Albany is now.. downstate?

[kznyc2k]

Albany plunges toward south


The Capital Region is no longer in upstate New York.

As Gov. Eliot Spitzer attempts to the upstate economy, the boundary lines between upstate and downstate have been redrawn.

Empire State Development Corp. has two new chairmen, one based in Buffalo, who will handle upstate initiatives, and the other based in New York City, who will handle downstate.

An ESDC spokesman said the Hudson Valley and the Capital Region from Saratoga Springs south will now be part of the downstate region, while everything west of Schenectady and north of Saratoga will be upstate.

"The challenges and opportunities in Albany are more similar to the challenges and opportunities of the Hudson Valley, Long Island and New York City," said spokesman A.J. Carter.

Cities such as Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo have been more dependent on manufacturing and face a different set of challenges and opportunities, he said.

If Albany is now downstate, we wondered, can it be long before Bloomingdale's, Whole Foods and Trader Joe's set up shop here?


OK kiddies, discuss..

[Sulley]

As much as people in Buffalo hate Albany, I guess they just lumped it in with New York City.

[F11Roch]

I'm not sure that I agree with lumping Albany with downstate. Yes, unlike the rest of upstate NY, its economy is on the upswing. But I don't necessarily think the same economic development strategies that will work for NYC and Long Island will work with Albany. It will be interesting to see how it works out or if it will even make a difference at all.

[Kevin]

The Albany area's growth rate hasn't slowed much in the last 35 years, while many metropolitan areas to the west have lost population. It makes sense for the State to focus on the areas that have been left behind. Especially the Syracuse Metropolitan area and the Buffalo area.

Population Change 1970 - 2005

Albany-Schenectady-Troy, NY MSA
1970.... 746,844
2005.... 848,879

Rochester, NY MSA
1970.... 961,516
2005.... 1,039,028

Buffalo, NY MSA
1970.... 1,349,211
2005.... 1,147,711

Syracuse, NY MSA
1970.... 636,596
2005.... 651,763

http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm00/

What these statistics don't show for Syracuse is that in the last 15 years, the Syracuse Metropolitan area has lost 25,000 in population.

[gripja]

As far as NYC is concerned everything north of The Bronx is Upstate. I once overheard someone on the subway say that they were headed Upstate to the Bronx -- lol. I chalked that one up to stupidity tho.

I personally think that Upstate starts once you have to start paying money to drive on the Thruway. So I guess thats about Harriman. Thats the difference to me: Upstate pays to drive on the Thruway and Downstate pays to drive on or over everything else. Yea there are a few exceptions over in the Buffalo area.

Hmmm according to my rules maybe The Buffalo/NF area should be lumped in with Downstate....

[bpg88]

It's really a transition area that doesn't fall into either category, but generally I find that Albany has more in common with the downstate Hudson Valley region than it does it's western counterparts. Calling it "downstate" is still inaccurate, but creating a separate region dubbed "the Hudson Valley" would make more sense to me.

[whit_x]

Personally, I've always used I-84, or at least Middletown as the barrier between Upstate and Downstate.

[Canasian]

^^^^^
I've heard that too, but I consider wher I live (Orange County), and Putnam and Westchester upstate. Even my friends from Katonah and Somers in Westchester, (whom some live in Brookyln), now consider Westchester "upstate".

[buffalo716]

As far as NYC is concerned everything north of The Bronx is Upstate. I once overheard someone on the subway say that they were headed Upstate to the Bronx -- lol. I chalked that one up to stupidity tho.

I personally think that Upstate starts once you have to start paying money to drive on the Thruway. So I guess thats about Harriman. Thats the difference to me: Upstate pays to drive on the Thruway and Downstate pays to drive on or over everything else. Yea there are a few exceptions over in the Buffalo area.

Hmmm according to my rules maybe The Buffalo/NF area should be lumped in with Downstate....

You are correct, I too also believe Upstate starts as soon as you cross into Westchester. My friends from Westchester consider themselves upstaters because they live on the mainland of NYS, not NYC or LI.

