Waterloo Region Development News [Archive] - Page 3

Cambridgite

May 24, 2007, 3:49 PM

City growth starts with arts, creativity
MARTIN DEGROOT
(May 22, 2007)

The City of Kitchener is asking the community for feedback on a new report on the possibility of developing an "arts and culture cluster" somewhere downtown.

The report is the result of a study undertaken by Artscape, a Toronto-based agency that has played a leading role in international discussions on the relationship between creativity, place and economic development.

Part of the purpose is to develop strategies for the implementation of Kitchener's CulturePlan II, which includes a number of recommendations related to creative space needs and opportunities.

The development of a downtown arts and culture cluster, in a broader sense, is also a designate priority for the City's Economic Development Division, along with cluster development in the digital media, education and biotechnology sectors.

The report, which is entitled Downtown Kitchener Arts and Culture Cluster Development and Framework, was presented to Council on May 7 and is now available for downloading from the City of Kitchener website (www.kitchener.ca/pdf/downtown-arts-culture-cluster.pdf).

It begins with a discussion of the "creative economy" in general, citing a growing body of evidence -- showing that fostering creativity "is an essential strategy in building quality of place, maximizing talent, enhancing sustainability and defining competitiveness in the knowledge economy."

Census figures and the results of a simple survey indicate that there is a demand for safe, suitable and affordable space for art-making. But the Artscape study also emphasizes how limited our knowledge is of the sector in general, and recommends an extensive "cluster-based mapping of Kitchener-Waterloo's creative industries."

What we do have is anecdotal evidence of considerable culture-related activity in the area that has been designated "the warehouse district," including a "potentially vibrant node" that has emerged around the Breithaupt and Duke Street intersection.

All too often, however, existing facilities are makeshift, offering only "sub-standard accommodations with limited amenities and poor security."

Recent news that the owners of the Lang Tannery complex are looking for a buyer interested in transforming the site into lofts, restaurants and upscale shops is a reminder of how insecure these places are: The artists, artisans and culture-related enterprises who work in them are often forced to leave on very short notice.

This is how Globe Studios, which gets some very positive attention in the report as "a building-based hub for creative activity," ended up leaving the warehouse district for the Cedar Hill area.

The study also makes note of the remarkable concentration of public institutions in the area anchored by Centre in the Square, and various other formal and informal spaces -- the Artery Gallery, Zero to One Studios, the new Kitchener Market, the bars, the clubs, the bookstores, Encore Records, and "3rd space" facilities like A Matter of Taste and the City Café.

There is some very encouraging evidence of an "emerging connectivity" among these various elements. But a vital arts and culture cluster will not develop on its own.

A key recommendation is private-public, not-for-profit Downtown Development Corporation that can undertake civic improvement initiatives and lead the way toward "creative city" development.

This is critical advice: Nothing will happen without this kind of organizational infrastructure in place.

The main problem with the study is that the focus is too narrow: The limitations of the Downtown Development Area -- a delineation that includes the Lang Tannery site, but not the Music Plus/Beckett School facilities just a block away, much less other inner city success stories further afield such as the City Café, Pandora Press, Joseph Schneider Haus, or the lofts on Mansion Street -- are becoming increasingly apparent.

The other key recommendation is bridging the technology and arts communities, and developing a very broad conception of the creative sector that would include fields such as architecture and design, advertising and related services, digital media, as well as recording, publishing and video production.

Which leads us even further beyond the limitations of the downtown business and warehouse district, to region-wide economic development and planning priorities.

There is boundless potential in creative cluster development, whether as actual physical spaces or in the broader sense.

To that end, an arms-length development agency is critical. But it would be much better positioned as a component an inter-city "smart-growth" strategy, alongside features such as the Light Rapid Transit system, protecting the environment, developing urban design standards, and "re-urbanization" strategies generally.

As it happens, there is an opportunity to take a closer look at two important "creative city" locations in the near future:

The artists at Globe Studios (in the old Bonnie Stuart shoe factory at 141 Whitney Place, off Courtland at the foot of Cedar Street) are holding an Open House on the weekend: Saturday noon to 6 p.m., Sunday noon to 4 p.m.

And there will be an Art and Artifacts Sale at the Duke Street Arts District at Duke and Breithaupt (including Station 2 Studios and Gay Isber's Sugar Factory) on the following Saturday, June 2, 8 a.m. to 6 p.m.

I really agree with this article that a vibrant downtown isn't ONLY about getting more people living there. However, I'm not sure how easily and arts and culture cluster can be PLANNED. I always thought these clusters formed organically, without the direct help of the city. I think we need to look at successful examples such as Toronto's Queen Street West and see how their districts formed and how Kitchener can be more accomodative of these clusters. My understanding is that they usually like to congregate in warehouse districts, but Kitchener's supply of abandoned warehouses are rapidly declining as they're getting snatched up by developers. We have competing interests, so what can ya do? :shrug:

Cambridgite

May 24, 2007, 3:50 PM

:previous: Great news :) Show us your pics! If you're exploring Downtown Galt, try to take a pic of the new city hall under construction.

I have both pics! But how do I post them here? (I'm technologically imcompetent)

WaterlooInvestor

May 25, 2007, 10:03 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 25, 2007, 12:18 PM

koops65

May 25, 2007, 1:15 PM

According to a TSN article there is an 80 km exclusion zone around Toronto that prospective NHL teams CANNOT locate in. This would eliminate Hamilton, but KW is just outside it. As for Waterloo Region having the population to support a team, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but there are literally millions of people living within a one hour drive. Not even counting Toronto, by my rough guestimate there are between 2.5 to 3 million. (Hamilton, Mississauga, KW, London, Brantford, etc...)
And Mr. Balsillie must have the finances to build an arena, or at least be able to put together a proposal for one. I'm sure he could build one with his spare pocket change if he felt like it, but of course rich people like him dont just spend money on expensive things like NHL teams or arenas because they feel like it, they do it to make even more money...

rapid_business

May 25, 2007, 2:14 PM

Selfishly, I really hope they do move to KW. No where would they locate said arena if built in KW? IS there land in the downtown or uptown area that would be suitable? would be see the disaster that Ottawa has to deal with all over again?

