Federal Courthouse, Austin Texas

[427MM]

There has been a debate here in Austin in recent days over what should happen to the old Intel shell located on the block directly west of Republic Square. Let’s hear the pros and cons and see if we can learn something new and have fun doing so.

This is the structure in question.
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3600/img0460sv9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

It is set to be razed February 25th to make way for a new Federal Courthouse. They have been on site drilling holes into the columns for the past few days if not longer. The issue really came to a head over the last week due to a series of articles which have run in the Austin American Statesman. If anyone has those articles, or links to, available please share. Remember, keep the gloves on people. We all have one thing in common here and that is a true love for this city. Now let's have some fun.

[JAM]

I'd like to see some mixed use high rise development here. More ground floor retail with condo's/apartments above. This might not be in a Cap Coor View so why not. More density downtown is going to bring the services it wants and needs like light rail and shopping. It sucks having to get in your car to go shopping when your already downtown. Why is a new federal court house needed anyway? Maybe the feds can make a profit, and build a nicer one somewhere else.

[sakyle04]

Someone on another thread suggested that the Federal Courthouse might be a good thing. Their reasoning was that the additional jobs (especially lawyers,etc...) might sell some of the high-priced condos in the area (with an implied overall increase in demand).

I like that gov't development brings permanent jobs and I think that the courthouse will help the area have a permanent buzz of pedestrians around it. I know that the Federal Courthouse in San Antonio is situated along the southern edge of downtown and people park in a lot across the street (which is always full) and walk straight in - there is nothing else to capture their attention.

If the Austin Fed Courthouse is in a neighborhood setting (surrounded by high-rises and retail) those people that drive in and out in SA might have lunch at a bistro or go shopping at the retail district in DT Austin.

[M1EK]

I'll summarize again: when Austin desperately wanted somebody, anybody, to take the shell off Intel's hands, the Feds did us a BIG favor by doing so, even though the cost to them to build there was significantly higher than it would have been on another site (one of many without a building on it back then). Since then, they've spent several years and many millions on designing the building for this site - they could recoup the money in the ideal scenario where a private developer buys it at a profit, but they could not get the time back; and then they'd still be stuck with a use people don't want but that ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DOWNTOWN.

You don't stab people in the back after they did you a big favor.

[JAM]

I like that gov't development brings permanent jobs and I think that the courthouse will help the area have a permanent buzz of pedestrians around it. I know that the Federal Courthouse in San Antonio is situated along the southern edge of downtown and people park in a lot across the street (which is always full) and walk straight in - there is nothing else to capture their attention.

If the Austin Fed Courthouse is in a neighborhood setting (surrounded by high-rises and retail) those people that drive in and out in SA might have lunch at a bistro or go shopping at the retail district in DT Austin.


Good points. I'll have to throw in that downtown Austin already has tons of lawyers working here, and they could easily fill up all of the condos that are becoming available on the market. It's tough being in retail in downtown. Yeah, people may come down here once in a while, but it is not a real destination yet, except to eat and drink at night. Critical mass has to be reached for that to happen, and critical mass has not been reached.

[MichaelB]

First of all..... glad to see the civil tone of this debate!

So.... At this point I think it is too late to change directions. It is the Feds, the risks are too high for many a reason that has been pointed out in other threads.

However, I don't feel that the Feds did Austin a favor. Some of these same debates were happening when that site was chosen. Most folks knew then that area was to become the hotbed. I felt then, as I do now, that the NE quadrant, with it's blocks of still open space..... was a much better choice for the court house. It could have served as a catalyst for growth in a hard to develop area.

[Saddle Man]

Say it's moved to the ne side of downtown. In ten years (let's say that area is the new 'it' place because the Waller tunnel is built and a few view corridors are gone) there will people saying what a bad choice it was to put it there. It would only contribute to making that area of downtown that much harder to revitalize in the future. Government buildings don't usually have shops and whatnot in them. So putting a government building with more government buildings only serves to kill that area. If they are spread out accross downtown and next to mixed-use highrises, they help diversify the neighborhood they are in. As opposed to creating a government building ghetto on one end of downtown.
When it replaces the Intel shell it will contribute to the neighborhood. It will help the neighborhood be 'mixed-use'.

[Saddle Man]

What's happening to the old federal courthouse?

[M1EK]

However, I don't feel that the Feds did Austin a favor.