[kznyc2k]

I personally think Westchester is still a part of downstate. Yonkers, New Rochelle, White Plains.. they still have enough development (and right angled street grids..) to make them feel very much like a part of "the city." So I guess I-287 could be considered the barrier.

And to be on point with the article, I grew up in Columbia County (north of Dutchess Co, SE of Albany Co) and in the last 5-10 years we've seen a biiig influx of Manhattanites buying up all the old mansions for outrageous sums, not to mention make little enclaves for themselves in some of the smaller cities (Hudson for example) and in turn raise the land value, and this is by no means specific to my rural Hudson Valley county only. So while it's silly to consider Albany "downstate," the basis they go on to reach that conclusion (economic conditions) is definitely not off.

[ctman987]

I go to school in NYC with a lot of New Yorkers and most of them consider areas north of Yonkers including Westchester and Rockland counties as "upstate."

Now my personal worries are that if Albany is clumped into a category with NYC its problems will be overlooked because of NYC.

[TomAuch]

^^^^^
I've heard that too, but I consider wher I live (Orange County), and Putnam and Westchester upstate. Even my friends from Katonah and Somers in Westchester, (whom some live in Brookyln), now consider Westchester "upstate".

I live in the same region as you. No way in hell are Westchester, Putnam and Orange "upstate." People in Buffalo and Syracuse are worlds apart from the Hudson Valley, culturally-speaking. Also, People in Somers and Katonah fall within the Metro North lines, which is what I use to separate upstate from downstate. If you county has a Metro North line, then it's downstate (or at least part of it is...northern Dutchess is an exception.)

[TomAuch]

You are correct, I too also believe Upstate starts as soon as you cross into Westchester. My friends from Westchester consider themselves upstaters because they live on the mainland of NYS, not NYC or LI.

By that standard, the Bronx should be lumped in with upstate.

[TomAuch]

I personally think Westchester is still a part of downstate. Yonkers, New Rochelle, White Plains.. they still have enough development (and right angled street grids..) to make them feel very much like a part of "the city." So I guess I-287 could be considered the barrier.

And to be on point with the article, I grew up in Columbia County (north of Dutchess Co, SE of Albany Co) and in the last 5-10 years we've seen a biiig influx of Manhattanites buying up all the old mansions for outrageous sums, not to mention make little enclaves for themselves in some of the smaller cities (Hudson for example) and in turn raise the land value, and this is by no means specific to my rural Hudson Valley county only. So while it's silly to consider Albany "downstate," the basis they go on to reach that conclusion (economic conditions) is definitely not off.

At least you don't live in Westchester, where it's impossible to buy a decent house for half a million. With that money you'll be lucky to get a 1960's ranch house that "needs some work."

[Downtown Bolivar]

Personally this is another reason for WNYer's to politically resent the Hudson River Valley from Albany to New York City. Over a beer, a lot of folks in WNY share how they believe that we'd better off as a separate state--Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica. I don't know though--does this kind of Upstate-Downstate division now including greater Albany area fuel this speculation? Spitzer should only do this if it benefits Western and Central NY. If the econmies of each region continue on their current trend--Spitzer will become the latest governer to promise struggling areas new life without delivering--which is what many people cynically expect anyway.

[Downtown Bolivar]

At least you don't live in Westchester, where it's impossible to buy a decent house for half a million. With that money you'll be lucky to get a 1960's ranch house that "needs some work."

Geez--you can buy a nice Victorian here in the Southern Tier for under $100,000 in many places. In fact if anyone on the East Coast would like some business opportunities there's a huge portfolio of nice real estate including hotels, storefronts, etc. for cheap in a village that has real small town charm. When I say cheap I mean all under 100 grand.

[Visiteur]

Personally, I always figured everything Poughkeepsie south was downstate, and from there, north to the capital region was midstate, and everything beyond that was upstate.

But, I grew up north of Syracuse, so my impressions are skewed anyway.;)

[Lost Island]

I don't think Spitzer's little decree is going to change anybody's personal perceptions of upstate/downstate.

As to "upstate", anything above Westchester and Rockland, I figured. People here don't seem to say "upstate Buffalo" as they do "upstate Poughkeepsie", or Albany. Why, I don't know.