BlackRedGold

May 25, 2007, 2:23 PM

IS there land in the downtown or uptown area that would be suitable? would be see the disaster that Ottawa has to deal with all over again?

I don't think a downtown or uptown arena would make sense for a K-W team. Those areas aren't big enough to support 18,000 people showing up to a game. And since it would be a regional team, most of the fans would be driving.

SBP in Ottawa isn't the disaster many make it out to be. Unless they put the rink between Waterloo and St Jacobs, there isn't a comparable location in K-W.

markbarbera

May 25, 2007, 2:25 PM

According to a TSN article there is an 80 km exclusion zone around Toronto that prospective NHL teams CANNOT locate in. This would eliminate Hamilton, but KW is just outside it.

The exclusion zones do not eliminate Hamilton from consideration. A Hamilton franchise would need to get exemption from the Toronto and Buffalo franchises. This is as simple as negotiating and paying a buyout fee from these franchises.

KW might. Don't rule us out just because we don't have an arena. We are a city of growth and an arena can always be built. Our advantage over Hamilton is that we are much furthur from Buffalo.

I disagree on this point. The only disadvantage is that a Hamilton team would have to 'buy' exemption from the exclusion zone that Buffalo's franchise (and Toronto's) can claim on Copps Coliseum. However, as mentioned previously, Mr. Baslillie has very deep pockets.

Hamilton's proximity to Toronto/Buffalo would allow for those teams' fans to catch the Leafs/Sabres away games in Hamilton. This would be especially attractive to the Leafs fans perpetually shut out of the ACC by season ticket holders. Not to mention the inevitable rivalries that would emerge.

Hamilton has the advantage of a NHL-class arena readily available on a moment's notice. On the other hand, RIM did buy a chunk of land out Cambridge way back in February. With Baslilie being a businessman, I guess the it'll boil down to a cost-benefit analysis: Which will be cheaper, building an arena in the KWC area or paying off the Toronto and Buffalo franchises and locating in Hamilton...

rapid_business

May 25, 2007, 2:29 PM

With Baslilie being a businessman, I guess the it'll boil down to a cost-benefit analysis: Which will be cheaper, building an arena in the KWC area or paying off the Toronto and Buffalo franchises and locating in Hamilton...

I'm sure the thought process will be a lot more thorough then this alone.

Cambridgite

May 25, 2007, 4:18 PM

http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=TigerLofts.jpg

http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture087.jpg

Hopefully you guys can see these. The top one is the Tiger Lofts under construction and the bottom one is the Cambridge City Hall under construction.

http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture074.jpg
:previous: Here's what the Tiger Lofts currently look like out front. This building used to be the home of Tiger Brand Knitting Co.

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 8:47 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 8:48 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 12:23 PM

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 12:49 PM

waterloowarrior

May 27, 2007, 1:24 PM

^ yeah, many people could walk, bike or take the LRT to the game, reducing the number of cars on the road.. plus imagine having 16-18 thousand people downtown on a regular basis :)

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 2:02 PM

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 2:03 PM

Waterlooson

May 27, 2007, 4:06 PM

2) His company, Research in Motion, is in Waterloo Region and has 4,400 local employees. Can you say "wealthy fan base" or "employee perk"? Those employees donated $2-million in order to give RIM Park it's name. RIM could easily buy the naming rights to "RIM Centre".

Maybe RIM and Tim Hortons could have a partnership (to split the costs) and call the new arena, "Roll Up the RIM Centre". It would have biggest Tim Hortons in the world frequented by Crackberry-headed customers. :jester:

Cambridgite

May 27, 2007, 4:10 PM

Galt factory gets makeover
Tiger Lofts to offer 54 apartments in old textile plant
KEVIN SWAYZE
CAMBRIDGE (May 26, 2007)

http://www.therecord.com/images/kwr/kwr1052745_1.jpg
Lancer Group officials Steven Lindy (left) and Tom Hall discuss project details in the former Tiger Brand factory at 35 Water St. S., Cambridge.

As Lancer Group works to convert a former textile factory into 54 affordable loft apartments in old Galt, the Toronto developer is shopping for more sites to redevelop.

"We are looking across Waterloo Region," said Steve Lindy, vice-president.

"We are looking for sites for seniors homes, for rental (apartments) and condominiums . . . Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge are good places to be building."

Lancer has a proposal before the Region of Waterloo for a subsidized apartment project aimed at those 50 or older, on King Street near Grand River Hospital. He wouldn't be more specific, but said it's an "underutilized site."

This week, Lancer and city officials gathered at the Tiger Lofts project on Water Street South where Melloul Blamey Construction is gutting a four-storey former Tiger Brand factory before 51 one-bedroom and three bachelor apartments are created. At street level, there will be retail space, parking and gardens.

Minor soil contamination was found. Also, extra work is needed to replace the floor over a former water raceway. Those surprises boosted the project cost to $7 million from $6 million, Lindy said.

The project is getting $2.1 million in provincial and federal affordable housing grants.

Tour visitors on upper floors saw downtown vistas that will come with the $585-a-month units. Looking east, Lancer officials could see their $12-million Wellington Square apartment project completed last summer.

Tiger Lofts should be ready for occupancy by early 2008, Lindy said.

The project is one of several in the works in downtown Cambridge.

Developers of a $120-million residential condominium and commercial development on a coal-tar contaminated site hope to start work on a Water Street North site in a month.

Waterscape is a project of Haastown Holdings, based in Richmond Hill. President Paul de Haas said local government approvals are falling into place and buyer response is strong.

"We're now at about 50 per cent pre-sold in the first phase," de Haas said.

Construction starts when 70 per cent of units are sold, he said. The first building has 115 units. Two towers are proposed in the first phase.

