Californian's Views, Opinions and Attitudes on Sacramento

[BrianSac]

Sacramento's Green Canopy, Tahoe Park Neighborhood
pics taken by BrianSac
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1553/12664172vk7.jpg

Leaning Tower of Sacramento
pic taken by BrianSac
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/663/66205677xb7.jpg

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7577/94721462dm4.jpg

I'd like to hear peoples opinions, ideas, views, attitudes, and stereotypes about the Sacramento region. The Sacramento region includes the city of Davis, Amador, Placer, Sutter and El Dorado Counties. If you've never been here, what do you know about us?

Don't hold back, if you want to make fun of the place go for it. If you want to rave about us, rave. If you have absolutely no opinion, say so.

Personally, I've love it and hate it. For me, its a safe, comfortable, affordable sort of place. Uninspired, yet green and clean. Seems like many of the "talented" people leave for "better" environments, whether they are for cultural, geographical, or monetary reasons. Is this still true?

[downtownserg89]

i just LOVE sacramento. it's the next big thing. it's a mixture of LA and San Francisco! it has LA's flatness, and random palm trees, and frisco's "vibe," like 12th & J really reminds me of sf. kind of. but still, like my thing says, sac's hitting puberty! give it a few more years, and it will be the place to be seen. paparrazzi might even become a thing of downtown. it's just hella fun walking down j street! okay, enough ranting. i just had a berry flavored wine cooler, so i'm feeling a little frisky. but yes, sac town! yee! :worship:

[Grimnebulin]

Sacramentans: Is there old money here, i.e. multi-generational big time wealth that is on the level of SF or LA's elite?



I'll touch on one of your questions, the rest could be the basis for a novel... :D

Multi-generational wealth comparable to LA/SF - no. Off the top of my head (and that's not saying very much), the only multi-generational families with money here (the Benvenutis, Panattonis, Domics, Oates', Teicherts, Sacas, the new wave of Greek developers, etc.) have really happened in the last 30-40 years and might have 2 generations at most, and are nowhere near as wealthy as the SF/LA crowd.

[I'm sure I' missing a number of other families as well, but these are the main ones I've always heard about from family and other connections. Me - born and raised in Sacto, family has been here since the early 1910's in the East Sac and Fair Oaks/Watt area, lived in LA and the Bay Area/SF for 14 or so years, back in Sacto now for the last year.]

This is the main reason I feel that the arts here in Sacto are so lacking - there really are no deep pocketed and respected benefactors leading fundraising drives and when there are, the pool of money comparative to LA/SF is really shallow. Look at Eli Broad leading the Disney Center or the Getty's with their museum in SM. I really feel that the lack of multi-generational deep pockets and leadership is a reason that a lot of the arts in Sacto are so weak comparative to LA/SF. Just one of my opinions on Sacto. :speech:

[Brotha_Lynch]

I personally have nothing but love for Sacramento.

The good: One of the most, if not the MOST, diverse city in America, as the 2002 study showed (it was in NY Times). Fair air quality. GREAT place to raise your kids and have a family. People are real and nice. Sacramento is growing fast as hell. People don't give a damn what color, race, or culture you are, everyone seems to get along.

I can't stand when people (mostly LA residents) talk about how there's nothing to do here from the entertainment standpoint. That's straight ignorant, because if you're not a chubby little couch potato who wants food handed to him, you will always find something to do.

Also, it's not a goddamn cow-town, and hasn't been that for a while. I believe Sacramento has one of the lowest cattle counts in all California, if I'm not mistaken. And no, it does NOT smell like cow poop in this city.

Message to the haters: If you don't like it, get your whiney ass out. A city is what you make it.

[Majin]

I don't think this thread is a good idea.

[BrianSac]

I'll touch on one of your questions, the rest could be the basis for a novel... :D

Multi-generational wealth comparable to LA/SF - no. Off the top of my head (and that's not saying very much), the only multi-generational families with money here (the Benvenutis, Panattonis, Domics, Oates', Teicherts, Sacas, the new wave of Greek developers, etc.) have really happened in the last 30-40 years and might have 2 generations at most, and are nowhere near as wealthy as the SF/LA crowd.

[I'm sure I' missing a number of other families as well, but these are the main ones I've always heard about from family and other connections. Me - born and raised in Sacto, family has been here since the early 1910's in the East Sac and Fair Oaks/Watt area, lived in LA and the Bay Area/SF for 14 or so years, back in Sacto now for the last year.]

This is the main reason I feel that the arts here in Sacto are so lacking - there really are no deep pocketed and respected benefactors leading fundraising drives and when there are, the pool of money comparative to LA/SF is really shallow. Look at Eli Broad leading the Disney Center or the Getty's with their museum in SM. I really feel that the lack of multi-generational deep pockets and leadership is a reason that a lot of the arts in Sacto are so weak comparative to LA/SF. Just one of my opinions on Sacto. :speech:

Thanks for sharing, :) . I've never heard of the Panattonis & Domics.

1910's...thats a long time.

My Sacramento roots go back to 1968 when my father moved his family from Monterey (Seaside, CA) to Sacramento so he could buy his first home. Even back then, people from the bay area were moving to Sac because of cheaper home prices. My father was killed in action in Vietnam. He was a highly decorated Green Beret, and thus a street in Sacramento County was named for him. I've lived 2yrs in San Francisco(russian hill) and 4yrs in various parts of west and central Los Angeles. I spent all my summers of my jr. and high school yrs in San Deigos Clairemont District, so I've had my share of California cities.

Well, the Mondavi's (UC Davis Performing Art Center) and Spano's (Mercy Heart Center) families have started a trend in philanthropy, although neither are really from Sacramento.

[BrianSac]

I don't think this thread is a good idea.

You are entitled to your opinion, but obviously several others had some positive things to say. I've already learned a few new things about Sacramento that I didnt know.

[BrianSac]

i just LOVE sacramento. it's the next big thing. it's a mixture of LA and San Francisco! it has LA's flatness, and random palm trees, and frisco's "vibe," like 12th & J really reminds me of sf. kind of. but still, like my thing says, sac's hitting puberty! give it a few more years, and it will be the place to be seen. paparrazzi might even become a thing of downtown. it's just hella fun walking down j street! okay, enough ranting. i just had a berry flavored wine cooler, so i'm feeling a little frisky. but yes, sac town! yee! :worship:

You are fun guy, Serg. :)

You may be right, Sactown is on the verge of greatness!

Do you think there are homophobes in this forum? I hope not....:eek:

Sacramento is supposed to be one of the most diverse, accepting and tolerant cities in America, right?

[BrianSac]

I personally have nothing but love for Sacramento.

The good: One of the most, if not the MOST, diverse city in America, as the 2002 study showed (it was in NY Times). Fair air quality. GREAT place to raise your kids and have a family. People are real and nice. Sacramento is growing fast as hell. People don't give a damn what color, race, or culture you are, everyone seems to get along.

I can't stand when people (mostly LA residents) talk about how there's nothing to do here from the entertainment standpoint. That's straight ignorant, because if you're not a chubby little couch potato who wants food handed to him, you will always find something to do.

Also, it's not a goddamn cow-town, and hasn't been that for a while. I believe Sacramento has one of the lowest cattle counts in all California, if I'm not mistaken. And no, it does NOT smell like cow poop in this city.

Message to the haters: If you don't like it, get your whiney ass out. A city is what you make it.

I hear ya. There ARE a lot of great things about Sacramento. :)

When I lived in Southern California, people would confuse Sacramento with Fresno, a lot.....especially when it came to cow poop, :yuck: :yes:

[Jay916]

ewww...Sacramento is so nasty, yucky, ..nothing to do...boring-ass city..cow poop everywhere. Yucky poos...stay the hell outa here!

btw..lemme know what you think of my cow in this pic from my downtown sacramento house...
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3660/cowwm0.jpg

[TWAK]

Sacramento ain't no Dixon, but It'll do
;)

[bennywah]

I'd have to agree that Sacramento is on the verge of making a name, or more of a name for itself in california. The population growth expected, excellent economic conditoins and employment options, availabilty of land (even though that can be bad, but get over it, suburbs will still happen, albiet they can be smater) and the diversity and closeness to various regions and natural beauty make it a viable place to live, work, and play.

Sacramento is right behind vegas in a lot of categories of growth, and many experts predict the continued explosive growth of this region. Like some have said it takes time to see things happen and change but they do, and will. I live in San Diego now, I love it and I feel I'm making roots down here finally, but since I'm a native of Sac it will always be in my heart, and most of my family is there so it'll always be "home" and its exciting to see the place change in what now seems like every month as opposed to years.

growing pains suck, delays, cancelations, and cant do attitudes are worse, but for those willing to try, try, and try harder can eventually turn the tide and get people to see the excitement and greatness of a place, a city, home, ect is what you make of it, so make it great by feeling its great, hell fake it till you make it, just gotta get through the growing pains before hitting the success of adulthood (or at least one hopes for success, lol)

[Grimnebulin]

Thanks for sharing, :) . I've never heard of the Panattonis & Domics.

1910's...thats a long time.

My Sacramento roots go back to 1968 when my father moved his family from Monterey (Seaside, CA) to Sacramento so he could buy his first home. Even back then, people from the bay area were moving to Sac because of cheaper home prices. My father was killed in action in Vietnam. He was a highly decorated Green Beret, and thus a street in Sacramento County was named for him. I've lived 2yrs in San Francisco(russian hill) and 4yrs in various parts of west and central Los Angeles. I spent all my summers of my jr. and high school yrs in San Deigos Clairemont District, so I've had my share of California cities.

