Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[mwadswor]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/02/11/20100211ar-south-mountain-freeway-11-ON.html

New South Mountain Freeway plan upsets some in Phoenix

by Cathryn Creno - Feb. 11, 2010 02:20 PM
The Arizona Republic

West Phoenix residents this week got their first look at revised plans for the South Mountain Freeway - which would connect Chandler to Laveen with an eight-lane 22-mile roadway.

The reaction?

"It stinks," said Lilly Ong, who raised her family and hoped to spend her retirement years in a home near Roosevelt Street and 59th Avenue. "My place is for sale."

Ong was among about 70 people who attended the meeting, which included residents who live near the planned freeway path and representatives from the Arizona Department of Transportation, the Maricopa Association of Government and the Federal Highway Administration

The last time freeway planners met officially with west Phoenix residents, plans called for a 10-lane extension of Loop 202 from Interstate 10 in west Chandler to 55th Avenue in west Phoenix.

But plans have changed over the last year because of the decline in sales tax revenues
, said ADOT spokesman Tim Tait.

"Sales tax revenues have been down," Tait said. "The half-cent sales tax (that funds freeway expansion) has been seeing significant declines. That means there is less funding to construct the projects we are building."

Ending the freeway at 59th instead of 55th Avenue would save money because Phoenix owns the right-of-way along 59th, Tait said. The state could simply move utility lines and use the land for free, he said.

Another advantage, Tait said, is that the new route is farther away from a large petroleum storage facility at 51st Avenue and Van Buren Street.

Constructing a smaller freeway - eight lanes instead of 10 - also would save money, he said.

The downside?

The new plan calls for demolition of 64 houses south of Roosevelt Street and east of 59th - instead of 48 homes projected previously. Also, the freeway would take out 680 apartment units that before would have been untouched.

Area homeowners voiced concerns about being reimbursed fairly for property that might be demolished by the freeway. They also expressed fears about increased noise, traffic and pollution around their homes.

The concerns sounded similar to those that have been raised at meetings in Ahwatukee, where more than 100 homes in the freeway path are expected to be destroyed. No one at the meeting expressed support for the planned $1.9 billion freeway.

"I see a lot of older people who have established their family homes. Are they going to get a fair shake?" said David Fultz, an Ahwatukee Foothills resident who attended the meeting to encourage west Valley residents to organize against the Loop 202 extension.

He passed out the e-mail address southmtnloop202@yahoo.com to west Phoenix residents and urged them to get involved.

"If they don't join our group, they should create their own," he said.

Tait said told residents it is possible the Loop 202 extension could be constructed on the Gila River Indian Community. But he cautioned them not to count on it.

"It is important to note that the tribe is opposed to any construction on the free - on or off the reservation," he said, "The formal position of the tribe has not changed."

He said ADOT is about to complete an environmental impact study of the planned freeway path for the federal government. Public hearings on the study will be held this summer and in the fall, he said.

[phxbyrd]

This is getting crazy, everyone's a nimby. This freeway was suposed to originaly connect to the 101 so all the interchanges could be put in one place and the truck traffic could be kept out of Phoenix. Then Tolleson I think said no you can't go through our city even though it seems to be mostly farm land. So now they go from 55th to 59th which is farther west and the number of houses to be destroyed doesn't change that much so what's the problem? My main issue with the freeway was that it be built on the reservation so if that gets done then I say all steam ahead.

[Vicelord John]

I personally don't want a freeway there.

[phxbyrd]

If it can go through the Indian reservation then I think it would be good. S.Mnt. would be untouched, Awtk. would be untouched and it would actualy bring transportation infastructure to an inderutilized part of the county. I think it would really be good for the Indians but you can't always count on them to act in their own best interests.

[glynnjamin]

I dont ever remember it "originally" supposed to link with the 101. Do you have a reference for that? I always remember 51st Ave or 59th Ave being THE places it could go.

Would I rather it go to the 101? Yes...but I don't think that was the plan 50 years ago.

[Don B.]

^ You are correct. The original plan was the 55th Avenue alignment. After some snitting, someone (certainly not Tolleson or residents of Tolleson) suggested a 99th Avenue alignment. Tolleson went nuts because that small landlocked town only has 5 or 6 square miles and they would lose something like 20% of their land to such an alignment.