De Haas expects the city to exempt his project from height rules. He also expects the region to approve property tax concessions.

Environmental concerns, meanwhile, have delayed a seven-storey, 66-unit apartment building at the former Cambridge Reporter property.

Heartwood Place awaits provincial approval for a cleanup plan for the longtime industrial site. That's expected by end of summer, said Mary Bales, chair of the non-profit Heartwood board.

So far, $1 million has been raised toward the $10.5-million project to create affordable downtown housing. Heartwood is also talking with Waterloo Region to access federal and provincial housing grant money, Bales said.

Conversion of a former textile factory on Spruce Street into upscale condominiums is well underway. Renovation started a year ago to create one- and two-bedroom condominiums selling for $228,000 to $349,000.

Awesome! The fact that he said there are more projects in the making means we'll continue to have more to talk about on this thread. Cheers to Waterloo Region's condo boom! :cheers:

Plus, I thought the two towers were all that was planned for Waterscape. I'm excited to see what the second phase will entail.

Waterlooson

May 27, 2007, 4:21 PM

Galt factory gets makeover
Tiger Lofts to offer 54 apartments in old textile plant
KEVIN SWAYZE
CAMBRIDGE (May 26, 2007)

Conversion of a former textile factory on Spruce Street into upscale condominiums is well underway. Renovation started a year ago to create one- and two-bedroom condominiums selling for $228,000 to $349,000.

What the hell? I don't recall any "textile factory" on Spruce Street in Waterloo, or are they referring to a Spruce St. in Cambridge?

rapid_business

May 27, 2007, 4:26 PM

/\ it would appear that is what the article is talking about.

Waterlooson

May 27, 2007, 4:29 PM

/\ it would appear that is what the article is talking about.

You must be right, but they are also building condo units (mid-rise) on or very close to Spruce St. in Waterloo..... this is a condo boom for the region.

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 4:30 PM

Cambridgite

May 27, 2007, 4:30 PM

Most likely the arena would be put by the 401 :(

However if we were to dream, where do people think a more urban arena could go? For out of town fans, the site would need decent access from the expressway and parking.

My idea: Sunlife Parking lot on King Street.
1) A large parking garage could be built. During the day the garage could be used for Sunlife employees. During the evening/weekends, the garage would be used for the arena.
2) It's not right at the highway, but it's not too far from the Wellington Street exit

Locally:
3) The arena can be a catalyst for building a midtown, and fully linking Downtown Kitchener with Uptown Waterloo.
4) The arena will be on the LRT line.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/SunlifeParkingLot.jpg

Yeah, even though I live close enough to RIM's recently purchased land to walk there and it would be a real treat for "Lamebridge", I still hope they choose a better, more urban location for the arena. Access to the 401 would most likely be the reason that RIM would consider Can-Amera Parkway, but it's going to be a completely car-dependent arena in terms of access (they don't even have real bus service there yet, just 'bus plus'). "Mid-town" might work, but it means that the LRT would need to be in place before the arena and that Clarica would have to be willing to give up their parking lot. My preferred location would be the current site of the Kitchener Auditorium. The Aud is kind of outdated as it really serves the capacity of KW when it was a lot smaller. When I took my brother there 2 years ago for a SUM 41 concert, it was totally packed. What happens when the new arena is built? The Aud will become obsolete. I'd like it if they demolished the Aud and built the new arena there. It will have access to the Ottawa station of the LRT and the Ottawa Street exit on the expressway.

Another thing...
When I went to the last rapid transit public meeting, a lot of people were discussing 'park and ride' facilities along King and the 401. There was also talk about GO transit hooking up with the LRT in downtown Kitchener and downtown Galt. The park and ride facility would service all out-of-towners coming to see the hockey game and GO-transit would benefit us, especially when playing the Leafs, as people would have access to the LRT via the current Georgetown and Milton lines. However, since we're a ways away from getting all of that done, my feeling is that Basillie is looking for 401 access. :(

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 4:31 PM

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 4:36 PM

Waterlooson

May 27, 2007, 4:40 PM

Thanks for the photos WaterlooInvestor, but what's happening at UW with the Quantum-Nano building that was supposed to get built? Is there a hole in the ground yet? It was to be built between the biology building and the math building.

Waterlooson

May 27, 2007, 4:42 PM

:previous: I really like how the "eye" turned out :)

I have some more pictures of Bauer, Andy's, WLU Co-op. I'll post them later, since I'm off to Waterloo's 150th now :cheers:

What do you mean, "how the eye turned out"? I remember that building from many years ago, so what changed?

Don't have too much fun at the parade.

Cambridgite

May 27, 2007, 5:37 PM

Looks like the Kanmet site in Preston (town in Cambridge) is not being taken too kindly by the NIMBYs. Funny enough, when I was taking pictures of that area of town, a man approached me and complained to me about that project and the evils of all developers. For one, his assumption is that everyone drives everywhere (pretty accurate in Cambridge), even though it's walking distance from a mixed-use main street and will have future access to the LRT. After further discussing the matter with him, it turns out he's mostly afraid of density. Because it's not single family homes, it's "going to become a ghetto". "I don't want 'those people' moving into my area." I suspect racism or classism may have something to do with it as well. He justified this through his experience of living in public housing, even though these would be market rate townhouses. "If these houses had more green space and room for parking, I wouldn't have a problem with it" is what he told me. This is the kind of shit Cambridge has to deal with all the time. Too many people are in the outdated, small-town mindset. Waterscape hasn't got a warm welcome by all either because it's "out-of-place", even though it's distanced from any historical buildings. People are idiots! :hell: :hell: :hell:

Anyways, here's the article:
http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/cam/news/news_797032.html

Traffic main concern for Kanmet site development
Ray Martin, Cambridge
(May 24, 2007)
Plans for a new subdivision on the former Kanmet foundry site in Preston got a rough reception at city hall.