Well, the Mondavi's (UC Davis Performing Art Center) and Spano's (Mercy Heart Center) families have started a trend in philanthropy, although neither are really from Sacramento.

Forgot about Mondavi and Spanos. :doh: Panattoni is a huge commercial development company - http://www.panattoni.com/aboutus.cfm. That big 6 story, 2-3 building office complex just south of 50 on Power Inn Road was one of many built by them locally, along with a bunch of buildings just across from Cal Expo, Elk Grove, etc. They have a lot of nationwide (and some European) commercial developments as well. They seem to like to run under the radar which is good in my book. Dain Domic was another local developer but I don't know how active they've been over the last few years though I think they own a fair amount of land locally.

[Brotha_Lynch]

ewww...Sacramento is so nasty, yucky, ..nothing to do...boring-ass city..cow poop everywhere. Yucky poos...stay the hell outa here!

btw..lemme know what you think of my cow in this pic from my downtown sacramento house...
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3660/cowwm0.jpg

Sorry to break the news, but I think you live in Davis. lol.

[What is a Rivercat?]

I grew up in Southern California and moved here in 2001. I love it here and would never live anywhere else in the state. This whole region is brimming with potential and I'm thrilled to be a part of what promises to be a true Sacramento renaissance.

[BrianSac]

Sacramento Cow on Cyrstal Meth.:banana:


pic taken by BrianSac in Los Angeles
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4308/39257903tl3.jpg

[Brotha_Lynch]

I grew up in Southern California and moved here in 2001. I love it here and would never live anywhere else in the state. This whole region is brimming with potential and I'm thrilled to be a part of what promises to be a true Sacramento renaissance.

Real talk!

Sacramento is way underrated. Of course it doesn't have the entertainment value of LA and the transportation of New York City, but I really don't see myself moving anywhere else.

[downtownserg89]

You are fun guy, Serg. :)

You may be right, Sactown is on the verge of greatness!

Do you think there are homophobes in this forum? I hope not....:eek:

Sacramento is supposed to be one of the most diverse, accepting and tolerant cities in America, right?


aw thanks BrianSac, you're pretty cool yourself. :cool:

i totally think sac is the next best thing. especially with the railyards going on, i don't plan on leaving sacramento anytime soon.

i don't think there are like hardcore homophobes, but i do sense like the whole "ehh, gay dude.. okay..." kinda thing, you know? but i really dont care at all. i'm not complaining. like you said, sacramento's pretty much the most diverse city in the nation! thats why i love it.

[downtownserg89]

Real talk!

Sacramento is way underrated. Of course it doesn't have the entertainment value of LA and the transportation of New York City, but I really don't see myself moving anywhere else.

well said, VLAD! hey you better answer your phone tomorrow night dammit.

[creamcityleo79]

aw thanks BrianSac, you're pretty cool yourself. :cool:

i totally think sac is the next best thing. especially with the railyards going on, i don't plan on leaving sacramento anytime soon.

i don't think there are like hardcore homophobes, but i do sense like the whole "ehh, gay dude.. okay..." kinda thing, you know? but i really dont care at all. i'm not complaining. like you said, sacramento's pretty much the most diverse city in the nation! thats why i love it.

Seriously, I'd say at LEAST 1/3 guys that post in the Sacramento threads of skyscraperpage.com are gay. There are a few homophobes, as there are anywhere else...but, to a lesser degree, in Sacramento. Sacramento is THE MOST DIVERSE place I've ever been. Trust me when I tell you that if you have lived in Sacramento your whole life and go to live somewhere else you will, most likely, be shocked at the lack of diversity. Unfortunately, I happen to move from the most diverse city in the country to one of the most segregated cities in the country (used to be #1...now it's #3). It literally made me sick. It was very difficult for me to live in a place where 1) the people weren't real; 2) races rarely mixed; 3) depending on your sexual preference, race, religion, class, etc. you were expected to live in a certain neighborhood. I say this in one of my last days here in Milwaukee and I appreciate Sacramento SO much after having lived here for almost 3 years. Sacramento is such a wonderful place with so much going for it. Whether or not tall buildings are built downtown, I will still love Sacramento and I will ALWAYS call it my home. Other cities have a lot to offer, too. But, to me, none will be as good as Sacramento. The diversity of trees, the diversity of people, the diversity of architecture, even the ecological diversity from the foothills to the flood plains to the rice fields to the valley oaks and the Sacramento River Delta...everything about it is home to me and I'm SO SO glad to be coming back HOME! :)

[BrianSac]

Seriously, I'd say at LEAST 1/3 guys that post in the Sacramento threads of skyscraperpage.com are gay. There are a few homophobes, as there are anywhere else...but, to a lesser degree, in Sacramento. Sacramento is THE MOST DIVERSE place I've ever been. Trust me when I tell you that if you have lived in Sacramento your whole life and go to live somewhere else you will, most likely, be shocked at the lack of diversity. Unfortunately, I happen to move from the most diverse city in the country to one of the most segregated cities in the country (used to be #1...now it's #3). It literally made me sick. It was very difficult for me to live in a place where 1) the people weren't real; 2) races rarely mixed; 3) depending on your sexual preference, race, religion, class, etc. you were expected to live in a certain neighborhood. I say this in one of my last days here in Milwaukee and I appreciate Sacramento SO much after having lived here for almost 3 years. Sacramento is such a wonderful place with so much going for it. Whether or not tall buildings are built downtown, I will still love Sacramento and I will ALWAYS call it my home. Other cities have a lot to offer, too. But, to me, none will be as good as Sacramento. The diversity of trees, the diversity of people, the diversity of architecture, even the ecological diversity from the foothills to the flood plains to the rice fields to the valley oaks and the Sacramento River Delta...everything about it is home to me and I'm SO SO glad to be coming back HOME! :)

Well said, I feel the same about the whole state of California, :yes: Welcome Home!

I hope to hear from Californias who have never been to Sacramento or rarely come here.

[goldcntry]

Seriously, I'd say at LEAST 1/3 guys that post in the Sacramento threads of skyscraperpage.com are gay. There are a few homophobes, as there are anywhere else...but, to a lesser degree, in Sacramento. Sacramento is THE MOST DIVERSE place I've ever been. Trust me when I tell you that if you have lived in Sacramento your whole life and go to live somewhere else you will, most likely, be shocked at the lack of diversity. Unfortunately, I happen to move from the most diverse city in the country to one of the most segregated cities in the country (used to be #1...now it's #3). It literally made me sick. It was very difficult for me to live in a place where 1) the people weren't real; 2) races rarely mixed; 3) depending on your sexual preference, race, religion, class, etc. you were expected to live in a certain neighborhood. I say this in one of my last days here in Milwaukee and I appreciate Sacramento SO much after having lived here for almost 3 years. Sacramento is such a wonderful place with so much going for it. Whether or not tall buildings are built downtown, I will still love Sacramento and I will ALWAYS call it my home. Other cities have a lot to offer, too. But, to me, none will be as good as Sacramento. The diversity of trees, the diversity of people, the diversity of architecture, even the ecological diversity from the foothills to the flood plains to the rice fields to the valley oaks and the Sacramento River Delta...everything about it is home to me and I'm SO SO glad to be coming back HOME! :)

Hear, Hear! I've been everywhere from Atlanta to Dallas; Minneapolis to Manteca. Sacramento is in many respects a great balance of the face of America and probably the most accepting society in the country. That's not to say that Sacto doesn't have its bad parts (it does!), bit its probably the closest thing to a "picture-perfect-chamber-of-commerce" picture postcard as you can get.

The city will continue to grow! I have faith in this, regardless of the current leaders in our city's and county's hallowed halls of government. We are really in our late adolescence here in Sactown. The promise is really beginning to bloom and mature. We still have a lot of growing to do, but the sign posts are there and we'll get there.

One more name for the family money list: the Ose's (Dougie, Mary, Susan, et al).

Morning dawns brightly
The youthful city rises
By the Rivers' flow

She grows so softly
Yet time can change her quickly
By the Rivers' flow

Fair or poor she grows
According to our dictates
By the Rivers' flow

Gather now all ye
A diamond we'll create here
By the Rivers' flow

:yinyang:

[What is a Rivercat?]

Seriously, I'd say at LEAST 1/3 guys that post in the Sacramento threads of skyscraperpage.com are gay. There are a few homophobes, as there are anywhere else...but, to a lesser degree, in Sacramento. Sacramento is THE MOST DIVERSE place I've ever been.

That's because it IS the most diverse place:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,340694,00.html

So it goes in America's most integrated city, as determined in research for TIME by the Civil Rights Project at Harvard University. In Sacramento everyone's a minority—including whites.

