Maritime Union(United Maritime Province)

[skyscraper_1]

It has been discussed on SSC, but in case some people missed it.

The idea of a united maritime province has arisen many times in our history. But do you think it is time to make in a reality? Supporters of the idea(i know some of us are here!) please list some advantages you can think of.:)

[MTLskyline]

Some Advantages:
- 1.8 million people (more people than Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland)
- Likely would be Canada's most densely populated province
- New Brunswick and PEI were once part of Nova Scotia
- PEI is too small in area and population to be a province by itself

As for suggested names?
- Acadia (Acadie in French)
- Re-use the Nova Scotia name for the new province
- Atlantica

[Smevo]

Some other advantages would be a united effort in things such as tourism, political issues and attracting business rather than each province putting in separate efforts for their own little piece of the Canadian pie, usually ending up in fighting with the other two provinces in question.

Less bickering over ALC revenue which goes to highways, healthcare, and other provincially funded matters. An agreement would have to be negotiated with NL, but the "Acadian" portion could actually go where it needs to go without three provinces fighting over it.

As was mentioned, the combined population and density would help give the area the political clout it deserves with Ottawa. Though I'm not sure if it would be the most densely populated province, it would definitely be denser than some who get more pull with Ottawa.

The overall theme is Maritime co-operation would be much more beneficial to all areas of the three current provinces than the current reality of bickering and fighting with each other to get the table scraps. It would also force renegotiation of business deals such as the natural gas deals in NS, giving a better chance of fair royalties and due process in choosing deals. All I'll say here is, I'm glad Hamm is no longer premier of NS.

Big business (ie-Irving) would not have as strong a pull with the new government and could be held more accountable for questionable decisions.

There's a lot more detailed discussion on the SSC thread, but I'm glad you started a new discussion here, skyscraper1, as it will be good to hear some opinions of people not involved in the discussion over there.

[big W]

I would say a huge advantage is the removal of the dupluication in delivery of services as you would have 1 government instead of 3 thus increasing government effeciency. However this will never happen.

[alps]

I would say a huge advantage is the removal of the dupluication in delivery of services as you would have 1 government instead of 3 thus increasing government effeciency. However this will never happen.

:previous: Why not?

[skyscraper_1]

^ Their are many hurtles to be overcome that is for sure. For example, its not like government workers want to give up there jobs/benefits just for the betterment of the region. Reactionary public unions would fight this tooth and nail.

[Smevo]

Many years or decades before it happens if the movement starts now? Yes. But never say never my friend. :)

There are many hurdles, including complaining bureaucrats and the like, but remember that the baby-boomers are coming up to retirement soon. The perfect opportunity to merge operations and get rid of redundancy in the Maritimes would be in the next 5-10 years.

[atlanticaparty]

Some Advantages:
- 1.8 million people (more people than Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland)
- Likely would be Canada's most densely populated province
- New Brunswick and PEI were once part of Nova Scotia
- PEI is too small in area and population to be a province by itself

As for suggested names?
- Acadia (Acadie in French)
- Re-use the Nova Scotia name for the new province
- Atlantica

We like Atlantica.

tap

[Smevo]

No offense, but "Atlantica" sounds cheesy. We've been using "Acadia" as the (temporary?) name in the SSC discussions. It's a move to send us forward and make us stronger, but the name of "Acadia" would keep our history and culture more alive, in a way, than most other names for the area would.

But this thread isn't really to debate the name, but to get more input on what people here think about the concept, whether it would be beneficial and what challenges it would face. :)

[kwajo]

In some ways I am in favour of this idea (especially the increased federal clout), but I can't fully step behind this idea. First of all, it is pretty obvious that Halifax would be favoured heavily in such a merger of provinces, and Moncton as well to a lesser extent. Many periphery regions of the new province would feel overmatched by Halifax, creating a centrism reminiscent of Toronto. Moncton would also be a big winner because of its claim as a "hub" for the region, and would probably hold a lot of government offices. Fredericton, Sydney, Saint John & Charlottetown would be potential big losers in this scheme unless something was done to divide up government departments between the cities.

I'm also divided by the social issues. I'm a huge, HUGE, fan of Maritime pride, but I don't want to lose the individual histories of each province. Tough call on that one. I guess I could swallow my NB pride in exchange for the possible economic benefits, as long as they don't call the whole thing Nova Scotia (over my dead body).

Atlantica is a horrible name, Atlantis would be worse, and Acadia is a solid option (historically it is the name of the region after all), but today it carries too much political weight because of Acadian culture, so I doubt that name would be used.

[atlanticaparty]

What is SSC?

[skyscraper_1]

In some ways I am in favour of this idea (especially the increased federal clout), but I can't fully step behind this idea. First of all, it is pretty obvious that Halifax would be favoured heavily in such a merger of provinces, and Moncton as well to a lesser extent. Many periphery regions of the new province would feel overmatched by Halifax, creating a centrism reminiscent of Toronto. Moncton would also be a big winner because of its claim as a "hub" for the region, and would probably hold a lot of government offices. Fredericton, Sydney, Saint John & Charlottetown would be potential big losers in this scheme unless something was done to divide up government departments between the cities.

I'm also divided by the social issues. I'm a huge, HUGE, fan of Maritime pride, but I don't want to lose the individual histories of each province. Tough call on that one. I guess I could swallow my NB pride in exchange for the possible economic benefits, as long as they don't call the whole thing Nova Scotia (over my dead body).

Atlantica is a horrible name, Atlantis would be worse, and Acadia is a solid option (historically it is the name of the region after all), but today it carries too much political weight because of Acadian culture, so I doubt that name would be used.

The best choice for the Acadian capital would be Charlottown imo. Halifax could probably bounce back from the loss of government jobs pretty quickly, Moncton doesn't have to many government jobs so it would be essentually uneffected. Freddy would be hit the hardest.

[Kelvin]

SSC is "Skyscraper City", another forum on urban issues etc.

I agree that a unified Maritime/Atlantic region is most beneficial for all the reasons stated above. In considering a capital though, it is not always necessary to make it the largest city. The Americans, as an example, seem to have gone out of their way in making smaller but centrally located cities their state capitals (Augusta, Albany, Lansing, Sacramento, etc.).

[kwajo]

I agree, Charlottetown has always been my choice for this as well. It has the confederation history, and I think it would see the least amount of controversy and complaining if it was declared the capitol.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

In some ways I am in favour of this idea (especially the increased federal clout), but I can't fully step behind this idea. First of all, it is pretty obvious that Halifax would be favoured heavily in such a merger of provinces, and Moncton as well to a lesser extent. Many periphery regions of the new province would feel overmatched by Halifax, creating a centrism reminiscent of Toronto.

I think if we were united it would actually lessen the centrism as Halifax is right now forty percent of Nova Scotia's population, but only 15 percent of the population of the Maritimes (or something like those numbers). With Halifax, Moncton and Saint John there would be other cities in the new province balancing Halifax. Right now Sydney is the only other city in Nova Scotia and unfortunatly I'm not always sure it gets the attention it deserves.

[Smevo]

Thanks everyone for the input. One thing that we proposed was a regional structure (if you like, I can post a copy of it on here) centred around the cities to break down old provincial loyalties and promote more regional loyalties. Another thing we've pretty much agreed on was that Halifax would not be the capital, and we've thrown out many possibilities including Charlottetown, Moncton, and Truro, but we've kinda left that sit for a while as we'd probably need someone from outside (preferably Newfoundland) to make up a shortlist of 4 or 5 cities to be voted on by the public, presumably. Anyway, keep the suggestions and comments coming.

[someone123]

First of all, it is pretty obvious that Halifax would be favoured heavily in such a merger of provinces, and Moncton as well to a lesser extent. Many periphery regions of the new province would feel overmatched by Halifax, creating a centrism reminiscent of Toronto.

This is completely correct, but it shouldn't be considered a negative consequence.

One major economic problem with the Maritimes has always been that it has never had the kind of "centrism" of other regions. As a result, it has had no large city and the (many, many) people and businesses who are attracted to that kind of environment simply leave the region. Over the decades the region has lost hundreds of thousands of people, first to Boston then Toronto and now increasingly Calgary. Why? No city in the region offered the kind of critical mass necessary to support the array of economic and cultural activities that these others do.

Halifax is the only place in the Maritimes that could conceivably become a "major city" that would retain many of those who now leave. The alternative is to continue to allow other cities to effectively play the role of regional centre for the Maritimes while the provincial squabbling continues. That is probably what is most likely to happen.

[Smevo]

^no real arguments there, but it doesn't need to be the capital in order to achieve that, and being the capital may actually hinder it. That's mostly why we are against Halifax being the capital of the united province, that and to avoid people complaining that Halifax gets everything "just because it's the capital".

However, though Halifax should be brought up to "critical mass", this is something that would inevitably happen if it was left up to the regions themselves to attract businesses and employment, but would also help the other regions as well. The initial role of the government would only be to aid each region in advertising itself rather than directing employment creation to each region. This would help the individual regions and the maritimes as a whole.

[someone123]

I don't think it really matters where the capital is, although Moncton is kind of bland.