Well, that's an interesting rewriting of history. When the Feds agreed to take this property, downtown wasn't redeveloping at all - the dot-com collapse had ground everything to a halt; the Plaza Lofts weren't selling; etc.

[MichaelB]

Say it's moved to the ne side of downtown. In ten years (let's say that area is the new 'it' place because the Waller tunnel is built and a few view corridors are gone) there will people saying what a bad choice it was to put it there. It would only contribute to making that area of downtown that much harder to revitalize in the future. Government buildings don't usually have shops and whatnot in them. So putting a government building with more government buildings only serves to kill that area. If they are spread out accross downtown and next to mixed-use highrises, they help diversify the neighborhood they are in. As opposed to creating a government building ghetto on one end of downtown.
When it replaces the Intel shell it will contribute to the neighborhood. It will help the neighborhood be 'mixed-use'.

Your points are all well taken. In the present, I don't disagree at all. Any choice is defined by it's time. My assumption is the NE quadrant will eventually grow, but (as has been discussed on other threads) the presence of three homeless centers in the area..... well, it might have been useful to have a catalyst....Besides, I think it would be great for federal judges to have to exit thier cars and step accross sleeping bags! Nice reality check!

Also, interested it what is to become of the old facility....

[sakyle04]

Say it's moved to the ne side of downtown. In ten years (let's say that area is the new 'it' place because the Waller tunnel is built and a few view corridors are gone) there will people saying what a bad choice it was to put it there. It would only contribute to making that area of downtown that much harder to revitalize in the future. Government buildings don't usually have shops and whatnot in them. So putting a government building with more government buildings only serves to kill that area. If they are spread out accross downtown and next to mixed-use highrises, they help diversify the neighborhood they are in. As opposed to creating a government building ghetto on one end of downtown.
When it replaces the Intel shell it will contribute to the neighborhood. It will help the neighborhood be 'mixed-use'.

I agree with that wholeheardtedly. This should create a healthy daytime pedestrian buzz in what is becoming a largely residential area. And, it keeps NE options open for further redevelopment down the line. I think that, over time, this will be a positive for DT Austin.

[MichaelB]

Well, that's an interesting rewriting of history. When the Feds agreed to take this property, downtown wasn't redeveloping at all - the dot-com collapse had ground everything to a halt; the Plaza Lofts weren't selling; etc.

Sorry, I don't feel I am re-writing history... I am including the bigger picture. The same debates were taking place at that time..... Forgive me that I can not lay hands on articles of support at this time. Many folks saw, at the time, that this was not the best location for the courthouse. It was the best of the choices given. I know that will prompt you to ask "who".... and I can not site references, but perhaps others in here will recall the same debate. Sorry to offend by having a differnent recollections of the situation as a whole.

[MichaelB]

Clarification: I want to make sure I separate fact from opinion. It was simply my opinion that the courthouse... at one point in time, would/could have served us better in another location. I do not think it is wise to consider moving it now.... and I feel I could make a great agrument as to why it will work fine into its location/surrounding,etc.

The location that I and "others" at the time supported was not even a choice for the Feds. The Feds only selected 3 sites.... all on the west side of downtown: Intel, Hoffbrau restaurant site, Whole Foods site. Of those three, The Intel site was By far the best solution, and avoided a battle over local businesses! ( a quick google of Austin biz journal varifed those sites) By the way, the original time line for the feds to be complete was this year!

I will continue to look for other references, but again, only "as I recall", city officials and Mr. Doggett all tried to get a wider consideration of sites than just our already promising west end. Hope that info helps in any discussion.

M

[KevinFromTexas]

This might not be in a Cap Coor View so why not.

Actually, according to the Capitol View Corridor map, half of the block, (eastern side), is within the corridor. The other half isn't. I just wanted to put that out there. It's not like we'd be seeing a 40 or 50-story tower there with or without the courthouse slated for that site. Perhaps not even a 20-story tower. The Intel Corp. office were only supposed to be 10 floors and about 140 feet. The federal courthouse so far has been said to be 135 feet and 7 floors.

[sakyle04]

Who's more annoying? Loft dwellers or jail bait?
John Kelso
Sunday, February 11, 2007

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/02/11/11kelso.html

Who would you rather have as a downtown neighbor? A loft dweller in Gucci shoes carrying a man bag, or a bag man and his attorney?