[greenmidtown]

Seriously, I'd say at LEAST 1/3 guys that post in the Sacramento threads of skyscraperpage.com are gay. There are a few homophobes, as there are anywhere else...but, to a lesser degree, in Sacramento. Sacramento is THE MOST DIVERSE place I've ever been. Trust me when I tell you that if you have lived in Sacramento your whole life and go to live somewhere else you will, most likely, be shocked at the lack of diversity. Unfortunately, I happen to move from the most diverse city in the country to one of the most segregated cities in the country (used to be #1...now it's #3). It literally made me sick. It was very difficult for me to live in a place where 1) the people weren't real; 2) races rarely mixed; 3) depending on your sexual preference, race, religion, class, etc. you were expected to live in a certain neighborhood. I say this in one of my last days here in Milwaukee and I appreciate Sacramento SO much after having lived here for almost 3 years. Sacramento is such a wonderful place with so much going for it. Whether or not tall buildings are built downtown, I will still love Sacramento and I will ALWAYS call it my home. Other cities have a lot to offer, too. But, to me, none will be as good as Sacramento. The diversity of trees, the diversity of people, the diversity of architecture, even the ecological diversity from the foothills to the flood plains to the rice fields to the valley oaks and the Sacramento River Delta...everything about it is home to me and I'm SO SO glad to be coming back HOME! :)

I definitely agree about the diversity part. Every year when I go back to visit Portland I'm stunned at the lack of diversity! Sac has so many different races, cultures, and languages that really make the city comfortable for all. It's very liberal and gay-friendly in the urban core. Davis is a cool college-town and the neighborhoods ringing downtown have so much character i.e. Land Park, East Sac, Alkali Flats, Curtis Park, Greenhaven, Sutterville etc.. I'm just not a fan of any of the suburbs here. They're all the same, bland, anywhere America. It's too bad this City caved in to developers and let them build even on flood plains! I stay in Midtown and I love it.

[downtownserg89]

so is sacramento really the most diverse in the U.S? what about SF? its bigger than sac, why isnt that the most diverse? why are we blessed with such label :shrug:

dont get me wrong i love the label, i'm just curious to know if we really are the most diverse, or at least top 3.

[Brotha_Lynch]

so is sacramento really the most diverse in the U.S? what about SF? its bigger than sac, why isnt that the most diverse? why are we blessed with such label :shrug:

dont get me wrong i love the label, i'm just curious to know if we really are the most diverse, or at least top 3.

Being the "most diverse" city has nothing to do with it's size. Example: A room of 10 kids: 2 whites, 3 blacks, and 5 asians, is NOT more diverse than a room of 5 kids of: 2 whites, 1 black, 1 hispanic, and 1 asian. It's not the AMOUNT of people, it's how a city is divided between all the different races.
wink

[ozone]

downtownserg89 asked for it;)

A couple of weeks ago I was at this bar talking to guy from Fresno and I asked him what Fresno was like. Now I had been Fresno several times so I had my own opinion but I wanted his. He told me that Fresno was just like Sacramento. I did'nt share his opinion but I kept my mouth shut. My neighbor is from Austin TX and he says that Sacramento is a lot like Austin but that it doesn't have the great music scene -I agree with him there- but as far as the built environment I think Sacramento has Austin beat by a mile (even with UT right downtown).

I think we need a borough system for Sacramento rather than see Sacramento County "Balkanized".

Part of the problem with our current system is that we council districts which are kind of "gerrymandered" with the downtown-midtown grid dissected and attacted to largely suburban districts. The interests and concerns of the residents in the suburbs is often different than those of us in the grid and visa versa.

Borough System for Sacramento: http://sacramental.blogspot.com/

[fflint]

Essay erased in protest of gratuitous and unprovoked Bay Area bashing

[downtownserg89]

Being the "most diverse" city has nothing to do with it's size. Example: A room of 10 kids: 2 whites, 3 blacks, and 5 asians, is NOT more diverse than a room of 5 kids of: 2 whites, 1 black, 1 hispanic, and 1 asian. It's not the AMOUNT of people, it's how a city is divided between all the different races.
wink


ohhhh, gotcha. yeah that reminds me of high school. there are ALWAYS different races in every class. thats what i loved about mcclatchy, downtown, and sacramento. however, there is still a lot of racism which saddens me. all the middle eastern kids are referred to terrorists still, i still remember this dude calling this guy osama bin laden just because he was bored. there's a joke for every race.

[BrianSac]

fflint,

And for a year while I was living in San Francisco I dated a guy in Rosemont, where I spent most of my weekends that year.

What a small world. My partner, who was born and raised in Carmichael, was living in Rosemont when we first met.

Today, hill living is a viable option if you have the money--just like in the coastal cities. That's different. It will, over the years, begin to significantly alter the psychological and cultural map of the region. And for the first time in the 150-year history of California civilization, a California metro area has crossed state lines--Sacramento's consolidated metropolitan area, according to the Census Bureau, now theoretically extends into Nevada.

I believe it already has altered the psychological and cultural map of the region. Both my sisters left Carmichael and Folsom because they felt the schools weren't "good enough" and because Carmichael and Folsom were "getting too crowded". They are responsible for some of the growth in El Dorado County as they specialize in building mini-mansions. After leaving Sacramento County, for Shingle Springs, they believe Folsom is the "new downtown", do you believe that.

I'll respond to your other thoughts shortly.

Excellent Contribution, btw. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. :cheers:

[SacUrbnPlnr]

I'll touch on one of your questions, the rest could be the basis for a novel... :D

Multi-generational wealth comparable to LA/SF - no. Off the top of my head (and that's not saying very much), the only multi-generational families with money here (the Benvenutis, Panattonis, Domics, Oates', Teicherts, Sacas, the new wave of Greek developers, etc.) have really happened in the last 30-40 years and might have 2 generations at most, and are nowhere near as wealthy as the SF/LA crowd.

[I'm sure I' missing a number of other families as well, but these are the main ones I've always heard about from family and other connections. Me - born and raised in Sacto, family has been here since the early 1910's in the East Sac and Fair Oaks/Watt area, lived in LA and the Bay Area/SF for 14 or so years, back in Sacto now for the last year.]

This is the main reason I feel that the arts here in Sacto are so lacking - there really are no deep pocketed and respected benefactors leading fundraising drives and when there are, the pool of money comparative to LA/SF is really shallow. Look at Eli Broad leading the Disney Center or the Getty's with their museum in SM. I really feel that the lack of multi-generational deep pockets and leadership is a reason that a lot of the arts in Sacto are so weak comparative to LA/SF. Just one of my opinions on Sacto. :speech:

-------------

Sacramento actually has a number of very prominent, multi-generational families of wealth (or at least former wealth), including the McClatcheys (Sacramento Bee), the Teales (Raleys), the Solomons (Tower Records), the Fats (Frank Fats), to name a few.

[BrianSac]

downtownserg89 asked for it;)

A couple of weeks ago I was at this bar talking to guy from Fresno and I asked him what Fresno was like. Now I had been Fresno several times so I had my own opinion but I wanted his. He told me that Fresno was just like Sacramento. I did'nt share his opinion but I kept my mouth shut. My neighbor is from Austin TX and he says that Sacramento is a lot like Austin but that it doesn't have the great music scene -I agree with him there- but as far as the built environment I think Sacramento has Austin beat by a mile (even with UT right downtown).

I think we need a borough system for Sacramento rather than see Sacramento County "Balkanized".

Part of the problem with our current system is that we council districts which are kind of "gerrymandered" with the downtown-midtown grid dissected and attacted to largely suburban districts. The interests and concerns of the residents in the suburbs is often different than those of us in the grid and visa versa.

Borough System for Sacramento: http://sacramental.blogspot.com/

I read only the first paragraph of your borough system blog, and I could not agree with you more. :tup: I'll read the rest of it later. :tup:

btw: that's interesting about Austin. I have not been to any Texas cities in a long long time. I really want to see how San Antonio and Austin compare to Sacramento.

[BrianSac]

Hear, Hear! I've been everywhere from Atlanta to Dallas; Minneapolis to Manteca. Sacramento is in many respects a great balance of the face of America and probably the most accepting society in the country. That's not to say that Sacto doesn't have its bad parts (it does!), bit its probably the closest thing to a "picture-perfect-chamber-of-commerce" picture postcard as you can get.

The city will continue to grow! I have faith in this, regardless of the current leaders in our city's and county's hallowed halls of government. We are really in our late adolescence here in Sactown. The promise is really beginning to bloom and mature. We still have a lot of growing to do, but the sign posts are there and we'll get there.

One more name for the family money list: the Ose's (Dougie, Mary, Susan, et al).

Morning dawns brightly
The youthful city rises
By the Rivers' flow

She grows so softly
Yet time can change her quickly
By the Rivers' flow

Fair or poor she grows
According to our dictates
By the Rivers' flow

Gather now all ye
A diamond we'll create here
By the Rivers' flow

:yinyang:

Here is my one word poem for your poem:

SWEET! :D

[BrianSac]

Response: Midtown Late 70's:

I remember Downtown/Midtown as a kid in the late 70's. Nobody, absolutely, nobody would be caught "dead" downtown after dark.

All those dicrepit Adams Family style Victorian homes were broken down with peeling paint. They were overwrought with overgrown camellia bushes, citrus trees, marijuana plants, huge elms and dark oaks. Downtown/Midtown was like a huge Haunted House Hollywood set. There were very little street lights. It was dark and scary and the East Area Rapist and the Zodiac killers were fresh on peoples minds.

This is when the "queers" started to move in. They were of two varieties: Country boys from the central valley & foothills. or Sun-starved down and out San Franciscans escaping big city life. Supposedly, The "queers" felt at home with all the other misfits downtown, but really they were there for the cheap rent and fabulous homes. They were itching to sow their oates by restoring virgin victorians, edwardians, and queen annes. The nickname "Lavender Heights" was born. My lesbian hippie butch aunt was part of that "cult". She single-handledly restored a rented Victorian which later burned to the ground after she passed out one night with a cigerette in her mouth.

I agree with you about J Street. Its like a mini, two-story slice of Castro, Filmore, Union or Judah.