The issue has more to do with government handouts and regulations. It would be completely counterproductive if the Maritimes became one province and then hundreds of millions of dollars were spent to try to get companies to move to smaller cities where they otherwise wouldn't. It is much better to simply cut taxes or provide incentives across the board and let businesses go where they will. If taxes dropped dramatically, every part of the region would benefit.

Another factor to consider is that even if funding were balanced throughout the region Halifax would still effectively be subsidizing the Maritimes just as it subsidizes NS right now. (see http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/lfss05b.htm ).

[skyscraper_1]

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/lfss05b.htm ).

I see a lot of good news in the umemployment figures for the region. Of course some of this is due to the 'Alberta factor', which is fine. However, many regions have increased labour forces size/participation rates and falling unemployment rates.

Unemployment rates by province(January 07)

Nova Scotia:............ 7.6%
New Brunswick:.........8.2%
Prince Edward Island...12.9%

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Thanks everyone for the input. One thing that we proposed was a regional structure (if you like, I can post a copy of it on here) centred around the cities to break down old provincial loyalties and promote more regional loyalties. Another thing we've pretty much agreed on was that Halifax would not be the capital, and we've thrown out many possibilities including Charlottetown, Moncton, and Truro

I wouldn't mind seeing the proposed regional structure.

I know this is a little early in the debate, but logistically wouldn't it make sense to retain one of the existing capitals? The bureacuracy and office space and legislature would already be in place. Would it not save time and effort to reuse this instead of starting from scratch in Moncton?

[Smevo]

^You've got a point, but there's problems that would be associated with each current capital.
Halifax - It would look like Nova Scotia was merely taking over the other two provinces. Also, the problems that are associated with having the largest city as the capital (outside areas complaining about all the development going to Halifax and government trying to compensate by directing some growth elsewhere). Places like Northern New Brunswick would feel more isolated and cut off, and the CBLP would be strengthened and you'd probably see at least one more fringe provincial separation movement started elsewhere.

Fredericton - Non-centralized location, poor transportation system unable to support the growth that a surge in beuraucratic jobs would bring, not enough space or (more importantly) planning foresight to facilitate rapid growth. Also, the city is trying to focus on keeping the "small town feel", and this would inhibit growth and make it impractical to relocate the jobs there.

Charlottetown - best bet in terms of location, but would have a real hard time handling the influx of government jobs associated with this. In the centre of a very small island already struggling with environmental issues associated with population growth, and trying their best (fairly successfully so far) to minimize sprawl, and all these things would become impossible with a boom of immigrating government workers.

Moncton has been pretty much thrown out because, even with it's central location, rapid growth, and ability to handle increased growth, there are too many problems associated with it mostly in the way of complaints from the general population (not limited to Haligonians).

This is why we say that there has to be an outside source to recommend different cities/towns to be voted on. Truro seemed the most advantageous of the places brought up thusfar, being in a prime position to take advantage of all forms of transporation (Halifax port, Halifax and Moncton airports, intersecting highways, rail lines, etc) and having the room for growth and an existing area population of approximately 40,000.

Though people in the city might not see it, having the capital in the largest city only creates a highly increased level of animosity towards the capital from outsiders, which is highly evident in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Ontario, and I would be surprised if it was also the case in Manitoba.

I'll go bring in the up to date tentative regional structure in the next post.

[Smevo]

Revised Regions
I made some additional revisions because the revisions around the Fundy Regions left some imbalance and impracticality in two neighbouring regions.

http://www.pbase.com/smevo/image/74500456.jpg
Ok, the legend, Red = Northern Region, Pink = Gulf Region, Purple = Border Region, Pale Blue = Mouth of Fundy Region, Dark Green = Tantramar Region, Dark Purple = Cobequid Region, Yellow = South Shore Region, Orange = Halifax Region, Brown = Canso Region, Pale Green = Northeast Region, Blue = Island Region.

Northern Region - 175,846
Counties: Victoria (NB), Madawaska, Restigouche, Gloucester
Principal Towns/Cities: Grand Falls, Edmundston, Campbellton, Bathurst
(lost Northumberland (Miramichi) in the revision)

Gulf Region - 82,200
Counties: Northumberland, Kent
Principal Towns/Cities: Miramichi, Cocagne
(new region created during revisions)

Border Region - 152,034
Counties: Carleton, York, Sunbury, Queens
Principal Towns/Cities: Woodstock, Fredericton, Oromocto, Minto
unrevised

Mouth of Fundy Region - 209,212
Counties: Charlotte, Saint John, Kings (NB), Digby, Annapolis
Principal Towns/Cities: St. Stephen, Saint John, Quispamsis/Rothesay, Digby, Middleton.
(renamed. added Digby lost Kings (NS) in revision)

Tantramar Region - 184,042
Counties: Westmorland, Albert, Cumberland
Principal Towns/Cities: Moncton, Riverview, Amherst
(new region)

Cobequid Region - 148,706
Counties: Colchester, Hants, Kings (NS)
Principal Towns: Truro, Enfield, Kentville
(renamed region, lost Cumberland and Albert Counties, added Kings (NS) county)

South Shore Region - 102,359
Counties: Yarmouth, Shelburne, Queens (NS), Lunenburg
Principal Towns: Yarmouth, Shelburne, Liverpool, Bridgewater
(renamed, lost Digby county, added Lunenburg county to even out population)

Halifax Region - 359,111
Counties: Halifax
Principal City: HRM
(renamed, lost Lunenburg county)

Canso Region - 105,813
Counties: Richmond, Inverness, Guysborough, Antigonish, Pictou
Principal Towns: St. Peter's, Port Hawkesbury, Guysborough, Antigonish, New Glasgow.
(added Richmond and Inverness counties)

Northeast Region - 116,848
Counties: Cape Breton, Victoria (NS)
Principal Towns/Cities: CBRM, Baddeck
(renamed, lost Richmond and Inverness)

Island Region - 135,294
Counties: Prince, Queens (PE), Kings (PE)
Principal Towns/Cities: Summerside, Charlottetown, Montague
(renamed, lost Westmorland and Kent counties)

The reason I had to make the new Gulf region was because there was no connection between Kent county and PEI. These new revisions even out the regional populations even more, now with only one region (Gulf) under 100,000 and the largest being Halifax with 359,000. Still open for more suggestions/comments. :cheers:



The new province (let's call it Acadia for now) would fit into the scheme of things like this...

Population....Land Area....Density..........GDP.............Parliament Seats
.................................................Total......P/C........House...Senate
1,822,092...130,448.......13.97.......$59.32B...32,556.....25........24

Which leaves us with this on the national level

Population.....Land Area......Density...................GDP
..............................................................Total.............P/C
Ontario.............Nunavut.......Acadia..............Ontario........NWT
Quebec............Quebec........Ontario............Quebec..........Alberta
BC...................NWT...........Quebec............Alberta..........Yukon
Alberta.............BC..............Alberta............BC................Ontario
Acadia...........Ontario...........BC................Acadia..........SK
Manitoba...........Alberta........Manitoba........SK.................NL
SK..................SK...............SK................Manitoba..........BC
NL*................Manitoba........NL*...............NL.................Nunavut
NWT.................NL..............Yukon...........NWT...............Quebec
Yukon...............Yukon..........NWT............Yukon.............Manitoba
Nunavut...........Acadia......Nunavut........Nunavut............Acadia
*indicates 2001 statistics, all others are 2006 for population and 2005 for GDP
All stats from Wikipedia except county stats from StatsCan 2001 census.

[someone123]

The "animosity" thing is kind of silly, particularly if avoiding these perceived problems in the regions means spending millions of extra dollars to do things like construct a completely new capital.

Maritimers are also unrealistic when it comes to distances. Edmundston is approximately 7 hours from Halifax, but Thunder Bay for example is 14 hours from Toronto and is much more substantial.

Artificial regions don't matter very much in practice. The Eastern Shore was thrown in with Halifax by the NS provincial government but still hasn't really changed. Meanwhile, other areas like Lunenburg and Hants counties are technically separate but are increasingly becoming bedroom communities. The town of Windsor for example actively markets itself as a town for commuters from the city, and I've worked with several people who make the commute from Lunenburg, which is actually closer than the Eastern part of the HRM. This is easy to see given the economic statistics for these areas.

[Wishblade]

yeah, I have to say that not making a certain city the capital just because the public thinks it shouldnt for a rediculous reason as 'they already get too much' is just not feasable. The captial should go to a central location, which is already a capital with the infrastructure and people in place.

A lot of people may not agree, but in my mind the capital should probably be Halifax if this were to happen.

[Smevo]

^The main stumbling block for a united province for everyone I talk to in New Brunswick, and most people in Cape Breton (dunno about PEI) is having the capital in Halifax. Things work a lot better for the largest city and the province as a whole when the capital city is not the largest city (eg- most of the US, British Columbia/Vancouver, Quebec/Montreal minus the separatist movement, etc).