Great choice, huh? It's like asking, "Would you prefer a scumbag, or, how about a scumbag?"

Still, the hot debate these days has been over what to do with that pile of concrete at Fifth and San Antonio streets known as the Intel shell.

I always thought Intel-henge (my name for it) should be preserved as a historic relic. After all, it really is the Alamo of the high-tech bust, a reminder of what happens when everything turns to poop after it becomes apparent that your company has no discernible product.

But preserving the Intel structure (if you can call something without walls or a ceiling a structure) wasn't one of the choices. Some people say the spot should be sold to private enterprise for more high-dollar condos, while others think it should be used for a federal courthouse.

So the big philosophical question is this: Who would you rather have as a downtown neighbor: a group of self-absorbed egocentric Wi-Fi weirdos on MySpace? Or a bunch of crooks whose space is fixing to be 6 feet by 9 feet with a toilet in the middle?

The old applause-o-meter would have a hard time discerning much of a difference on those two, huh?

See, here's the deal. Mayor Will Wynn wanted to delay the scheduled Feb. 25 implosion of the Intel pile o' concrete because developers offered to buy the property at Fifth and San Antonio streets for $13 million. The thinking here is that there's more money to be made off yet another downtown high-rise with a heated pool and elevated nostrils than there is off a big ugly gray concrete building with a metal detector and frisking.

On the other hand, the federal government has put the kibosh on Wynn's proposal and plans to go ahead with the implosion on schedule. The government says that a delay would cost the $65 million federal courthouse project too much money.

I'm kind of glad the courthouse won over condos. Are you getting the feeling that we have too many high-rise lofts downtown as it is? Has it ever occurred to these builders that some of these buildings might not fill up and we might run out of yuppies? What then? Are they going to turn one of these deals into the world's tallest Wal-Mart?

Let's face it. Condos attract a bad element. You know what drives me nuts? It's when I walk into one of these cappuccino joints downtown and everybody's got an iPod stuck in his ear. And suddenly I'm invisible. I mean, I could drop dead on the floor, and they wouldn't notice I was there unless they tripped over my corpse on their way to the men's room.

The solution? Carry a tiny pair of scissors and clip their little iPod wires. If they gripe, just say, "Hey, loft boy, I thought this dump was supposed to be wireless."

Another reason I favor the courthouse? At least the criminals will be headed up the river, so they won't be taking your table at Eddie V's. But the loft dwellers? We'd be stuck with them. Trust me. They ain't moving to Waco.

[Saddle Man]

I just don't think John Kelso is funny.

[TDoss]

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I think that John Kelso has some feelings of inadequacy/daddy issues or something that he needs to work out if he is that affected by people's individual housing choices.

- seriously, go back and read the article in it's entirety. It's weird.

The assertion that condos attract a bad element is nuts. Anyone who has spent 5 mintues walking around Vancouver or Portland can attest.

[TDoss]

Regarding the Poll - Get rid of the "Nothing, it should remain a shell" option

I think that the Skyscraper poll should be revised to include another choice...

THE CITY SHOULD GROUND LEASE THE PROPERTY TO A DEVELOPER :tup:

I think a ground lease would absolutely be the best decision.

[sakyle04]

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I think that John Kelso has some feelings of inadequacy/daddy issues or something that he needs to work out if he is that affected by people's individual housing choices.

That's funny.

I have to think that decades of being the "angry old man" on every issue has taken it's toll. Really, has there been any new development that he hasn't tried to twist with his folksy, fartsy, find-me-at-the-back-table-of-the-Alligator-Grill style criticism?

[arbeiter]

John Kelso is a retard.

[Mopacs]

http://amfmstudios.com/plume/kelso.jpg

[Saddle Man]

I'd say more dumbass than smartass.

[TexasStar]

How exactly did Intel get away with walking away from the project and leaving such a huge eyesore in the first place?

[JAM]

Who's more annoying? Loft dwellers or jail bait?
John Kelso
Sunday, February 11, 2007

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/02/11/11kelso.html


So the big philosophical question is this: Who would you rather have as a downtown neighbor: a group of self-absorbed egocentric Wi-Fi weirdos on MySpace? Or a bunch of crooks whose space is fixing to be 6 feet by 9 feet with a toilet in the middle?