I absolutely agree with you about walking and biking in downtown/midtown. Each mode of transportation gives you a slightly different experience. RollerBlading gives you, yet, another experience, too :tup:

[citizensf]

I haven't spent much time in your fair city, so my impression is highly superficial and almost limited to a single, indelibly etched memory: Murder Burger in Davis (is it still there?). I remember my gut being destroyed by the tasty treats we had there. It was fairly epic if I remember. Ginormo burger and baskets overflowing with fries aplenty. It almost made Tommy's in LA look healthy ;-)

[BTinSF]

My impressions:

- It's growing quite rapidly, mostly for the same reason Washington DC turned from a small southern city into a megalopolis while I was growing up there: lots of tax money and the people who get to spend it

- Houses are a lot cheaper than anywhere along the coast

- It's brutally hot in the summer

- I couldn't live there because of the Thule fog in winter which depresses the h*ll out of me

[BrianSac]

I haven't spent much time in your fair city, so my impression is highly superficial and almost limited to a single, indelibly etched memory: Murder Burger in Davis (is it still there?). I remember my gut being destroyed by the tasty treats we had there. It was fairly epic if I remember. Ginormo burger and baskets overflowing with fries aplenty. It almost made Tommy's in LA look healthy ;-)

Yep, i think its still there. They have ostrich burgers too. It's call Redrum Burger now....Like in the movie The Shining, where the boy keeps saying "Redrum", "Redrum", which is "Murder" spelled backwards.

[BTinSF]

This is when the "queers" started to move in. They were of two varieties: Country boys from the central valley & foothills. or Sun-starved down and out San Franciscans escaping big city life.

There's another variety and all the "queers" I've ever known who moved to Sacramento belong to it: ambitious political types who either get themselves elected to office, appointed to an office such as a board or commission or who get a job working for someone who was elected or appointed. I think this phenomenon started when "queer" politicos like Carole Migden, Shiela Kuehl and Mark Leno got elected and started looking out for other "queers".

[ozone]

I haven't spent much time in your fair city, so my impression is highly superficial and almost limited to a single, indelibly etched memory: Murder Burger in Davis (is it still there?). I remember my gut being destroyed by the tasty treats we had there. It was fairly epic if I remember. Ginormo burger and baskets overflowing with fries aplenty. It almost made Tommy's in LA look healthy ;-)

Yeah I love RedRum too. BTW citzensf I don't know much about the fair city of San Francisco but I remember how much I loved Naan & Curry on Telegraph Avenue. I also remember how brutally cold it gets there in the summer which depresses the h*ll out of me.

Sacramento is like Seville, New Orleans, Bangkok and hundreds of other cities around the world which have hot summers..so what? Heat shmet... love it.

[BrianSac]

My impressions:

- It's growing quite rapidly, mostly for the same reason Washington DC turned from a small southern city into a megalopolis while I was growing up there: lots of tax money and the people who get to spend it

- Houses are a lot cheaper than anywhere along the coast

- It's brutally hot in the summer

- I couldn't live there because of the Thule fog in winter which depresses the h*ll out of me

We havent had much fog in the past two years for some reason.

It doesnt take long to get used to the heat. We have air conditioners and there is always the Delta-Bay Breeze which really cools things down alot, almost nightly.

Compared to the rest of the nation Sacramento summers are not bad at all considering the low humidity. Remember, there is no place like SF in the summer; its summer weather is very unusual.

[BTinSF]

We have air conditioners

Er, air-conditioners? What be those?

[fflint]

I agree with you about J Street. Its like a mini, two-story slice of Castro, Filmore, Union or Judah.
You know, I think J Street is its own animal, and that is why--when it reaches critical mass--it will be notable. It doesn't remind me of any part of SF because it is more low-slung and nowhere near as noisy and congested. J Street feels mellow in a way SF just doesn't. The shops have a similar scale and layout to those along Ventura Boulevard in Los Angeles, but J Street itself is more pedestrian friendly because it is narrower and slower. I think they should restore J Street to two-way traffic and maybe even put a trolley line along it.

[Phillip]

Personal-Historical Narrative: Where I'm Coming From
My immediate family settled in the Sacramento region in 1990, in Rancho Murieta...I only noticed this interesting thread tonite (thank you for starting it BrianSac) and I just read it through all it once. When your name scrolled into view, fflint, the next thing I expected to see was "I'm shutting this thread down." You certainly didn't do that. Your essay---I hesitate to call it a "post"--- is one of the best things I've read on this board. You should submit it to the News and Review so it reaches the larger audience it deserves. Bravo! :worship:

[TowerDistrict]

- It's brutally hot in the summer

what's a bit ironic about your comment, is that Sacramento is right in the middle of Tucson and San Francisco in terms of average temperatures. just an example from weatherbase.com

Average June temperatures:

San Francisco: 60°F
Sacramento: 71°F
Tucson: 84°F

i don't really even mean to imply anything - i just felt like looking it up, and found that interesting. but honestly, you can't be all that depressed by fog and manage to live in Fog Town, now can you? ;)

[BrianSac]

You know, I think J Street is its own animal, and that is why--when it reaches critical mass--it will be notable. It doesn't remind me of any part of SF because it is more low-slung and nowhere near as noisy and congested. J Street feels mellow in a way SF just doesn't. The shops have a similar scale and layout to those along Ventura Boulevard in Los Angeles, but J Street itself is more pedestrian friendly because it is narrower and slower. I think they should restore J Street to two-way traffic and maybe even put a trolley line along it.

yes, i agree with you. SF is busy, active. I think what I meant is that midtown's J street is "neighborhood urban", unlike mostly suburban Sacramento. the 20&K area is also "neighborhood urban", higher-densities, nothing like SF densities, but still "urban". Alot of Santa Barbara's downtown is on the scale of Jstreet/20th&K.

Sacramento's midtown and downtown can and hopefully will be very special & unique on a national scale.

[BrianSac]

I only noticed this interesting thread tonite (thank you for starting it BrianSac) and I just read it through all it once. When your name scrolled into view, fflint, the next thing I expected to see was "I'm shutting this thread down." You certainly didn't do that. Your essay---I hesitate to call it a "post"--- is one of the best things I've read on this board. You should submit it to the News and Review so it reaches the larger audience it deserves. Bravo! :worship:

I thought the same thing, Philip. Kudos to all.

[TowerDistrict]

the harshest criticism i have for my relatively new hometown, is that Sacramento is a great place to live, but not so great to visit. This city has a long way to go before people from the bay are taking random weekend trips to kill some time and spend some money.

i've noticed that i like going to the bay as a visitor now - and i lived in there for 22 years.

[greenmidtown]

This is when the "queers" started to move in. They were of two varieties: Country boys from the central valley & foothills. or Sun-starved down and out San Franciscans escaping big city life. Supposedly, The "queers" felt at home with all the other misfits downtown, but really they were there for the cheap rent and fabulous homes. They were itching to sow their oates by restoring virgin victorians, edwardians, and queen annes. The nickname "Lavender Heights" was born. My lesbian hippie butch aunt was part of that "cult". She single-handledly restored a rented Victorian which later burned to the ground after she passed out one night with a cigerette in her mouth.


Interesting, I didn't know the history of the gay community in Midtown. I think the experience of Midtown Sac and other cities throughout the nation has re-enforced the belief that a thriving gay population is an indicator of growth and increasing property values in an urban area.

[BrianSac]

the harshest criticism i have for my relatively new hometown, is that Sacramento is a great place to live, but not so great to visit. This city has a long way to go before people from the bay are taking random weekend trips to kill some time and spend some money.

i've noticed that i like going to the bay as a visitor now - and i lived in there for 22 years.

I've been saying this a long long time. Sac needs at least one or two big time unique venues. Gosh, for 2.2 million we have almost nothing that is truely big and unique except for the Railroad Museum. All comparable metros of our size have either world class zoos or museums. The Railroad Museum and Crocker are great but they are still small potatoes. I think Cal Expo could be something grand, not sure what at this point its late and I'm sleepy. Unfortunately, the enviro-idiots would not stand for any development at cal-expo, the state can't make a profit, and the mckinley nimf*cks will stop any proposal there.

[BTinSF]

what's a bit ironic about your comment, is that Sacramento is right in the middle of Tucson and San Francisco in terms of average temperatures. just an example from weatherbase.com

Average June temperatures:

San Francisco: 60°F
Sacramento: 71°F
Tucson: 84°F

i don't really even mean to imply anything - i just felt like looking it up, and found that interesting. but honestly, you can't be all that depressed by fog and manage to live in Fog Town, now can you? ;)

First for the irony: I generally spend May - September in SF and November - April in Tucson. October is great in both places so that varies. Actually, though, while Tucson is far too hot for me to stick around into summer, it often isn't any hotter than Sacramento (although on average it is) and it's even less humid when it's hotter (in the July/August monsoon, the temps and humidity both become very Sacto-like). June is the hottest month in Tucson, by the way.

As for the fog--In San Francisco, it is sea fog; low clouds really that usually are not right on the ground and, where I live, usually lift by 10 or 11 AM and then picturesquely roll back in around 4:30 or 5. So we generally get 6 hours or so of good sun on summer days but with pleasantly cool temps in the upper 60's (the wind blowing steadily off the 50-something ocean water). The Thule fog I hate in the Central Valley hugs the ground making driving dangerous (and causing notorious pile-ups on I-5 and US 99) and sometimes it may pesist for days or even weeks in January as I'm sure you know. It's the fact that there are those days with no sun and ground-clinging mist that gets to me and the winter drizzle in SF has the same effect which is why I leave for a place that has glorious sunny days and shirtsleave temps all winter.