[JManc]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/82/Map-upstate-ny.png

[Kroy Wen]

I like this breakdown best:
http://www.ogs.state.ny.us/realEstate/common/images/counties.gif

[Kevin]

^Central New York is wrong. Binghamton is in the Southern Tier, NOT Central New York.

This map is more accurate

http://criminaljustice.state.ny.us/graphics/crmtrnd01/ct_006.gif

Generally,this map shows what people in their own regions call where they live.

[Kroy Wen]

Interesting, thanks! I've always wondered what was meant by 'southern tier';)

[JManc]

^Central New York is wrong. Binghamton is in the Southern Tier, NOT Central New York.

This map is more accurate

http://criminaljustice.state.ny.us/graphics/crmtrnd01/ct_006.gif

Generally,this map shows what people in their own regions call where they live.

the mohawk valley is often lumped together with central new york as well but yeah, that is accurate.

[Kroy Wen]

hold up- people in Rochester don't think of themselves as in 'the finger lakes'.

My grandparents had a farm in Orleans County, and they always referred to their region as the 'Northern Tier'- or 'Ontario/Niagara Ridge'. The Finger Lakes are hours away.:shrug:

[Kevin]

^Good Point.

The Rochester metro calls itself the Finger Lakes region more often than you think. Even though most people just say "Western New York" But when Rochester wants to separate itself from Buffalo, they call themselves the Finger Lakes Region. Since Orleans County is in Rochester's metro, Orleans County is part of the "Finger Lakes" by default. Same with Buffalo, most of the time it's just Western NY, but sometimes Buffalo calls itself the Niagara Frontier.

But, I agree though. Syracuse...Onondaga County is much closer to the Finger Lakes than Orleans county. In fact, two "Finger Lakes" Skaneatleates and Otisco Lakes are in Onondaga County. So Rochester's claim on the "Finger Lakes" isn't very accurate. But since the Finger Lakes are a beautiful region, Rochester leadership was smart enough to realize that claiming it for themselves can only be good for Rochester's image.

[gripja]

Cool pic of the Finger Lakes, you can see some of the smaller lakes are just south of Rochester.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/Images/FingerLakes_ISS010E09366.jpg

[Kroy Wen]

Kevin and gripja- love the image and information!

It's really something, this state. I've lived most of my life in NYC, never upstate, but those are my roots. Medina in Orleans County is where my grandparents had a farm (Ridge Road). Perhaps I mythologize it, but I haven't seen it since I was a child. I remember the canal, Ted's White Hots and 'the tank' (the municipal watertank was adjacent to the farm on the ridge).

One of my favorite memories is Letchworth Park- but that was a long drive and a long time ago.;)

So perhaps 'hours' weren't as long as I remember....

[whit_x]

I do agree about Ithaca's placement. Although their high school teams are in Section 4 (Elmira and Binghamton area) and their TV stations are from Syracuse and Binghamton/Elmira, Ithaca is definitely in the Finger Lakes.

[CBBC]

^Central New York is wrong. Binghamton is in the Southern Tier, NOT Central New York.

This map is more accurate

http://criminaljustice.state.ny.us/graphics/crmtrnd01/ct_006.gif

Generally,this map shows what people in their own regions call where they live.

funny map. lol

[CBBC]

While both Buffalo and Syracuse have had the same metro areas for years, Rochester was given a healthy expansion by allowing it to claim 5 counties as its metro...very wrong. Buffalo's metro only gets Niagara and Erie county, yet Genesee is split nearly 50/50 as well as Orleans.

I'm not going to deny Buffalo's population drain, but Rochester, Syracuse and Albany all have this still today...Albany is still taking a loss but they make up for it someplace else in the metro. Rochester is going to fall below 200,000 soon and they are seeing the metro on pace to go past Buffalo which is now at 280,000? lol gimme a break.

just to clear up the map above...

Erie, Niagara, Genesee, Orleans, Wyoming and Chatauqua Cattaraugus(sp) counties are Western NY

thats just a goofy map...wow. :koko:

[NYRY85]

Personally this is another reason for WNYer's to politically resent the Hudson River Valley from Albany to New York City. Over a beer, a lot of folks in WNY share how they believe that we'd better off as a separate state--Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica.