People in New Brunswick are surprisingly open to this as long as the capital isn't Halifax because that immediately makes them believe Nova Scotia is taking over the other two provinces. You have to think of the Nova Scotians outside of Halifax, the people in New Brunswick, and the people in PEI (in other words, the other approximately 80% of the population involved).

The regions are, for the most part, the way the economic regions of the Maritimes work already. They would be instituted to get rid of the old county structure and to break down old loyalties to the former provinces. They are in no way an instrument for the government to direct growth, they are simply regions around an economic centre (or two) that would work in a free-market way to attract growth appropriate for the region, the government would only initially help the region decide what kind of growth would be most beneficial, than leave the region to their own tools.

[Smevo]

There is another way around this capital issue, and that would be put the emphaisis of provincial bureaucratic jobs into regional offices, with only the manager types (and bureacrats for the capital region itself) in the capital. This would lessen the isolation effect and would lessen the boom effect and other negative effects for wherever the capital happened to be (Charlottetown, Fredericton, Halifax, Truro, or otherwise). Regional breakdowns would be absolutely necessary for this type of setup, and since there's satellite provincial offices in most significant towns as it is, it would only be a matter of scattering around a (relatively) few jobs.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

The regions are, for the most part, the way the economic regions of the Maritimes work already. They would be instituted to get rid of the old county structure and to break down old loyalties to the former provinces. They are in no way an instrument for the government to direct growth, they are simply regions around an economic centre (or two) that would work in a free-market way to attract growth appropriate for the region, the government would only initially help the region decide what kind of growth would be most beneficial, than leave the region to their own tools.

Would cities and towns within these regions stay municipalities? In other words would their be some form of regional government in the Border region, with seperate municipal councils in Fredericton, Woodstock, etc.

Or would the regions operate as one giant municipality kind of like HRM or Cape Breton do now?

[Smevo]

They wouldn't work as regional municipalities like in Nova Scotia currently, the cities and towns would still be separate governments, they would just replace the county "government-type" structures. As far as dissolving the HRM and CBRM, that would be up to the government to decide.

As far as the choice for capital, which has almost taken over this thread, I think we should just let it be because it's the least of our worries and the group behind this movement would not be able to choose a capital anyway. As was stated, it would have to go to an independent body for suggestions to be voted on by the general public.

[skyscraper_1]

I really cannot see a Maritime Union happening with Halifax as capital. Like Smevo stated it would be a deal killer for the rest of the region. I have found the same opposition with Halifax as capital. Charlottown is a nice middle ground.

Halifax does need to be invested in and focused on as the Maritimes ace city. However, it does not need to be the capital for this to happen.

[kirjtc2]

They wouldn't work as regional municipalities like in Nova Scotia currently, the cities and towns would still be separate governments, they would just replace the county "government-type" structures. As far as dissolving the HRM and CBRM, that would be up to the government to decide.


I've put some thought into how local governments would function if this ever happens. I can't see an HRM/CBRM-type setup working (still think they're just too large to work effectively)...but I don't like the set up in New Brunswick either where there are practically no elected governments in rural areas.

What could happen is a system like what Nova Scotia had before the HRM and CBRM were set up (or New Brunswick pre-Robichaud), where counties or smaller regional municipalities cover rural areas, while towns continue to function as-is. A lot of village governments in NB and PEI would be dissolved, but I'd also suggest incorporating some more towns like Sackville or Cole Harbour that weren't before amalgamation.

Then again, I'm probably just blowing smoke.

[someone123]

It would be kind of pointless to break up the HRM. I'm not sure what reverting back to the old cities would achieve, and many other cities are trying to build the kind of overarching structure that Halifax has had since 1996.

If anything, I think the far Eastern areas should be cut loose and the parts of Hants and Lunenburg where they are building lots of new subdivisions should be annexed since they are suburbs.

It's sort of a fallacy that the HRM is "unworkable" or that it contains large numbers of random rural areas. It contains a large land area, and 1/3-1/2 is rural, but hardly anybody lives there. Other "rural" areas such as Hammonds Plains and Fall River are in fact almost totally suburban. These are more far-flung than in other cities around the region but that's hardly surprising when the other cities are less than one third as large (although proportionately both the Saint John CMA and Moncton CA contain much more rural land).

I don't know what the story is with the CBRM.

[SHOFEAR]

The idea of more political power interested me. Obviously the region speaking as one would lead to more political clout. But wouldn't the seat redistribution that would follow mean a huge loss in MP's for the region? As I understand it, it is not possible for provinces to lose MP's even when their share of the population decreases (which is the case for the atlantic provinces). But if a new province was created, seats would be assigned based on current ratios.

[Smevo]

I'm liking how this discussion is evolving. I have a few comments.

Charlottown is a nice middle ground.

Halifax does need to be invested in and focused on as the Maritimes ace city. However, it does not need to be the capital for this to happen.

Precisely, and if the regional structure to satellite offices I proposed worked like I think it would (though it quite possibly might not), it would ease the growing pains by limiting them for Charlottetown, which also already has existing provincial government infrastructure in place and would merely need some expansion.

I've put some thought into how local governments would function if this ever happens. I can't see an HRM/CBRM-type setup working (still think they're just too large to work effectively)...but I don't like the set up in New Brunswick either where there are practically no elected governments in rural areas.

What could happen is a system like what Nova Scotia had before the HRM and CBRM were set up (or New Brunswick pre-Robichaud), where counties or smaller regional municipalities cover rural areas, while towns continue to function as-is. A lot of village governments in NB and PEI would be dissolved, but I'd also suggest incorporating some more towns like Sackville or Cole Harbour that weren't before amalgamation.

That's exactly what I was thinking, though I'm staying away from the topic of dissolving the CBRM and HRM and think that decision should be negotiated with each of the municipalities on an individual basis and the new provincial government.

@someone123 - you'd know a lot better than I would about how workable HRM is and where it's growth is, and where it's one central conglomeration of people, I could see it being better untouched. As for the CBRM, it's debatable. People still identify themselves as being from the old towns/city rather than from the CBRM, but whether it's related or not, knowledge of the area from "outsiders" has seemed to increase back to former levels since amalgamation. I think CBRM would work better as separate units, but again, I think that should be negotiated between HRM - province and CBRM - province with input from all affected communities.

The idea of more political power interested me. Obviously the region speaking as one would lead to more political clout. But wouldn't the seat redistribution that would follow mean a huge loss in MP's for the region? As I understand it, it is not possible for provinces to lose MP's even when their share of the population decreases (which is the case for the atlantic provinces). But if a new province was created, seats would be assigned based on current ratios.

Didn't think about the seat loss. Any idea how many we'd lose? If it was unchanged, the new province would have 24 house seats and 25 senate seats. Even with the loss of seats, I would think that the co-operation of the three current provinces as one would outweigh the negatives of seat loss, since the three provinces compete with each other currently, and we'd actually be looked at as a region where we should be, since our combined population is 5th, behind Alberta and ahead of Manitoba, and we'd still have the smallest land area of all the provinces/territories.

[kirjtc2]

Officially the rule is that a province can never lose seats in the House or Senate - that's why you hear all the whining from out west that PEI should be even more insignificant in Ottawa than it already is. I wouldn't expect the region to lose representation, simply based on that rule.

[SSLL]

Halifax should be the capital because it's the largest and most well-known. Get Halifax to be a huge city, and then the rest of the region will prosper as well.

Why would Cape Breton have anything against Halifax being its capital? It's been the capital of its province since long before its confederation. And good luck making out on its own!

I like the use of Acadia/Acadie for the name.

[Smevo]

^The growth in the Cape Breton as a province movement (http://www.provinceofcapebreton.com) probably had a lot to do with the John Hamm government, their policies, and how they got elected in the first time. I don't agree with the movement, but that's what has given it new strength. MacDonald hasn't been in long enough to have a major effect on it either way.

No offense, but please read through the posts before you make such an uninformed comment as "Halifax should be the capital because it's the largest and most well known," and before insinuating that Halifax being the capital would necessarily cause it to grow rapidly. It has already been mentioned several times that the main opposition point to this merger of the provinces from the provinces outside of Nova Scotia is having Halifax as the capital. In other words, the other provinces won't agree to the merger if Halifax is unilaterally appointed as the capital of the new province without a free vote from the citizens. It has also been mentioned that many of the most successful cities in the provinces of Canada and the states of the USA are not the capital of their respective provinces and states.

Here's some examples off the top of my head:
British Columbia: capital - Victoria, largest city - Vancouver
Alberta: capital - Edmonton, largest city - Calgary (though they are very close in population in this example)
Quebec: capital - Quebec City, largest city - Montreal
New York state: capital - Albany, largest city - New York
California: capital - Sacramento, largest city - Los Angeles
Florida: capital - Tallahassee, largest city - Miami

the list goes on, but I'll stop there. Also, as previously stated several times, our group would not unilaterally appoint any city as the capital, leaving it up to an impartial organization from outside the uniting provinces to make a shortlist of suggestions to be put to a vote or some other acceptable method of choice from that shortlist. This would not completely eliminate Halifax as a possibility, but would ensure that if it did become the capital that it would have been chosen in a democratically acceptable way.