ADOT then rejected the 99th Ave alignment, partly because for people coming around South Mountain, some of them will be going downtown or to I-17 and dumping them off at 99th Avenue along I-10 is a problem. Yes, they could bail at 51st Avenue, but they would be taking surface streets north to I-10.

We have been talking about this damn freeway for far too long. Just build the frakking thing already.

--don

[phxbyrd]

Don,

wouldn't they just stay on the 10 and go North through DT or catch the 17 by the airport and head west? Couldn't Tolleson have been compensated somehow and still to this day much of the land in question is vacant or used for agriculture.

[combusean]

I saw this as I was looking in Google Maps. This should not exist, but it does:

6028 W 100th Dr, Phoenix, AZ to 6300 W 100th Dr, Phoenix, AZ (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FRbW_QEdYB9Q-SmpXeDyhxYrhzEHETHhLXT8_w%3BFdzk_QEdIwZQ-SmtFR-zfhYrhzHZhn3KucvWfw&q=6028+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ+to+6300+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ&sll=33.417186,-112.195559&sspn=0.006681,0.013733&gl=us&ie=UTF8&ll=33.413048,-112.191095&spn=0.013362,0.01929&t=h&z=16&saddr=6028+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ&daddr=6300+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ)

[Vicelord John]

Sean, what are you referring to? the numbered streets running E/W or the jog in the grid?

[combusean]

^ Both =P

[SunDevil]

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/lightrailblog/73886
LIGHT RAIL BLOG

Sean Holstege and other reporters from The Arizona Republic keep you updated on light rail. For more on light rail, go to lightrail.azcentral.com.
New look train appears Sunday, Metro's ad campaign is here

Metro riders may notice a new-look train as early as Sunday. Work crews were wrapping a single car with advertising for Grand Canyon University.

The train will be in service for six months, and represents the first income Metro will receive in its new advertising campaign. Last fall, Metro hired CBS Outdoor to manage its systemwide ad program. Ads could pop up at stations, on platforms or inside trains. Metro also has opened the door to selling the naming rights for stations and the system overall. Metro is hoping it can generate $350,000 from advertising.

“We are excited because this is our first sale. It allows us to showcase that we are open for advertising business,” Metro spokeswoman Hillary Foose said.




- Sean Holstege

Friday, February 12, 2010 at 04:17 PM

Just a heads up.

Eh, money is money.

[SunDevil]

I saw this as I was looking in Google Maps. This should not exist, but it does:

6028 W 100th Dr, Phoenix, AZ to 6300 W 100th Dr, Phoenix, AZ (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FRbW_QEdYB9Q-SmpXeDyhxYrhzEHETHhLXT8_w%3BFdzk_QEdIwZQ-SmtFR-zfhYrhzHZhn3KucvWfw&q=6028+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ+to+6300+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ&sll=33.417186,-112.195559&sspn=0.006681,0.013733&gl=us&ie=UTF8&ll=33.413048,-112.191095&spn=0.013362,0.01929&t=h&z=16&saddr=6028+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ&daddr=6300+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ)

To be fair, after a little drag and drop it got a little better (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=6028+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ&daddr=33.415305,-112.19101+to:6300+W+100th+Dr,+Phoenix,+AZ&hl=en&geocode=FRbW_QEdYB9Q-SmpXeDyhxYrhzEHETHhLXT8_w%3B%3BFdzk_QEdIwZQ-SmtFR-zfhYrhzHZhn3KucvWfw&gl=us&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=16&via=1&sll=33.412171,-112.190022&sspn=0.010138,0.01929&ie=UTF8&ll=33.413407,-112.189786&spn=0.010138,0.01929&t=h&z=16).

[Vicelord John]

You guys do know thats the freeway alignment, right?

[NIXPHX77]

Saw the GCU train today. also saw mostly single trains - all looked full.

[HX_Guy]

Saw the GCU train today. also saw mostly single trains - all looked full.

Yea, I was on 4 separate trains yesterday, all were single trains, and it was standing room only. I heard a lot of people complaining and asking why aren't they using 2 car trains since it's so packed.