Did he say 6 x 9 ???:

@ PRISON
@ WORK

you spend the majority of your time in a 10X10 cell
you spend the majority of your time in an 8X8 cubicle


you get three meals a day fully paid for
you get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it


you get time off for good behavior
you get more work for good behavior


the guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you
you must often carry a security card and open all the doors for yourself


you can watch TV and play games
you could get fired for watching TV and playing games


you get your own toilet
you have to share the toilet with some people who pee on the seat


they allow your family and friends to visit
you aren't even supposed to speak to your family


all expenses are paid by the taxpayers with no work required
you get to pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners, and welfare


you spend most of your life inside bars wanting to get out
you spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars


you must deal with sadistic wardens
they are called managers

[bluedogok]

Kelso's commentary has become more "mean spirited" since his wife died a couple of years ago, I remember one of his columns talking about how she always read over his column before submitting it. He is just one of those "old Austin" people that don't want change, they want it to stay the "Austin that they remember" and still be the small city that it once was.

[KevinFromTexas]

^ There's nothing wrong with that kind of thinking so long as it doesn't get in the way of progress. I'm in the camp to where I would hope that everything that makes Austin unique can be kept intact, but have it uniquely mold together with the new. I've lived here since I was born, my dad and his family moved to the United States from Germany in 1956, (Houston first, then to Austin 5 years later). My mom's side of the family has been living here since atleast the early 1920s.

[Gallup]

Lets build a courthouse. There are tons and tons of available lots for those nasty little developers who should be out of the city and in the suburbs like good little developers. Wasting the trees that get in their way and building in areas where there is nothing for miles and miles around. I cant believe any of you would want to build up in the NE part of downtown when this area very well MIGHT be the next boom. We should build it over the Intel shell to help stifle the present boom. Duh. Picture the big empty spaces and the long blank walls. Yummy- its like the seventies all over again man. The gov did us a big favor by buying this and keeping it the way it is long enough to get the pent up demand that the area felt was coming and then saying no to the local gov and people who want to utilize its potential. Anyway its not like the gov could possibly use the next 2+ years it has until it wants to actually do something with this site to look for another suitable site. That would just be silly.

[Gallup]

Pardon the sarcasm but it is time to get real. The land is limited. The areas where this courthouse is suitable outnumber the areas where truly high-rise development is suitable by 5 to 1. I can sympathize with those of you who simply want to see something done and view the Courthouse as our savior in a time of need but they are building in a spot that should be better utilized with a different use. We will get what we get but if we are stuck with a courthouse you will all see how much of a misfit it will be in the area. It surely won’t add to what is going on it is truly a net negative gain for us all.

[texboy]

Well to be honest, I feel that Austin has lost some of its "Austin-ness". The old quirky buildings are being replaced by these huge glass behemoths (albeit in the name of slowing sprawl which I totally agree with)...so its kind of bittersweet in a way. And as for the stuck uppies in highrises, well just go to Dallas to see how not humble the loft dwellers are there.... and you can get some sense of this guys view point....lets just hope the disease doesn't spread south to the capitol.

[MichaelB]

Well to be honest, I feel that Austin has lost some of its "Austin-ness". The old quirky buildings are being replaced by these huge glass behemoths (albeit in the name of slowing sprawl which I totally agree with)...so its kind of bittersweet in a way. And as for the stuck uppies in highrises, well just go to Dallas to see how not humble the loft dwellers are there.... and you can get some sense of this guys view point....lets just hope the disease doesn't spread south to the capitol.

Actually Kevin, I have a project for you: what buildings have gone away for new buildings? I know I can have selective memories, but as I recall, "most of the new building have replaced parking lots, Old car dealers and non-historical warehouses. The tow excetions I can think of is the warhouse where the first AMLI was, and Liberty's lunch. Other than that we have been filling in what was torn down in the 80's!

OK here is what I recall:
Whole foods: car dealership
By George building (name) car dealership
Austin City lofts : car dealership
Monarch: car dealership (one time music store.... one time roving imports store that was at another vancant lot before that
City Hall..... old really bad city hall
Block 21 and new AMLI..... unused warhouses.... not historical....city owned and falling down.
AMLI #1..... OK, that one I miss... cool warehouse
Frost bank. Bus terminal turned bank..... saved Mexicarte.....oh and lost a gay bar in that one, damn.
AltaVida..... parking lot
SHore: warehouse
Hilton?
Four seasons: parking lot

The Whitley property..... big black , ugly eye-sore....