I like having outside input into this discussion, but please inform yourself about the area and read through the entire discussion before posting a reply. Thank you.

[SSLL]

I think it's more of an American thing to have the capital being a non-largest city.

In Canada, at the time of confederation, Edmonton was larger than Calgary. It's only in the last couple of decades that Calgary has ecliped Edmonton. The reason Victoria became the capital of BC is the BC we know it as now was the unification of two colonies, British Colombia (colony) and Vancouver Island (colony). VI was created before BC, and Victoria was the older capital. IIRC, Victoria also had a larger population at the time. It was the railroad terminus that resulted in Vancouver growing larger. Quebec was the capital, because that's where the colony was first settled. I'm not sure when Montreal eclipsed it, but I'm pretty sure it was after QC became capital.

The story of Tallahassee (not Jacksonville) being capital was the meeting of the two largest towns in Florida at the time (St. Augustine and Pensacola) Florida was ceded to the US. I'm not sure why Albany and Sacramento became capital.

All I'm saying is that there is precendence of capitals in Canadian provinces and territories being held by the largest city (at the time).

[Smevo]

^fair enough, but please also remember we are not unilaterally choosing a capital and were trying to get away from that discussion for the time being, since there are larger issues involved with this. You've also just proven my point that Halifax being the capital would not make it grow any faster than Halifax not being the capital.

Anyway, let's again get away from the capital issue and get on to other issues that will have a larger affect on the area.

Back to the regional discussion, would the scattering of non-managerial level bureaucratic jobs to regional offices be a good idea? Would it have an impact on public perception or the number of bureaucratic jobs?

Also with the regions, the counties of today in each province would be no more. The regions would be, in essence, an amalgamation of the counties involved using the old county government structure of NS and NB where the region is responsible for representing the rural population, whereas the cities and towns represent themselves, again with the city amalgamations currently in place remaining and the HRM/CBRM to do whatever's deemed best for them upon negotiation (probably remaining in place "as is"). Just wanted to clarify.

What are the other issues involved with uniting the provinces?

[steve81]

Great initiative. I've been thinking about this Maritime Union last night and found this thread on Google. I had SSP and SSC in my bookmarks for some time. In case anyone missed the Wikipedia entry on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_Union

I disagree that the choice of a capital city is a less important issue (but I agree we got other important issues to discuss). The choice of a capital is a major issue. For example if Halifax was chosen, it would be a no-deal. I can only see one city being the new capital and that would be Moncton, for 4 reasons:

1- Central location
2- High level of bilingualism (40%... such a level is only seen in Montreal and Ottawa elsewhere in Canada)
3- It has an airport
4- It's not Halifax

I would certainly like to know why some people object to Moncton. Any other city would probably be a no-deal for the French population. French demographics would go down in percentage for the French population in NB, but this would be a good thing for the French population in NS and PEI. The new province would have to have to be officially bilingual like NB.

Province - Total population - English - French - Other languages
New Brunswick - 719,710 - 465,720 (64.7%) - 236,775 (32.9%) - 11,935 (1.7%)
Nova Scotia - 897,570 - 834,315 (93.0%) - 34,155 (3.8%) - 26,510 (3.0%)
Prince Edward Island - 133,385 - 125,215 (93.9%) - 5,670 (4.3%) - 2,065 (1.5%)
[Statistics Canada, 2001 population census]
Total - 1,750,665 - 1,425,250 (81.4%) - 276,600 (15.8%) - 40,510 (2.3%)

I do think though even though a new capital is chosen, I don't think it would make sense to move everything in the new capital. Governmental buildings in Fredericton, Halifax and Charlottetown would be kept and some departments could be split between these cities. Some reorganization would have to take place and a legislative assembly would have to be built in the new capital, with a few governmental buildings. The Court of Appeal would probably start sitting in the new capital, even though it could sit in other cities in some occasions.

Acadia (Acadie in French) seems like the best choice for a name. The region was named Acadia by the French earlier in the history. "New Acadia" doesn't make sense as it is the same territory. The new province would need a new flag, which can't be the Acadian flag. It's the flag of the Acadian people and should remain so. A new flag would have to be designed. Also, emblem, symbols, etc...

Political representation, either on the provincial and federal level, is a big issue. Here is a ratio of of population per MLA in each provinces:

Province - Population - #MLA - Population/MLA
NB - 749,168 - 55 - 13,621/MLA
NS - 934,405 - 52 - 17,969/MLA
PEI - 138,519 - 27 - 5,130/MLA

Total - 1,822,092 - 134 - 13,597/MLA

Huge difference, especially with PEI. This needs to be dealt with. To have an idea of how much we should have, let's take a look at ratios in other provinces:

BC - 4,310,452 - 79 - 54,562/MLA
AB - 3,413,500 - 83 - 41,126/MLA
SK - 985,386 - 58 - 16,989/MLA
MB - 1,177,765 - 57 - 20,662/MLA
ON - 12,686,952 - 103 - 123,174/MLA
QC - 7,651,531 - 125 - 61,212/MNA
NL - 509,677 - 48 - 10,618/MLA

To me, it seems obvious the number of MLAs would have to go down. A new number of MLAs would have to be decided.

Federal representation is a more complex issue, because the maritimes are actually over-represented in the House of Commons and the Senate.

Province - House - Senate
NB - 10 -10
NS - 11 - 10
PEI - 4 - 4
Total - 25 - 24

Merging the provinces would need a constitutional amendment. Other provinces would like to see the number of seats go down. I'm a law graduate and I've been thinking about what would be required to do such a constitutional amendment. It's quite obvious to me it would at least need resolutions from the House of Commons, the Senate and the legislative assemblies of the 3 maritime provinces.

What about number of seats? Basically, each province has a fixed number of Senate seats in the Constitution, and the Constitution states that a province shall always be entitled to a number of members in the House of Commons not less than the number of senators representing such province.

There is a problem though. The establishment of a new province requires resolutions from the House, the Senate and the legislative assemblies of at least two-thirds of the provinces that have, in the aggregate, according to the then latest general census, at least fifty per cent of the population of all the provinces. That means 7/10 provinces representing at least 50% of the population would have to agree with this. Since we would need resolutions of the 3 maritime provinces anyway, let's say we need approval of 4/7 other provinces representing at least ((33,098,932/2)-1,822,092) = 14,727,374. The Western provinces are not going to agree if we still keep being over-represented. So the number of Senators will have to go down for sure.

There is another way to do it I think which would not require the approval of the other provinces. Change the boundaries of one of the provinces to include the other 2 provinces, then change the name of the province. But then the new province would only be left with 10 senators, so it doesn't appear to be a good solution.

I also think we should keep the laws of New Brunswick, since they are already translated in French. Of course, many changes would have to be done after that. But rewriting everything would not make any sense. Some legislations from PEI and NS could be used too.

I've been thinking about some minor issues also...

There are plenty of other issues... what about Sunday shopping? I hope this NS law is put to rest once and for all. I certainly wouldn't want this law to apply in NB. I wonder if this could be an important issue for people in NS...

What about driver licenses? A new license card should be made, but should only be replaced when actual cards expired. This means the actual driver licenses would still be valid and would be replaced gradually. Within 4 years, we would all have an Acadia driver license. This way it wouldn't cost anything.

License plates is another issue. These are not replaced as often, they could be replaced when doing vehicle registration. Within one year, they would all be replaced.

[Smevo]

Moncton seems to have as strong an opposition to it from NS as Halifax does from NB. Another thing that was mentioned, because of the Acadian culture in all three provinces, is that the new province should be bilingual (as you said) but it was also suggested on SSC that the new capital (wherever it happened to be) could be the permanent home of the Acadian Congress as well. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts on that, especially from people from or near Acadian areas.

The smaller issues you brought up, although obvious, had not come up yet. My guess is that there would be some kind of request for designs for the flag, license, license plates, health cards, and whatever other provincial id card would need to be converted, which would be chosen either by the public themselves or the new government or a majority of the three existing governments (though probably by the new government).

I agree with the splitting of departments between the current capitals, at least as a temporary measure to "soften the blow" so to speak.