[BTinSF]

the harshest criticism i have for my relatively new hometown, is that Sacramento is a great place to live, but not so great to visit. This city has a long way to go before people from the bay are taking random weekend trips to kill some time and spend some money.



It's a bad drive and getting progressively worse. What would make me interested in trips to Sacto for fun and frolic would be frequent regular Capital Corridor service into the night and on weekends. I take BART to the Eastbay to play and if I didn't need a car and a high tolerance for traffic on I-80, I might take a train to Sacto.

[fflint]

Interesting, I didn't know the history of the gay community in Midtown. I think the experience of Midtown Sac and other cities throughout the nation has re-enforced the belief that a thriving gay population is an indicator of growth and increasing property values in an urban area.
Here's a little more gay Sacramento history for you: in 1991, when then-governor Pete Wilson vetoed a bill outlawing employment discrimination against gays, activists put out a call for a statewide march on Sacramento. I stayed at my parents' house that weekend to take part. For two days, there were ever-growing marches and rallies--through Old Sacramento, through Midtown from Winn Park to 20th St., and even at one point a blockade of the K Street onramp to I-5 and an hourlong sit-in on the Tower Bridge. The weekend culminated with a rally of 10,000 protesters who surrounded the capitol. On the East steps, police beat and then chased protesters out of Capitol Park. After the rally, with the city's blessing, a block of 20th Street between K and L streets was shut down for a huge outdoor gay rights festival and dance party that drew several thousand and lasted well into the night. Gayest weekend in Sacramento history, bar none.

[BrianSac]

Here's a little more gay Sacramento history for you: in 1991, when then-governor Pete Wilson vetoed a bill outlawing employment discrimination against gays, activists put out a call for a statewide march on Sacramento. I stayed at my parents' house that weekend to take part. For two days, there were ever-growing marches and rallies--through Old Sacramento, through Midtown from Winn Park to 20th St., and even at one point a blockade of the K Street onramp to I-5 and an hourlong sit-in on the Tower Bridge. The weekend culminated with a rally of 10,000 protesters who surrounded the capitol. On the East steps, police beat and then chased protesters out of Capitol Park. After the rally, with the city's blessing, a block of 20th Street between K and L streets was shut down for a huge outdoor gay rights festival and dance party that drew several thousand and lasted well into the night. Gayest weekend in Sacramento history, bar none.

I was there! We drove up from LA for that. We're Here, We're Queer, Get Used to It! :haha: it went something like that.

[BrianSac]

the harshest criticism i have for my relatively new hometown, is that Sacramento is a great place to live, but not so great to visit. This city has a long way to go before people from the bay are taking random weekend trips to kill some time and spend some money.

i've noticed that i like going to the bay as a visitor now - and i lived in there for 22 years.

:yes: This is why I am pro Dixon Downs. :yes:

Dixon racetrack promoters jockeying for the stretch run
As vote in city nears, the Toronto firm is optimistic, but foes also rally their forces.
By Debbie Arrington - Bee Staff Writer
Published 12:00 am PDT Sunday, April 1, 2007
Story appeared in METRO section, Page B2

Print | E-Mail | Comments (0)

With two weeks to go before the vote, Magna Entertainment Corp. officials in Toronto and California are redoubling their effort to win public approval for the Dixon Downs racetrack development.

"Michael Neuman, our CEO, is totally committed to Dixon Downs, as is our chairman Frank Stronach," said MEC Vice President Dennis Mills, who is the Canadian company's main representative in Dixon. "Every day, Michael wants to know how the project is going."

Dixon Downs supporters say a state-of-the-art racetrack and entertainment destination, with a proposed 1.4 million square feet of retail space, would be a logical solution for the future of racing in Northern California.



The 73-year-old Bay Meadows Race Course is set to close in November.

While Sacramento's Cal Expo and county fair tracks scramble to grab Bay Meadows' 120 racing dates for 2008, MEC -- North America's largest racetrack operator -- also will be "very, very bullish on racing dates," Mills said.

But instead of partnering with a fair to get some of those dates, the company is sticking to its priority: building a facility in Dixon.

"We're not negotiating with Cal Expo," Mills said. "Dixon Downs will have every bit as much to offer, if not more (than other tracks) for available racing dates. If we need a stopgap, we have a fine alternative in Golden Gate Fields."

Golden Gate Fields, in Albany, is owned by MEC.

Dixon voters will decide April 17 on four referendums -- Measures M, N, O and P -- that will decide the fate of the $250 million project.

Opponents cite increased traffic and gambling as major concerns.

"We'll be working real hard right up to the minute the polls close," said Marime Burton, the opposition campaign chairwoman. "We're concentrating on getting out the vote."

Dixon Downs would be "much more than a racetrack," Mills added.

"There's tremendous interest in the retail possibilities attached to Dixon Downs," he said.

The project got a boost last week, as more than 100 Dixon businesses added their names in support.

[SoCal Alan]

I haven't spent much time in your fair city, so my impression is highly superficial and almost limited to a single, indelibly etched memory: Murder Burger in Davis (is it still there?). I remember my gut being destroyed by the tasty treats we had there. It was fairly epic if I remember. Ginormo burger and baskets overflowing with fries aplenty. It almost made Tommy's in LA look healthy ;-)

Nations Burgers in Davis was really good. And Grad burgers in the Graduate. I don't think Nations is in Davis anymore, though. :wah:

[Grimnebulin]

You know, I think J Street is its own animal, and that is why--when it reaches critical mass--it will be notable. It doesn't remind me of any part of SF because it is more low-slung and nowhere near as noisy and congested. J Street feels mellow in a way SF just doesn't. The shops have a similar scale and layout to those along Ventura Boulevard in Los Angeles, but J Street itself is more pedestrian friendly because it is narrower and slower. I think they should restore J Street to two-way traffic and maybe even put a trolley line along it.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/html/emoticons/iagree.gif

And fflint, great write-up on Sacto. I just moved back here last summer from Berkeley/SF/SJ (last 12 years), and your write up was great. :tup:

[Grimnebulin]

so is sacramento really the most diverse in the U.S? what about SF? its bigger than sac, why isnt that the most diverse? why are we blessed with such label :shrug:

dont get me wrong i love the label, i'm just curious to know if we really are the most diverse, or at least top 3.

serge - You also might want to consider integration along with diversity. While Sacramento might be more"diverse" than SF, I think the Bay Area is much more integrated. Over my last 12 years in the Bay Area, I was friends with just about every ethnic and sexual persuasion around. Since being back here in Sacto, my own personal feeling is that the those different groups do not mix together nearly as much here as in the Bay. I feel there's a lot more balkinazation here in Sacto...just my 2 cents.

And BTW - your writings really liven up the board. Nice work. http://www.s2ki.com/forums/html/emoticons/banana.gif

[TowerDistrict]

It's a bad drive and getting progressively worse. What would make me interested in trips to Sacto for fun and frolic would be frequent regular Capital Corridor service into the night and on weekends. I take BART to the Eastbay to play and if I didn't need a car and a high tolerance for traffic on I-80, I might take a train to Sacto.

my friends that live in SF take the train up here often. It's not cheap, but neither are the bridge tolls and gas now. the train ride only takes about 1.5 hours, and it's a nice ride. sacramento's light rail system was recently connected to the amtrak station, so you can basically travel from anywhere in the bay to anywhere in sacramento without use of a car. unfortuntaley it still doesn't mean there's an irresistible reason to visit sacramento, unless you'd just like to experience another city's environment for a day.

i think a bad trap that sacramento could potentially fall into during these pivitol years, would be to try and draw more of the same sort of amenities that every other self-sufficient city in northern california already has. if sacramento wants to draw visitors consistently, we've got to supply something totally unique. and i think fflint was exactly right, in that the railyards respresent that opportunity.

[downtownserg89]

serge - You also might want to consider integration along with diversity. While Sacramento might be more"diverse" than SF, I think the Bay Area is much more integrated. Over my last 12 years in the Bay Area, I was friends with just about every ethnic and sexual persuasion around. Since being back here in Sacto, my own personal feeling is that the those different groups do not mix together nearly as much here as in the Bay. I feel there's a lot more balkinazation here in Sacto...just my 2 cents.

And BTW - your writings really liven up the board. Nice work. http://www.s2ki.com/forums/html/emoticons/banana.gif


why thank you grimneblin! yeah, i'd assume that the bay would be more publicly advanced somehow. i do think sac has the potential of getting a bit more integrated. like at mcclatchy high, there is a multicultural day which allows students from different ethnic backgrounds to bring food and perform dances with traditional outfits and stuff. i think that kind of stuff helps everyone get familiar with ethnicities and well, makes them more aware and ethnic friendly, you catch my drift?:tomato: :cucumber: :banana: :apple: :pepper: :fruit:

[ozone]

I've been saying this a long long time. Sac needs at least one or two big time unique venues. Gosh, for 2.2 million we have almost nothing that is truely big and unique except for the Railroad Museum. All comparable metros of our size have either world class zoos or museums. The Railroad Museum and Crocker are great but they are still small potatoes. I think Cal Expo could be something grand, not sure what at this point its late and I'm sleepy. Unfortunately, the enviro-idiots would not stand for any development at cal-expo, the state can't make a profit, and the mckinley nimf*cks will stop any proposal there.