OK Kev, pick it up from there.....

[Mopacs]

OK here is what I recall:
Whole foods: car dealership
Frost bank. Bus terminal turned bank..... saved Mexicarte.....oh and lost a gay bar in that one, damn.


Interesting list! Here are some that I recall...

Whole Foods I believe was McMorris Ford. Frost Bank site also housed the old Oscar Snowden's applicances for many many years!...plus a Greek restaurant as I recall (there was an article about it in the statesman early this decade, just before the building was torn down).

Others:

-100 Congress - Kevin..correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the 100 Congress site once home to Matt's El Rancho?

-Extended Stay America hotel - I believe this was the site of the old Alamo Motel.

-One American Center site used to house a Woolworth five-and-dime.

-UT Tower - replaced "Old Main" building.

I'll think of more as the day goes on...

[KevinFromTexas]

Frost bank. Bus terminal turned bank..... saved Mexicarte.....oh and lost a gay bar in that one, damn.

:haha:

Well, I'm not really a an expert in this area unfortunately. I only know of a few actually.

One Texas Center, 505 Barton Springs Road, 180 foot, 13-story office tower - This was the site of the beloved Armadillo World Headquarters which was one of Austin's most famous and early music halls. This was probably one of the greatest losses, though, it wasn't directly caused by the new development. I'm using Wikipedia as a reference here ;). The building wasn't torn down exclusively for One Texas Center, though and it wasn't exactly a work of art. It was an old National Guard armory building built in 1948. The Armadillo World Headquarters had closed in 1980 because they went bankrupt. The building set vacant for a little while but was demolished sometime around 1981 I believe. One Texas Center broke ground around that time and was completed in 1983. Last year the City of Austin and the former owners and founders of the Armadillo put up a plaque at the site to commemorate the place. The Armadillo was a very popular hangout for all kinds of people, everyone from hippies to cowboys. Even local and state politicians hung out there. The future mayor of Austin, then State Comptroller, Carole Keeton McClellan, hung out there as well believe or not! The place was notorious for Marijuana use, even the police knew this but never made a raid on the place since many of their fellow officers and local and state politicians. Remember, this was the Austin of the 70s. The Armadillo had a long list of famous musicians who played there. AC/DC's first North American gig was played at the Armadillo World Headquarters in 1977. My oldest cousin actually went to that concert. The B-52's, Count Basie, Ray Charles, The Clash, Jerry Garcia Band, (Hell yes), The Big Bopper, Willie Nelson, (of course), Bob Seger, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Frank Zappa. Man the list goes on and on.

Of course the other great loss was the Old Main at the University of Texas being torn down only 35 years after it was built to make way for the UT Tower. To this day it is the tallest building to ever be demolished in Austin.

[MichaelB]

Actually, for me, it was about the current building boom and realizing we have not lost much in the process. Most of the building that have either gone up recently, are the the process or proposed are filling in empty or unused spaces. Even the big "evil Marriot" is filling up 70-75% empty lots.
Just to assure folks who don't live here that, at this point, it mostly all those long time empty lots downtown that are going away. I think that is a big plus.

It will be interesting to see how long before we get into the position of loosing other "treasured" proprties. I suppose that concern is more to the east and south at this point. But again, as I think thru projects, most (not all) are not displacing anything I would consider a minus. THere are some, Maybe this is a new thread.... or not!

[KevinFromTexas]

My mom of all people actually commented on being opposed to new projects displacing retail businesses. She's not exactly a proponent of downtown either. She talked about a project that she heard about on the news that was being proposed by Gables. They're planning to demolish the Poke Joe's on 5th Street along with a furniture store and some other business. She said she'd be opposed to store owners being forced out of their building for a new development. I told her that they're only forced after their lease is up. I said that renters don't own the building, or the land it sits on, and since they don't they don't have much say about their stay at that location.

Something else to point out here is that yes, some businesses and even *gasp* music clubs and bars might be forced to move. I doubt anything around the music entertainment districts like 6th Street and even in the Warehouse District will be forced to move, though since those areas are already well established nodes of downtown entertainment and an attraction for visitors and residents. Also even the retail and clubs that are forced to move will be replaced later on. Once the downtown population increases, up to 25,000 people living there, there will be a large demand for everything from grocery stores to music clubs.