Should there be a High Speed Rail link from Calgary to Edmonton?

[Boris2k7]

^ I agree, and I would like to know about those Amtrak trains as well.

Here's a question to the Edmonton forumers. Say there is a downtown Edmonton station. Now, not knowing my birth city quite as well as my home city, I would like to know where you would see that station ending up, and what kind of amenities it could bring to downtown Edmonton. For Calgary, our intermodal station is in the Centre City plan and would be located along the train tracks at 2nd Street, just across 9th Ave from Banker's hall. The area is mostly offices, but there are hotels only a couple blocks away, including the Germain/Grenville which should be U/C sometime this year.

[Xelebes]

Looking at European HSR, those stations are huge. Stationlands?

[JerryK]

Makes you kinda dumb if you've had to re-read it? I'd certainly take a train to Calgary, and I know alot of people would too. Doesn't make this viable yet, but like its been stated many times, plan for it now, built it a little later. If you've read a thing many people here have said, this would be something SHOULD BE BUILT PRIVATELY. But of course, you've only re-read this twice. Go have another go at it. This is about the dumbest post I've ever read. (and yes, I've re-read it a few times now, just to make sure it is dumb) Hey feepa, Makes you kinda dumb if you've had to re-read it? Are you just young or just stupid, don't ever throw down dumb ass comments like that lol. I reread and analyze all material I read, every day, and make alot of money at it, and I know (You Don't) Please Get Educated:jester:

Remember! things you have just said on this forum, I will!!!!!!! Never disrespect me or anyone................... (feepa)

[KrisYYC]

The Amtrak Acela (designed by Bombardier) runs at speeds anywhere from 120km/h to 235km/h depending on the track.

I agree with Boris on this one. We shouldn't just wait until other cities do it, especially other North American cities. Calgary used to be ahead of the game with these types of things and other cities looked up to us. We were actually PROGGRESIVE and not reactionary. Looking at the state of most other North American cities.... well hardly something I'd want Calgary to emulate.

Kris

[KrisYYC]

Hey feepa, Makes you kinda dumb if you've had to re-read it? Are you just young or just stupid, don't ever throw down dumb ass comments like that lol. I reread and analyze all material I read, every day, and make alot of money at it, and I know (You Don't) Please Get Educated:jester:

Remember! things you have just said on this forum, I will!!!!!!! Never disrespect me or anyone................... (feepa)

Maybe you should be re-reading your own material. With such poor grammar and spelling I can barely understand what you're trying to write.

Kris

[JerryK]

Fact of the matter is that HSR "IS NOT SUSTAINABLE" in this province. For the love of god Alberta is not a populated province in a sparsely populated country. We have no idea what 'densely populated' areas are.

Enough of the pipe dreams now. Yes, common sense, and Intellect prevail, thank you.:sly:

[JerryK]

Maybe you should be re-reading your own material. With such poor grammar and spelling I can barely understand what you're trying to write.

Kris Wow!!!! if that is throwing you off, I would hate to see you deal with real problems:haha: Wow, I would hate to see you take a order at McDonalds. Wait, I think u did take my order. Beat it, lol lol. Who are you people!?

[freeweed]

Maybe you should be re-reading your own material. With such poor grammar and spelling I can barely understand what you're trying to write.

Kris

Yeah, I'm with you on that one.

The sad part is, 10 years ago this would have been a classic case of some 13 year old who just got AOL. These days, it's just as likely s/he's a 40 year old. It's become acceptable to talk like that, and the burden now falls on us to understand it. Notice the use of the mispelled "u" in the rebuttal. Once a sign of illiteracy, now gets met with "well, u should b smrt enuff to kno wut I meen LOL". And we're the stupid ones. :haha:

[korinsensei]

wow.
thoughts from afar...

No need to step on CMD's feet here, love ya bud ;)

I believe the populations densities of both cities are actually quite ideal for such a link as long as:

1) The potential for inter city commuter travel is there for the long term due to connected and interlinking industry (i.e OIL), I think we can all agree that is there...please tell me that Vancouver-Seattle or Mon-Tor or NY-PHI have such inter related business, not to mention the prospect of solidifying the ROW..in the NE USA or Canada forget about it, much more difficult to purchase!

2) The cities are set enough apart that a high speed link makes it feasible and practical for such a link. i.e. Airports and flights make less sense for commuting by air as apposed to jumping on a rail link that will take you to the other cities center in 2 hours. Plus all the added competition between the two cities INt'L cities for airlines and their flights I think they would complement each other and add the benefit of competition to both markets (which IMHO will spur growth and competency for both airports in the longer run).

3) There can be two speed and routes of trains; one that does all the commuting. i.e B Route: 1EDMCentral-2EDM(YEG)-3Ponoka (wetaskiwin stop)-4Red Deer-5Olds-6CGY(YYC)- 7CGY-CENTR local high speed, A Route:and 1EDM Cntrl- 2EDM-YEG 3Red Deer-4CGYYYC-5CALG-Central

4) Both lines are extend-able to Jasper/Banff Ft. Mcmurray, And Southern AB Leth/ Montana (maybe pushing it here..") in broader plans

Think big Alberta. you have the money, you have the balls, and I swear to god if you study the economics and the greater potential you will see at minimum the benefit of having a ROW--- CGY-Banff--Jasper-EDM and the potential for tourism and commuting for EDM-CGY not to mention the better logistics of Ft. Mc-EDM-CGY-USA..?

Any thoughts...:D

[CMD UW]

/\ The only way we are going to see travel by rail increase in North America is when oil / gas prices reach a point where the majority of commuters see rail as a cheaper alternative.