[TAZ4ate0]

Metro has been running single car only trains, on Sundays, for several weeks now. I suppose it is an effort to cut operational costs on a day when they figure there will be the least demand.

Cut costs/maximize revenue is a good thing. :)

[nickkoto]

^
Not always. I've been caught on maybe a dozen single-car trains at 5pm on weekdays now, sometimes when it was 100+ degrees out, and it's never pleasant. There are better times to pull that shit than others and clearly Metro needs to work on it.

It seems like without fail there's never a single-car train between 10am-2pm on a weekday, yet they'll trim the service during prime commuting-home hours.

[TAZ4ate0]

^
What I was referring to has been in the past 3 weeks or so. Earlier this past fall and winter though, they were running 2 car trains on Sunday. What you seem to be talking about is going clear back into this past summer. Yes, they were running a lot of single car trains during the commute hours then; but, as of late last September, I would say 98% of the trains running during rush hour, on weekdays, are at least double car trains. I know this, because for one, I get home before the primary rush hour; and two, I can see the rail directly from my apartment, and have observed said double car trains consistently during the said rush hour(s) of pure madness.

Maybe, they are currently running lots of single car trains on a different section of the line during the commute hour(s), but I don't see why they would.

[mwadswor]

Does anyone know how difficult it is to add/remove cars from the trains? Does it have to be done at the main yard, or can 2-3 car trains work the morning rush hour, leave the extra cars at the end of the lines/other sections of extra track to work as 1 car trains in the middle of the day, then add the cars back on at the prescribed time before the evening rush hour?

One of the dumbest things Valleymetro seems to do in general is mix short and long trains and buses. Understood that every train during the middle of the day doesn't need to be a 2/3 car train and every bus along the 60 or 30 route doesn't need to be an extra-long bus, but making every other or every third train/bus be longer or shorter than all the rest doesn't really do much except make some people more comfortable and others less comfortable for no discernible reason (to the passengers at least). It would make far more sense and be far more passenger friendly if all trains were longer between certain hours and shorter between others. That can't happen for obvious reasons on a 40+ mile bus route, but it seems like it should be possible on a system with storage tracks scattered throughout town.

If it can't be done, does anyone know what makes changing the length of trains so difficult? Can it be learned/can the trains be retrofitted to make it easier? Are there any examples of systems where train cars are added and removed quickly outside of the main yard?

[nickkoto]

^
What I was referring to has been in the past 3 weeks or so. Earlier this past fall and winter though, they were running 2 car trains on Sunday. What you seem to be talking about is going clear back into this past summer. Yes, they were running a lot of single car trains during the commute hours then; but, as of late last September, I would say 98% of the trains running during rush hour, on weekdays, are at least double car trains. I know this, because for one, I get home before the primary rush hour; and two, I can see the rail directly from my apartment, and have observed said double car trains consistently during the said rush hour(s) of pure madness.

Maybe, they are currently running lots of single car trains on a different section of the line during the commute hour(s), but I don't see why they would.

Last time I got stuck on a short train during a peak commuting time was last week.

To be honest, I'm usually on the train a little bit later than peak hours and I can't definitively say it's an everyday thing (I don't think it is), but it just seems like whenever I hop on at about 5pm to go home, there's at least a 1 in 4 chance of it of being a one-car sardine can.

[PhxPavilion]

Does anyone know how difficult it is to add/remove cars from the trains? Does it have to be done at the main yard, or can 2-3 car trains work the morning rush hour, leave the extra cars at the end of the lines/other sections of extra track to work as 1 car trains in the middle of the day, then add the cars back on at the prescribed time before the evening rush hour?

It's simple to add/remove train cars but it's always done at a maintenance yard (except when there are mechanical problems) where the extra/needed train(s) can be stored or added. They could do it on the track but that would affect schedules.

[Vicelord John]

They also store a couple cars at the end stations where there is a hundred or so yards of extra track.

[PhxPavilion]

^ That too. I simply don't think they plan well enough.