BrianSac as I understand the CalExpo issue is that it's not so much the "enviro-idiots" as you call them that's the problem with CalExpo as much as the East Sac NIMBYS and CalExpo's own piss a*s board. It's true that environmentalists and natural recreationalists have blocked any development of Bushy Lake area because they wanted to maintain the natural character of the ARP but from the little contact I have had with the CalExpo people I've come to the conclusion that either they are unable or unwilling to see beyond the limited and outdated original purpose of CalExpo. And the city doesn't seem to be that interested in any major changes. It's the same old story of real lack of vision.

There is a lot of land north of the Bushy Lake/ARP araea that can be developed. There was a major study done in the 80's and several major changes were proposed...even an amusement park was floated as an option but nothing came of it.

I agree with you that CalExpo should move beyond it's state fair/trade show program. Why not build an regional amusement park and sports arena on the huge overflow parking lots and build parking garages along Expo Blvd?
CalExpo could still easily host the state fair and trade shows within the exsiting grounds..they'd only be replacing the temporary carnival and RV space. In fact, both a sports arena and amusement park would fit very well within the CalExpo framework and each would support the other...as well as improve Sacramento's ability to attract major conventions.

[TWAK]

Murder Burger in Davis (is it still there?)
It's Redrum Burger now, unless they changed it back to Murder Burger.
Best shakes EVAR

[Deno]

Anything big or world class to be built in Sacramento needs a 20 year plan with study groups after the 20 years is over.
from a 40+ year resident

[ozone]

Anything big or world class to be built in Sacramento needs a 20 year plan with study groups after the 20 years is over.
from a 40+ year resident


I agree that needs to change. I think these people are so used to and comfortable with the academic/consultant/review process that they think its the way it should be. It may be 'normal' but is it good? Plus for some it's job security and h*lla easier to work on fewer projects over a long period. :slob:

[BrianSac]

I agree that needs to change. I think these people are so used to and comfortable with the academic/consultant/review process that they think its the way it should be. It may be 'normal' but is it good? Plus for some it's job security and h*lla easier to work on fewer projects over a long period. :slob:

You hit nail on the head. That is a big part of the problem.

[BTinSF]

unfortuntaley it still doesn't mean there's an irresistible reason to visit sacramento, unless you'd just like to experience another city's environment for a day.

i think a bad trap that sacramento could potentially fall into during these pivitol years, would be to try and draw more of the same sort of amenities that every other self-sufficient city in northern california already has. if sacramento wants to draw visitors consistently, we've got to supply something totally unique. and i think fflint was exactly right, in that the railyards respresent that opportunity.

Actually, for me, a train fan, there has long been a pretty hard to resist reason to visit:

Located in Old Sacramento, the California State Railroad Museum is a complex of historic facilities and unique attractions. Widely regarded as one of North America’s finest and most visited railroad museums, there is something here for everyone! Throughout the year, experience lavishly restored trains, engaging exhibits, and unique special events. Every weekend April-September, ride behind a steam locomotive on the Museum’s Sacramento Southern Railroad.

http://www.csrmf.org/images/museum_pic.jpg

http://www.csrmf.org/images/eet-special-trns.jpg

http://www.csrmf.org/images/3-trn-rides.jpg

See http://www.csrmf.org/default.asp

[TowerDistrict]

totally. and as i was saying about the railyards redevelopment, the museum will be expanding into one of the historic shops to open the Railroad Technology Museum (http://www.csrmf.org/doc.asp?id=374).

[BrianSac]

The California Indian Heritage Center is planned for the banks of the American River in Sacramento


http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/4569/cihclogote7.tif
image/logo care of California State Parks

click on link for more information:
http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=22628 (http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=22628)

[Phillip]

Here's a little more gay Sacramento history for you:And here's a little more, though sketchy.

West Sacramento has a gay pedigree going back much further than Christopher Cabaldon and Ikea.

Several years ago I purchased an item on Ebay from a seller in LA. Emails about shipping arrangements led to an exchange that went on for months and wandered across many topics. The seller was in his 70’s then and retired from the wholesale jewelry business. During the late 1960’s/early 1970’s his territory had been the Central Valley, from Bakersfield to Chico. A couple times a year he packed his sample cases and drove from LA up Highway 99, showing his wares to the finest jewelry stores up and down the Valley.

The subject turned to Sacramento, where I’d lived but left. He hadn’t visited Sacramento in 30 years but the two things he remembered most were the Senator Hotel, how classy and comfortable it was; and taking a taxi from the Senator across a bridge to the gay life in what’s now West Sacramento. West Sac was still three separate towns then---Broderick, Bryte, and Southport. He said there were several gay bars there, a bathhouse, adult bookstores, and of course the cheap motels along Capitol Avenue.

As he described “Across the Bridge” it wasn't specifically a gay area. It sounded more like a general vice district with honkytonks, prostitution, gambling houses, fights. I tried to pin down more where those gay bars and businesses were located but 30 years later he couldn’t say. He recalled things being “near the river” so probably in Broderick, near the west bank of the Sacramento.

I asked if there were any gay bars in Downtown Sacramento then and he didn’t know. He remembered gay bars in downtown Bakersfield and downtown Fresno, but in Sacramento “Across the Bridge” was where he went.


:runaway: :rainbow:

[BrianSac]

And here's a little more, though sketchy.

West Sacramento has a gay pedigree going back much further than Christopher Cabaldon and Ikea.

Several years ago I purchased an item on Ebay from a seller in LA. Emails about shipping arrangements led to an exchange that went on for months and wandered across many topics. The seller was in his 70’s then and retired from the wholesale jewelry business. During the late 1960’s/early 1970’s his territory had been the Central Valley, from Bakersfield to Chico. A couple times a year he packed his sample cases and drove from LA up Highway 99, showing his wares to the finest jewelry stores up and down the Valley.

The subject turned to Sacramento, where I’d lived but left. He hadn’t visited Sacramento in 30 years but the two things he remembered most were the Senator Hotel, how classy and comfortable it was; and taking a taxi from the Senator across a bridge to the gay life in what’s now West Sacramento. West Sac was still three separate towns then---Broderick, Bryte, and Southport. He said there were several gay bars there, a bathhouse, adult bookstores, and of course the cheap motels along Capitol Avenue.

As he described “Across the Bridge” it wasn't specifically a gay area. It sounded more like a general vice district with honkytonks, prostitution, gambling houses, fights. I tried to pin down more where those gay bars and businesses were located but 30 years later he couldn’t say. He recalled things being “near the river” so probably in Broderick, near the west bank of the Sacramento.

I asked if there were any gay bars in Downtown Sacramento then and he didn’t know. He remembered gay bars in downtown Bakersfield and downtown Fresno, but in Sacramento “Across the Bridge” was where he went.


:runaway: :rainbow:

Phillip,
Interesting. One of my best friends is a 70+ retired UC Davis Spanish Professor. He came to Sacramento/Davis in his early 30's so he could live freely as a gay man away from his native Texas.

He says when he first arrived in the mid 60's there were at least two gay bars a block away from the Capitol building on K street before it was a mall.

One of the bars was sort of a hang out for legislative staffers during lunchtime and after work. As the night wore on the "queers" would show up and it became a "fag" bar by night.

Apparently, when a certain District Attorney of Sacramento County was elected he/she cleaned-up Sacramento County and drove all the vice and bad elements like "fag" bars out of the county.

This was during the time when police regularly raided "fag" bars, harassed its customers, and strong-armed bar owners for a piece of the nights profits. If bar owners didnt comply they would shut-down the bar.

Because the "fag" bars were run out of Sacramento, several new gay bars opened up across the river in Yolo county. One of the bars was called the "Hula Hut"; it had a Hawaiian theme. Apparently, It was quite the happening place drawing bay area gay folks who were looking to "slum" it for the weekend. I believe the place survived for 10plus years, closing down some time in the early 80's.

Another piece of gay bar history: Now I am dating myself....the first under 21 yr old gay bar was Bojangles on Folsom blvd behind Sac State. Every gay boy and girl "came out" at Bojangles. In the mid-80's it already had a "history" and it was the only place gay youth could go to be with kids like themselves. (America was even less accepting and tolerant of gay folks 20yrs ago.) The place is called, "The Library" now.
I believe the current owner of Faces, Terry Sidie, opened the first orignal Bojangles danceclub. He was a youngster himself and quite the pioneer in the business world.
:runaway: :rainbow:

[fflint]

I remember Bojangles (never went in there but passed it on my way to the Jackson Hwy).

Thing is, though, it wasn't a gay bar in the late '80s and very early '90s, it was the glorious Cattle Club--where Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins and many other amazing bands played before they got huge.

[goldcntry]

Here is my one word poem for your poem:

SWEET! :D


:tomato: T'anks Brian! I'll keep working on being the unofficial Sactown Haiku Master...

In other observations, Bojangles, now the Library, seems to be going toward the country persuasion now. KNCI (105.1 FM) now broadcasts its Friday and Saturday night shows from there. This is actually a nice thing as the Library was rarely if ever open... at least before I'd go nighty-nite.

[BrianSac]

I remember Bojangles (never went in there but passed it on my way to the Jackson Hwy).

Thing is, though, it wasn't a gay bar in the late '80s and very early '90s, it was the glorious Cattle Club--where Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins and many other amazing bands played before they got huge.

Yes, I remember going to the Cattle Club once or twice. Bojangles must have closed down sometime in '86, '87, or '88.

[urban_encounter]

What I love about Sacramento...



The 6 million trees. Especially throughout the established city proper....