For now, the numbers don't add up. My point is that if this type of travel was so viable, the private sector would have figured it out and capitalized on it.

[ScottFromCalgary]

Hey feepa, Makes you kinda dumb if you've had to re-read it? Are you just young or just stupid, don't ever throw down dumb ass comments like that lol. I reread and analyze all material I read, every day, and make alot of money at it, and I know (You Don't) Please Get Educated:jester:

Remember! things you have just said on this forum, I will!!!!!!! Never disrespect me or anyone................... (feepa)

Wow!!!! if that is throwing you off, I would hate to see you deal with real problems:haha: Wow, I would hate to see you take a order at McDonalds. Wait, I think u did take my order. Beat it, lol lol. Who are you people!?

I love the way this guy comes off as half-retarded and still manages to sound ridiculously condescending. I especially enjoy his claim that we are the stupid ones, as he "reread and analyze all material I read, every day, and make alot of money at it" (sic) and then directs us to "Please Get Educated". Further, since we cannot appreciate his grammar or syntax, we must be so dumb that we work at McDonalds. Now it is time for the knockout punch - "beat it, lol lol" (sic). Very impressive.:(

P.S. Remember! things you have just said on this forum, I will!!!!!!! Never disrespect me or anyone................... (JerryK)

[walli]

/\ The only way we are going to see travel by rail increase in North America is when oil / gas prices reach a point where the majority of commuters see rail as a cheaper alternative.

I never thought of that before ... there must be an environmental benefit for putting in a train. Could that be quantified over a ten or twenty year period please? May be able to justify some level of provincial and/or federal funding based on this.

Recognizing there are a number of deniers about how much impact Alberta has on global warming, I think we can all at least agree that improvement is possible.

There is also one other thing that people may not have considered. People are basing train usage on current travel numbers and industry links. Fact is, the train could facilitate a significant increase of travel, and even introduce new business models.

As a small example, sports fans would be more likely to travel for away games (and we could justify bigger and/or better facilities based on that). As an bigger example, some may recall that there was talk of a possible joint Edmonton / Calgary Summer Olympics bid. Having the train would allow for serious consideration for things like that. It would actually allow Calgary and Edmonton to be treated as a virtual single metropolitan area, and there is major potential in this concept. Think about potential for landing larger arts centres, galleries or museums as an example. A major league soccer team? Stampede attendance would go up, and same for things in Edmonton. I'd consider going to their fringe festival if I could take the train in the morning, and come back on the red-eye train. All this much easier with 2.5m people in the 'virtual' metropolitan area, yes? Much easier for the university kids, and may even allow for different university partnerships. I can go on and on ...

[Distill3d]

As a small example, sports fans would be more likely to travel for away games (and we could justify bigger and/or better facilities based on that). As an bigger example, some may recall that there was talk of a possible joint Edmonton / Calgary Summer Olympics bid. Having the train would allow for serious consideration for things like that. It would actually allow Calgary and Edmonton to be treated as a virtual single metropolitan area, and there is major potential in this concept. Think about potential for landing larger arts centres, galleries or museums as an example. A major league soccer team? Stampede attendance would go up, and same for things in Edmonton. I'd consider going to their fringe festival if I could take the train in the morning, and come back on the red-eye train. All this much easier with 2.5m people in the 'virtual' metropolitan area, yes? Much easier for the university kids, and may even allow for different university partnerships. I can go on and on ...

chirst, i love that idea...

and to think that i was only using my own selfish reasons for affordable housing in Edmonton, and better paying jobs in Calgary to justify an HSR link

[freeweed]

I'd LOVE a train like that to go see an Oilers game. I'd go to easily a dozen every year if I could be home in 60-90 minutes (or whatever). Driving home at 11pm really sucks. Plus, those who like to booze it up during a game could do it without worrying about driving.

Of course, both teams sell out every game, so for right now it's not exactly a realistic dream. :(

Other than that, though, it's just too easy to take a car. Maybe if the train had berths for cars (like the chunnel trains do)...?

[Mikemike]

I like the idea of high speed rail. Here's some thoughts for:

1. At current population growth rates (2001-2006), By 2036 edmonton will be 1.75m and calgary will be about 2.1m. It looks a lot better with those numbers. Before anyone says that I'm taking growth from a boom and projecting it, that's not quite true. There's only 1 year of boom in those 5 years.

2. If someone started seriously planning now, it would take close to a decade before the first train runs. Things will change in those 10 years. I forsee more LRT and more LRT use in both cities. I forsee the QEII being insanely busy, and I see another 15,000plus downtown dwellers in each city.

3. A high speed rail line could see multiple services. For instance, a downtown to downtown no-stop express, a milk run and a 5 stop ed,ed,red, cal,cal mid service. Sections of the rail could also be used by airport express trains.

4. HSR could be built in phases. The expensive ends in the cities could wait, and in the interim use LRT or budget electrified freight track.

5. While HSR would never pay for the full initial investment, it never does, even in the highly touted denser european cities.

6. As for the refrain that 'if Toronto-Montreal or whatever can't have HSR than we can't even consider it', we have a much simpler situation than almost all others. We have little development inbetween the end nodes, and we have relatively flat ground, But the kicker is that we are within a single province with "disposable income". Look at the montreal-toronto route. Can you imagine the difficulty splitting costs? 80% of the route is within Ontario, but the two cities would be equal beneficiaries. The only similar situation is in texas, and there cities are sprawlier and less suited for transit.