Area residents want to see the former foundry site cleaned up, but those attending Tuesday's general committee meeting didn't like plans by Reid's Heritage Homes to build 82 townhomes and two four-storey apartments with a total of 118 units.

Reid's representative Brian Blackmere told council that Waterloo Region will not allow the developer to use an existing road onto Eagle Street because it would be dangerous. As a result, the main access is Margaret Street with an emergency access road onto Dover Street. Blackmere said traffic on Margaret Street would result in one extra vehicle per minute during peak periods.

That did not sit well with some residents attending the meeting. A number of Margaret Street homeowners questioned added traffic on their street.

Resident Diane Hendricks asked how Blackmere came up with his numbers of one more car per minute. She said with 200 units being built, approximately 300 more vehicles would be using Margaret Street each day. She said Westminster Drive or Eagle Street would be better suited for access to the development.

Hendricks also questioned the impact of new development on existing sewer and water services - which already have low pressure.

Margaret Street resident Rachel Fikes was not only concerned about added traffic on the narrow street, but also questioned proposed density levels. Margaret Street has a large number of turn-of-the-century homes on oversized lots, while the development would be made up of townhomes and apartment buildings.

Blackmere said Reid's proposed higher density housing to help recover the cost of removing contaminated soil and chemicals found on the site. He noted that new homes are screened by trees in some areas and the entire development sits in a depression below the level of existing homes. Blackmere said the alternative would be building 40 single-family homes - not financially feasible for his company.

Several residents said Waterloo Region should allow access from Eagle Street, even if it meant widening the street and adding traffic signals.

Others were concerned that an earth berm along the eastern edge of the project - to cut down noise from the existing railway line - would have contaminated soil. They also questioned the idea of a pathway along the top of the berm and the safety of children using it.

City staff will now consider the comments made at the meeting and from outside agencies before bringing a recommendation back to council.

BlackRedGold

May 27, 2007, 6:01 PM

Most likely the arena would be put by the 401 :(

However if we were to dream, where do people think a more urban arena could go? For out of town fans, the site would need decent access from the expressway and parking.

I don't think Kitchener or Waterloo have the road infrastructure in place to have an urban NHL arena. The roads just couldn't handle the 18000 people that show up for a game. When the Senators were playing at the Ottawa Civic Centre, which is right off a four lane main street, traffic was horrific. It would take an 45 minutes to drive a couple of kilometres. And the building only held 10,500.

If you want an urban arena you need an urban area that consists of more then just a main street.

Cambridgite

May 27, 2007, 6:41 PM

I don't think Kitchener or Waterloo have the road infrastructure in place to have an urban NHL arena. The roads just couldn't handle the 18000 people that show up for a game. When the Senators were playing at the Ottawa Civic Centre, which is right off a four lane main street, traffic was horrific. It would take an 45 minutes to drive a couple of kilometres. And the building only held 10,500.

If you want an urban arena you need an urban area that consists of more then just a main street.

Unfortunately you're right. Kitchener and Waterloo have small downtowns that would be overwhelmed by that kind of traffic. No matter how much we intensify, the inner-city will always have a small footprint. The arena may have to go suburban. Until the LRT is built, there is no way in hell King street will be able to handle the inevitable amount of traffic it would get.

Cambridgite

May 27, 2007, 6:52 PM

Here's what the Spruce street lofts look like now.
http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture106.jpg

Here's a new grocer opening up this spring in downtown Kitchener on the ground level of Eaton Lofts. The Olive and Bean....sounds yuppyish.
http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture197.jpg

Here's affordable housing being built in downtown Preston in Cambridge. It will be near an LRT station in the future.
http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture039.jpg

Anyone know what's going on with these lots? They are on the south side of Willis Way in Uptown Waterloo, across from the new stores of the Waterloo Town Square. It looks as if it will be the same thing as the mixed-use developments fronting King Street but I'm not sure. Can someone confirm it?
http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb210/Cambridgite/?action=view&current=Picture060.jpg

WaterlooInvestor

May 27, 2007, 10:27 PM

Waterlooson

May 28, 2007, 12:01 AM

^^^ Thanks for the reply.

WaterlooInvestor

May 28, 2007, 2:36 AM

waterloowarrior

May 28, 2007, 3:26 AM

it will be right here

http://www.bulletin.uwaterloo.ca/images/2007/0401tardis.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/otto85b/2006-04apr-04-nanoquant-west.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/otto85b/0406iqcnano.gif

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/otto85b/2006-04apr-04-nanoquant-northwest.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/otto85b/2006-04apr-04-nanoquant-overhead.jpg

WaterlooInvestor

May 28, 2007, 4:03 AM

Waterlooson

May 28, 2007, 4:23 AM

:previous: Thanks. I did walk around the entire Math building, and didn't see any other construction. So at this point, construction has yet to start.

Thanks again. That last pic really shows exactly where the building will be located (thanks WaterlooWarrior).... I'm glad that they won't be building further back... this way, they will maintain the nice green area in the middle.

BTW, that's going to be a huge building.

WaterlooInvestor

May 28, 2007, 7:48 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 28, 2007, 8:20 AM

Cambridgite

May 28, 2007, 4:39 PM

Victoria Street: Lang Tanning, Peer Group, UW School of Pharmacy (a Victoria Street wing is being built as Phase 2)
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/LangTanningPeerGroupUWSchoolofPharm.jpg

Lang Tanning
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/LangTanning.jpg

A little group listening to music at The Still
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/TheStill.jpg

Bauer Lofts - 1
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/BauerLofts-1.jpg

Bauer Lofts - 2
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/BauerLofts-2.jpg

Bauer Lofts w/ Sunlife (Waterloo Region's Tallest)
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/BauerLoftsSunlife.jpg

WLU Co-op - 1
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/WLUCo-op-1.jpg

WLU Co-op - 2
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/WLUCo-op-2.jpg

Ugly Regina Street Twins
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/UglyReginaStreetTwins.jpg

Andy's Apartments - 1
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/AndysApartments-1.jpg

Andy's Apartments - 2
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/AndysApartments-2.jpg

Btw: Which sites should I also post in the Ontario section? Should the Bauer Lofts/ Uptown Waterloo have it's own photo update thread?