The Midtown vibe



The American River (and Parkway)



Boating on the Sacramento River in the Summer



The Delta Breeze



Dining alfresco at one of the many sidewalk cafes, coffee houses, or at one of the many new restaurants opening DT/MT



The burgeoning (yet unpretentious) art scene (especially second Saturday)



Friday Night Concert in the Park...



Skakespeare Festival in the Park (William A. Carroll Amphitheatre in William Land Park)...A wonderful place to open a bottle of Old Vine Zinfindel...



Sacramento's proximity to all of California's best wine regions:


Sonoma
Napa
El Dorado Hills
Lodi
Delta


Midtown's nightlife wasn't much when I was younger, but all of the recent changes are impressive and Sacramento is in the midst of creating a rather vibrant gay community in Lavender Heights....


I love that you can see the Sierra and the Coast Range on a clear morning, afternoon or evening...



I love Sacramento's traditional old neighborhoods:



I love Sacramento's historical significance:
It's ties to the Gold Rush, "The Big Four" of Crocker, Hopkins, Stanford and Huntington, The Transcontinental Railroad and The Pony Express.



There's so much to love about Sacramento and still recognize the potential.
I suppose that's why I am still passionate about Northern Calfiornia and particularly Sacramento. It's strength is it's natural character, the trees, the rivers, and the laid back pace of the city.. (BTW laid back no longer means boring in Sacramento).. But there is an inviting comfortable pace, in downtown and midtown, that i haven't found in too many places.. I still remember how a Los Angeles Times reporter characterized Sacramento as the "Big Easy Chair". A description I have always clinged to...

The nightlife and dining options have gotten progressivley better.
But there's still much to do. K street, Downtown Plaza, The Riverfront and the Railyards. But as TowerDistrict pointed out, Sacramento could fall for the temptation of trying to lure the same sort of amenities that every other city in Northern California already has. For example Gretta's Cafe having been replaced by Chipotle......


Sacramento must guard against surrendering it's character, embrace it's history and strive to create a vibrant community that recognizes and plays off of it's unique geographical position. Some people would lament that the fact that Sacramento is not a coastal city as are it's three larger siblings of SF,LA and SD. But i love Sacramento's position in the valley and it's proximity to everything...

Sacramento is nestled between the Sierra and Coastal Mountain range, at the confluence of the Sacramento and America River, in one of the most fertile valleys in the world... A city surrouned by wetlands to the West, North and South... A region practically surrounded by California's most precious agricultural product; wine grapes..

In fact, as some locals may not realize, the number of harvested acres of wine grapes in Sacramento County, has in increased nearly 90% since 1997 making it Sacramento's largest agricultural commodity....


My hope for Sacramento over the next ten years is to see:

The return of streetcars

The Riverfront developed

The Railyards developed

K street turn around

DT Plaza remodeled

A new performing arts center or remodel of the CCT

A new arena (preferably DT, or the Triangle of West Sacramento), but anywhere would be preferable to not at all.


So much to love, but still much to accomplish....

Here's hoping

[NewToCA]

Since I have only recently moved into the area I have little to contribute about the evolution of Sacramento. I have found many of the postings interesting and informative and I appreciate all of the insights (excellent posting BTW, fflint).

My wife and I moved here from Ohio, after growing up in Philly and spending much of our adult lives raising our children in Ohio and Washington DC. It is a very relaxed and open environment here, and we enjoy going out and walking around the downtown and midtown areas. Very casual atmosphere, and doesn't seem nearly as clannish as other places we have lived.

We look forward to the upgrading of Downtown Plaza and K St. We also look forward to the development of the Railyards, and want to see the city evolve. Being a tourist destination isn't something I think Sacramento needs to do, being a great place to raise a family is important.

I like the inclusive atmosphere too. Other places I have lived have been varying degrees of "tolerant" of various (especially gay) lifestyles, but Sacramento seems to embrace the differences. I think this is an exceptionally important aspect of life here, and so far it is my favorite part of the area attitude.

[goldcntry]

Well said NewToCa... and welcome home to the familia del Sacramento (apologies for the abuse of the spanish language!).

[BrianSac]

Yes, I remember going to the Cattle Club once or twice. Bojangles must have closed down sometime in '86, '87, or '88.

fflint,
You got me thinking about Bojangles, Cattle Club and Faces. I may be wrong, but I think the original Bojangles became the Cattle Club in 1985. Terry Sidie sold Bojangles to the Cattle Club owners when he decided to open Faces.

Faces is probably one of the most successful and longest running danceclubs in Northern California. The club took a major turn in the late, late 90's when it started to attract "straight" people on a large scale.

Terry (a gay man) embraced his new customers with open arms to the chagrin of some gay folks, which created the niche for a new gay bar, The Depot, across the street. But, because Faces has so many different venues and is a true Danceclub, it never lost its appeal to gay folks.

Faces is known not only for "Large Marge", the witty DragQueen bartender and manager of Head Hunters, a new gay bar, but for Jeff, the doorman, who remembers everyones name, no matter how long it has been since you've been there. This guy has a photographic memory and never forgets a face, especially if you've been thrown out of the place.

[Phillip]

What I love about Sacramento...
I enjoyed that, urban_encounter.

I've been wanting to ask you for awhile...Do you like living in Chicago?

[BrianSac]

What I love about Sacramento...


Sacramento's proximity to all of California's best wine regions:


Sonoma
Napa
El Dorado Hills
Lodi
Delta


Great write-up, UrbanEncounter,
I love all those things about Sacramento too.

:previous:
You forgot Amador County, Shenendoah Valley and environs. I have family that started growing Zinfandel grapes as a hobby which grew into a side-business selling their grapes to winemakers, which led to them making their own wine. This year they are looking to start their own label. I have cases of Zinfandel wine, can't drink it all! :drunk:

[goldcntry]

Great write-up, UrbanEncounter,
I love all those things about Sacramento too.

:previous:
You forgot Amador County, Shenendoah Valley and environs. I have family that started growing Zinfandel grapes as a hobby which grew into a side-business selling their grapes to winemakers, which led to them making their own wine. This year they are looking to start their own label. I have cases of Zinfandel wine, can't drink it all! :drunk:

Amen and Amen! Support our local families and our vines!:drunk: Between my Dad's and my Aunties' vinyards in Shenendoah, we grow roughly 400 acres of Zin grapes (currently, we sell our grapes to Renwood Wine). A bottle a week... It's all we ask! In Vino Veritas!

[urban_encounter]

Great write-up, UrbanEncounter,
I love all those things about Sacramento too.

Thank's Brian

I enjoyed that, urban_encounter.

I've been wanting to ask you for awhile...Do you like living in Chicago?


Thanks Phillip I appreciate the comments..

I love Chicago, because it is truly an absolutely amazing city.
Not just because it is a mecca for urban living and skyscrapers (i think there roughly 26-30 highrises u/c just in central city proper); but because of the transportation options, the lakefront, the festivals, the performing and visual arts, the vibe on the streets, in the city and surrounding neighborhoods..
Even the city's motto is "The City that Works".. The streets are spotless, this city doesn't seem to have excessive problems with homlessness, (not to say that it doesn't exist, I just think between city, county and the local churches working together, minimize the negative effects...)

This is also a city of trees and parks and in fact the Lakefront is one large manicured park stretching almost 30 miles....

Within the city itself are many neighborhoods that all have a distinct feel and identity of their own...

I'm also very impressed how this city's get's things done. It is definitely a strong Mayor form of Government, and things progress here much more quickly, simply because politicians aren't afraid to make decisions.

I know locals here at times compalin about the "L", though I have nothing but praise for it, because the Red line (which is about a block away from were I live), runs 24 hours a day and it seems like there is a train every couple of minutes. Honestly I don't think that I've ever waited for more than 5 minutes for a train here.


But one of my favorite things about Chicago is the midwest charm of the place. It's still a very progressive and diverse city, but there's a feel to it that (like Sacramento) is very inviting and comfortable...

I think that's why many people who have lived in the midwest and moved or traveled to Sacramento, say that it feels more like a midwest city than a west coast city...

That is something that is unique to Sacramento in California, that no other city in California can duplicate, (that I'm aware of)..

BTW something else that i love about Sacramento and that i failed to mention, is the four seasons...


Autumns are probably among the most striking of any California City.

Winters are cool and wet but you are never more than a short drive from the snow line (in fact as the burbs continue to creep eastward the snow line seems to get closer)..

Summers' can admittedly get hot, but they sure make for great boating, swimming, rafting and BBQ weather. Those Delta Breezes that blow in the marine air in the evenings and early mornings, make the hot afternoons a small price to pay...

Spring in Sacramento (like the Autumn) is absolutely stunning.


As much as I love Chicago and would find it difficult or near impossible to find another city to dupilcate everything it offers, I would never rule out a return to Northern California one day, because I love it that much... But for now I'm loving my new home and making the most of my time here...

[urban_encounter]

:previous:
You forgot Amador County, Shenendoah Valley and environs. I have family that started growing Zinfandel grapes as a hobby which grew into a side-business selling their grapes to winemakers, which led to them making their own wine. This year they are looking to start their own label. I have cases of Zinfandel wine, can't drink it all! :drunk:


Absolutely, Amador County has come into it's own and certainly is making wonderful wines..

BTW Brian, if you need help polishing away some of those Zins, I will be back in Sacramento from early June until early July and I'm sure some of the other formers wouldn't mind helping you and I put a dent in that stock either..... ;) j/k


:cheers:


btw what label does your family bottle under???