7. Someone noted that HSR in alberta is unsustainable. I disagree. HSR is more environmentally sustainable than cars, or busses, or airplanes, and after the initial, admittedly considerable, capital cost, HSR would be fiscally sustainable (ie. self sustaining). The CPR van Horne study is reasonable, and CPR is willing to bet that it would be, by running HSR services with no operating subsidy.
How is this 'unsustainable'?

[feepa]

chirst, i love that idea...

and to think that i was only using my own selfish reasons for affordable housing in Edmonton, and better paying jobs in Calgary to justify an HSR link

Affordable housing in Edmonton? You realize Edmonton is not yet quite as expensive - but start to catch up now to Calgary?

On another note... completely separate and maybe slightly OT, but I was doing a little bit of surfing/research on HSR in Alberta and came across this interesting site called Atlas of Alberta Railways (http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/)

[chenmau]

An Alberta HSR WILL become economically viable (without government support) at some point in the future. The question is when, and that depends solely on the price of energy. As soon as energy costs hit some unknown magical number, people will begin reconsidering the costs of every trip they take, and they will abandon their cars in droves for mass transport. I hope that day comes sooner rather than later. I also hope that a project such as this moves ahead long before that day arrives.

[feepa]

An Alberta HSR WILL become economically viable (without government support) at some point in the future. The question is when, and that depends solely on the price of energy. As soon as energy costs hit some unknown magical number, people will begin reconsidering the costs of every trip they take, and they will abandon their cars in droves for mass transport. I hope that day comes sooner rather than later. I also hope that a project such as this moves ahead long before that day arrives.
I agree. if we wait till the price of energy becomes super high, then it will be really expensive to construct.

[chenmau]

and to think that i was only using my own selfish reasons for affordable housing in Edmonton, and better paying jobs in Calgary to justify an HSR link

A project such as this would only serve to balance the housing costs in the two cities.

[Danma]

A couple points.

A lot of people have discussed the advantages/disadvantages of downtown-to-downtown versus multiple stops in between. If you look, say, at the Shinkansen, there are three levels of service: The Kodama which stops at every station between Tokyo and Osaka, so something like 10 stops. There's the Hikari, which stops only at the major points in between, only 4 stops in between, and then the express Nozomi which is non-stop. They all run on the same sets of tracks and in conjuction with each other. I think that theoretically our system could similarly support such service levels.

JerryK, you made two objections: the first, that it won't be faster than flying, and two: that if it was possible it would have already been done in other north american systems.

Addressing the first point, having ridden a number of high-speed systems, I was easily able to show up 10-15 minutes before my train left, sat down and relaxed for five minutes before the train left. The security needs are less, the organization is less, no boarding on/off since you just go onto the platform and find your seat, no passport checks, etc... it's simply much faster. Add in the time for taxi or bus to/from the respective airports and it's easily much much faster.

Addressing your second point, many places in the states DO have some sort of high-speed rail service. Amtrak runs one between DC and Boston, for example. As the technology costs drop these sorts of technologies do become cheaper. A 220km/hr train is not high-tech anymore, given the Shinkansen was that fast back in 1964.

Finally, just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean squat. Maybe the time is now?

[jawagord]

I'd LOVE a train like that to go see an Oilers game. I'd go to easily a dozen every year if I could be home in 60-90 minutes (or whatever). Driving home at 11pm really sucks. Plus, those who like to booze it up during a game could do it without worrying about driving.

Of course, both teams sell out every game, so for right now it's not exactly a realistic dream. :(

Other than that, though, it's just too easy to take a car. Maybe if the train had berths for cars (like the chunnel trains do)...?

Reality check. A oneway ticket for a 90 minute ride on the Shinkansen currently costs about $90 Canadian. So how many people will pay a $180 dollars for return train ticket + all the other costs to go see an Oilers or Flames game?

At say $5 Billion to build a HSR/(20 yearsx365 DaysX$100 a trip), we would need something like 7000 trips per day for 20 years just to break even.

[Nutterbug]

Reality check. A oneway ticket for a 90 minute ride on the Shinkansen currently costs about $90 Canadian. So how many people will pay a $180 dollars for return train ticket + all the other costs to go see an Oilers or Flames game?

At say $5 Billion to build a HSR/(20 yearsx365 DaysX$100 a trip), we would need something like 7000 trips per day for 20 years just to break even.

^ What about number of passengers per trip?

[mersar]

Well if you look at something like the 700T that they are using in Taiwan, its ~1000 passengers per train (12 cars) thats only 7 trips per day if its all booked, more reasonably maybe 10 or 12.

[jawagord]

^ What about number of passengers per trip?

Sorry not train trips but passenger trips, ie 7000 one way passengers per day.

[chenmau]