I don't think the Bauer Lofts need a photo update thread. We have much higher profile developments coming up in the future. Barrelyards would certainly be worthy of its own thread. Or even Centre Block. If we were to create a photo update thread for every downtown/uptown development, it would get quite overwhelming.

Cambridgite

May 28, 2007, 4:53 PM

I agree the road infrastructure is a bit weak, but I still feel it can be overcome. A few points:
- Right now Downtown Kitchener has 12,500 workers. It's not at 18,000 but it's something. There aren't really traffic jams, so there is some spare capacity.
- Does anybody have the number for Uptown Waterloo workers? The Sunlife site alone employes ~3,000. What would be a good guess until someone can get the exact number? 7,000? There's some capacity in Uptown as well. Once again, not many traffic jams, so the number of people can be increased.
-Events Downtown Kitchener with attendance: Cruise Night (18,000), Christkindl Market (35,000), Multicultural Festival (60,000), Blue Brews & BBQ's (45,000). The Cruise Night is a single day event (like a hockey game). The other festivals are spread over a few days, but their attendance is higher, and I'm sure it would approach 18,000 on the "busy main Saturday".
- Once again, Uptown Festival Numbers? There's going to be some capacity up there as well: Buskers, Jazz.
- The LRT will go right by the Sunlife Parking lot (huge plus for local residents, especially since a lot more development is going up along King Street)

I'm looking at both Downtown and Uptown, since the LRT will connect both very easily to the Sunlife Parking lot. Also Uptown borders this site. Downtown is only a 20 minute walk. (historically a long walk for KW residents, but we're growing into a bigger city, and walking/transit is just something that needs to happen)

It's not perfect, but here's the car access to this site:
- King Street: can take you North to Waterloo, or South to Kitchener
- Park Street: North to Waterloo, South to Kitchener
- Union Blvd: West to Westmount (a major road that can take you to the rest of the city), East to Weber Street (also a major road that can take you to the rest of the city)

What I'd like to improve:
- Park Street : When it gets to William Street, I'd like to see an extension built so it merges seemlessly into Caroline.
- Union Blvd : straighten out the east end, and add in it's own connection to the expressway
(these types of improvements have been recently made where weber street and old king used to meet: the improvements can be done)

Something to remember: The Region of Waterloo has relatively low debt, and has a Aaa credit rating. It has the money to upgrade road infrastructure.

Parking: Build a 3,000 space garage in the area. It can be used by Sunlife employees during the day (to make up for their lost space) and Hockey fans during the evening.

Another Point: Belmont Village is located only 300 metres West of this site. It can provide another area for restaurants/shops (things to do before the game), parking (build one garage there- it would also help out the village), road connections (some people could just park on Belmont, which would provide another road to exit the area: north to Waterloo, south to Kitchener) It would also fit in great with my midtown goal.

I know I go on about midtown a lot, but that's because when I'm:
-Uptown: elevated a bit I can see Downtown Kitchener
-Downtown: I can see Uptown Waterloo (Sunlife Tower)
I'd really like to see it one continuous area. It already is to a degree (midtown has a: hospital, grocery store, high school, some residential, some office - CTV & health care) but not nearly to it's potential.

As is, things might be tight, but as I posted above: we already handle thousands of people daily. Hockey games are usually in the evenings, so as long as the workers and the fans don't collide at the same time, we should be able to manage.

LRT: The team is going to be in Nashville one more season for sure. It would take at least 2 years to build an arena. So we have 3 years to get LRT up and going. Maybe we'll be stuck without LRT for one season, at which point let's put on a lot of extra temporary buses. But the best option would be to get LRT under construction ASAP!

LAST COMMENT: As I've said previously, the arena would probably go by the 401. This is my urban proposal though.

In terms of the number of people working downtown, 12,500 is nothing spectacular at all. Halifax (a smaller CMA) has 20,000 people working downtown and Hamilton (known for a blighted, unloved core) has 30,000 people working downtown.
http://www.downtownhalifax.ns.ca/default.asp?mn=1.8.37
http://www.downtownhamilton.org/ChairmansMessage.asp

Employment is very decentralized in this Region, because it's mostly post-war suburban and is very auto-centric. Decades of economic decline downtown meant there was no reason for any business to locate there. These days, companies will only go downtown if the environment is favourable for their workers. As a result, our employment is very suburbanized. However, with people moving back to the city and the retail scene improving steadily, that will likely change. Just think about the number of housing units that are either under construction or proposed right now. We will not even see the results of that on street level until construction is complete and the buildings are occupied. With very low office vacancies and an upcoming LRT, it's very probable that we could get some new office buildings downtown. Depending how many people actually choose to ride the LRT (which is our only saviour against congestion at this point), congestion may or may not get a lot worse on King Street. This will become a factor in where Basillie wants to locate the arena (assuming we're getting one).

Cambridgite

May 28, 2007, 5:21 PM

To answer your question, there are approximately 8,000 people working in Uptown Waterloo. It doesn't look like that includes the new WTS developments or the new office building behind Seagram's though.

http://www.city.waterloo.on.ca/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/DS_COMMUNITYPOLICY_documents/PS_DP_071006.pdf

Look at page 4 and you will see it.

Cambridgite

May 29, 2007, 5:35 AM

I just did some calculations on the number of housing units being built in Waterloo Region's core areas right now and the numbers are impressive. The following are ONLY residential units that are either under construction or proposed or rumoured. Recently completed do not count. I will also include population increases, assuming 1.5 persons per new unit (although that may be inaccurate).

Kitchener

Kaufman Lofts (270 units)
Arrow Lofts (300 units)
Centre Block (400 units)
The Intowns (128 units)

A total of 1098 new housing units. 970 within "downtown's" boundaries. The intowns are townhouses in a nearby, inner city neighborhood. This could add about 1455 new residents to downtown Kitchener, a 79% growth from last year's population of 1842, up to 3297. The effects should be profound on street level. Also include developments in which I don't know the actual numbers.