As for the constitutional reform, you may have seen on SSC that official correspondence will happen when the time comes between this group and the legislatures/parliament/senate as well as directly to the MLA's and MP's representing the areas of the members of this movement. Thanks for your input and your further input would be greatly appreciated. :)

Also, welcome to the forum. :cheers:

[steve81]

This is taken from the List of the 100 largest metropolitan areas in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Canada):

Rank in 2001 - Census Metropolitan Area or Census Agglomeration - Population in 2001 - Population Estimate in 2005
13 - * Halifax CMA, Nova Scotia - 359,183 - 380,800
28 - Saint John CMA (Rothesay, Quispamsis), New Brunswick - 122,678 - 126,700
30 - Moncton (Riverview, Dieppe), New Brunswick - 117,727 - 120,000
32 - Cape Breton Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia - 109,330 - 100,000
41 - * Fredericton, New Brunswick - 81,346 - 84,000
53 - * Charlottetown (Stratford), Prince Edward Island - 58,358 - 59,000
62 - Truro (Colchester, Subd. B; Colchester, Subd. C), Nova Scotia - 44,276 - 45,000
74 - New Glasgow (Pictou, Subd. C; Pictou,Subd. B; Stellarton; Westville), Nova Scotia - 36,735 - 36,000
92 - Kentville (Kings, Subd. B; Kings, Subd. C), Nova Scotia - 25,172 - 26,000
97 - Bathurst (Bathurst Parish, Beresford), New Brunswick - 23,935 - 23,000

The smallest provincial capital outside the Maritimes is:
19 - * St. John's CMA (Mount Pearl, Conception Bay South), Newfoundland and Labrador - 172,918 - 182,500

I don't want to turn this thread in a "what should be the capital" thread, but I think the choice of a capital is probably going to be the number one issue for most people. Being a francophone myself (French Canadian, but not Acadian, I'm from Northwestern NB), I'm quite sure you won't be able to sell this to francophones in NB if you choose and English city. I actually see only two possibilities : Moncton or Fredericton. Moncton for the reasons I states above and Fredericton because it's already home of a bilingual government. I'm quite sure Acadians would all favor Moncton though. Francophone represents 33% of the population of NB... they would only be 15% in Acadia. It will be pretty much impossible to sell them the idea of passing from 33% to 15% of the population if we don't have a bilingual capital.

[piper]

How about moving the capital to the Amherst, NS and Sackville, NB area. This location may help soothe fears from the people of these two provinces that they would be "absorbed" by the other and the Confereration Bridge connection to PEI is only 1/2 hr away so that the people of that province would be very close to the seat of the new government. The highway connections are excellent and Moncton and Halifax airports are within easy driving distance.

[kwajo]

It'd require too much construction of infrastructure, but I LOVE the Sackville/Amherst idea. Brilliant.

[steve81]

I thought about Sackville/Amherst too, but it would cost too much. And to be exactly on the borders of the 3 provinces, it would have to be here (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=46.092319,-63.603641&spn=0.005439,0.010042&om=1). Now try to build a legislative assembly there. :P

There's no airport around Sackville/Amherst, so you would have to go to Moncton anyway. It doesn't make sense to pick a small town. By the way, if Moncton was to be chosen, Fredericton would be the biggest loser. Would those reacting negatively against Moncton would do the same for St. John and Fredericton? The capital got to be in one of the 3 provinces. I would be against Halifax not because it is in Nova Scotia, but because it's not central and not bilingual. And from what I understand Halifax probably has opposition within Nova Scotia for those outside Halifax as it's a big city. Halifax has more than 3 times the population of Moncton. Smallest capital outside the maritimes is St.John's, NL with a population of 182,500.

My point is that French is going to be a big deal. Picking Bathurst or Edmundston as a capital wouldn't make much sense as they are too small and to far away for most people.

Another major thing is representation. As I explained above, we would certainly lose MP and Senate seats in the process. So we will have to come with strong positive arguments about why this is a good idea for the maritimes to justify losing about 5-6 MPs and 5-6 Senators. And I read earlier that unions will probably object. I agree. That's why we need to put an emphasis on how the 3 previous capitals would each have their share of department headquarters. The new capital would have the legislative assembly with the Premier and MLA's offices. As for the Court of Appeal, if Moncton was chosen, it would probably sit in Halifax and Moncton (Like Montreal and Quebec City in Quebec).

[steve81]

By the way, I came across the topic on a Conservative forum... the idea seemed to have been rejected by most people:
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27922

[steve81]

Been thinking about one thing. In the past, you had to centralize the government in a capital, so things would all be close by. Today, this is less necessary with the internet. That's why I think the fear of government lost jobs in the previous capitals (like Halifax) should not be such a big issue as it would not make any sense to move everything in the new capital for several reasons:

1- We wont be able to convince people in the government to support us if we are telling them you will all have to relocate;
2- The costs of moving everything and building government offices would be so high it would be an argument against the maritime union;
3- People complaints (especially, but not limited to, those in the previous capitals).

Of course some changes would be made to have a more efficient government. The point of doing this is to save money by combining 3 governments into one. But it would be quite decentralized. Departments and agencies would be split between previous capitals, with a few going to the new one. This would mean a lot of reorganization though. Few would have to move to a different city (for example one person might have to move from Fredericton to Halifax to grab a new opportunity), but many would be switching to another department or agency (to avoid relocating). And with more people retiring, we could diminish the number of civil servants. I think when you present the project like this, you'll get more support.

[steve81]

For example, Fisheries in Halifax, Agriculture in Charlottetown and Natural Resources in Fredericton. My example may not be a good one, but you get the idea.

[piper]

I agree that infrastructure costs would be an issue when moving the region's capital to an area such as Sackville/Amherst. I believe, however, that no matter where such a capital moves infrastructure costs would be an issue. I don't see how moving to any city outside of the existing capital regions, such as Moncton, would be significanly cheaper than moving to Sackville/Amherst. Also I think that the distance and time to drive from Sackville to the Moncton Airport is not any different than the drive from downtown Halifax to its airport!

[toones]

OK, I think some of the ideas on this thread are very interesting. Heres my take on the regional distribution.

http://i5.pbase.com/g6/52/750252/2/75174185.4IC0CdUu.jpg

Based on recent (2006) provinical registered voters, heres how the regional populations break down. I figure the multiplier for 'actual' populations is around 1.34 or so. Obviously the names are debatable but I chose what I thought was a politically correct historical or geopgraphical representation for each region.

1. Madawaska - pop. 94,548
2. Miramachi - pop. 99,206
3. Sunbury - pop. 113,896
4. Fundy - pop. 120,133
5. Tantramar - pop. 154,810
6. Prince Edward - pop. 99,252
7. Cape Breton - pop. 110,668
8. East Scotia - pop. 94,073
9. Cobequid - pop. 94,423
10. West Nova - pop. 84, 771
11. Halifax - pop. 270,196

12. Capitol Region - Charlottetown

I tried to align the regions based on a similar economies and common regional centres. Transportation routes were also considered.

As far as the capitol, i advocate Charlottetown for the following reasons.
- politically it is the safest choice for NB and NS
- the historical beginnings in of our new region of Acadia originated there in the 1860's
- PEI can maintain a sense of importance in what would be a reduced influence over its own affairs. By this I mean that PEI was a whole province of its own but realistically should only contain one region in Acadia. By having the capitol as another district in PEI it can essentially weild more power than its population. This might make a merger politically possible versus impossible.
-the politacal infrastructure is already there and with the proposed regions above I believe that the regional centres can house certain government departments. i.e. to maintain a psuedo decentralized government. This is a typicall Maritime government strategy anyway, for example the geomatics centre is in Amherst for all of Nova Scotia... not in Halifax.

[steve81]

Picking Sackville/Amherst just because it's on the border doesn't make much sense. Keep in mind that border is not going to exist anymore after the union. If you want something central, you got to pick Moncton. Closer to the airport. You could pick Dieppe as a capital too, but I always say Moncton because it's the same metropolitain area.

I also thought about Charlottetown. But the only reasons I did so was because, like toones said, it might be the only way to get PEI to accept this. However, Charlottetown is farther than Moncton for everyone except for people within PEI and people from New Glasglow & Cape Breton (with the Pictou crossing ferry). Also, the PEI legislative assembly is going to be too small and would need expansion. PEI has 27 MLAs and Acadia could end up having as much as 100. The cost of expanding the PEI legislature may as well be as much as building a new one. Here's a table of distance:

City - Distance from Moncton - Distance from Charlottetown
Edmundston - 444 km - 610 km
Bathurst - 223 km - 340 km
Miramichi - 148 km - 265 km
Fredericton - 176 km - 341 km
St. John - 155 km - 320 km
Moncton - 0 km - 165 km

Charlottetown - 165 km - 0 km
Summerside - 138 km - 60 km

Yarmouth - 332 km - 601 km
Halifax - 263 km - 324 km
Truro - 175 km - 235 km
New Glasgow - 228 km - 105 km
Cape Breton - 471 km - 348 km
[underline means crossing ferry; bold means shorter distance]
[distances taken from Google Maps]

Also, keep in mind French is going to be a major issue. Moncton would be a better choice for the French population.

The way I see it right now is this: Moncton would be the capital. The Justice and Finance departments would move to the new capital, which would also get French/Acadian Affairs. A new legislative assembly would be built with enough space for all MLAs. Other departments and agencies would be split between the previous capitals. As Moncton is in NB, Fredericton would probably be the biggest loser. Halifax would have to get something important so they would probably get Health. Of course, that discussion is premature, but it's just to give an idea of what it may look like.

[steve81]

Also I have a question... what's the importance of the delimitation of the regions? I feel like I've missed something. What's the importance of those regions? I have to admit being more knowledgeable of politics in Quebec versus NB, even though I'm from Edmundston.

[skyscraper_1]

Picking Sackville/Amherst just because it's on the border doesn't make much sense. Keep in mind that border is not going to exist anymore after the union. If you want something central, you got to pick Moncton. Closer to the airport. You could pick Dieppe as a capital too, but I always say Moncton because it's the same metropolitain area.