Land bought for rail terminal
Province takes first step for potential high-speed link
MARIO TONEGUZZI
CALGARY HERALD
The provincial government has taken a tentative first step toward a high-speed rail link by buying land in downtown Calgary for a possible city station or terminal.
Luke Ouellette, minister of infrastructure and transportation, told a Calgary Real Estate Board breakfast meeting Tuesday the possibility of a high-speed train between Calgary and Edmonton has created a lot of interest over the years.
Ouellette said the government is conducting a market assessment for such a link. The study is expected to be completed by the fall.
In the meantime, the government has bought the land in Calgary.
Jerry Bellikka, spokesman for the Department of Infrastructure and Transportation, said he didn’t have specifics about the location, size or cost of the purchase.
“I don’t think it’s a very big parcel,” Bellikka said. “We have a transportation/utility corridor that already extends around the city, and then there’s some strategic stuff through the middle where power lines and stuff go.
“So as land becomes available when landlords are willing, we’ll deal with them and acquire it because we’ve got some right-ofway if we want to put railbed down in the future.”
He added: “My understanding is that somebody in downtown Calgary had a chunk of land . . . they were looking to get rid of it, and we said, ‘well, it’s right next to where we have our transportation/utility corridor, so we could probably use it if we decide to go ahead with the project, and if not, we could resell it for probably good cash.’ ”
Bruce Graham, president and CEO of Calgary Economic Development, said he’s pleased the province is being proactive.
He said a high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton would have numerous advantages.
“It just adds critical mass and some context, and completeness to the Calgary-Edmonton corridor by virtue of the fact you’ll be able to systematically do business — face-to-face business — in both those major centres, as well as Red Deer in between, in a more businessfriendly and appropriate manner.”
Graham added the link would define the region as a transportation leader.
“When you set up those linkages, it creates more business-to-business opportunities. Those are hard to quantify. . . . I’m looking forward to hearing what the detailed feasibility study is going to show us.”
Mayor Dave Bronconnier said city council’s priority is to expand the existing light rail transit service in Calgary.
“Having said that, we are supportive and have been supportive in terms of our staff participating in the study groups and working with a number of the proponents for a high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton,” Bronconnier said.
“I do think it’s an idea whose time has come. If you look at it from an economic perspective linking Calgary, Red Deer and Edmonton together with Calgary’s International Airport, it truly provides a significant air, transportation and rail link in Calgary.
“Our focus is still expanding the light rail transit, and that’s where our dollars will go within Calgary. But from a provincial perspective, it does make a lot of sense to consider it.”
At the Tuesday morning Calgary Real Estate Board meeting, Ouellette said the province is also finalizing an agreement with private developers to construct an interchange at Beddington for the Stoney Trail expansion.

[Calgarian]

good news.

[mersar]

Well Global just was showing the map of the site that was acquired, its between 4th and 5th St SE on the south side of 9th adjacent to the CP yard. Supposedly from what was said (they were interviewing Luke Ouellette, minister of Infrastructure & Transportation) the plan will involve CP a fair bit. The station, and a ~4000 car parkade would fit on the site, which I do believe is adjacent to the new City parkade that will be replacing the ugly one north of the municipal building. The routing, at least what they alluded to (probably based off the previous studies) showed the routing leaving the station site along the CP right of way, following it north to where it hits the airport. Then straight north to Red Deer where an optional station may be, and then on to downtown Edmonton where they already own land for such a station.

[Wooster]

God, I can't believe they are serious enough about this to purchase land.

[Policy Wonk]

Edmonton needs to hit the books and read up on what happened the last time they got into the railroad business...

[davee930]

no. who wants to go to edmonton?

[murman]

and then on to downtown Edmonton where they already own land for such a station.

I find that completely surprising.

[240glt]

no. who wants to go to edmonton?

:koko:

I'd love to be able to walk to the LRT station from my north central Edmonton home, take the LRT south to a HSR hub, take the train to DT Calgary, hop on the C-Train and take the ride down the free fare zone to 12streetSW, walk 10 minutes south and be at my condo :yes:

I drive the QE2 a lot, flying to Calgary is simply not practical, and driving is stressful when the highway is packed, and in the summer, it can be slow drive, esp. friday afternoon. Sit back on the train with a book and the iPOD, oh yeah!

[Boris2k7]

Well Global just was showing the map of the site that was acquired, its between 4th and 5th St SE on the south side of 9th adjacent to the CP yard. Supposedly from what was said (they were interviewing

So, just kitty corner to Arriva on the Remington site?

I'd love to be able to walk to the LRT station from my north central Edmonton home, take the LRT south to a HSR hub, take the train to DT Calgary, hop on the C-Train and take the ride down the free fare zone to 12streetSW, walk 10 minutes south and be at my condo :yes:

I drive the QE2 a lot, flying to Calgary is simply not practical, and driving is stressful when the highway is packed, and in the summer, it can be slow drive, esp. friday afternoon. Sit back on the train with a book and the iPOD, oh yeah!

High Five!

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/3790/borat20flags20549202930ol3.jpg

[The Kid]

I find that completely surprising.

Yep, I heard it again on QR77 while driving from Edmonton to Calgary this morning. Looks like the government now owns the land for train stations in both Calgary and Edmonton.

It went on to further say that the province will start counting cars in the next couple of weeks that drive straight through to/from Calgary/Edmonton without stopping (how they do that I have no idea) to get an idea of direct traffic numbers.

This thing could become reality!

[walli]

Well Global just was showing the map of the site that was acquired, its between 4th and 5th St SE on the south side of 9th adjacent to the CP yard. Supposedly from what was said (they were interviewing Luke Ouellette, minister of Infrastructure & Transportation) the plan will involve CP a fair bit. The station, and a ~4000 car parkade would fit on the site, which I do believe is adjacent to the new City parkade that will be replacing the ugly one north of the municipal building. The routing, at least what they alluded to (probably based off the previous studies) showed the routing leaving the station site along the CP right of way, following it north to where it hits the airport. Then straight north to Red Deer where an optional station may be, and then on to downtown Edmonton where they already own land for such a station.


Wow! That is right by the stampede! Great location.

BTW - have they actually accepted my idea of by-passing Leduc International? I think it is a good move, but I know that some in Edmonton would have their ego's hurt. It would make Calgary International Alberta's main airport hub!

[mersar]

They didn't mention anything about an airport station for Edmonton, so its possible.

[chuber]

I don't know if anyone noticed, but on the map on the first page, it looks like the south Edmonton stop would be in SEC. How cool would it be for people living downtown to take HSR to SEC!!! lol

(I'm really not serious...)


And I sure hope they would make a stop at YEG. Forget the southside stop.

[Danma]

I drive the QE2 a lot, flying to Calgary is simply not practical, and driving is stressful when the highway is packed, and in the summer, it can be slow drive, esp. friday afternoon. Sit back on the train with a book and the iPOD, oh yeah!

Absolutely! I drive up to E-town to visit both my and my wife's family on weekends. If I could go up and back in an hour and a half each way, and not spend 5-6 hours driving on busy highways, especially when the snow's blowing and the roads are slippery... sign me up! :) It would be even better because since I'm not driving, I can catch the 10 PM sunday one back and enjoy a nicer stay!

I also saw the Global clip. They were talking $120 round trip in their studies, apparently, but that isn't based on electric Shinkansen/TGV technology obviously.

[walli]

And I sure hope they would make a stop at YEG. Forget the southside stop.

I'd agree that they should forget the South Edmonton stop and go straight to DT, however, I do not agree that they should stop at YEG.

The whole idea is to make an efficient mode of transportation from Calgary to Edmonton and Edmonton to Calgary. YEG (which is NOT in Edmonton no matter how much Edmontonians scream) is a fly in the soup. With the slow-down and couple minutes layover, you'd be adding 25 minutes to the trip! It defeats the purpose.

I'll go to the extent that I'd only support the idea if it is either Calgary to Edmonton direct, with possibly only a single stop in between in Red Deer. There is absolutely no need to add a second stop in the middle - it really does defeat the purpose.

[walli]

Absolutely! I drive up to E-town to visit both my and my wife's family on weekends. If I could go up and back in an hour and a half each way, and not spend 5-6 hours driving on busy highways, especially when the snow's blowing and the roads are slippery... sign me up! :) It would be even better because since I'm not driving, I can catch the 10 PM sunday one back and enjoy a nicer stay!

I also saw the Global clip. They were talking $120 round trip in their studies, apparently, but that isn't based on electric Shinkansen/TGV technology obviously.

Sounds to me like there are would be a large number of people who would purchase multi-trip or yearly passes. That's the way to go!

[danby]

City TV Edmonton just mentioned that Edmonton as well has resereved land for a station for the high speed connect anyone hear this as well?

[Policy Wonk]

For the amount it would cost to build this abortion they might as well just reopen Edmonton Muni and subsudize each flight and save billions.

[240glt]

YEG (which is NOT in Edmonton no matter how much Edmontonians scream)

No.... it's outside the city limits where air traffic noise doesn't rumble over subdivisions day & night. That'll probably change soon enough as the city quickly grows south

Vancouver Airport isn't in Vancouver (it's in Delta I believe), Kelowna airport isn't in Kelowna (it is in Lake Country)... what is your point ?

[walli]

For the amount it would cost to build this abortion they might as well just reopen Edmonton Muni and subsudize each flight and save billions.

That is really short-term thinking.

[Zilla]

Well Global just was showing the map of the site that was acquired, its between 4th and 5th St SE on the south side of 9th adjacent to the CP yard.

I wonder if that was the 'Worthington' site (the 80-storey fishing expedition guys)...

[walli]

No.... it's outside the city limits where air traffic noise doesn't rumble over subdivisions day & night. That'll probably change soon enough as the city quickly grows south

Vancouver Airport isn't in Vancouver, Kelowna airport isn't in Kelowna... what is your point ?

There is no need to start arguing - I was simply stating facts. The idea of the train is to go between Calgary and Edmonton. Period.

BTW - Vancouver International is certainly in Greater Vancouver.

[e909]

The train station for Edmonton isn't in the city? What's the point of that?

[danby]

The train station for Edmonton isn't in the city? What's the point of that?

Are u talking about via rail??


Its Downtown ish.. its by the Muni

[chenmau]

There is no need to start arguing - I was simply stating facts. The idea of the train is to go between Calgary and Edmonton. Period.

BTW - Vancouver International is certainly in Greater Vancouver.

It's certainly in Edmonton's CMA (Greater Edmonton), so quit.

[feepa]

What land does the government have in Edmonton for a station. I wonder where. Anywhere but downtown is stupid. Laughably, they could put it right at 109st right besides the leg. Calgarian Politicians will have to spend as little time possible in Edmonton...

[walli]

It's certainly in Edmonton's CMA (Greater Edmonton)

Point taken, but irrespective, no one gets off at YEG because they live in the immediate vicinity. As a result, a high speed rail terminal there still doesn't make sense. Surly you will agree that YEG is not in Edmonton proper, whereas YYC is in Calgary proper. Points about noise have no bearing in this discussion. Vancouver and Kamloops also have no bearing on this discussion.

HSR stops should be:

Calgary DT - YYC - Red Deer (optional) - Edmonton DT

The Calgary stop would serve 1m people, the Edmonton stop would serve 1m people, the YYC stop would serve 300K people living around it, in addition to a proportion of the 12.5m passengers, and the Red Deer optional stop would serve the 100k people who live there.

Adding a stop at YEG defeats the purpose of fast travel between cities (connecting the political capital to the economic capital. A YEG stop in Leduc would add the cost of a station and it would considerably slow the travel down (likely adding 33% more time to the trip thus defeating the purpose).

[Me&You]

.... Calgarian Politicians will have to spend as little time possible in Edmonton...

Thank God ;)


I kid, I kid... any spot outside of the core would be rediculous...

[240glt]

YVR is in Richmond

Street Address:
3211 Grant McConachie Way
Richmond, B.C. V7B 1Y7

I do agree there's no need for a stop there, but your argument that YEG is not in Edmonton is invalid

[walli]

Thank God ;)


I kid, I kid... any spot outside of the core would be rediculous...

Agreed 100%. Don't need any stop other than DT within greater Edmonton.

[feepa]

Point taken, but irrespective, no one gets off at YEG because they live in the immediate vicinity. As a result, a high speed rail terminal there still doesn't make sense. Surly you will agree that YEG is not in Edmonton proper, whereas YYC is in Calgary proper. Points about noise have no bearing in this discussion. Vancouver and Kamloops also have no bearing on this discussion.

HSR stops should be:

Calgary DT - YYC - Red Deer (optional) - Edmonton DT

Adding a stop at YEG defeats the purpose of fast travel between cities (connecting the political capital to the economic capital. A YEG stop in Leduc would add the cost of a station and it would considerably slow the travel down (likely adding 33% more time to the trip thus defeating the purpose).


You dont make sense. any way you can look at it, one extra stop @ YYC is no different then one stop @ YEG.

Adding a stop at Either airport (slightly) defeats the purpose of fast travel between cities(Somehow you figure adding one extra station in Calgary Area is any different the Adding one station in the Edmonton Area. I'm not sure how its different.)

So the train either has to stop 10 minutes after depart from main station, or 20 minutes.

C- YYC - RD - YEG - ED

[walli]

YVR is in Richmond

Street Address:
3211 Grant McConachie Way
Richmond, B.C. V7B 1Y7

I do agree there's no need for a stop there, but your argument that YEG is not in Edmonton is invalid

This is not a discussion about a train to Vancouver. If it were, I'd definitely suggest that Richmond, unlike Leduc, is a large enough population to serve. Let's get back to the subject of the possible link from Edmonton to Calgary. YEG is NOT in Edmonton proper.

[walli]

You dont make sense. any way you can look at it, one extra stop @ YYC is no different then one stop @ YEG.

YYC stop not only would service a portion of its 12.5m passengers, it would also service 300,000 people in North Calgary. A YEG stop would only service a portion of its 6m passengers. It is not a parallel. The numbers are telling.

[240glt]

A YCC stop is just as pointless as a YEG stop, IMO

The point of this proposed HSR line is to rapidly move people between two major sities, not to shuttle people around between DT Calgary and the airport, which is a 15 minute cab ride. DT to YEG is a 25 minute cab ride... big freakin' deal

[danby]

i think a stop at both airports is well needed.. with in Edmonton the parking issues with there being no parking taking the high speed just to the airport could reduce parking issues rather then building a LRT to the airport and ALOT of people work out there Leduc and Namao could benifit from the raill

And with YEG alot of people from the north have to fly to edmonton before calagry so why fill another plane with people when u can have them on rail...


Calgary Downtown-Airport- Red deer (peak hours) Airport - Edmonton DT

[nunuangel99]

YYC stop not only would service a portion of its 12.5m passengers, it would also service 300,000 people in North Calgary. A YEG stop would only service a portion of its 6m passengers. It is not a parallel. The numbers are telling.

Man, you are just stupid!! you can't use airport numbers like that as a lot of travellers are connectors as well. The whole idea beyond two stops (maybe third at Red Deer) would not make sense!! neither YEG or YYC should have a stop!!

[walli]

The point of this proposed HSR line is to rapidly move people between two major sities, not to shuttle people around between DT Calgary and the airport, which is a 15 minute cab ride. DT to YEG is a 25 minute cab ride... big freakin' deal


YYC would service the 300,000 people living around it so that they can get to Edmonton. It would also service people landing at YYC to travel to Edmonton directly on the next leg of their journey. This is a valid point as Calgary gets a ton more international and transborder passengers. YEG only has Leduc around it. Which part of this are you missing?

[feepa]

YYC stop not only would service a portion of its 12.5m passengers, it would also service 300,000 people in North Calgary. A YEG stop would only service a portion of its 6m passengers. It is not a parallel. The numbers are telling.

Theres a huge number of people in South Edmonton that would likely also use this station. South Edmonton to Airport is only 10 minutes. Again, you really dont know what you are talking about when it comes to Edmonton...

[240glt]

Walli, most of those 300,000 people can get to the HSR terminal on the C-train, or take a five minute cab ride to the airport. What you really want is two stops in Calgary within 10 kilometres of each other, which for a high speed line, does not make sense.

[feepa]

YYC would service the 300,000 people living around it so that they can get to Edmonton. It would also service people landing at YYC to travel to Edmonton directly on the next leg of their journey. This is a valid point as Calgary gets a ton more international and transborder passengers. YEG only has Leduc around it. Which part of this are you missing?
Please use http://maps.google.ca
look up Edmonton
STUDY the area. Please then shut up already. When will this train be ready? 10-50 years? Tell me where you think Edmontons borders will lay. Tell me you dont think people wouldnt use this station in South Edmonton versus going downtown.

Clearly HSR should only be Cal-RD-Edm

[nunuangel99]

Please use http://maps.google.ca
look up Edmonton
STUDY the area. Please then shut up already. When will this train be ready? 10-50 years? Tell me where you think Edmontons borders will lay. Tell me you dont think people wouldnt use this station in South Edmonton versus going downtown.

Clearly HSR should only be Cal-RD-Edm

AGREED Walli needs to do his homework before yapping!!

[chenmau]

The S in HSR is for Speed. A stop at YYC or in South Edmonton does not facilitate speed. Both of these locations will be serve by light rail in the future, so why does the governemt want to duplicate efforts?

[danby]

very good point.. like feepa said in 10-50 years well i know by 50 years edmonton will touch the airport why not just take the lrt downtown then catch the HSR same with calgary... in 50 years lrt will problay be in north calgary just catch a 10-15 min ride and your there!

[JAH]

Walli.. how can you argue that there are 300,000 pple living in N. Calgary who will benefit from a YYC stop and then at the same time say that YEG stop would not serve that many pple? I live in S. Edmonton and I'll bet u anything i can get to the airport faster than many Calgarians can. Maybe you should take a second look at the population of South Edm and Leduc

For me, I would either do both stops or no airport stops at all.

[walli]

Cal-RD-Edm

I agree. YYC is IN Calgary, where as YEG is in Leduc.

[240glt]

^This guy is like listening to a broken record

[codeman9669]

...

The Calgary stop would serve 1m people, the Edmonton stop would serve 1m people, the YYC stop would serve 300K people living around it, in addition to a proportion of the 12.5m passengers, and the Red Deer optional stop would serve the 100k people who live there.

...

Not to stir things up, but I didnt realize that Calgary now had a population of 1.3 million!?! If you want to count the "300K people living around it" that a YYC stop would service, that means the "calgary" stop only services 700K.

In my mind, they both get two stops, or they both get one stop. My vote would be one.

[danby]

I agree. YYC is IN Calgary, where as YEG is in Leduc.


I think he ment Calgary DT not the airport do u work for them or somthing that ur pushing it soo much?

calgary as in DOWNTOWN.. people living in edmonton and red deer who come for meetings even shopping or even hoildays don't wanna go to a airport and then have to find a way to hotels and downtown.. makes no sense


stop in dt calgary red deer dt edmonton good enough

[feepa]

I agree. YYC is IN Calgary, where as YEG is in Leduc.
yes, so only one stop in Calgary, and one in Red deer, and one in Edmonton. Glad we Agree.

I disagree with your point that the only station in Calgary should be at YYC. I think downtown would be better, dont you?

[e909]

Maybe I'm not understanding, but is the Edmonton line going to stop around YEG? (And not go downtown?)

Downtown Calgary to YEG would be silly. There would be little advantage given by the rail compared to flying.

[danby]

Maybe I'm not understanding, but is the Edmonton line going to stop around YEG? (And not go downtown?)

Downtown Calgary to YEG would be silly. There would be little advantage given by the rail compared to flying.

what the HSR is suposed to be is DT calgary to Edmonton DT some people think it should stop at airports

[e909]

what the HSR is suposed to be is DT calgary to Edmonton DT some people think it should stop at airports
If there's demand why not? Have some express trains, and some that stop at various locations.

[Bigtime]

So, just kitty corner to Arriva on the Remington site?

So does this mean I'll get my 4th Street underpass built sooner now? :D

Although I'm still on the fence with this idea, I have no problem with the associated benefits being right at my soon to be door!

This will be the feather in the Victoria Park area's hat! :tup:

[danby]

It doesn't make sense really...

HSR is suposed to be FAST... stoping say at DT Calgary Then YYC would be a 5-10 min ride which is not worth it.. when in 20 years (or more) when they build this they will have LRT going to the airport's which would mean some one could hop on the LRT then to the HSR downtown..

Vise versa for edmonton

[Bigtime]

Does anyone think that maybe the airlines don't want a stop at either YYC or YEG? Ultimately it will hurt them wouldn't it? Even in the past haven't the airlines and their lobbying been the main reason(besides cost) that HSR gets shot down?

Even though I'm still not sold on the idea, I have visions of a grand downtown terminal in Calgary. Modern and clean, with a great community set up around it in the density of our core!

[240glt]

From YYC construction

I think part of the reason you Edmonton folks are irritated is semantics. In addition to the DT stations, the reason a YYC stop should be considered is that it is by far the largest air traffic hub in Alberta - more than double Leduc. We should not be thinking HSR versus air traffic, but rather, part of an integrated travel network. Rename YYC to Alberta International. Connect it directly with the three main DT cores in Alberta, and we're done. Now we don't hurt all the egos - we simply change the names to properly reflect what the airports are about: Leduc Domestic and Alberta International.

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

[Beltliner]

Does anyone think that maybe the airlines don't want a stop at either YYC or YEG? Ultimately it will hurt them wouldn't it? Even in the past haven't the airlines and their lobbying been the main reason(besides cost) that HSR gets shot down?

Even though I'm still not sold on the idea, I have visions of a grand downtown terminal in Calgary. Modern and clean, with a great community set up around it in the density of our core!

Can't speak for the airlines, but for myself, the biggest argument against an intercity TGV would be that every land swindler from Airdrie to Leduc would be clamouring for a station next to each of their pet projects, leaving those of us who actually wanted to go from downtown to downtown to rattle like ice cubes in a martini shaker every time the train stopped and started and stopped again.

My bottom line? You want TGV-grade service, run it downtown to downtown. You want multiple stops, bring back the Dayliner. Puh-leese, enough with this train trying to be all things to all people already!

[Bigtime]

Can't speak for the airlines, but for myself, the biggest argument against an intercity TGV would be that every land swindler from Airdrie to Leduc would be clamouring for a station next to each of their pet projects, leaving those of us who actually wanted to go from downtown to downtown to rattle like ice cubes in a martini shaker every time the train stopped and started and stopped again.

My bottom line? You want TGV-grade service, run it downtown to downtown. You want multiple stops, bring back the Dayliner. Puh-leese, enough with this train trying to be all things to all people already!

I agree with you on all those points, point to point baby! Just make it fast! :tup:

[feepa]

From YYC construction



This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

Agreed. YEG is as important to Edmonton, as YYC is to Calgary.
People aren't going to fly to Calgary to hop on a train to go to Edmonton. They will want to fly right to Edmonton. Walli has a unhidden agenda to smear Edmonton, and anything about Edmonton. I'm very tempted to find this ignore feature for this fellow...

[walli]

Agreed. YEG is as important to Edmonton, as YYC is to Calgary.

With equal populations, one wonders why YEG gets less than half the passenger traffic as YYC. I would agree with a slight modification to your statement:

"YEG is as important to Leduc, as YYC is to Calgary."

[240glt]

That makes about as much sense as your bizarre master transportation plan.

YEG is the EDMONTON INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, whether you like that or not.

[The Kid]

With equal populations, one wonders why YEG gets less than half the passenger traffic as YYC. I would agree with a slight modification to your statement:

"YEG is as important to Leduc, as YYC is to Calgary."

Ouch!..That hurts Walli......why such the hate for YEG?????

[walli]

I had put this in the YYC thread in error ...

I think part of the reason you Edmonton folks are irritated is semantics. In addition to the DT stations, the reason a YYC stop should be considered is that it is by far the largest air traffic hub in Alberta - more than double Leduc. We should not be thinking HSR versus air traffic, but rather, part of an integrated travel network. Rename YYC to Alberta International. Connect it directly with the three main DT cores in Alberta, and we're done. Now we don't hurt all the egos - we simply change the names to properly reflect what the airports are about: Leduc Domestic and Alberta International.

[Bigtime]

With equal populations, one wonders why YEG gets less than half the passenger traffic as YYC. I would agree with a slight modification to your statement:

"YEG is as important to Leduc, as YYC is to Calgary."

I don't want to wade into this airport debate, since this thread is supposed to be about choo choo trains, but YYC's higher numbers tend to be related to the fact that both AC and Canadian had always focused on YYC as a hub for Alberta and Saskatchewan(to a lesser extent). Even evident in the present with how Westjet started up here and naturally used it as a hub point as well.

Walli I suggest you take your grudge match against YEG over to airliners.net and try and wrassle with the big dogs over there, perhaps you will learn the truth to not just YEG, but YYC as well.

Choo Choo! :tup:

[feepa]

With equal populations, one wonders why YEG gets less than half the passenger traffic as YYC. I would agree with a slight modification to your statement:

"YEG is as important to Leduc, as YYC is to Calgary."

YEG is also called the Edmonton International Airport. Its Not called Leduc Internation Airport. Leduc is in the Greater Edmonton Region. etc etc... are you here to just attempt to irritate or actually add something to the discussion?
Shit son, there are many parts of Calgary that are further away from the Airport the Airdire. Maybe we should start calling YYC Airdire International?

We've gone through with you before all this stuff between Edmonton and Calgary, but you still sport the same line. You are as annoying as MikeToronto can be at a times. You're more constant though.

[walli]

Ouch!..That hurts Walli......why such the hate for YEG?????

I'm not against YEG ... I just wish people would call a spade a spade. Beyond passengers, consider the development around YYC.

[walli]

there are many parts of Calgary that are further away from the Airport the Airdire. Maybe we should start calling YYC Airdire International

YYC is IN Calgary proper, YEG is in Leduc County proper. Your suggestion is ridiculous.

[Beltliner]

YEG is also called the Edmonton International Airport. Its Not called Leduc Internation Airport. Leduc is in the Greater Edmonton Region. etc etc... are you here to just attempt to irritate or actually add something to the discussion?
Shit son, there are many parts of Calgary that are further away from the Airport the Airdire. Maybe we should start calling YYC Airdire International?

We've gone through with you before all this stuff between Edmonton and Calgary, but you still sport the same line. You are as annoying as MikeToronto can be at a times. You're more constant though.

You little scamps are as bad as a sewing circle!

[/gratuitous Pulp Fiction quotes]

[danby]

i had to double check the topic of this fourm to see what were dissussing and its not on topic so can we keep on topic?

and keep this walli guy to belive what he wishes to belive...

[240glt]

consider the development around YYC.


Umm.... go read the EIA thread. There is tonnes of expenasions, upgrades, and a hotel going in right now.

YYC is IN Calgary proper, YEG is in Leduc County proper. Your suggestion is ridiculous

Almost as ridiculous as your suggestion that YYC should be Alberta's only international airport.

AAAANNNNDDD this ties back into MY comments about YVR being in Richmond and Kelowna International being in Lake Country. You claim that Edmontonians are all hung up on semantics but in reality it is YOU that is playing THAT game!

[JAH]

Walli.. i think your reasonings are ridiculous. Who the fuck cares what region the airport is in????? Can you NOT read or something?? Edmonton's airport is as close to S Edm as Calgary's airport is to N Calgary. So enough with your "not in Edmonton prop bullshit"

Also take a look at YEG's numbers.. I believe that its the fastest growing in Canada?

[The Kid]

Sooooooo.........now that we know exactly where YYC is and where YEG is.....how about that train, eh????

[Xelebes]

YYC is IN Calgary proper, YEG is in Leduc County proper. Your suggestion is ridiculous.


The fuck dude? Many city's international airports are in different counties - even in different provinces/states/oblasts.

[m0nkyman]

With equal populations, one wonders why YEG gets less than half the passenger traffic as YYC. I would agree with a slight modification to your statement:

"YEG is as important to Leduc, as YYC is to Calgary."
This is getting disruptive.

[240glt]

^Agreed. Total derailment of the train thread:D

[m0nkyman]

^Agreed. Total derailment of the train thread:D

Yup. This conversation is turning into a train wreck...