Lang Tannery (est. 400 units?)
Icon Condominiums (est. 200 units?)
Random Apartment building on Queen St. South (est. 100 units?)

I would ESTIMATE these to total up to 700 units or 1050 new residents. Icon and Lang Tannery are considered downtown, so that'd be an additional 600 units to the downtown and 900 people. Adding it all together with my previous figures, downtown's population would increase by 128%, up to 4197.

Keep in mind, the figures for Lang Tannery and Icon Condominiums and the apt building are just my personal estimates based how the development looks like it may take place.

Next up, Uptown waterloo:

Bauer Lofts (128 units)
Barrelyards (770 units)
Uptown shops and residences (8 units)

A total of 906 new residential units, or potentially 1359 new residents. I never found any figures for the population of the immediate uptown area, but including the surrounding, pre-WW2 housing stock (plus what's been redeveloped), it's currently 9000. These new developments would potentially boost the population of that area up by 15%, to 10,359.

Downtown Galt:

Waterscape Condominiums (225 units)
Tiger Lofts (54 units)
Heartwood Place (66 units)

A total of 345 units. Potentially 518 new residents. Would boost immediate downtown area from its current population of 2149, up to 2667, a 24% increase.

Downtown Preston:

Kanmet Site (200 units, assuming the NIMBYs don't kill it)
Victoria Place affordable apartments (est. 70 units?)

A potential total of 270 units or possibly 405 new residents within downtown Preston. The Kanmet site is not considered within the BIA of downtown Preston, but it's a 2 minute walk from King Street. If it was, it would increase the downtown population from 1760 to 2165, a 23% increase.

Altogether, it looks like we'll be getting an estimated 3309 new housing units being built through this boom period and a population increase of 4964 people living in our core areas. I'm sure I'm a little off, but this puts a perspective on the number of developments and proposed developments we are working with now. And to think, Haastown has announced that more projects are in the making! :banana:

WaterlooInvestor

May 29, 2007, 10:53 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 29, 2007, 11:14 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 29, 2007, 11:15 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 29, 2007, 11:17 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 29, 2007, 11:32 AM

moved

Cambridgite

May 29, 2007, 3:03 PM

Awesome! :cheers: I didn't think there was any room left in the Northland Industrial Area....guess I was wrong.

Cambridgite

May 29, 2007, 3:17 PM

Here's the link I used to find out the population of Uptown Waterloo and it's surrounding older neighborhoods. It'll take a while to load.
http://www.city.waterloo.on.ca/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/DS_COMMUNITYPOLICY_documents/PS_DP_071006.pdf

By the way, do you have any renderings for RIM's proposed office towers in Mississauga? Or the location?

Waterlooson

May 29, 2007, 3:40 PM

I think RIM must be the largest private employer (at 4,400 employees) in Waterloo Region.... the last time I checked Toyota had 4,300 employees.

WaterlooInvestor

May 30, 2007, 12:47 PM

Cambridgite

May 30, 2007, 2:48 PM

I agree with you on that. Otherwise it's like comparing apples to oranges. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a source that only included Waterloo's immediate uptown area.

In regards to the Region's growth, I think it will actually grow even faster than predicted. Here's why:
http://www.grandriver.ca/WatershedReportCard/2005_Fall_Grand_Pg3.pdf

It says 60% growth between 2001 and 2031, but that assumes that 3/4 of the 3.7 million new immigrants will settle in the inner ring, which will be virtually all intensification. While I'd like to see the GTA-Hamilton intensify, I have my doubts about whether or not it will achieve such massive targets. Add to that, the Region's economy is larger and more diversified (as you mentioned, mainly because of high tech) than most other communities in the outer ring and it also gets a lot of growth through immigration, which will be the primary means of growth through this time period. My prediction is somewhere between the forcasted 729,000 people and 1 million people by 2031. Spill-over growth over the greenbelt will surely also mean more growth in jobs that aren't even related to the universities in the first place, meaning further diversification in the local economy. That's my hypothesis anyways.

Waterlooson

May 30, 2007, 9:47 PM

I've been talking about relative population growth, and it's stuff like this that will keep Waterloo Region in the upper growth ranks. In the last 50 years we've gone from the 15th largest CMA to the 11th. I bet we can at least hit 9th over the next 50 years, and there's a chance for 7th place if our growth accelerated even further (thanks to the accelerator centre, quantum/nano, etc.. ) :cheers:

Comparing London's CMA with that of Kitchener's is like comparing a whole bunch of bananas with just a few bananas. :banana: ;)

Waterloo Region is the 10 th largest "region" in the country by population.

London CMA: 457,720 in 2,665.28 sq. km.
Kitchener CMA: 451,235 in 827.07 sq. km.

So the Kitchener CMA has virtually the same population as London (CMA) in less than 1/3 rd the area.

Region of Waterloo: 478,121 in 1,368.64 sq. km.

So the Region of Waterloo has a larger population than London (CMA) in about 1/2 the area. If we were to compare the population in equal areas, Waterloo would have about twice the population of the London area.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=555__&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=london&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=541__&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=Kitchener&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CD&Code1=3530&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=waterloo&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

Cambridgite

May 30, 2007, 11:23 PM

Uhh, what's the point of this London bashing? :shrug:
Also, if we're talking about "regions" as you say, York, Peel, and even Durham Regions are all more populated than Waterloo Region anyways.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CD&Code1=3521&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=Peel&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=35&B1=All&Custom=

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CD&Code1=3519&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=York&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=35&B1=All&Custom=

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CD&Code1=3518&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=Durham&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=35&B1=All&Custom=

Comparing London's CMA with that of Kitchener's is like comparing a whole bunch of bananas with just a few bananas. :banana: ;)

Waterloo Region is the 10 th largest "region" in the country by population.