I also thought about Charlottetown. But the only reasons I did so was because, like toones said, it might be the only way to get PEI to accept this. However, Charlottetown is farther than Moncton for everyone except for people within PEI and people from New Glasglow & Cape Breton (with the Pictou crossing ferry). Also, the PEI legislative assembly is going to be too small and would need expansion. PEI has 27 MLAs and Acadia could end up having as much as 100. The cost of expanding the PEI legislature may as well be as much as building a new one. Here's a table of distance:

City - Distance from Moncton - Distance from Charlottetown
Edmundston - 444 km - 610 km
Bathurst - 223 km - 340 km
Miramichi - 148 km - 265 km
Fredericton - 176 km - 341 km
St. John - 155 km - 320 km
Moncton - 0 km - 165 km

Charlottetown - 165 km - 0 km
Summerside - 138 km - 60 km

Yarmouth - 332 km - 601 km
Halifax - 263 km - 324 km
Truro - 175 km - 235 km
New Glasgow - 228 km - 105 km
Cape Breton - 471 km - 348 km
[underline means crossing ferry; bold means shorter distance]
[distances taken from Google Maps]

Also, keep in mind French is going to be a major issue. Moncton would be a better choice for the French population.

The way I see it right now is this: Moncton would be the capital. The Justice and Finance departments would move to the new capital, which would also get French/Acadian Affairs. A new legislative assembly would be built with enough space for all MLAs. Other departments and agencies would be split between the previous capitals. As Moncton is in NB, Fredericton would probably be the biggest loser. Halifax would have to get something important so they would probably get Health. Of course, that discussion is premature, but it's just to give an idea of what it may look like.In all honesty, this is the 21st century and distance isn't really much of a factor anymore, especially given how small the Maritime region is. Moncton is certainly central and defiantly one of my top choices, however Charlottetown has more charm.

Again, if the first we try to do as pick a capital then this will never happen. Lets focus on the actually workings of the new province, obstacles etc. Once those are done, then the choice of capital becomes rather secondary.

[skyscraper_1]

Also I have a question... what's the importance of the delimitation of the regions? I feel like I've missed something. What's the importance of those regions? I have to admit being more knowledgeable of politics in Quebec versus NB, even though I'm from Edmundston. The regions are generally areas of the Maritimes that have the same general population, economic and geographical characteristics. They could potentially be used as a revised county system.

[steve81]

In all honesty, this is the 21st century and distance isn't really much of a factor anymore, especially given how small the Maritime region is. Moncton is certainly central and defiantly one of my top choices, however Charlottetown has more charm.

Again, if the first we try to do as pick a capital then this will never happen. Lets focus on the actually workings of the new province, obstacles etc. Once those are done, then the choice of capital becomes rather secondary.

French is a major obstacle. How do you think you will convince French/Acadians in NB to go from 33% of the population to 15% of the population? Being French myself, I don't see how I could support a Maritime Union with Charlottetown as the capital. You'll never get French support if you choose another place than Moncton. Plain and simple.

[skyscraper_1]

French is a major obstacle. How do you think you will convince French/Acadians in NB to go from 33% of the population to 15% of the population? Being French myself, I don't see how I could support a Maritime Union with Charlottetown as the capital. You'll never get French support if you choose another place than Moncton. Plain and simple.Does it matter THAT much? Why? Whether Acadians are represented in Moncton, Charlottetown, Halifax, or wherever they are still going to have the same proportional representation. A "my way or the highway" approach is probably not the best way to negotiate.

[steve81]

Does it matter THAT much? Why? Whether Acadians are represented in Moncton, Charlottetown, Halifax, or wherever they are still going to have the same proportional representation. A "my way or the highway" approach is probably not the best way to negotiate.

Well, it's not "my way", it's just the way it is. French is actually a major obstacle to this maritime union. Here is a quote from a Conservative forum where the idea was discussed:

There is one major political hurdle that would have to be overcome before any talk of a merger between the three Maritime provinces, and that is New Brunswick's official bilingual status. By the numbers, neither NS nor PEI warrant such status, and I don't believe a combined Maritime province would warrant it either. You'd be going from about 1/3 French populace in present NB to a little more than 1/8 in the combined whole, and most of that concentrated in the Acadians of northern and eastern NB.

I would expect, being raised in the Fredericton area, that the Acadians would vote en masse to oppose any Maritime union unless the combined province were bilingual, and the NB government has never had the spine to stand up to them, regardless of party affiliation. Official bilingualism ought to be a non-starter for NS and PEI -- agreeing to it would very quickly lead to French language activists going after separate schools, bilingual government proceedings, etc. (See what happened to Saint John for a potent example -- the city's gotta be 98%+ English, yet a single French activist won a court case compelling city hall to offer simultaneous translation of all proceedings into French. It's a plain old waste of money to have to do that in that city, but the French activists in NB simply don't care about such realities, especially the singular nut -- M. Charlebois, IIRC -- who brought that case. Hell, they're still all bent outta shape about getting an apology from the British crown for the Acadian deportation in 1755. Long, long memories they have, and if you ask me, long, long grudges they carry.)

Not that PEI and NS don't have their own French activists to deal with, especially in education, but I can only see it getting worse if bilingualism were forced on them/us (I call Dartmouth home these days) as a merger condition. Unless there's a way to get the Acadians to drop bilingualism -- and I have no idea how you do that -- NB can't join any union, and without them there's no point.
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27922&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

On a side note, it's harder to conceive how this would work without knowing where the capital will be, as there would be differences in choosing an actual capital versus a new one. Unless you decide to make different scenarios, of course.

[steve81]

Does it matter THAT much? Why? Whether Acadians are represented in Moncton, Charlottetown, Halifax, or wherever they are still going to have the same proportional representation. A "my way or the highway" approach is probably not the best way to negotiate.

I apologize if I sounded rude, I was just trying to make a point. My point is that this is the kind of thing (the "my way or the highway" approach) you will get from French activists. I'd rather have you prepared to this. People from NS might not be as familiar with this than people in NB.

[Smevo]

It doesn't make sense to pick a small town...My point is that French is going to be a big deal...As I explained above, we would certainly lose MP and Senate seats in the process. So we will have to come with strong positive arguments about why this is a good idea for the maritimes to justify losing about 5-6 MPs and 5-6 Senators. And I read earlier that unions will probably object. I agree. That's why we need to put an emphasis on how the 3 previous capitals would each have their share of department headquarters. The new capital would have the legislative assembly with the Premier and MLA's offices

While, in general, it doesn't make sense to pick a small town, the location of places like Amherst/Sackville and Truro gives the possibility of commuter trains along with existing transportation networks because of the rails running through the downtowns. These same rail lines run through downtown Halifax and downtown Moncton, and it should be fairly easy to connect a possible (though maybe not necessary) commuter train with the airports by way of bus transfers. Such a service would also connect Moncton directly to Halifax and vice versa, but those are all possibilities that may not be feasible though it would have definite side-benefits.

We all seem to agree the Acadian population would present a challenge, especially the concentration in Northern New Brunswick. I'm not convinced that choosing a predominantly English city as the capital of a bilingual province would present as much of a problem as you worry it would though. As it is, Fredericton is far from the most French or most bilingual city in New Brunswick as far as its citizens goes. Once you leave downtown, the city's street-signage is almost exclusively English, and only the provincial direction/information signs are bilingual throughout the city. It's even more rare to find bilingual business signs in the city.

While the loss of MP's and Senators looks like a downfall, we have to remember that it's not 24/25 members fighting for united causes now. Instead, it's 4/4 fighting for PEI, 10/10 fighting for NB, and 10/11 fighting for NS. The alternative with the loss of senators is 18/18 fighting for a united cause. As for the provincial offices, you're right that it's not necessary to have them all in the same city with fax/internet/intranet for sending documents between offices. It's not like they're delivered on foot now. Another example from NB, the NB energy department is supposedly moving to Saint John, though there's a Fredericton MLA claiming to fight it probably trying to win votes for the next election in 4 years.

By the way, I came across the topic on a Conservative forum... the idea seemed to have been rejected by most people:
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27922

I wouldn't trust that forum to show a balanced opinion poll. I checked it out and even the thread title is "Is it time to force PEI to merge with NS or NB?" and it was started by a guy complaining that PEI is over-represented. The replies are more replying to the forcing of the merger rather than the idea of a merger itself that was willingly entered into.

Based on recent (2006) provinical registered voters, heres how the regional populations break down. I figure the multiplier for 'actual' populations is around 1.34 or so. Obviously the names are debatable but I chose what I thought was a politically correct historical or geopgraphical representation for each region.

1. Madawaska - pop. 94,548
2. Miramachi - pop. 99,206
3. Sunbury - pop. 113,896
4. Fundy - pop. 120,133
5. Tantramar - pop. 154,810
6. Prince Edward - pop. 99,252
7. Cape Breton - pop. 110,668
8. East Scotia - pop. 94,073
9. Cobequid - pop. 94,423
10. West Nova - pop. 84, 771
11. Halifax - pop. 270,196

12. Capitol Region - Charlottetown

I tried to align the regions based on a similar economies and common regional centres. Transportation routes were also considered.

