priority in being redeveloped. A streetcar system would be greatly stimulate a revival which would make it building a system a top priority. However, we should also note that Portland has a light-rail system that complements its streetcar network and the two would not be as good without the other. There's also the political reality that it may be difficult getting 12 suburban councilors and a suburban mayor to support an urban-only project. Hopefully I'm wrong on this. That said, I think it would make sense if Winnipeg pursued a streetcar and B-Line bus service and then looked to LRT


Yes, this thought has occurred to me also. With a heavy voter base in the suburbs and so many pro sprawl councilors in power it might be difficult to convince council in the merit of such a system.

However, I think this idea would have a couple of pockets of support.

(1.) The businesses that make up Winnipeg's ethnic neighbourhoods would probably be delighted to have such a system in place. In particular, The French Quarter, Little Italy, and the proposed 'Little Portugal' along Sargent Ave. Considerable money is already being spent to spice up St.Boniface so that it can attract more business and shoppers, why not add a street car? A street car network would definitely highlight the uniqueness of these diverse little enclaves.

(2.) Again back to ridership, the majority of transit users already live in these neighbourhoods to start with.

(3.) Lately the NDP has been caught up in an environmental craze to make greater use of wind power. I would think they would be supportive of a transit system that took advantage of our abundant supply of renewable energy. Bonus points for using wind power to power the street car system. :banana:

(4) Furthermore, there’s support amongst the opposition (Hugh McFadyen) for developments such as this.

(5.) I also believe developers and the real estate community at large would be supportive of such an idea. The success of Waterfront drive has demonstrated that there is clearly market demand for chic urban housing. A street car would certainly facilitate this kind of development.

These are just some ideas to throw around..

[Only The Lonely..]

I don't really understand this. A streetcar does absolutely nothing that a bus doesn't do, except that it does it more slowly and more expensively (at least if you're looking at the marginal cost of adding buses to an existing fleet vs. adding a completely new type of equipment to the Transit fleet). No doubt there would be a "shiny newness" factor to streetcars that can't be totally discounted, but beyond image and nostalgia is there anything about them that would change people's existing habits? With one streetcar line, anytime there's any kind of roadwork or obstruction (e.g. from an accident) the whole system has to shut down. I would personally prefer to see the city work on improving the bus system in preference to introducing new stuff.


Again, there's the urban renewal component to the system. Regardless of whether a new street car is actually faster than a bus, buses just don't generate the same amount of development activity that a rail system does.

The $29 of development for ever $1 invested in rail in Portland's case can't be discounted. I just can't see a similiar return on investment if we added more buses to these routes.

The city and province are already spending money on urban renewal, why not consolidate the budgets for BRT and inner city redevelopment and just use the money to build the rail system. Let the private sector take care of the rest.

[Andy6]

Again, there's the urban renewal component to the system. Regardless of whether a new street car is actually faster than a bus, buses just don't generate the same amount of development activity that a rail system does.

The $29 of development for ever $1 invested in rail in Portland's case can't be discounted. I just can't see a similiar return on investment if we added more buses to these routes.

The city and province are already spending money on urban renewal, why not consolidate the budgets for BRT and inner city redevelopment and just use the money to build the rail system. Let the private sector take care of the rest.

Why would streetcars generate any development activity in Winnipeg at all? What would be the process by which that would happen? What's an example of a development that might take place in the presence of a streetcar that would otherwise not occur? It's easy in a growing, upper middle class U.S. city for streetcar lovers to claim that growth that was going to happen anyway (somewhere) was in fact due to the streetcars. I don't see how having a streetcar would produce any growth in the very different situation of a city like Winnipeg.

[Only The Lonely..]

I think we need to put ourselves in the position of an entrepreneur looking to start a small retail shop, or restaurant. All things equal, which street would you rather lease retail space on?

This one:
http://www.movingtoportland.net/images/streetcardowntown.jpg

Or this one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/90/Pat_bus.jpg/250px-Pat_bus.jpg

[Andy6]

In Toronto, there is no one that hates streetcars more than small retailers, because the new lines built down the centres of streets try to speed up service by removing turn lanes and curb cuts, cutting businesses off from many of their potential customers. They also require the removal of on-street parking in many cases because the streetcar chews up two lanes of traffic down the centre of the street. Opposition to the Spadina and St. Clair streetcar lines came overwhelmingly from businesses on the affected streets.

[riyehn]

In Toronto, there is no one that hates streetcars more than small retailers, because the new lines built down the centres of streets try to speed up service by removing turn lanes and curb cuts, cutting businesses off from many of their potential customers. They also require the removal of on-street parking in many cases because the streetcar chews up two lanes of traffic down the centre of the street. Opposition to the Spadina and St. Clair streetcar lines came overwhelmingly from businesses on the affected streets.

Yes, but I doubt a Winnipeg streetcar line would be a quasi-LRT like the Spadina or St. Clair lines. More likely it would be a cheaper (it is Winnipeg, after all) shared-ROW system similar to the Portland or conventional Toronto streetcar systems.

Plus, downtown Winnipeg doesn't yet have the concentration of vibrant commercial strips that Toronto does. As I understand, both St. Clair and Spadina were popular shopping streets (for people from outside the neighbourhood) when the City decided to build the ROW along each street. In Winnipeg, there isn't yet that kind of patronage of downtown business. It's not like anyone could complain that their floods of customers would suddenly dry up. I think businesses in central Winnipeg would recognize and appreciate the improved accessibility a streetcar would bring to their area.

[The Diva]

Winnipeg has those "strips"...but most just aren't developed yet, and others need more development...Sargent, Corydon, Osborne, Academy, Provencher, Portage, Main...