London CMA: 457,720 in 2,665.28 sq. km.
Kitchener CMA: 451,235 in 827.07 sq. km.

So the Kitchener CMA has virtually the same population as London (CMA) in less than 1/3 rd the area.

Region of Waterloo: 478,121 in 1,368.64 sq. km.

So the Region of Waterloo has a larger population than London (CMA) in about 1/2 the area. If we were to compare the population in equal areas, Waterloo would have about twice the population of the London area.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=555__&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=london&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=541__&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=Kitchener&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/community/Details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CD&Code1=3530&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=waterloo&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

rapid_business

May 30, 2007, 11:47 PM

Cambridgite

May 31, 2007, 12:30 AM

man I seriously think KW has an inferiority complex everytime I come here to read this thread. Always having to compare itself to the neighbours to the west....

(Not that the Edm. vs. Cal. thing is any better... but I'm just saying...)

It's mostly just a certain couple of people on this thread ;) . For most people, we hardly even think about London. I think it's basically just on this forum that London and KW do the "whose is bigger" contest, so to speak :haha: .

I wouldn't exactly write off the inferiority complex though. Being the least known about city (relative to our size), and getting a rep for having nothing to do and a crappy downtown, I'm not surprised people do have an inferiority complex about this city/conurbation. On one hand, there's a lot of pride on the economic side of things, but in terms of having a vibrant urban buzz, people just give up and go to Toronto to get their fix. Many visitors also inflict very negative attitudes about this region, which just reinforces this inferiority complex. As I mentioned in my pros and cons, there is a lack of community pride here.

Waterlooson

May 31, 2007, 12:33 AM

Uhh, what's the point of this London bashing? :shrug:

I don't see how putting the facts in proper perspective is bashing any place. I certainly didn't "bash" London - so your statement was way off base and out of line. And yes, we already know that the Toronto area is the largest (population wise) in Ontario. I don't recall saying otherwise. :rolleyes:

Waterlooson

May 31, 2007, 12:40 AM

man I seriously think KW has an inferiority complex everytime I come here to read this thread. Always having to compare itself to the neighbours to the west....

(Not that the Edm. vs. Cal. thing is any better... but I'm just saying...)

For a region of its size in Canada, Waterloo Region has to be the most poorly understood on this forum. In fact, a poll was recently done on this forum where the members admitted this. Ergo, people more familiar than most with the K-W area have a duty to clarify some facts to the others here.... and doing so certainly doesn't constitute an "inferiority complex".

inferiority complex:

A persistent sense of inadequacy or a tendency to self-diminishment, sometimes resulting in excessive aggressiveness through overcompensation.

Waterlooson

May 31, 2007, 1:03 AM

man I seriously think KW has an inferiority complex everytime I come here to read this thread. Always having to compare itself to the neighbours to the west....

Just to set you straight regarding your slight on KW, "KW" hasn't compared itself with anyone.... I don't even live there, I just happen to know more than most here about that part of the coutry.

Cambridgite

May 31, 2007, 4:08 AM

I don't see how putting the facts in proper perspective is bashing any place. I certainly didn't "bash" London - so your statement was way off base and out of line. And yes, we already know that the Toronto area is the largest (population wise) in Ontario. I don't recall saying otherwise. :rolleyes:

In your previous post about "regions", you said Waterloo Region was the 10th largest region in Canada. In doing so, you're not referring to metropolitan areas, but political regions. As far as these political regions are concerned, you have to consider regional municipalities that are within the suburbs of our largest cities. In such a case, Waterloo Region isn't the 10th largest. That's what I was getting at.
All of Waterloo Region should be in the CMA, but that's another matter, one which was discussed a while ago.

WaterlooInvestor

May 31, 2007, 10:47 AM

WaterlooInvestor

May 31, 2007, 10:54 AM

eemy

May 31, 2007, 11:30 AM

So the Region of Waterloo has a larger population than London (CMA) in about 1/2 the area. If we were to compare the population in equal areas, Waterloo would have about twice the population of the London area.

While I won't argue with the premise that Waterloo is or will be larger than London, that has to be one of the stupidist things I've ever read.

The obsession with London on this thread is rather embarrassing.

WaterlooInvestor

May 31, 2007, 11:53 AM

GreatTallNorth2

May 31, 2007, 3:13 PM

I'm a 6th generation Waterloo resident and I'm very proud of my city. Whenever I see somebody make stupid remarks such as "KW's a suburb of Toronto", or "there's nothing to do in KW" I'm going to correct them.

Clearly, people from outside of the Waterloo Region do not understand the fact that Toronto is actually a suburb of Waterloo.

Keep up your passion for Waterloo Mr. WaterlooInvestor. One day Statscan will wake up and make Kitchener/Waterloo the Number 1 CMA in Canada. Until then, do not be discouraged by the fact that you are Canada's Number 11 CMA behind London. :banana:

Waterlooson

May 31, 2007, 3:49 PM

While I won't argue with the premise that Waterloo is or will be larger than London, that has to be one of the stupidist things I've ever read.

The obsession with London on this thread is rather embarrassing.

What's stupid is your foolish claim that I have an obsession "with London"; and the rest of your post was simply inane. You have taken issue with a point I made that you agree with.

I guess only you can mention any other city (and the population) on this thread:

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak
"You can check the Ministry of Finance's population predictions, which, by 2031, predict a population of over 700000 for Waterloo Region and (I believe) over 300000 for Guelph. That said, Waterloo Region only predicts a population in the neighbourhood of 650000 in the same time period, though it is legally mandated to plan according to the MOF's predictions. (all these numbers are rough estimates from memory.) Quebec's population has already surpassed 700000, and Winnipeg's is pretty close, so, while I wouldn't be surprised to see K-W surpass them in the future, it'll likely be awhile still."