[rs913]

my friends that live in SF take the train up here often. It's not cheap, but neither are the bridge tolls and gas now. the train ride only takes about 1.5 hours, and it's a nice ride. sacramento's light rail system was recently connected to the amtrak station, so you can basically travel from anywhere in the bay to anywhere in sacramento without use of a car. unfortuntaley it still doesn't mean there's an irresistible reason to visit sacramento, unless you'd just like to experience another city's environment for a day.

I did exactly this a few weeks ago...took Capitol Corridor from Richmond to Sacramento for a Saturday daytrip. Very relaxing ride, near-empty trains, decent scenery, $12 each way with off-peak discount. Drops you off in downtown within walking distance of everything. My impressions are those of a first-time visitor, but I liked downtown Sac.

J and K sts were pretty dead on Saturday, but they seem to have potential, very similar to downtown San Jose.

The Capitol tours run every hour, 7 days a week, even though the building is near-empty on weekends. It's worth doing.

The parks are gorgeous (Capitol Plaza and the riverfront area).

Old Sacramento, where most of the Saturday crowds were, was a fun place to kill a couple hours even if the stores are Fisherman's Wharf-type tourist traps. The link between that area and Downtown Plaza is cool, and if Westfield could renovate that mall, it'd add more to the area.

I only visited one of the museums, the railroad museum, but it was worth the time...and would be even more so now that the locomotive ride thing is operating. Next time I'm in town I'll probably check out the CA museum.

It was a very relaxing getaway and worth checking out if you're a Bay Area resident who's never been. You can also make a pitstop in Davis on the way, and spend an hour or two checking out that town on foot.

[dimondpark]

Sacramento is probably the best place to raise a family perhaps in the whole state. It doesnt have the neverending feeling of hustle and bustle that one finds in The Bay Area or Los Angeles. At the same time, its a lot more cultured and diverse then most people on the coast could ever imagine. Some in Sacramento hate the stereotype that coastalites have of the place but I think its one of the biggest blessings Sacramento has. That's the feeling I got after living there for three years.

[BTinSF]

Well, let's add among Sacramento's high points "proximity to the birthplace of BT's cat": http://www.exoticbengals.com/

http://www.exoticbengals.com/title1.gif

[downtownserg89]

i dont know if its just sacramento, or its like this everywhere, but a huge portion of sacramentans are stoners! this city truly is the "city of trees!" :drooling:

[urban_encounter]

i dont know if its just sacramento, or its like this everywhere, but a huge portion of sacramentans are stoners! this city truly is the "city of trees!" :drooling:


Could it be that you just happen to be acquainted with a "huge portion" of "stoners"??

[BrianSac]

Why I love Sacramento:
Lots of dog & cat lovers. Abundant parks, dog parks, and the American River Parkway....dogs love the ice cold water in the Summer!!

Pic taken by BrianSac of my Dog
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8814/32313448af0.jpg

[urban_encounter]

Faces Jeff, the doorman, who remembers everyones name, no matter how long it has been since you've been there.


:haha:

That's the truth...

Is Jeff still working the door at Faces?

[BrianSac]

:haha:

That's the truth...

Is Jeff still working the door at Faces?

He was working the door a month or two ago. I was shocked that he was still there. He is a great guy!

[BrianSac]

Absolutely, Amador County has come into it's own and certainly is making wonderful wines..

BTW Brian, if you need help polishing away some of those Zins, I will be back in Sacramento from early June until early July and I'm sure some of the other formers wouldn't mind helping you and I put a dent in that stock either..... ;) j/k


:cheers:


btw what label does your family bottle under???

There is no label yet, my brother-in-law's famly makes zinfandel wine and bottles it on a very small scale for themselves, extended-family, and friends. Most of their grapes are sold to other winemakers; its a co-op situation. They are working on producing more wine and getting a label/distributor. :)

[Brotha_Lynch]

i dont know if its just sacramento, or its like this everywhere, but a huge portion of sacramentans are stoners! this city truly is the "city of trees!" :drooling:


Dude every city is a Stoner City. Marijuanna has been "secretly" legalized quiet a while back. :notacrook:

[dktshb]

I personally have nothing but love for Sacramento.

The good: One of the most, if not the MOST, diverse city in America, as the 2002 study showed (it was in NY Times). Fair air quality. GREAT place to raise your kids and have a family. People are real and nice. Sacramento is growing fast as hell. People don't give a damn what color, race, or culture you are, everyone seems to get along.

I can't stand when people (mostly LA residents) talk about how there's nothing to do here from the entertainment standpoint. That's straight ignorant, because if you're not a chubby little couch potato who wants food handed to him, you will always find something to do.

Also, it's not a goddamn cow-town, and hasn't been that for a while. I believe Sacramento has one of the lowest cattle counts in all California, if I'm not mistaken. And no, it does NOT smell like cow poop in this city.

Message to the haters: If you don't like it, get your whiney ass out. A city is what you make it.:rolleyes: Whatever dude, this Angeleno happens to like Sacramento.

[BrianSac]

More reasons to Love Sacramento:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3601/200dp1vb0.jpg
Corti Brothers Family Grocery. This place has the best wines in Sacramento.
Celebrating its 60th year in 2007.

Gunthers Ice Cream Parlor:dunce: also family-run!

[Grimnebulin]

Amen and Amen! Support our local families and our vines!:drunk: Between my Dad's and my Aunties' vinyards in Shenendoah, we grow roughly 400 acres of Zin grapes (currently, we sell our grapes to Renwood Wine). A bottle a week... It's all we ask! In Vino Veritas!


Hey - we just had a bottle of Mt. Aukum Syrah and 2 of C.G. DiAire Syrah - bring on the un-labeled Zins!

Cruising up to C.G. DiAire, Mt. Aukum, the Dutch winery, plus another on April 14/15th...love the Zins and Italian wines up there! :tup:

BrianSac - where are the Zins? We need a Meat. :D

[Grimnebulin]

More reasons to Love Sacramento:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3601/200dp1vb0.jpg
Corti Brothers Family Grocery. This place has the best wines in Sacramento.
Celebrating its 60th year in 2007.

Gunthers Ice Cream Parlor:dunce: also family-run!

My grandfather grew up with Darryl Corti - I've been going to Corti Bros for 35+ years!

Went to Gunther's last Thurs - the Bing Cherry ice cream was great. :tup:

[Grimnebulin]

There is no label yet, my brother-in-law's famly makes zinfandel wine and bottles it on a very small scale for themselves, extended-family, and friends. Most of their grapes are sold to other winemakers; its a coop situation. They are working on producing more wine and getting a label/distributor. :)

Sounds very promising. :tup:

The wine bar here at 1801 L is opening April 14th BTW. I think it's a private party but everyone should be able to get in come the 15th. I hear the owners really like to support local wineries - maybe give them a bottle or two? :yes:

[otnemarcaS]

It's a bad drive and getting progressively worse. What would make me interested in trips to Sacto for fun and frolic would be frequent regular Capital Corridor service into the night and on weekends. I take BART to the Eastbay to play and if I didn't need a car and a high tolerance for traffic on I-80, I might take a train to Sacto.

Agree with the need for Capitol Corridor late night and late weekend service. I take the Amtrak CC to work daily from Sac to SF but it is terrible not to be able to stay past 8:50pm in SF (when I stay later to have dinner or drinks with friends), which is when the last train leaves. I just wish Amtrak had a late night and/or overnite CC train service. Maybe two more at midnite and 3am. But then again this is Caifornia and not Europe. Sigh.

Speaking of Europe, as I type I am watching on TV this new high speed bullet train in France that's reaching max speeds of 354 MPH. Hot damn. Means I can make my 90 mile Sac to SF work commute in .... 25 mins. :banana: ah, good fantasy. Again, this IS California.

[downtownserg89]

Could it be that you just happen to be acquainted with a "huge portion" of "stoners"??

who knows. i think i might just be speaking of the teenage population. but seriously, i know a lot of people and the majority do it! but then again i am 17.

[Brotha_Lynch]

:rolleyes: Whatever dude, this Angeleno happens to like Sacramento.

And we love you back. lol

But you know it, when the conversation becomes about Sac in LA, it's always a small cow-town that smells like poop. Tell me you've never heard that!

I've heard that way too much. And people who say that are usually Laker fans or people who have never actually
been to Sacramento lol.

[goldcntry]

Hey - we just had a bottle of Mt. Aukum Syrah and 2 of C.G. DiAire Syrah - bring on the un-labeled Zins!

Cruising up to C.G. DiAire, Mt. Aukum, the Dutch winery, plus another on April 14/15th...love the Zins and Italian wines up there! :tup:

BrianSac - where are the Zins? We need a Meat. :D

The last couple of year, my cousin and I have gone through after the harvest and done a second harvest of the left-behinds and made some pretty decent homemade Dego Red. Really fruity, but MAN, what a kick! It was great in sauces... I think I'll try my hand at wine-crafting again this year. One of my favorite local wines up here his the Montevina Sirah.

My maternal grandpa used to have a huge ranch up in the Shenandoah valley. Saddly, back in the 70's, they didn't know about estate planning. When grandpa passed away in '74, my grandma ended up having to sell the ranch to pay off the IRS (bastards):hell:. At one point there were five winery's on the old ranch, chief among them is Shenandoah Vineyards and Sobon Estate. Now the only thing left of my grandpa's up there is the ranch house he built with river rock from the Consumnes River, the workshop that Sobon turned into their tasting room, and the road named for my grandpa: Stiener Road. Cheers! :cheers: