Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Leo the Dog]

I hate the South Mountain Freeway proposal. I would say of the few things in Arizona that I don't like, this is number 1 on that list (number 2 is the 303 loop).

With the sprawl that the South 202 will promote and create, Phoenix would take a huge step backwards in any centralized urban progress it has actually made in recent years. Phoenix/Arizona/Maricopa need to focus more on LTR and CR at this point and continue it's advance with more urban development.

I'm in favor of the South Mountain Freeway. It will divert thru traffic off of the 10. It won't create more sprawl. Ahwatukee is built out, so is most of Chandler. Laveen will always be sprawly. It won't sprawl more because of the freeway...it'll sprawl the same regardless of freeway or not.

The Loop 303 is probably the worst use of transportation funds though. That is absolutely a sprawl enabler project.

[Obadno]

I'm in favor of the South Mountain Freeway. It will divert thru traffic off of the 10. It won't create more sprawl. Ahwatukee is built out, so is most of Chandler. Laveen will always be sprawly. It won't sprawl more because of the freeway...it'll sprawl the same regardless of freeway or not.

The Loop 303 is probably the worst use of transportation funds though. That is absolutely a sprawl enabler project.

Exactly^^ Ahwatukke has very little available land. all that might get built is town homes, carriage homes and apartments, not a problem.

The majority of the 202 freeway is sandwiched between Ahwatukke, south mountain parkland, and the reservation, nowhere to create more sprawl besides leveen which will occur regardless. it make traveling from the SE valley to the west valley a lot more efficiant

[combusean]

Stanton's pushing for an extension or possible increase to Transit 2000 which is expiring soon--a new measure might triple the amount of light rail in the city.

http://www.azcentral.com/videos/news/local/phoenix/2014/08/11/13933793/?hootPostID=e1d4b7e2a9033707970b2d84eebac92a

[rocksteady]

Stanton's pushing for an extension or possible increase to Transit 2000 which is expiring soon--a new measure might triple the amount of light rail in the city.

http://www.azcentral.com/videos/news/local/phoenix/2014/08/11/13933793/?hootPostID=e1d4b7e2a9033707970b2d84eebac92a

This is great news. Unfortunately this city is extremely slow when it comes to approving and building new things....so I'll likely be dead before I ever see it completed. :( Bring it on though!

[dtnphx]

This is great news. Unfortunately this city is extremely slow when it comes to approving and building new things....so I'll likely be dead before I ever see it completed. :( Bring it on though!

I love the idea. It'll never happen. Bring it on? What?

City of Phoenix voters are notoriously progressive when voting for programs like this. It should get the go-ahead if it's a reasonable plan.

[Leo the Dog]

Stanton's pushing for an extension or possible increase to Transit 2000 which is expiring soon--a new measure might triple the amount of light rail in the city.

http://www.azcentral.com/videos/news/local/phoenix/2014/08/11/13933793/?hootPostID=e1d4b7e2a9033707970b2d84eebac92a

This is great and it'll only take 30 years to reach South Phoenix!

I'm in favor of this, but it's so frustrating how slow transportation projects happen. Would've been nice if this happened in 1980.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/08/12/phoenix-mayor-stanton-wants-expand-light-rail/13957029/

He wants to triple the light-rail route. Can't you guys believe this? He is still considering?

Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton wants to triple Metro light rail's mileage over the next 30 years. But do to that, the city would likely need to go back to voters to fund it.

Let the speculation begin.

[RichTempe]

This is great and it'll only take 30 years to reach South Phoenix!

I'm in favor of this, but it's so frustrating how slow transportation projects happen. Would've been nice if this happened in 1980.

They tried it in 1989 (Valtrans Prop 300). There would have been 103 miles of rail, some of it elevated. It would be only 5 years from completion had it passed back then. :(

[Leo the Dog]

They tried it in 1989 (Valtrans Prop 300). There would have been 103 miles of rail, some of it elevated. It would be only 5 years from completion had it passed back then. :(

I know, could you imagine!? Phoenix would be quite a different city. I think ValTrans was just too big, just a little too soon.

[Classical in Phoenix]

I know, could you imagine!? Phoenix would be quite a different city. I think ValTrans was just too big, just a little too soon.

My girlfriend said the same thing on an unrelated matter.:shrug:

[HooverDam]

Phoenix has set up http://www.talktransportation.org/ (http://www.talktransportation.org/), its from the same people (Mind Mixer) who have been running ReInvent PHX. You can go on and post your ideas on how to improve Transportation in Phoenix, or just vote on other peoples ideas.

[N830MH]

You hear that right, Gentlemen!!!

Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton will considering to extend from downtown Phoenix to Baseline Rd corridor.

http://www.azfamily.com/home/City-of-Phoenix-proposes-expansion-of-light-rail-system-271728441.html

They will have a vote sometime next year. They will approved it.

[RichTempe]

Per the 3TV article:

The Mayor wants to extend the Central Avenue line south to Baseline Road, and extend the 19th Avenue line north to Dunlap.

The line is already being extended to Dunlap and is scheduled to open late next year or early 2016. That's not new or subject to any vote. Didn't construction start almost 2 years ago?:???:

[exit2lef]

Per the 3TV article:



The line is already being extended to Dunlap and is scheduled to open late next year or early 2016. That's not new or subject to any vote. Didn't construction start almost 2 years ago?:???:

It sure did, and there was a first-track ceremony just a few weeks ago to mark the halfway point in construction. Never underestimate the ability of our local media to muddle the details of transit projects.

[Jjs5056]

Given the demographics of south Phoenix, I wonder if BRT was ever considered instead of light rail? That's probably one area where you could count on people actually riding the bus, since they already do without the fancy platforms and dedicated lanes.

I wonder why it isn't a priority to connect with the Biltmore? Am I just overthinking the importance? Without being able to tap into the visitors who choose Scottsdale, Biltmore is the next best thing and it would connect central Phoenix to the best shopping, and run through the 3 major business centers. Development is hot in the area just south, so it would be great if future projects were more transit-oriented and for Camelback to transition into more of a pedestrian-friendly route between 7th Ave and 24th St.

That probably would've been my choice as the 3rd extension after Mesa and Capitol Mall.

[N830MH]

Per the 3TV article:



The line is already being extended to Dunlap and is scheduled to open late next year or early 2016. That's not new or subject to any vote. Didn't construction start almost 2 years ago?:???:

Yes, they already start construction in a few years ago and it will be completion sometime in mid-2016.

[N830MH]

All,

Here the AZ Central newspaper:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/08/14/phoenix-leaders-support-pay-light-rail-growth/14067635/

[HooverDam]

Given the demographics of south Phoenix, I wonder if BRT was ever considered instead of light rail? That's probably one area where you could count on people actually riding the bus, since they already do without the fancy platforms and dedicated lanes.


Thats a tough sell though. "Hey you're used to always getting the 2nd best and seem to put up with it because you're politically disenfranchised and economically depleted, have the something subpar again!"

I'm actually probably more pro BRT than most (I don't really think there's any real BRT in the US, so when people say it doesn't work here, I don't buy that entirely) but I'd like to see it as something to augment Light Rail, not replace it in corridors. I.E. I think a BRT on the 7's would be great, maybe it would loop at Missouri on the North and Van Buren on the South, and maybe a connector midway through (on Thomas perhaps? I haven't totally thought this through).

[exit2lef]

Thats a tough sell though. "Hey you're used to always getting the 2nd best and seem to put up with it because you're politically disenfranchised and economically depleted, have the something subpar again!"


Agreed. The decision between rail and bus needs to be based on the expected volume of passengers, the potential for transit-oriented development, and appropriate technical considerations. We don't want to do anything that even remotely suggests a two-tier system based on ethnicity or class.

[phoenixwillrise]

[QUOTE=exit2lef;6701685]Agreed. The decision between rail and bus needs to be based on the expected volume of passengers, the potential for transit-oriented development, and appropriate technical considerations. We don't want to do anything that even remotely suggests a two-tier system based on ethnicity or class.[/QU

I Have no clue how you post a new topic here so I just hit reply sorry for being tech challenged. My topic is Sky Train. Has it dawned on anyone when they make the final run from terminal 3 to the rent a car facility that the Greyhound Bus Terminal is on the way there. Surely a stop there would be beneficial as I would assume there are bus riders coming in from smaller towns who when they get to Phoenix may at that point fly to their destination. What say you people?

[HooverDam]

[QUOTE=exit2lef;6701685]

I Have no clue how you post a new topic here so I just hit reply sorry for being tech challenged. My topic is Sky Train. Has it dawned on anyone when they make the final run from terminal 3 to the rent a car facility that the Greyhound Bus Terminal is on the way there. Surely a stop there would be beneficial as I would assume there are bus riders coming in from smaller towns who when they get to Phoenix may at that point fly to their destination. What say you people?

Not a bad idea. Though long term, I'd rather see the Greyhound station moved to be adjacent/connected to Union Station in Downtown Phoenix, much like South Station in Boston and many other major stations across the country/world.

Bus is a mode of ground travel and it makes more sense for people getting off buses to be able to walk to a hotel or actual be in a place. Where the Greyhound station currently is, people are basically on an island in a part of the city that there's no real reason to be in.

[Jjs5056]

Agreed. The decision between rail and bus needs to be based on the expected volume of passengers, the potential for transit-oriented development, and appropriate technical considerations. We don't want to do anything that even remotely suggests a two-tier system based on ethnicity or class.

Sorry if I implied that I wanted to give a 2nd-tiered system to South Phoenix. I didn't consider BRT to be 2nd-tier when I wrote that, since our light rail is essentially a glorified streetcar system. I guess my thought was if a more affordable mass transit upgrade would actually work for an area, why not use it than the higher cost alternative if it moves people at the same rate?

I just think - probably similar to Hoover - that BRT isn't discussed or used as often as it could be here. It seems to be light rail or nothing, and I don't think that's the smartest system.

I think a streetcar system focused on McDowell - one spur to connect the arts district via Grand from 7th to 19th avenues and another from Central to ~16th street and over to Garfield would supplement BRT on the 7's well.

[exit2lef]

Sorry if I implied that I wanted to give a 2nd-tiered system to South Phoenix. I didn't consider BRT to be 2nd-tier when I wrote that, since our light rail is essentially a glorified streetcar system. I guess my thought was if a more affordable mass transit upgrade would actually work for an area, why not use it than the higher cost alternative if it moves people at the same rate?

I just think - probably similar to Hoover - that BRT isn't discussed or used as often as it could be here. It seems to be light rail or nothing, and I don't think that's the smartest system.

I think a streetcar system focused on McDowell - one spur to connect the arts district via Grand from 7th to 19th avenues and another from Central to ~16th street and over to Garfield would supplement BRT on the 7's well.

I realize you may not consider BRT second-tier, but I do. Buses are far more stigmatized than trains, even when they're gussied up with BRT features such as boarding platforms, dedicated lanes, and pre-boarding ticket sales. I can't tell you know the number of people who've said to me, "I'll take a train, but I won't take a bus."

That said, there is a role for BRT in Phoenix -- as an interim solution for corridors awaiting rail or in situations in which rail is just not possible due to technical or political considerations. The 7s probably make sense for BRT because they're too close to the existing light rail line to be a viable corridor for additional train routes.

[Jjs5056]

I realize you may not consider BRT second-tier, but I do. Buses are far more stigmatized than trains, even when they're gussied up with BRT features such as boarding platforms, dedicated lanes, and pre-boarding ticket sales. I can't tell you know the number of people who've said to me, "I'll take a train, but I won't take a bus."

That said, there is a role for BRT in Phoenix -- as an interim solution for corridors awaiting rail or in situations in which rail is just not possible due to technical or political considerations. The 7s probably make sense for BRT because they're too close to the existing light rail line to be a viable corridor for additional train routes.

I guess that's exactly why I thought it was a good idea, since this demo wouldn't care about the fanciness. I definitely get how it would look from the outside now, so it was a dumb suggestion.

[HooverDam]

That said, there is a role for BRT in Phoenix -- as an interim solution for corridors awaiting rail or in situations in which rail is just not possible due to technical or political considerations. The 7s probably make sense for BRT because they're too close to the existing light rail line to be a viable corridor for additional train routes.

As we've discussed in the past I also think the I-10 median would make sense for BRT instead of LRT.

I 100% agree with you about the 7's being too close to existing rail for more rail. Though if you talk to Will Bruder, he thinks we need rail (in the form of modern streetcar) on the 3's! Which I think is a super lousy idea.

[Jjs5056]

As we've discussed in the past I also think the I-10 median would make sense for BRT instead of LRT.

I 100% agree with you about the 7's being too close to existing rail for more rail. Though if you talk to Will Bruder, he thinks we need rail (in the form of modern streetcar) on the 3's! Which I think is a super lousy idea.

What about a streetcar that went from up Grand to the fairgrounds, east on McDowell, and south on 3rd Ave through Hance and terminated within Roosevelt? I can't think of another route without going so far east that it woukd possibly become unviable economically.

[pbenjamin]

As we've discussed in the past I also think the I-10 median would make sense for BRT instead of LRT.

I 100% agree with you about the 7's being too close to existing rail for more rail. Though if you talk to Will Bruder, he thinks we need rail (in the form of modern streetcar) on the 3's! Which I think is a super lousy idea.

What would BRT on the 7s accomplish? You mentioned a loop turning around at Missouri. There is already reasonably good bus service and they are only 1/2 mile from the existing LRT.

[HooverDam]

What would BRT on the 7s accomplish? You mentioned a loop turning around at Missouri. There is already reasonably good bus service and they are only 1/2 mile from the existing LRT.

Well it would connect the areas outside the 7's to more real mass transit. It would also give a viable solution/alternative to the suicide lanes. BRT has much higher ridership potential and better service than regular buses. The idea is to give Central Phoenix really outstanding service, not just pretty good. For instance I live at 8th St/Windsor (basically Thomas/7th St) and while I use LRT daily, I have to reach it by my bike. I can walk but its about maximum walking distance, especially in the summer. I could theoretically ride a bus down 7th St, but they're so infrequent and unpredictable, I'd rather go the extra 1/2 mile on my bike to get to the train. Plus there's still a fair amount of undeveloped land along the 7's and a fixed mode like BRT would hopefully lead to some TOD.

[N830MH]

All,

Look the thread at entire airliners.net.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/non_aviation/read.main/2591291/

You can read it. This is for future light rail routes.

[TakeFive]

As we've discussed in the past I also think the I-10 median would make sense for BRT instead of LRT.

I'd agree. I didn't really understand BRT until recently seeing this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvZXRxnZIQk)

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/09/12/south-phoenix-light-rail-planning-gets-m-boost/15501641/

Efforts to bring light rail to south Phoenix just got a major financial boost.

The city is expected to receive a $1.6 million grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation to ramp up planning for a rail extension south of downtown along Central Avenue to Baseline Road.

Councilman Daniel Valenzuela, who lobbied for the grant during a recent trip to Washington, D.C., said bringing light rail to the low-income area is critical given that many residents rely on mass transit to get to work, school and medical appointments.

[CrestedSaguaro]

I really question this study. Considering that the majority of road travel in Arizona occurs in and around Phoenix, of course the study is going to show a drop in road travel due to light rail usage and such. I would like to see a study centered around the actual corridor from Phoenix to Las Vegas rather than a statewide transit study. I bet the outcome would be quite different and would show that travel between the 2 have increased drastically.

September 24, 2014PHOENIX - The $2.5 billion Interstate 11 project, proposed to connect Phoenix and Las Vegas, is not in the best interest of taxpayers, according to a study from the Arizona Public Interest Research Group. "(The) I-11 corridor is based on obsolete traffic assumptions that are being used to justify outrageous amounts of spending on an unnecessary highway," said Diane Brown, executive director of Arizona PIRG. Brown said transportation planners operate under the assumption that more highways are needed because Americans will drive more in the future - but the opposite trend is occurring. PIRG research indicates that from 2005 to 2012, Arizona saw an 11 percent decline in annual vehicle miles driven. Brown said the study, entitled "Highway Boondoggles: Wasted Money and America's Transportation Future," also shows that people in the Grand Canyon State and across the nation are opting to use public transportation more than in the past. She said the billions of dollars that would be spent building Interstate 11 would better serve taxpayers by funding more projects such as the Phoenix light rail and the Tucson streetcar. "The use of taxpayer dollars should increasingly be going toward the options that people are choosing," Brown said, "which continues to be more public transportation, more bikeable and walkable communities." Brown said research also shows the majority of Arizonans favor improving existing roadways over building new ones. Supporters of Interstate 11 say it would improve traffic flow between Phoenix and Las Vegas, which are the only two cities in the United States with populations over 1 million that do not have a direct Interstate connection. - See more at: http://www.publicnewsservice.org/2014-09-24/urban-planning-transportation/i-11-proposal-phoenix-to-las-vegas-a-highway-boondoggle/a41893-1#sthash.bd0IFdRQ.dpuf

http://www.publicnewsservice.org/2014-09-24/urban-planning-transportation/i-11-proposal-phoenix-to-las-vegas-a-highway-boondoggle/a41893-1

[DevilsRider]

I think there is certainly value to upgrading the entire stretch from Las Vegas to Wickenburg into a divided highway. Having made this trip many times, I am always surprised there aren't MORE head-on collisions from impatient drivers attempting to pass slower-moving vehicles. And if I-11 was proposed for only that corridor, I would be all for it. Particularly if it included right-of-way reservation for future high-speed rail.

Having said that, a significant part of I-11 is the creation of brand-new freeway west of the White Tanks and paralleling I-8 in the south (see the blue line in the link). THAT section seems like an absurd waste of money and completely against any semblance of fiscal or environmental sensibility.

http://www.interstate11.org/i11/exhibits/Interstate%2011%20Corridor%20Map%202-09.pdf

I really question this study. Considering that the majority of road travel in Arizona occurs in and around Phoenix, of course the study is going to show a drop in road travel due to light rail usage and such. I would like to see a study centered around the actual corridor from Phoenix to Las Vegas rather than a statewide transit study. I bet the outcome would be quite different and would show that travel between the 2 have increased drastically.



http://www.publicnewsservice.org/2014-09-24/urban-planning-transportation/i-11-proposal-phoenix-to-las-vegas-a-highway-boondoggle/a41893-1

[HooverDam]

I think there is certainly value to upgrading the entire stretch from Las Vegas to Wickenburg into a divided highway. Having made this trip many times, I am always surprised there aren't MORE head-on collisions from impatient drivers attempting to pass slower-moving vehicles. And if I-11 was proposed for only that corridor, I would be all for it. Particularly if it included right-of-way reservation for future high-speed rail.

Having said that, a significant part of I-11 is the creation of brand-new freeway west of the White Tanks and paralleling I-8 in the south (see the blue line in the link). THAT section seems like an absurd waste of money and completely against any semblance of fiscal or environmental sensibility.

http://www.interstate11.org/i11/exhibits/Interstate%2011%20Corridor%20Map%202-09.pdf

Agreed 100%. If they said "hey we need an Interstate/divided highway from the 101 loop (or even 303) to Vegas" fine, build it. But lets call a spade a spade, a good portion of this project is designed to open a new sprawl corridor west of the White Tanks, which is horrifying.

[turpentyne]

I've long felt that a downtown streetcar system should start with one on each of the 7s, then maybe a horizontal one (or light rail) along Mcdowell.

I know some think this is too close to the current lines, but consider the opinion of somebody handicapped, or over the age of 75, or even just carrying something - groceries. Car battery, or any number of reasons. In other cities, that distance is normal.

I know we're a more spread out city, but I think it's the right move to influence density - I do think it would help to have the lines make a couple turns for more area coverage in the neighborhoods even.

That's my thought anyway. I would absolutely love those ( and a line up to glendale :)

[N830MH]

http://www.azfamily.com/traffic/Last-chance-for-public-to-review-proposed-Loop-202-extension-277275611.html

This is last chance for public to review proposal Loop 202 extension. They have to be approved.

Published by the Arizona Department of Transportation in partnership with the Federal Highway Administration, the document is part of a review process required by the federal government. It provides the public with a final opportunity to review the preferred freeway route, which was identified through the South Mountain Transportation Corridor Study.

ADOT said the freeway is the final link in the voter-approved loop system of freeways serving the Phoenix area. The preferred route runs east and west along Pecos Road and north between 55th and 63rd avenues, connecting with Interstate 10 on each end.

Come on you guys!! Vote now!

[Leo the Dog]

Agreed 100%. If they said "hey we need an Interstate/divided highway from the 101 loop (or even 303) to Vegas" fine, build it. But lets call a spade a spade, a good portion of this project is designed to open a new sprawl corridor west of the White Tanks, which is horrifying.

Isn't Buckeye supposed to build enough housing for 1 million people in the Hassayampa Valley? Water rights exist in the form of ground water, so if people are willing, to live there, then it is possible.

This would be tragic, but if it's gonna happen, best to plan for it and set aside transportation corridors now.

[KevininPhx]

Isn't Buckeye supposed to build enough housing for 1 million people in the Hassayampa Valley? Water rights exist in the form of ground water, so if people are willing, to live there, then it is possible.

This would be tragic, but if it's gonna happen, best to plan for it and set aside transportation corridors now.

It's already happening. The amount of development way way west of Buckeye and even Tonopah is incredible or terrible, depending on your point of view. (I hate it.) Just about all the land 50 miles west and beyond of the 303 seems to have for sale signs on it.

[Leo the Dog]

It's already happening. The amount of development way way west of Buckeye and even Tonopah is incredible or terrible, depending on your point of view. (I hate it.) Just about all the land 50 miles west and beyond of the 303 seems to have for sale signs on it.

That's incredible! I haven't driven around over there since 2008ish. This will definitely strain the infrastructure. It should come as no surprise though. This has been predicted for decades. The Great Recession just delayed the inevitable by a decade or so.

[N830MH]

Any news about light rail lately?

[Classical in Phoenix]

http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/10/3-big-challenges-for-planning-multi-modal-cities/381254/

The challenge of multi modes of transportation.

[N830MH]

http://www.kpho.com/story/26835748/residents-plan-to-pack-up-as-loop-202-expansion-plan-rolls-on


The price of progress is about to steam roll through a couple of Valley neighborhoods.

Plans to expand the Loop 202 South Mountain Freeway are moving forward, creating some very real concerns for homeowners and businesses.

Residents living along Pecos Road in Ahwatukee are getting ready to pack up and move out.

[N830MH]

Chandler City Council on Oct. 23 unanimously approved a $687,500 study of future high-capacity transit along Arizona Avenue, inching the city closer to possible light rail, bus rapid transit or street-car system.

Because the corridor runs north through Mesa, the Fista-Downtown Chandler Transit Corridor Study Agreement must be approved by Mesa City Council and Valley Metro Rail Board, which is expected to come in November. The study likely would begin in early 2015 and be complete by late 2016.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/chandler/2014/10/28/chandler-approves-second-arizona-avenue-transit-study/18062139/

It would be nice to bring the light-rail to Chandler, AZ.

Let the speculation begin.

[Classical in Phoenix]

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/10/the-mayor-of-phoenix-talks-about-better-transit-in-a-car-reliant-city/382148/

Mayor Stanton gets a transit interview on a global stage!

[CrestedSaguaro]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/chandler/2014/10/28/chandler-approves-second-arizona-avenue-transit-study/18062139/

It would be nice to bring the light-rail to Chandler, AZ.

Let the speculation begin.

I took a drive down Arizona Blvd to the DC last night to just kill some time and I was fairly surprised at the amount of foot traffic I saw. I think a line running down Arizona could do really well. The DC could also do with MUCH less parking and much more retail...especially up against Arizona Blvd and I think an LR line could open the doorway for that.

[Obadno]

I took a drive down Arizona Blvd to the DC last night to just kill some time and I was fairly surprised at the amount of foot traffic I saw. I think a line running down Arizona could do really well. The DC could also do with MUCH less parking and much more retail...especially up against Arizona Blvd and I think an LR line could open the doorway for that.

I've always thought a chandler loop would be succesfull start at apache Down dobson/Alma school past MCC/hospital fiesta mall, down to Downtown chandler, the back across to Chandler fasion mall, up the price corridor back to tempe.

You get lots of employment/shopping and entertainment riders. Plus many of the parcells on that loop are medium density apartments/homes so I think it would do well.

I also wish they could get a line up Scottsdale road but thats never going to happen so...

[N830MH]

I also wish they could get a line up Scottsdale road but thats never going to happen so...

I think they still negotiating from Scottsdale city council and hopefully, they will be approved in a distant future. They will be at Scottsdale Rd/Rural Rd extension.

[Jjs5056]

I've always thought a chandler loop would be succesfull start at apache Down dobson/Alma school past MCC/hospital fiesta mall, down to Downtown chandler, the back across to Chandler fasion mall, up the price corridor back to tempe.

You get lots of employment/shopping and entertainment riders. Plus many of the parcells on that loop are medium density apartments/homes so I think it would do well.

I also wish they could get a line up Scottsdale road but thats never going to happen so...

I think this is where we need to start considering whether LRT is the best solution vs. other means of mass transit. BRT will be running down Scottsdale/Rural Road from Chandler through Tempe at some point in the future; what about a parallel line along the 101? It seems like that would be the best mode for connecting what is mainly an employment corridor that doesn't need the development impacts of an LRT-type system. It could run adjacent to Price all the way to Germann, with future plans of having it head east to Germann/Cooper and the Airpark area.

Then, a downtown Chandler Streetcar could be implemented, starting at a junction point with BRT at Chandler Blvd/Price Rd and heading east to Arizona Ave, then N/S from Erie to Frye. The line could either extend 1/4 mile to hit Fashion Square or circulators could be combined with BRT and Streetcar at this junction point.

All of this would still connect to the main light rail system if needed by way of Apache/101, where BRT and LRT would intersect.

Light rail has done very well in Phoenix, but every city has a multi-modal system because transit isn't one size fits all. Maybe light rail is the best solution, but I'm just throwing out the idea that there are other options that are more cost-effective, timely and would accomplish the same goals as well, if not better (for example, I think BRT along the 101 would do better than light rail, unless we are talking commuter rail).

[N830MH]

Do we have official date for Central Mesa/Northwest Phoenix extension? When they will open?

[MegaBass]

Do we have official date for Central Mesa/Northwest Phoenix extension? When they will open?

Central Mesa update (http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/prop_reports/October_2014_Report_Card_-_Central_Mesa.pdf) and Northwest I update (http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/prop_reports/October_2014_Report_Cards_-_Northwest_Phase_I.pdf)

[N830MH]

Central Mesa update (http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/prop_reports/October_2014_Report_Card_-_Central_Mesa.pdf) and Northwest I update (http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/prop_reports/October_2014_Report_Cards_-_Northwest_Phase_I.pdf)

Got it, thanks! Hopefully, it will be so successful. They will have to be done sometime in late-2015 & 2016, as well.

[exit2lef]

The latest on the proposed Tempe streetcar:


http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2014/11/28/tempe-streetcar-track-cost-million/19640929/?hootPostID=81d471dd1880362839e7dc8631dc4b03

[N830MH]

The latest on the proposed Tempe streetcar:


http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2014/11/28/tempe-streetcar-track-cost-million/19640929/?hootPostID=81d471dd1880362839e7dc8631dc4b03

Excellent news! Just about time!!! I hope they will be approved sometime in January. Is going to be Tempe Streetcar? Is that very expensive? I don't think they can do that. Light rail is the right choice. I likes light rail. I haven't rode on light rail for a long time.

[dtnphx]

Sky Train starts service to Sky Harbor Terminal 3 next week

The next phase of the Sky Train at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport is slated to open ahead of schedule....

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/12/03/sky-train-starts-service-to-sky-harbor-terminal-3.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2014-12-03&u=34892844144f674e291dd986763848&t=1417644868

[rocksteady]

Sky Train starts service to Sky Harbor Terminal 3 next week

The next phase of the Sky Train at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport is slated to open ahead of schedule....

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/12/03/sky-train-starts-service-to-sky-harbor-terminal-3.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2014-12-03&u=34892844144f674e291dd986763848&t=1417644868

Any word on how the Sky Train is doing as far as ridership since it opened?

[dtnphx]

No one knows, since they there is no driver....

[exit2lef]

Any word on how the Sky Train is doing as far as ridership since it opened?

"One year later, has Sky Train lived up to those lofty expectations?

Airport and city officials say it has, citing passenger-ride counts that have exceeded initial projections by nearly 30 percent. Before the system opened, officials based Sky Train's budget estimates using a projected 7,000 riders per day. Since it opened, Sky Train has averaged just less than 10,000 riders per day."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/04/08/phx-sky-train-marks-year-sky-harbor-airport/7467681/

[rocksteady]

"One year later, has Sky Train lived up to those lofty expectations?

Airport and city officials say it has, citing passenger-ride counts that have exceeded initial projections by nearly 30 percent. Before the system opened, officials based Sky Train's budget estimates using a projected 7,000 riders per day. Since it opened, Sky Train has averaged just less than 10,000 riders per day."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/04/08/phx-sky-train-marks-year-sky-harbor-airport/7467681/

Thanks for the numbers, Exit! I guess they do monitor ridership without a driver. ;) Monthly numbers are far higher than I was expecting, actually. I didn't realize it has already been well over a year since it opened!

[N830MH]

Sky Train starts service to Sky Harbor Terminal 3 next week

The next phase of the Sky Train at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport is slated to open ahead of schedule....

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/12/03/sky-train-starts-service-to-sky-harbor-terminal-3.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2014-12-03&u=34892844144f674e291dd986763848&t=1417644868

Really? Wow! That's early, huh? I thought we have wait for next January 2015?

[HooverDam]

Really? Wow! That's early, huh? I thought we have wait for next January 2015?

Makes up for the original leg taking so long to open. :)

[PHX31]

Is there a map of the proposed Tempe streetcar route? I haven't followed it very closely and it seems to always change.

I read the above article and they mentioned revealing the proposed stops, are those constantly changing too?

[exit2lef]

Is there a map of the proposed Tempe streetcar route? I haven't followed it very closely and it seems to always change.

I read the above article and they mentioned revealing the proposed stops, are those constantly changing too?

The latest: http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/prop_photos/Tempe_Streetcar_Project_Update_12-14_E-Sp.pdf

[CrestedSaguaro]

Speaking of Sky Harbor, some pretty cool news...

PHOENIX -- The Transportation Security Administration named Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport as its airport of the year during a November awards ceremony.

The TSA said Sky Harbor received the award because it showed more than 42 million annual passengers "exceptional courtesy and attentiveness" while maintaining a high level of security.

"We are honored to receive this award on behalf of those employees who, each and every day, work hard to ensure security and provide exceptional customer service," Sky Harbor Acting Aviation Director Tamie Fisher said in a release. "We are proud of the efforts our TSA team has made to helping us achieve our goal of providing a world class airport experience to every customer every day."

The award likely serves as a sign of improvement for the airport, as it came under fire last year for a high number of TSA complaints from disabled passengers, including the alleged harassment of a Phoenix woman wearing a prosthetic breast.


http://ktar.com/22/1788308/TSA-names-Phoenix-Sky-Habor-airport-of-year

[PHX31]

The latest: http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/prop_photos/Tempe_Streetcar_Project_Update_12-14_E-Sp.pdf

Cool, thanks.

Has an extension past Marina Heights been discussed? Seems like a no-brainer in the future.

[exit2lef]

Cool, thanks.

Has an extension past Marina Heights been discussed? Seems like a no-brainer in the future.

I've heard informal, unofficial talk that if Mesa ever wanted to get on board, an extension to Riverview Park and the new Cubs stadium might be possible. I think that would make a lot of sense.

[HooverDam]

The latest: http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/prop_photos/Tempe_Streetcar_Project_Update_12-14_E-Sp.pdf

boy I really hate/worry about that portion on Mill. It's such a perfect street, why mess it up? Plus thats the section that they want to do w/ out overhead wires, driving up the project cost. Just doing it entirely on Ash seems much more sensible.

I'm also not a fan of Streetcars that operate in mixed traffic, which I imagine it's likely to do on Mill. That street is already slow and the streetcar could really get knocked off it's timetable there.

[rocksteady]

Speaking of Sky Harbor, some pretty cool news...



http://ktar.com/22/1788308/TSA-names-Phoenix-Sky-Habor-airport-of-year My friend and I travel a lot for work and we always say of all the airports we've been to that Sky Harbor is one of the absolute best, and yet it is so highly underrated and talked about. Glad to see this recognition.

[Jjs5056]

boy I really hate/worry about that portion on Mill. It's such a perfect street, why mess it up? Plus thats the section that they want to do w/ out overhead wires, driving up the project cost. Just doing it entirely on Ash seems much more sensible.

I'm also not a fan of Streetcars that operate in mixed traffic, which I imagine it's likely to do on Mill. That street is already slow and the streetcar could really get knocked off it's timetable there.

I've complained enough about the streetcar so I won't go into another rant - I think the route is completely pointless and redundant given that light rail already makes the entire planned area mass-transit accessible - but the downtown portion is pretty silly. Farmer or College would've been nice options, or Ash as a last resort, given that development is part of the scoring system and the entire route is essentially developed.

FYI, the entire line will run in mixed traffic, and the Mill portion will only be 1-directional (running north I believe; Ash will run south). Given that, I doubt it will interfere much with the existing streetscape.

[N830MH]

Makes up for the original leg taking so long to open. :)

Yeah, really!! I am going to airport to take a pictures new terminal 2/3 station next week. I am looking forward to it!!!!

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/nowdeparting/2014/12/08/sky-harbor-sky-train-expands-to-terminal-3/20087309/

Today the big day for PHX SkyTrain. The terminal 2/3 station is open today!!!!

Happy Traveling!!!

The next stage 2 to Rental Car Center will be open sometimes in year of 2020. Waiting for the approved to start construction the Rental Car Center Station.

[dtnphx]

New Round of Federal Funds Advances I-11 Project

http://azbex.com/new-round-of-federal-funds-advances-i-11-project/

[HooverDam]

New Round of Federal Funds Advances I-11 Project

http://azbex.com/new-round-of-federal-funds-advances-i-11-project/

what a boondoggle

[nickw252]

what a boondoggle

Why?

[HooverDam]

Why?

This isn't a project about transportation. Look at the parts of the word that make up transportation. "Trans" and "port." That is, to move things from one place to another. One could argue this project was about that if it went from Phoenix to Las Vegas in a fairly direct manner, however, that's not the case.

The I-11 is a sprawl generation project. It's slated to miss Phoenix, if you define the Phoenix area in any reasonable way, entirely. The route will go west of the White Tank Mountains, and of course be saddled with numerous on/off ramps, thus opening up thousands of acres in Buckeye and yet to be incorporated communities for sprawl.

Further, it will necessitate a new interchange somewhere along the I-10. Add that to the existing 303, 101, I-17 and SR-51 interchanges and the soon to be Loop 202 interchange and traffic along the I-10 will likely be even more of a headache during rush hour.

Every time you build a place where cars can enter/exit the system (the highway) you give a chance for increased congestion. As alluded to above w. the I-11's ability to produce sprawl also run into the issue of induced demand. That is, you get about as many cars as you build highways for. Don't build it, they won't come. Highways initially have a slight impact to reduce congestion, but once they're lined with KFC's, Wal Marts, and cul-de-sac stucco neighborhoods they become bogged down.

If we really need a highway between Phoenix and Vegas, it should actually ya know...go to Phoenix and Vegas. At the very least it ought to come into Phoenix to the 303 near Sun City West (if not to the 101). Instead the I-11 will take a southward jaunt somewhere near Wickenburg and connect with the I-10 around where the 85 currently connects.

And what will happen if the 10 and 11 meet near the 85? ADOT will say "we must upgrade the 85 to Interstate standards! It is a bottle neck!" And so that will happen, because it must! Because ADOT said so, and they're "experts." And so another new sprawl corridor from Buckeye to Gila Bend will be opened, and we'll get more KFC's and more Wal Marts and more horrifying cul-de-sac stucco neighborhoods.

And ADOT's planners will look at the map and note the I-11, 85 and I-8 make almost a loop! And they love nothing more than loop. Loops! So a new freeway will be proposed running Northeast from Casa Grande to connect with the ever so necessary SR-24 Gateway Freeway. And then there will be half of a glorious loop! Thankfully the Tonto National Forest and Mountains will save us from the loop completing itself. But ADOT will do what they can to make a circle.

The 89 between Wickenburg and Prescott will become "outdated" and need to be upgraded to Interstate standards, and so it will be. Then our glorious loop will grow some more. The 404 we can call it, or maybe the 505!

http://i.imgur.com/Gs21PfF.jpg

[Obadno]

This isn't a project about transportation. Look at the parts of the word that make up transportation. "Trans" and "port." That is, to move things from one place to another. One could argue this project was about that if it went from Phoenix to Las Vegas in a fairly direct manner, however, that's not the case.

The I-11 is a sprawl generation project. It's slated to miss Phoenix, if you define the Phoenix area in any reasonable way, entirely. The route will go west of the White Tank Mountains, and of course be saddled with numerous on/off ramps, thus opening up thousands of acres in Buckeye and yet to be incorporated communities for sprawl.

Further, it will necessitate a new interchange somewhere along the I-10. Add that to the existing 303, 101, I-17 and SR-51 interchanges and the soon to be Loop 202 interchange and traffic along the I-10 will likely be even more of a headache during rush hour.

Every time you build a place where cars can enter/exit the system (the highway) you give a chance for increased congestion. As alluded to above w. the I-11's ability to produce sprawl also run into the issue of induced demand. That is, you get about as many cars as you build highways for. Don't build it, they won't come. Highways initially have a slight impact to reduce congestion, but once they're lined with KFC's, Wal Marts, and cul-de-sac stucco neighborhoods they become bogged down.

If we really need a highway between Phoenix and Vegas, it should actually ya know...go to Phoenix and Vegas. At the very least it ought to come into Phoenix to the 303 near Sun City West (if not to the 101). Instead the I-11 will take a southward jaunt somewhere near Wickenburg and connect with the I-10 around where the 85 currently connects.

And what will happen if the 10 and 11 meet near the 85? ADOT will say "we must upgrade the 85 to Interstate standards! It is a bottle neck!" And so that will happen, because it must! Because ADOT said so, and they're "experts." And so another new sprawl corridor from Buckeye to Gila Bend will be opened, and we'll get more KFC's and more Wal Marts and more horrifying cul-de-sac stucco neighborhoods.

And ADOT's planners will look at the map and note the I-11, 85 and I-8 make almost a loop! And they love nothing more than loop. Loops! So a new freeway will be proposed running Northeast from Casa Grande to connect with the ever so necessary SR-24 Gateway Freeway. And then there will be half of a glorious loop! Thankfully the Tonto National Forest and Mountains will save us from the loop completing itself. But ADOT will do what they can to make a circle.

The 89 between Wickenburg and Prescott will become "outdated" and need to be upgraded to Interstate standards, and so it will be. Then our glorious loop will grow some more. The 404 we can call it, or maybe the 505!

http://i.imgur.com/Gs21PfF.jpg

The 60--88---199---87-260--- nacl top camp verde

My god he is right.


But isnt the 11 supposed ot go all the way down to the Mexican border and eventualy up to canada?

Also I do wish the highway to Vegas was bigger that road through wikiup along th e93 is dangerous

[DevilsRider]

They've been widening 93 between Las Vegas and Wickenburg for at least a decade. When that is finally completed, and it's separated highway all the way through, the roadway will be much safer.

BUT. Hoover is absolutely right about the unnecessary-ness of the north-south segment of the I-11 corridor. Instead of going from Wickenburg due south to I-10/SR-85, it should follow US-60 into SR-303, which can then carry the traffic to I-10. From SR-303/I-10, you can take I-10 (or South Mountain freeway to I-10, if that ever happens either) all the way to Tucson. From there, I-19 already goes to the border with Mexico. at Nogales.

With three existing North-South corridors that this traffic can use (SR-303, SR-101, and I-17 via SR-74), plus US-60/Grand Ave to downtown, there is absolutely no need to build an entire new freeway corridor in the middle of nowhere.

That is, unless the goal is to line the pockets of all the developers who own the land west of the White Tanks, and keep ADOT's freeway contractors in business.

The 60--88---199---87-260--- nacl top camp verde

My god he is right.


But isnt the 11 supposed ot go all the way down to the Mexican border and eventualy up to canada?

Also I do wish the highway to Vegas was bigger that road through wikiup along th e93 is dangerous

[N830MH]

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Threat-of-bus-strike-looms-over-Phoenix-bus-riders-286834311.html

PHOENIX -- A possible bus strike could once again mean delays for Phoenix commuters who rely on public transportation.
Members of Amalgamated Transit Union Local 1433 are scheduled to vote Monday and Tuesday on a contract offer from First Transit, which operates more than a dozen of Valley Metro's most-traveled bus routes in Phoenix. That includes the lines that run up and down Thomas and Indian School roads.

Not another bus strike again! :maddown::maddown: Arrrggghhhh!!! Gosh! Not again!!!!

[N830MH]

Hi All,

Here some photos the terminal 3 station. It's beautiful!!! Gorgeous!! We really likes it lots.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c161/ScottysAir/T3Station1.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c161/ScottysAir/Escatator.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c161/ScottysAir/Platform.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c161/ScottysAir/T3Platform.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c161/ScottysAir/WalktoT3a.jpg

Video of PHX SkyTrain to terminal 3 station.

w4JLiJWCK0I

Enjoy!

[PHXFlyer11]

Hi All,

Here some photos the terminal 3 station. It's beautiful!!! Gorgeous!! We really likes it lots.

Enjoy!

Thank you for sharing these! I never fly out of T3, so I wouldn't have seen. The station is the best I've seen. The floor design is awesome compared to the others!

[PHXFlyer11]

Interesting detailed map I had not seen:
http://azbex.com/phoenix-studies-southern-route-for-expanding-light-rail/

I am a little skeptical about how much development this will spur in South Phoenix, but not skeptical of the demand for this line from riders.

Most excited about what this could do to the warehouse district. Also, this would male Central Station a true hub with line extending in four directions (eventually).

The other positive in my mind is the stop near the tracks which would be valuable if we ever get that damn commuter rail going!

[Jjs5056]

I actually think it was really poor planning that this line won't be opening until the 2030's. Agreed that potential development is wishful thinking, but there is a serious demand for mass transit along this corridor. A huge percentage of households along the route are car-less and rely on bike/bus currently.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will spur much investment within the Warehouse District. The closest stop is planned for Lincoln, which is on the very southern border and quite far from any existing building stock that could be potentially converted. A stop on either Buchanan or Madison would've been more enticing from a potential investment standpoint, but Lincoln is closer to actual residential neighborhoods in Grant/Central Parks.

The stop really isn't close enough for a link to potential commuter rail, either. I'm no expert on transit planning, but given the proximity of Union Station, it would seem like it would've been best longterm for it to have run west on Lincoln, north on 3rd Ave (where a future stop could be added where it crosses Union Station), and then connect to the Capitol Mall tracks at 3rd Ave and Jefferson? That would at least set the potential up for Union Station to one day serve 3 light rail lines, commuter rail, and passenger rail. A revitalized Union Station would certainly impact the Warehouse District more than just a Lincoln/Central Ave stop will.

By the 2030's, with no plan in sight to ever restore Union Station, I think any chance at the Warehouse District becoming anything more than a cheap place for startup and small businesses to lease/own space will be long gone. We've already seen the start of that trend with the Trombetta Bros and Jackson's on 3rd warehouses being occupied by 9-5 businesses... nothing wrong in theory with that kind of economic development, but it just isn't the kind that will bring nightlife, residential, or entertainment to the area which is, IMO, a shame given its prime location adjacent to the venues and CityScape.

Meanwhile, with all of this planning happening, it seems rather premature that Central Station is being developed. Since it looks like Union Station is being ignored as any kind of potential asset, Central Station is going to the convergence of multiple light rail and bus lines in the future. It seems like that would necessitate something more than just a massive parking garage with bus pull-outs, which is what is being built according to the SmithPartners plan. A more modern-day version of Union Station with retail uses and better plan for integrating the light rail stations (and taking advantage of vertical real estate, as well, instead of only developing 1/4 of the lot with apartments) seems like a better longterm vision. But, what do I know?

[Jjs5056]

I've been reading a lot of articles on this website - http://www.humantransit.org/ - and, while the writer is heavily pro-bus which I'm not always in agreement with, he makes really great points and gives some good insights as a transit planner.

One of the issues that resonated with me was a post where he talked about the importance of identifying a need for transit within a community first, then selecting the mode of transit that best meets that need; rather than trying to force a mode of transit throughout a city. I think this is one of Phoenix's biggest problems - it has been all about the light rail, without a plan that integrates multiple modes of transit where they make the most sense. IMO, the starter line, current extensions, and south Phoenix line are about the only ones that make sense as light rail. Instead, there are places where light rail will function as nothing more than grade-separated streetcar (Tempe) and areas where it will be used in place of commuter rail (freeway medians).

The Capitol Mall extension, for example, could easily be part of a streetcar line that served it, Grand Ave, and the Fairgrounds (while commuter rail would be planned for the corridor planned along I-10 West). BRT could run in the center of the 7's.

Also, more and more I think we were also sold a raw deal by the City with regards to Central Station. Regardless of transit plan, it's going to be the epicenter of multiple rail lines and buses. It would have been great for it to have become an extension of Civic Space as a retail plaza with food trucks and shade structures, with a 2-story annex along Polk with a balcony on the 2nd floor serving as a pedestrian bridge to the other side. It's rare for a bus terminal to be so centrally located, and this could have become one of the few areas in downtown with the built-in number of pedestrians to support a retail plaza; and it would've been nice to have funneled that activity into the park, etc. Instead, we're getting a massive parking garage on 3/4 of the lot, and a suburban apartment tower that has 3 blank sides and a 4th facing a private drive.

[Classical in Phoenix]

I like the idea of a street car for the Capital Mall.

[Jjs5056]

I like the idea of a street car for the Capital Mall.

It makes much more sense, given that it will need to make numerous stops at frequently-placed stations in order to really serve the area, which degrades the speed - and, therefore, the value - of light rail, but is ideal for streetcar. That same kind of service (numerous stops) makes sense to serve the Grand Ave arts district before heading toward the Fairgrounds area. Then, true commuter service could be provided for the I-10W corridor.

Tempe has a similar problem in that they're blindly promoting streetcar as a major system for its transportation network according to the 2040 plan just released. With light rail already servicing downtown, their focus should be on heavier forms of transit that run N-S; ideally, BRT from Chandler Blvd. to SkySong with an upgraded transit center at Rural/University, along with BRT from Priest/Washington to Priest/Baseline to serve Fountainhead, which they have outlined as a major employment hub yet ignored in terms of major transit planning.

The starter line is, well, a non-starter as it essentially overlaps with the light rail's reach and doesn't provide a faster mode of transportation than simply walking or biking (either to the destination or to the nearest LRT stop). They're heavily promoting the bike-friendliness of the streetcars - why? Why would anyone ride their bike to a streetcar station which will ultimately get them to their destination more slowly than if they had continued on bike? This doesn't even take into account their efficient Orbit system of buses.

The planned extensions along Rio Salado seem short-sighted, as well, as I don't think an entire transit mode should be planned to serve 2-3 big destinations that are hugely auto-centric (nobody is going to go shopping at TMP and lug their bags onto a streetcar) or seasonal (Cubs Stadium). Just run buses from 3rd/Mill to 8th/Dobson at varying frequencies depending on time of day (to hit the office parks and TMP) and season (to hit the Cubs Stadium).

[Freeway]

I've been reading a lot of articles on this website - http://www.humantransit.org/ - and, while the writer is heavily pro-bus which I'm not always in agreement with, he makes really great points and gives some good insights as a transit planner.

One of the issues that resonated with me was a post where he talked about the importance of identifying a need for transit within a community first, then selecting the mode of transit that best meets that need; rather than trying to force a mode of transit throughout a city. I think this is one of Phoenix's biggest problems - it has been all about the light rail, without a plan that integrates multiple modes of transit where they make the most sense. IMO, the starter line, current extensions, and south Phoenix line are about the only ones that make sense as light rail. Instead, there are places where light rail will function as nothing more than grade-separated streetcar (Tempe) and areas where it will be used in place of commuter rail (freeway medians).

The Capitol Mall extension, for example, could easily be part of a streetcar line that served it, Grand Ave, and the Fairgrounds (while commuter rail would be planned for the corridor planned along I-10 West). BRT could run in the center of the 7's.

Also, more and more I think we were also sold a raw deal by the City with regards to Central Station. Regardless of transit plan, it's going to be the epicenter of multiple rail lines and buses. It would have been great for it to have become an extension of Civic Space as a retail plaza with food trucks and shade structures, with a 2-story annex along Polk with a balcony on the 2nd floor serving as a pedestrian bridge to the other side. It's rare for a bus terminal to be so centrally located, and this could have become one of the few areas in downtown with the built-in number of pedestrians to support a retail plaza; and it would've been nice to have funneled that activity into the park, etc. Instead, we're getting a massive parking garage on 3/4 of the lot, and a suburban apartment tower that has 3 blank sides and a 4th facing a private drive.

I think it's important to look at demographics instead of just imagining a mode of transit that would look nice rolling down the street. I agree that we need transit that best meets the need, but it's really also vital to realize where there's demand and where little demand exists to justify the cost. I don't really see the issue with the expanded use of a circulator bus, like DASH, to cover the area around the Capitol. I work closely with ADOT employees who work in the complex around 17th Avenue and Jefferson. I often hear entertaining stories about their adventures on the existing DASH service that serves the Capitol area. Even though the area is heavily populated with state employees, it seems that the overwhelming demographic of DASH users are the homeless who live at a nearby shelter. There is no justification for spending so much money on localized rail around the Capitol area when it really seems like the demand isn't there. The DASH bus, with all its faults, seems to serve the demand for the people who use public transit in that area. I just see any future streetcar being populated with homeless people at the nearby shelter who just want to get out of the heat and ride around all day.

I know that there is a desire to expand transit in Phoenix, but a lot of time and money is spent on planning future transit modes here that make little sense. I take particular issue with the I-10 extension of the light rail, for instance, because it's just too slow. It will serve a demographic of people in west Phoenix who cannot afford a car, but as far as being competitive with POVs, which it needs to be, it's just going to be a severe disappointment. Instead of transit supporters putting a halt to this until there is funding available for faster commuter rail or even a BRT lane on the freeway, people seem to be perfectly content with a train that chugs along at 35 MPH and makes stops at stoplights. That, to me, shows that Phoenix and local transit supporters do not really take context sensitivity seriously. Many just want to see a glossy train chugging down a track.

On another topic, the Central Station proposal is just one of the most baffling proposals I have ever seen. Why the city is taking its 6 year old central transit center, next to a public park, and fully supporting the development of a 30+ story building right in the middle of it is just so confusing. The current transit center is not perfect, primarily the lack of shade for transit users. Plopping an apartment building in the middle of it all, with the requisite huge parking garage, is just so nonsensical. Luckily, we are in an age where next to nothing that is announced in the Downtown area actually comes to fruition. Hopefully the same will ring true with this structure.

[Jjs5056]

I think it's important to look at demographics instead of just imagining a mode of transit that would look nice rolling down the street. I agree that we need transit that best meets the need, but it's really also vital to realize where there's demand and where little demand exists to justify the cost. I don't really see the issue with the expanded use of a circulator bus, like DASH, to cover the area around the Capitol. I work closely with ADOT employees who work in the complex around 17th Avenue and Jefferson. I often hear entertaining stories about their adventures on the existing DASH service that serves the Capitol area. Even though the area is heavily populated with state employees, it seems that the overwhelming demographic of DASH users are the homeless who live at a nearby shelter. There is no justification for spending so much money on localized rail around the Capitol area when it really seems like the demand isn't there. The DASH bus, with all its faults, seems to serve the demand for the people who use public transit in that area. I just see any future streetcar being populated with homeless people at the nearby shelter who just want to get out of the heat and ride around all day.

I know that there is a desire to expand transit in Phoenix, but a lot of time and money is spent on planning future transit modes here that make little sense. I take particular issue with the I-10 extension of the light rail, for instance, because it's just too slow. It will serve a demographic of people in west Phoenix who cannot afford a car, but as far as being competitive with POVs, which it needs to be, it's just going to be a severe disappointment. Instead of transit supporters putting a halt to this until there is funding available for faster commuter rail or even a BRT lane on the freeway, people seem to be perfectly content with a train that chugs along at 35 MPH and makes stops at stoplights. That, to me, shows that Phoenix and local transit supporters do not really take context sensitivity seriously. Many just want to see a glossy train chugging down a track.

On another topic, the Central Station proposal is just one of the most baffling proposals I have ever seen. Why the city is taking its 6 year old central transit center, next to a public park, and fully supporting the development of a 30+ story building right in the middle of it is just so confusing. The current transit center is not perfect, primarily the lack of shade for transit users. Plopping an apartment building in the middle of it all, with the requisite huge parking garage, is just so nonsensical. Luckily, we are in an age where next to nothing that is announced in the Downtown area actually comes to fruition. Hopefully the same will ring true with this structure.

I think we are on the same page. Light rail is currently proposed for the Capitol Mall + I-10 extension, and my point is that light rail - as it is defined, not by how it has necessarily been used in Phoenix - doesn't make sense for either option. It's way more of an investment in the Capitol Mall than is needed; as you mention, even extended bus service is a better match for the demand than what is supposed to be a form of heavy transit. Meanwhile, light rail isn't heavy enough for the purpose it is trying to serve by running down I-10. For that, investment in commuter rail is the better longterm solution.

My suggestion for a streetcar to serve the Capitol Mall, rather than bus, is for a few reasons. 1) You mention the homeless 'problem.' Expanded bus or DASH would have the same issue, but in the long-run, streetcar has the potential to spur redevelopment that bus hasn't proven to encourage, thus making it likely that the homeless would eventually make up less and less of the ridership. 2) It is more of a comprise solution that shows investment into an area that does need mass transit service improvements, while not investing money wastefully in a system that doesn't match present or future needs. 3) A streetcar that serves the Capitol Mall can also be used or expanded to serve areas like the Warehouse District, Grand Avenue, Roosevelt Row, the Fairgrounds, McDowell Road, and/or Garfield. In these areas, a streetcar DOES make sense, so why not make small tweaks to include the Capitol Mall within that system? Complement it with DASH, don't replace it. And, at worst, you have a system that is more 'sustainable' for when gas prices for the DASH become a budget-buster, that can encourage redevelopment in a neighborhood that has been neglected (St. Matthews), and that might rejuvenate the Capitol and be used by tourists to travel between it, downtown, and the other hubs that the system would connect.

And, yes, everyone wants to see a shiny 30+ apartment tower go up, but if it does, the City will have lost out on a huge opportunity to make Central Station into something much bigger and better for the public's use. The public, outside of those who will be able to afford the apartments, is getting an extra parking garage on a site that will be the center of multiple light rail lines, multiple bus lines, maybe a streetcar line (it's being studied for the future), and is adjacent to the only successful urban park we have. Terrific.

Meanwhile, this article sums up why I think streetcar is a total waste of money for Tempe. Walking and cycling, either to the final destination or to the nearest light rail stop, will take as much - or less - time as riding the streetcar will in its currently proposed form.

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/01/she-tried-commuting-to-work-by-streetcar-it-took-as-long-as-walking/384734/

[MegaBass]

Tempe To Build Multi-Use Path Over Abandoned Gas Line
(http://kjzz.org/content/97312/tempe-build-multi-use-path-over-abandoned-gas-line)
An area in Tempe once used to cover an interstate gas pipeline is being converted into a community transportation pathway.

The half-mile path behind residential homes in central Tempe stretches from Rural Road to Kiwanis Park. The wide alley-like space covers an abandoned El Paso Natural Gas line. The city is spending about $1.3 million in mostly federal funds to convert it into a multi-use transportation path. The paved area will include public art, landscaping and lighting.

Eric Iwersen with Tempe Public Works said the path will connect the park, existing bike lanes and main roads.

“Recognizing that we can’t build our streets any bigger and build our way out of transportation dilemmas with just vehicle travel, we have to provide attractive and convenient alternatives," he said. "And so these pathways are a portion of that transportation system that we’re actively building.”

Iwersen said construction will take about six months to complete, starting in March.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2015/02/03/downtown-mesa-light-rail/22791163/

Great news! Metro Light Rail is set to open for Central Mesa extension sometimes in this fall 2015.

[Jjs5056]

Tempe To Build Multi-Use Path Over Abandoned Gas Line
(http://kjzz.org/content/97312/tempe-build-multi-use-path-over-abandoned-gas-line)

That's a great use of federal funds. Too bad the path isn't located more toward downtown/the central city.

If the Warehouse District ever had a decent amount of residential/commercial density, I would love to see the same thing happen to the space adjacent to the railroad tracks stretching between the Stadium and Union Station.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/02/07/light-rail-streetcar-focus-proposed-city-sales-tax/22988689/

Light-rail expansion, a downtown streetcar and improvements to make public transportation more convenient and comfortable are on a more than $30 billion transportation wish list developed by Phoenix leaders — and city taxpayers may soon be asked whether to fund it.

Can they extend the light rail to University of Phoenix Stadium or further north from Paradise Valley Mall to Desert Ridge Marketplace? Will they consider it?

Let the speculation begin.

[HooverDam]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/02/07/light-rail-streetcar-focus-proposed-city-sales-tax/22988689/



Can they extend the light rail to University of Phoenix Stadium or further north from Paradise Valley Mall to Desert Ridge Marketplace? Will they consider it?

Let the speculation begin.

I don't think there's any reason to go beyond PV Mall. I'm skeptical about going to PV Mall at all in the first place. Every other extension probably deserves priority over that one, as the area is low density and not historically transit dependent or transit friendly.

[Jjs5056]

I don't think there's any reason to go beyond PV Mall. I'm skeptical about going to PV Mall at all in the first place. Every other extension probably deserves priority over that one, as the area is low density and not historically transit dependent or transit friendly.

I'm slightly hopeful that since the survey asked which routes were deemed most important, that there is a chance that the current plan and schedule will be reworked.

To be honest, I think only the extensions underway + East Mesa+ South Central are necessary. Let other municipalities determine how/if they want to connect to the main light rail line and implement their own mass transit solutions. There are better uses for the limited funding, such as prioritizing the South Central extension, implementing mass transit solutions for areas in the immediate vicinity of downtown, and upgrading the main line so that it meets basic standards of service. I think it's completely absurd that a quasi-commuter rail line is being created along I-10 before light rail is extending to places where it will serve the purpose it is meant to achieve.

IMO, the priorities should be:
1) Finalize East Mesa and NW extensions
2) Fast-track the South Central extension
3) Customer service upgrades: reloadable metro cards, real-time data, express routes during peak hours
4) Streetcar Phase I: Central Station down Van Buren to Lower Grand at 7th Ave; to the Capitol at 15th Ave/Jefferson; to the Fairgrounds at McDowell/15th Ave; to Roosevelt/7th Ave
5) Planning for true commuter rail service throughout the region
6) True BRT along the 7's from Bethany Home to Washington
7) High capacity transit study and implementation for the Biltmore area (I could see LRT possibly being extended here)
8) True BRT along Thomas and possibly Indian School

Meanwhile, the individual municipalities could work on implementing things like:
1) BRT along Gilbert Road
2) Streetcar through downtown Chandler
3) BRT along the Price Road corridor
4) Streetcar through downtown Glendale

And, while we're at it, Tempe should completely abandon its plan for a streetcar that will be hugely unsuccessful as it doesn't provide a faster or more convenient alternative to walking, biking or taking the light rail/bus to any destination along the route. Instead, they should be prioritizing the Fountainhead Area, South Tempe neighborhoods, and Papago Park region. I think the following would make much more sense:
1) BRT from Chandler Blvd to McDowell Rd
2) LRT from McDowell Rd through Galvin Parkway, down Priest until Southern, and terminating at Southern/Rural with a new transit center at the civic plaza to connect BRT and LRT.

[exit2lef]

II think it's completely absurd that a quasi-commuter rail line is being created along I-10 before light rail is extending to places where it will serve the purpose it is meant to achieve.



Agreed, but the west side of Phoenix and the metropolitan area cannot be ignored. I'd amend your plan to include the following:

1) Build BRT in the I-10 median to serve park-and-ride commuters. Switch the LRT alignment to Thomas. In other words, maintain the two corridors but swap the modes.

2) Build an LRT extension on Camelback through Alhambra up to Downtown Glendale serving Grand Canyon University along the way. If Glendale then wants to extend it even farther out to the sports sprawl of Westgate, let them do that on their own dime.

[Jjs5056]

Agreed, but the west side of Phoenix and the metropolitan area cannot be ignored. I'd amend your plan to include the following:

1) Build BRT in the I-10 median to serve park-and-ride commuters. Switch the LRT alignment to Thomas. In other words, maintain the two corridors but swap the modes.

2) Build an LRT extension on Camelback through Alhambra up to Downtown Glendale serving Grand Canyon University along the way. If Glendale then wants to extend it even farther out to the sports sprawl of Westgate, let them do that on their own dime.

I'll admit I've not familiar enough with the west part of town enough to make informed opinions on how transit funding should be spent. But, I would think it was ridiculous if LRT was built along the 202 into South Chandler as much as I think the I-10 corridor is ridiculous. Not only is that NOT the intent of LRT, it just isn't fair that one section of the Valley is essentially getting commuter-level service while areas like Tempe get streetcar-level service.

Curious - where do you see those two recommendations (and I agree that GCU is an important connection; not completely sold on downtown Glendale - is it close to GCU? Otherwise, might a streetcar make more sense?) falling in terms of priority? Before or after the South Central extension, for example? I assume just before?

If a Camelback extension is built westward, I'd support an eastward extension to 24th Street at the same time. The Camelback Corridor is here to stay, so might as well try and encourage more urban-scaled development.

[N830MH]

If a Camelback extension is built westward, I'd support an eastward extension to 24th Street at the same time. The Camelback Corridor is here to stay, so might as well try and encourage more urban-scaled development.

I think they will extend from 24th St to 44th St or Scottsdale Rd. There is mall is on Camelback Rd & Scottsdale Rd. I think they could have extend the light rail to Scottsdale Rd & Camelback Rd.

[Jjs5056]

I think they will extend from 24th St to 44th St or Scottsdale Rd. There is mall is on Camelback Rd & Scottsdale Rd. I think they could have extend the light rail to Scottsdale Rd & Camelback Rd.

If Scottsdale was on board with light rail, a connection via Camelback would be a no-brainer. Unfortunately, they've continually voted against the system. Additionally, there are some tough decisions to make when considering how LRT would travel through the PV section of Camelback.

[plinko]

^Even if Scottsdale EVER got on board with LRT, I think you will see a day with 2 feet of snow in Phoenix before you EVER see a segment down Camelback or Indian School through the Arcadia area. (...amused at the thought of the staff getting off at a stop for the Phoenician...)

Scottsdale's hope for connection to LRT is down through Tempe or even up and across the north valley somewhere on an east west line (Cactus? Bell? 101?)

[Jjs5056]

^Even if Scottsdale EVER got on board with LRT, I think you will see a day with 2 feet of snow in Phoenix before you EVER see a segment down Camelback or Indian School through the Arcadia area. (...amused at the thought of the staff getting off at a stop for the Phoenician...)

Scottsdale's hope for connection to LRT is down through Tempe or even up and across the north valley somewhere on an east west line (Cactus? Bell? 101?)

Yes, I guess I meant a 'no-brainer' in terms of convenience in connecting downtown > Biltmore > Scottsdale. But, as I mentioned, the logistics of dealing with the neighborhoods between would be really difficult... too bad tunneling isn't an option. Though, at this point, part of me almost wishes Scottsdale sinks due to their anti-transit attitude. The other part of me sees how much development is going on in Old Town and thinks it would be a great thing for the metro area if it were connected via LRT.

[exit2lef]

Curious - where do you see those two recommendations (and I agree that GCU is an important connection; not completely sold on downtown Glendale - is it close to GCU? Otherwise, might a streetcar make more sense?) falling in terms of priority? Before or after the South Central extension, for example? I assume just before?

If a Camelback extension is built westward, I'd support an eastward extension to 24th Street at the same time. The Camelback Corridor is here to stay, so might as well try and encourage more urban-scaled development.

I'd probably set priorities like this:

Tier 1 -- South Central & State Capitol lines & finish current line to MetroCenter
Tier 2 -- Continue State Capitol line (preferably via Thomas rather than I-10) & Alhambra / Downtown Glendale line

As for Downtown Glendale, I think it's five miles beyond GCU via the usual rectilinear street grid. If the line is run diagonally via Grand, one of the ideas being discussed, then the distance will be slightly shorter.

I'd say Downtown Glendale is a worthwhile destination as long as it is jointly funded by that city. It's a walkable area and neighborhoods along the way have significant potential for redevelopment at higher density.

For me, the real issue is where light rail should go if it is extended beyond Downtown Glendale. The prevailing view seems to be Westgate, but that's a fragile destination always a team relocation away from irrelevance. A far more sensible route would head north along 59th Avenue, which is full of stable trip generators such as Glendale Community College, Sahuaro Ranch Park, Banner Hospital, and Midwestern University.

As for a Biltmore spur, I've heard the idea proposed recently of reaching that area via a north-south line along 24th Street rather than an east-west line along Camelback. In many ways, that makes sense. 24th Street has a more transit-dependent population and less potential for NIMBY opposition than Camelback.

[KEVINphx]

I'd probably set priorities like this:

Tier 1 -- South Central & State Capitol lines & finish current line to MetroCenter
Tier 2 -- Continue State Capitol line (preferably via Thomas rather than I-10) & Alhambra / Downtown Glendale line

As for Downtown Glendale, I think it's five miles beyond GCU via the usual rectilinear street grid. If the line is run diagonally via Grand, one of the ideas being discussed, then the distance will be slightly shorter.

I'd say Downtown Glendale is a worthwhile destination as long as it is jointly funded by that city. It's a walkable area and neighborhoods along the way have significant potential for redevelopment at higher density.

For me, the real issue is where light rail should go if it is extended beyond Downtown Glendale. The prevailing view seems to be Westgate, but that's a fragile destination always a team relocation away from irrelevance. A far more sensible route would head north along 59th Avenue, which is full of stable trip generators such as Glendale Community College, Sahuaro Ranch Park, Banner Hospital, and Midwestern University.

As for a Biltmore spur, I've heard the idea proposed recently of reaching that area via a north-south line along 24th Street rather than an east-west line along Camelback. In many ways, that makes sense. 24th Street has a more transit-dependent population and less potential for NIMBY opposition than Camelback.

To reach the Biltmore it would HAVE to be a shorter distance to spur from Camelback & Central rather than go all that way north on 24th Street from Van Buren . . . . a lot more residential areas to pass through as the area along Camelback from Central to 24th street would NOT be your big NIMBY zone as far as camelback goes. . . that portion has almost zero single family residential and is highly commercialized - a FANTASY would be to go down BOTH 24th & Camelback creating a loop!