Dont do that to Utica, please. Personally I make the split between Syracuse and Utica. For reasons purely based on geographical placement, Utica is 3 hours from both Buffalo and NYC, and geographically closer to NYC.

[JManc]

utica is tied syracuse more than any other city because syracuse is the closest "big city" to utica and has a alot of government agencies/ businesses than uticans need but don't have of their own. the airport as well...i always fly into SYR.

[NYRY85]

albany has southwest thats my airport when in utica. syracuse is one of the dirtiest cities ive ever been to, and everytime i go there i get involved in some sort of bullshit like thugs and white trash. i went to a club last year and these pricks broke into my friends car, stole a cell phone, we called it and met them in a price chopper parking lot and got it back after getting harrassed. i get more shit in that city than anywhere else, even nyc.

[gripja]

Thats pretty funny that someone would put down Syracuse in favor of Utica. I'm mean Syracuse definitely aint no prize but Utica is dead. Out of all the Upstate areas Utica has to have the worst economy. I don't think that Downstate would fight to include Utica into it.

[NYRY85]

youd be surprised how culturally tied Utica is with NYC. a significant percentage are NYC transplants.

[JManc]

buffalo looks at utica and realizes...things could be worse. :laugh:

[NYRY85]

buffalo makes me cringe.

[Kevin]

I wish I could remember the book that was published in the 1950s that divided the US into regions, NOT using State lines. Well, it had a map that had the Great Lakes Region starting between Utica and Syracuse. Therefore, Utica was part of the North East Coast region and Syracuse was part of the Great Lakes Region. I was shocked when I first saw the map and over the years, that dividing line seems to make more and more sense.

I'm finding out that Utica looks toward the East Coast, while Syracuse is it's own city that is more self contained. So there could be more to that dividing line between Syracuse and Utica than most seem to realize.

[JManc]

yeah, architecturally and culturally, utica and eastern NYS is very similar to new england. although, utica, unlike any other city upstate..."acts" like a miniature new york city for whatever reason.

edit: :laugh: funny entry about upstate NY in urban dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Upstate+New+York

[NYRY85]

if anytihng Utica belongs in New England. Its the last settlement that has that type of feel as you head west. What brings the NYCness is all the guineas wearin them Yankee hats and Italian flag decals on their cars, HAHAHAH. "I says yea? He says yeaaaaa."

nah yooo, but seriously though, ive said it over and over, but youll find alot of ppl in Utica originally from NYC, and theres only 60k there.

Utica and Syracuse are less than an hour but they technically can be divided geographically, and geographically only.

[NYRY85]

although, utica, unlike any other city upstate..."acts" like a miniature new york city for whatever reason.

edit: :laugh: funny entry about upstate NY in urban dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Upstate+New+York

the reasoning for this is the large amount of relocated NYCers. take out the skyscrapers and subway which are the two most prominent tihngs about NYC and you have very similar culture and attitude among both. Uticans think who the hell they are and so do NYers. The diversity, the lingo matches.

Sometihng else ive noticed is that my roommates from Jersey say wicked alot. Whats with that? I thought it was only a NE thing.

[JManc]

i always thought of it more as utica tries to emulate new york city rather than there actually be a cultural connection the two. most upstate cities are big enough to have their own identities where as utica is just too small but still big enough to need one. i honestly don't know very many people in utica with strong family ties to NYC.

however, a good chunk of utica's black population does have ties to places like the bronx and queens.

[NYRY85]

puerto ricans and dominicans.

i can make a list of ppl with ties but ill spare everyone.

[JManc]

yeah, that's true.

[SSLL]

Interesting. I think the fact that Albany is doing well economically is enough reason to separate it. Could there be a third tier? Upstate, downstate, and the City?

[kznyc2k]

Three tiers.. that makes a lot of sense to me. The "downstate" region would go from wherever you decide "the city" ends (I say once you're north of White Plains) up to Saratoga Springs/Glens Falls.

[NYRY85]

yeah, that's true.

even the Asians.