As far as the capitol, i advocate Charlottetown for the following reasons.
- politically it is the safest choice for NB and NS
- the historical beginnings in of our new region of Acadia originated there in the 1860's
- PEI can maintain a sense of importance in what would be a reduced influence over its own affairs. By this I mean that PEI was a whole province of its own but realistically should only contain one region in Acadia. By having the capitol as another district in PEI it can essentially weild more power than its population. This might make a merger politically possible versus impossible.
-the politacal infrastructure is already there and with the proposed regions above I believe that the regional centres can house certain government departments. i.e. to maintain a psuedo decentralized government. This is a typicall Maritime government strategy anyway, for example the geomatics centre is in Amherst for all of Nova Scotia... not in Halifax.

Good work on the regions. I think it might be better to keep the southern half of Cape Breton with the Antigonish/New Glasgow/Guysborough area, and maybe a couple minor revisions elsewhere, but looks good. As far as the capital as its own region, I like that idea. As for the distances to Charlottetown vs Moncton, I don't see it being that much of an issue considering that, especially as far as ferry crossings go, the "time distance" would be relatively similar, and anything that accesses the island from the bridge, it's only a little over an hour more to go to Charlottetown rather than Moncton. With the provincial offices being distributed, Charlottetown would be my first choice because although there'd be more MLA's, I doubt it would be a total of the three provinces. I'm guessing the provincial electoral boundaries would be redrawn and you'd see a reduction of MLA's. And as for the offices, I don't see a major construction project in Charlottetown's future with the decentralization of bureaucrats. Either an expansion on an existing office building, or just one or two new buildings should do the trick.

Official bilingualism ought to be a non-starter for NS and PEI -- agreeing to it would very quickly lead to French language activists going after separate schools, bilingual government proceedings, etc.

This statement by the poster on the conservative forum is misinformed. There are separate French language schools already in several areas of Nova Scotia, and they're probably in existence in PEI as well. As for the bilingual official proceedings and documents, there'd be some extra cost, but only on the provincial level, as nobody's forcing the cities to become officially bilingual (exept, perhaps, in the special case of Saint John). Even the cities becoming officially bilingual would be a bonus and would attract more French people from within and outside the region to the city. It should be seen as an investment rather than as an unnecessary cost. Again, this is why I say don't trust the conservative forum to provide a balanced opinion pool.

I don't think you were being rude, steve, and your point about the Acadian communities is valid, but I would've thought an officially bilingual province would ease their worries though not completely regardless of where the capital is. I don't see them being better represented with the capital in Moncton as opposed to it being in any other city.

But, yeah, though the capital is important, there are other important issues (including bilingualism) to be addressed, and really the only issue that depends on the location of the capital is the location itself and the perception from outside the capital (valid issue raised by steve concerning NNB) and whether it will cause the pulic to reject this union or not.

Sorry for the length, I had to play "catch-up" after being in Halifax for several days without internet access.

[kirjtc2]

Quick-hit notes from the last few posts:

I lurk over on Free Dominion. 80% of the posters there are from Alberta and think we're a bunch of redneck hicks on EI out here. I'm surprised I haven't seen a "should we push Atlantic Canada out to sea and sink it" poll.

The capital of New Brunswick as it is now isn't exactly the world's most bilingual city...it barely has a larger French population than Saint John.

The energy department move to Saint John is a done deal, they started moving in last month. There are rumours of others moving, but I doubt it will happen.

It's interesting that the NS Geomatics Centre in Amherst was brought up, because it (if I'm not mistaken) grew from the ashes of the old LRIS, which was a regional organization based in Amherst for the same reasons someone suggested putting the capital there.

[steve81]

Of course, the thread on Free Dominion is not balanced opinion and was mostly referring to PEI's over-representation. But I posted it because there were a few interesting posts in it, along with interesting concerns, bilingualism being one.

The capital of New Brunswick as it is now isn't exactly the world's most bilingual city...it barely has a larger French population than Saint John.
Which is why Moncton would be seen as an improvement and would be a strong argument to sell a maritime union to French/Acadians. The new province has to be officially bilingual, that point cannot be debated. And I do think it's doable, unlike the poster I quoted from Free Dominion. Quebec would oppose the union if it was not to be bilingual (remember that the creation of a new province requires approval of 7/10 provinces having 50%+ canadian population, in this case including the 3 maritime provinces).

To me, it appears any other capital than Moncton will be a very hard sell for French/Acadians, but I don't mind making different scenarios for now. As for distance, I think it still matters, even in 2007 (even though not as much as in 1867). MLAs have to go in the capital and taxpayers have to pay for travel expenses, so there are costs associated with that.

[steve81]

With the provincial offices being distributed, Charlottetown would be my first choice because although there'd be more MLA's, I doubt it would be a total of the three provinces. I'm guessing the provincial electoral boundaries would be redrawn and you'd see a reduction of MLA's.

I also think the numbers of MLAs will go down, but probably not as much as it should. Keep in mind that the politicians will be voting on this and that they won't want to lose their jobs. The Maritime Union will be hard to sell in PEI since they have too many MLAs, and they [PEI MLAs] would be the ones who would lose the most.

[Canadian Mind]

just as an outsider who's stumbled upon this, its either charlottetown, or those towns that are half on hour away from confederation bridge as your best bet... as for infastructure costs? who cares... It would be a major economic boost to the new provinces economy, which you'll undouptably need as some folks leave to flee the merger (people are idiots).

for those concerned about density in charlottetown, you have an unlimited amount of airspace, build up... the sky isn't the limit.

[Smevo]

Maybe someone else can confirm or dispell this, but I think Charlottetown has a height limit (as do the other two capitals in the region). Infrastructure costs are a big deal because it would be a huge point for opponents to use against us, though it would be nice to not limit the choices for capital to the existing 3. Unfortunately people don't see government construction as investment that creates employment and boosts the economy, but instead see it as expensive and unnecessary in most cases. We'll have our work cut out for us fighting the propoganda that opponents will put out, and we need to be more convincing that this is a beneficial move for the region.

[steve81]

Infrastructure costs depend on how the merger is done, but we'll have to focus on savings (which could hurt us with civil servants though). I guess we could make a few scenarios, including different capitals and different ways of merging the departments and agencies.

I don't see why people would flee the merger, it may happen, but probably wouldn't have a huge impact. On the other side, some people may come back in the Maritimes because of the merger. We also have to focus on economic benefits.

[steve81]

The more I give some thoughts about the idea, the more I think it's going to be hard to realize. As I explained before, this would require a constitutional amendment. But take a look at the number of Senators each province has:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Senate#Senators

New Brunswick and Nova Scotia each have 10 Senators while BC and Alberta have 6 Senators each. Quite disproportionate. This maritime union probably can't be done without Senate reform. Which means Constitutional talks and etc... After the failures of the Meech Lake Accord and the Charlottetown Accord, it's as if no one in this country wants another constitutional round. I'm not saying it can't be done, there will probably be constitutional talks in the future... could the idea of a Maritime Union starts another round? Maybe... All I'm saying for now is that a maritime union is much harder to realize than what it looks like. We still should try to make it happen though.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

What would be done about provincial debts? Nova Scotia's is highest per capita, would NB and PEI not feel like they are subsidizing Nova Scotians heavily if the provincial debts are all rolled into one.

Sorry to sound like such a nag but it seems like the kind of objection people would raise.

[Smevo]

^that is a very valid issue. Somehow we have to convince people of the fact that a stronger economy after the union will offset the inheritance of debt.

Nobody backing this is claiming this will be easy to realize. There are plenty of obstacles and some powerful opposition. But those backing it (including myself) believe it's worth the effort to bring about a stronger Maritime region, one that's seen as it is, rather than a backwards rural hick area with only Halifax, farmers, fishermen, and highlands. We want to do away with the dependency on equalization and the fighting for the table-scraps, and start a revolutionary movement towards a self-sufficient Maritime province that stands up for itself and becomes a "have" province. This is just a step, though a highly influential one, in the right direction and I, for one, refuse to give up and let the region continue to decline a be dependent on equalization and hand-outs.

[skyscraper_1]

What would be done about provincial debts? Nova Scotia's is highest per capita, would NB and PEI not feel like they are subsidizing Nova Scotians heavily if the provincial debts are all rolled into one.

Sorry to sound like such a nag but it seems like the kind of objection people would raise.But on the upside NB and PEI would get to access NS's offshore royalties.

[Smevo]

Another thing concerning the debt is that the lower bureaucratic costs would allow it to be paid down faster while still being able to improve funding for other services (eg- health, highways, eductaion).

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Nobody backing this is claiming this will be easy to realize. There are plenty of obstacles and some powerful opposition. But those backing it (including myself) believe it's worth the effort to bring about a stronger Maritime region, one that's seen as it is, rather than a backwards rural hick area with only Halifax, farmers, fishermen, and highlands. We want to do away with the dependency on equalization and the fighting for the table-scraps, and start a revolutionary movement towards a self-sufficient Maritime province that stands up for itself and becomes a "have" province. This is just a step, though a highly influential one, in the right direction and I, for one, refuse to give up and let the region continue to decline a be dependent on equalization and hand-outs.