"Is there an article about this CBC move? The CBC already has repeaters across Ontario, including London, so this would have nothing to do with reception. Presumeably the CBC will be opening a bureau in London that would actually produce its own material, most likely the Ontario Morning show (currently produced in Toronto, but only aired outside of Toronto, Ottawa and Northern Ontario), and possibly an afternoon show to replace the one that is currently broadcast out of Toronto and mostly talks about the traffic on the DVP. I would expect that it would be branded more as a Southwestern Ontario station than a London one. I also imagine it would be similar in size to the stations in Thunder Bay and Sudbury."

It looks like you have referred to "London" (and a bunch of other cities) as much as (or more than) anyone else on this thread. :haha:

koops65

May 31, 2007, 4:32 PM

Cambridgite

May 31, 2007, 6:52 PM

Clearly, people from outside of the Waterloo Region do not understand the fact that Toronto is actually a suburb of Waterloo.

What are you trying to imply?

Keep up your passion for Waterloo Mr. WaterlooInvestor. One day Statscan will wake up and make Kitchener/Waterloo the Number 1 CMA in Canada. Until then, do not be discouraged by the fact that you are Canada's Number 11 CMA behind London. :banana:

I see nothing wrong with someone being passionate about their community. Granted, some people do go overboard.

Cambridgite

May 31, 2007, 6:57 PM

Personally, I love the verbal sparring that goes on in some threads, including this one! :cheers: it makes for good entertainment to me, so I think people should not get so heated about those issues, treat it as entertainment and then go back to highrise or other types of development in our favorite cities, and by the way, the updates here are excellent... thanks to all

I agree with you :haha: . Until it gets obsessive:( . This KW vs. London stuff needs to stop, from both sides. Enough of "London, look at this. Eat your heart out" and "KW is Toronto's bedroom" stuff. It's getting really stupid. Both cities have some interesting developments going on and that's really where our focus should be.

markbarbera

May 31, 2007, 7:27 PM

There's a fine line between having civic pride and having a superiority/inferiority complex. I've noticed it quite often gets crossed in these fora.

Waterlooson

May 31, 2007, 7:38 PM

I agree with you :haha: . Until it gets obsessive:( . This KW vs. London stuff needs to stop, from both sides. Enough of "London, look at this. Eat your heart out" and "KW is Toronto's bedroom" stuff. It's getting really stupid. Both cities have some interesting developments going on and that's really where our focus should be.

Just whom are you quoting or are you simply making things up? :yes:

I haven't noticed anyone putting London down on this thread.

Cambridgite

May 31, 2007, 8:17 PM

Waterloo, a most intelligent community.... London eat your heart out!

http://www.therecord.com/breakingnews/breakingnews_4787261.html

Here's a good one!! ;)

Cambridgite

May 31, 2007, 8:42 PM

As for the bedroom community comments thrown by Londoners, I bring back this old thread.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=127751

You'll see that, once these poorly backed-up assumptions are made, they are soon after attacked by a stream of boosterism. Then the city vs. city action takes off. This thread was a good laugh :tup: .

Oh yeah, here's another thread that took an interesting turn on the second page.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=130627&page=2

Waterlooson

May 31, 2007, 9:24 PM

Here's a good one!! ;)

So I didn't quite say what you claimed... you shouldn't use quote signs if you are merely paraphrasing someone... worse than that, you rephrased and exaggerated what I said. That is to say, only the exact wording is to be enclosed by quotes. And like I said, no one was bashing London... a little teasing perhaps, but certainly no bashing.

You criticize others for something that you have done (on this thread), such as:

"In terms of the number of people working downtown, 12,500 is nothing spectacular at all. Halifax (a smaller CMA) has 20,000 people working downtown and Hamilton (known for a blighted, unloved core) has 30,000 people working downtown."

It seems that you have "bashed" (at least by your apparent concept of the word) the downtowns of both Kitchener (vs. Halifax) and Hamilton....

.... and as far as your post above, I wasn't asking about what may have been said on other threads.... only this one, and no one on this thread called K-W a bedroom of Toronto...so why dredge this up from other threads? Doing so just makes you look like the problem.

rapid_business

May 31, 2007, 10:52 PM

Who cares....

can't we just move on? I was just trying to point out the unproductiveness of some of these discussions. The fact that this discussion is continuing just reinforces my original claim.

F@CK!..... let's just grow up and quit bitching about nonsense issues that get us nowhere.

Cambridgite

May 31, 2007, 11:00 PM

So I didn't quite say what you claimed... you shouldn't use quote signs if you are merely paraphrasing someone... worse than that, you rephrased and exaggerated what I said. That is to say, only the exact wording is to be enclosed by quotes. And like I said, no one was bashing London... a little teasing perhaps, but certainly no bashing.

Very well. You got me. I'll be careful from now on not to quote things that should be paraphrased.

You criticize others for something that you have done (on this thread), such as:

"In terms of the number of people working downtown, 12,500 is nothing spectacular at all. Halifax (a smaller CMA) has 20,000 people working downtown and Hamilton (known for a blighted, unloved core) has 30,000 people working downtown."

It seems that you have "bashed" (at least by your apparent concept of the word) the downtowns of both Kitchener (vs. Halifax) and Hamilton.....

You may see that as bashing, but I was simply making a statement. We were talking about King Street's capacity to accomodate NHL fans and WaterlooInvestor stated that King Street already gets lots of use as 12,500 people work in downtown Kitchener. I was under the impression that he was making it seem like a lot of people, so I put it in context of other cities that have much more centralized employment patterns and still have road capacity.

.... and as far as your post above, I wasn't asking about what may have been said on other threads.... only this one, and no one on this thread called K-W a bedroom of Toronto...so why dredge this up from other threads? Doing so just makes you look like the problem.

OK fine. It wasn't brought up in THIS thread, but I was making an example of how silly this Kitchener vs. London bickering is. I figured a lot of the comments made about London on this thread were directed at insults thrown by Londoners on other threads. Sorry if I offended you in any way. I'm just making a point that comments like yours contribute to the Kit vs. Lon beef. Let's just cut the bologne and get on with with Waterloo Region Development News.