Here, here.

I'm on the fence as to union being the best way to solve these problems but it's definetly worth a discussion. At the worst it would come up with ways for the provinces to work together, and ideas for how to grow the economy together.

The Atlantic Gatweay strategy is a perfect example. Why aren't NB and NS working on this together? Three major ports, Saint John, Halifax, and Canso, clearly stand to benefit from a gateway. All three would have to share infrastructure through NB anyways, and improved infrastructure through Quebec/Ontario couldn't hurt either. Work together!!!

[lawsond]

The best choice for the Acadian capital would be Charlottown imo. Halifax could probably bounce back from the loss of government jobs pretty quickly, Moncton doesn't have to many government jobs so it would be essentually uneffected. Freddy would be hit the hardest.


as a nova scotian (transplanted to ontario) i can almost bet the farm that nova scotians will NEVER give up the name nova scotia. it would be an historical cultural crime. it's been NS since the early 1600s with a flag and all. nova scotians have a very strong sense of name - i guess you could call it "brand"...the bluenose, peggy's cove, cape breton, scotland kitsch, tartans it goes on and on.
even THINKING of giving up the name nova scotia makes my NS stomach queasy.
that could never happen unless everyone else agreed to become nova scotians...and what's the chance of that.
and halifax would NEVER relinquish its capital status. ever. ever.
some people in ontario have asked me whether maritime union could happen and i have always had a laugh...not unless everyone became us.
i think new brunswick and p.e.i could merge and call itself something...but nova sctoia?
won't happen unless we get the name and capital.
maybe sounds selfish, but to me, it would be like murdering your granny or tearing down the eiffel tower....to lose that name. just simply criminal and immoral.

[Smevo]

Nova Scotians are definitely not afraid to speak their mind, trust me I know, I grew up in Cape Breton. In general, however, Maritmers (including Nova Scotians) don't seem to be afraid of change if they believe it's for the better. As far as identity, the strongest sense of identity comes from the two groups of Islanders (PEI and CB...it's really an island thing seen everywhere), and they wouldn't have to worry about losing it because they're still on an island whose name woudn't be taken away since, as islands, they are geographic entities that are identified using their geographic names. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia both have a strong sense of identity as well, but with a name as rooted in the history of the area as "Acadia" is, I think they'd be pretty open to it. Talking amongst people I know (from every walk of life imaginable in the area), the initial reaction is "are you nuts?" or "it will never happen" until the idea's explained a little more, then it changes to, "I'd go for that." I have yet to have someone, in person, tell me they would be against it, though I'm not foolish enough to think there isn't opposition out there.

[lawsond]

^^^

Mainland Nova Scotia has a humungous sense of itself and the Nova Scotia "brand".
Ask any Haligonian.
Or go to the South Shore and ask if they'd be willing to give up their "Nova Scotian-ness"
Or the valley.

[someone123]

At one point, the whole region was referred to as Nova Scotia and was one colony. It would be a pretty good name for a united Maritime province, and of course referring to the region under one name does not mean that the various parts cease to exist. Cape Breton is Cape Breton despite being a part of Nova Scotia.

It makes sense considering the fact that many states make up New England.

[skyscraper_1]

^^^

Mainland Nova Scotia has a humungous sense of itself and the Nova Scotia "brand".
Ask any Haligonian.
Or go to the South Shore and ask if they'd be willing to give up their "Nova Scotian-ness"
Or the valley.I am from the valley and I am certainly a proud Nova Scotian at heart, but for the greater good of the region I support a stronger united province. Halifax does benefit from being the capital of Nova Scotia, public service jobs provide a lot of money to the city. But do we need them all to be in Halifax? Unlikely - Halifax suffered more then any other city in the country during the great federal cuts of the 90's, yet the unemployment rate in the city continued to drop.

[steve81]

At one point, the whole region was referred to as Nova Scotia and was one colony. It would be a pretty good name for a united Maritime province, and of course referring to the region under one name does not mean that the various parts cease to exist. Cape Breton is Cape Breton despite being a part of Nova Scotia.

It makes sense considering the fact that many states make up New England.

The region was referred as Acadia at the time of French colonization, before it was amalgamated into a single British colony named Nova Scotia. The name Nova Scotia would be seen as Nova Scotia taking over the other two provinces... it would not be the creation of a new province, it would be NB and PEI joining NS.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Acadia_1754.png/800px-Acadia_1754.png

[steve81]

I am from the valley and I am certainly a proud Nova Scotian at heart, but for the greater good of the region I support a stronger united province. Halifax does benefit from being the capital of Nova Scotia, public service jobs provide a lot of money to the city. But do we need them all to be in Halifax? Unlikely - Halifax suffered more then any other city in the country during the great federal cuts of the 90's, yet the unemployment rate in the city continued to drop.

The fear of government lost jobs is something we'll have to deal with. It's not like we advocate moving all government jobs from the 3 capitals to a new capital. It wouldn't make sense. Of course some government jobs will move, but not all of them. The point is to save money by merging 3 governments though, so there will be less civil servants at a later point, but the number of civil servants could go down gradually by attrition. The transition would also provide some work for them for a few years. In the end we would all benefit from this.

[kwajo]

some people in ontario have asked me whether maritime union could happen and i have always had a laugh...not unless everyone became us.
i think new brunswick and p.e.i could merge and call itself something...but nova sctoia?
won't happen unless we get the name and capital.
maybe sounds selfish, but to me, it would be like murdering your granny or tearing down the eiffel tower....to lose that name. just simply criminal and immoral.
I disagree, there are a great many of us New Brunswickers that have just as much pride and sense of being as Nova Scotians, I know I wouldn't give up my identity of a Saint Johner or a Bay of Fundy fog-hound for all the gold on Earth. (then again, I would fight to the death to defend the Maritimes, so maybe I'm just uber-patriotic :P)

[lawsond]

In 1621 Acadia was renamed Nova Scotia by William Alexander, who had been granted the territory by James VI/I on September 10, 1621. His attempts to colonize the region were a failure, but his royal charter gave Nova Scotia its name, coat-of-arms, and flag.

nova scotia has had its name and flag since 1621.
the name acadia was given to it in 1605 by france but only lasted officially for about 15 years.
it's been nova scotia for just under 400 years - plus or minus the back and forth battles with france. not many places in the world (including the united states and great britain) have had their identity that long.
and our flag is far older than either Britain, United States, France, Italy, Russia, China you-name-it.
it is one of the oldest flags in the world.
i can see the maritimes co-operating as the New England states do.
but ask a person from Massachusetts if they would give up their name and merge with Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine.
can't see it.

[kwajo]

how do you figure your flag is older than Britain's when it is based on the St. Andrews cross?

I'm not arguing that Nova Scotia is special, all the Maritime provinces are, but you can't just assume Nova Scotia is the one that would disagree with a union because of identity when there are other regions that have long standing identities as well.

[Smevo]

There is not a chance in hell that New Brunswick and PEI would agree to a union called Nova Scotia. That's even more of a deal killer than Halifax being the capital. It isn't a take-over, it's a union of cooperation. Hence, a new name would have to be chosen. It could be any number of things, but we're just using Acadia as a temporary name because it would probably be the most widely accepted of any that have been thrown out so far.

[Wishblade]

There is not a chance in hell that New Brunswick and PEI would agree to a union called Nova Scotia. That's even more of a deal killer than Halifax being the capital. It isn't a take-over, it's a union of cooperation. Hence, a new name would have to be chosen. It could be any number of things, but we're just using Acadia as a temporary name because it would probably be the most widely accepted of any that have been thrown out so far.

I realize that NB or PEI wouldnt go for the name Nova Scotia, but in reality it shouldnt be that way as at one time the entire region was actually Nova Scotia. It's kind of a shame really.

But because of this, I agree that Acadia would be the best and most widely accepted name.

[ErickMontreal]

Acadia is a good one or just Atlantic United provinces should be ok. Everyone within Canada already is accustomed with this name.

I just worry about the impacts on the relationship could have this kind of debate between provinces that get involved in the process.

Take a look West in Quebec, both referendum have had deep after-effects

[steve81]

The name can't contain "United Provinces" as it will be only one province in the end. As for the referendums in Quebec, they were about separation, not union. The separatist threat in Quebec affected the economy because of the uncertainty it brought, this should not be a problem with the project of a maritime union as it would actually be a good move for the economy.

[ErickMontreal]

The name can't contain "United Provinces" as it will be only one province in the end. As for the referendums in Quebec, they were about separation, not union. The separatist threat in Quebec affected the economy because of the uncertainty it brought, this should not be a problem with the project of a maritime union as it would actually be a good move for the economy.

Its true wheter at the end of the debate all provinces get a consensus. If it`s not the case this issue could create some divisions during the process between provinces and within the population as well. The impact level could be proportional with the level of division between respective positions that will be involved.