[PHX31]

Phoenix misses out on stimulus transit money
by Scott Wong

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2010/02/17/20100217phoenix-sky-train.html

On the one-year anniversary of President Obama's signing of the stimulus plan, the U.S. Department of Transportation on Wednesday said it would funnel $1.5 billion to transit projects across the country.

That includes $63 million for Tucson's modern electric streetcar project, which will run from University Medical Center through the University of Arizona and into downtown.


Phoenix, however, will not receive any of the money.

The city had applied for $122 million in Transportation Improvements Generating Economic Recovery grants to speed up construction of PHX Sky Train. That's the $1.1 billion automated people mover that will connect light rail with Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport terminals.

"We didn't get it in the first round, but we're looking at the second round," said Rep. Ed Pastor, an Arizona Democrat who represents downtown and the airport. A jobs bill, or what critics are calling a second stimulus, is making its way through Congress. "We're not going to give up."

The request marked the largest Phoenix had made for American Recovery and Reinvestment Act money. So far, the city has received about $370 million from the federal stimulus, something city officials estimate has created 1,857 jobs.

Sky Harbor received $11.7 million to upgrade an airport taxiway.

The 4.8-mile Sky Train project is already funded. The first leg of the system, connecting light rail, the east economy parking lot and the heavily used Terminal 4, is scheduled to carry its first riders in 2013. The second phase would extend the train to the rest of the airport terminals and the rental-car center by 2020.

The stimulus money would have accelerated project construction, connecting all three terminals to light rail and the parking lot by 2013.

[mwadswor]

Phoenix misses out on stimulus transit money
by Scott Wong

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2010/02/17/20100217phoenix-sky-train.html

Sorry if this has been asked, I may have missed it, was there a reason Phoenix didn't apply for any money for any of the light rail extensions?

[glynnjamin]

^They weren't "shovel-ready" ... ? Just a guess.

[manorastroman]

$370,000,000/1857 Jobs is just under $200,000 a job. I must be missing something here.

[mwadswor]

$370,000,000/1857 Jobs is just under $200,000 a job. I must be missing something here.

Umm, money buys things other than labor? Land, materials, permitting fees, legal fees...

[PhxPavilion]

Umm, money buys things other than labor? Land, materials, permitting fees, legal fees...

We hope.

[combusean]

Sorry if this has been asked, I may have missed it, was there a reason Phoenix didn't apply for any money for any of the light rail extensions?

Lack of funds to operate it. The Northwest extension was the most shovel ready of all of them (a year out) but it has been put on hold indefinitely. It *will* start up again someday, but not until Phoenix has the money.

[Leo the Dog]

$370,000,000/1857 Jobs is just under $200,000 a job. I must be missing something here.

Nope. Just government doing what it does best: wasting tax dollars, it doesn't have yet. Its not designed to be efficient like the private sector.

[exit2lef]

Sorry if this has been asked, I may have missed it, was there a reason Phoenix didn't apply for any money for any of the light rail extensions?

The central Mesa extension has received federal funding -- not stimulus dollars per se, but instead the "small starts" funding for transit projects. The City of Phoenix, on the other hand, stubbornly insisted on building the northwest extension with its own funds from Transit 2000. Now that those funds are trickling in more slowly, it has had to postpone the northwest extension. I don't know the exact reason for Phoenix's go-it-alone approach, but I suspect it had something to do with wanting to eliminate the years of study required for federal funding. The irony is that now the project is delayed anyway. It would have been more expeditious to go the federal route, even with all the required studies.

[vertex]

Nope. Just government doing what it does best: wasting tax dollars, it doesn't have yet. Its not designed to be efficient like the private sector.

Right.

Like Bank of America and AIG.

[HooverDam]

So I was watching this (http://skyharbor.com/about-sky-harbor/automated-train-animation.html) computer generated video of the PHX Sky Train the other night and got to worrying. I noticed how it'll dip under the railroad tracks and thought b/c of that it might make it difficult for a future connection to Commuter/High Speed rail which would obviously want to have a Sky Harbor stop. So I hit Sky Harbors contact form and asked them if a future connection to commuter rail had been planed for and this is the response I got:

You'll be glad to know that we have planned the PHX Sky Train for a potential link to a commuter rail and designed our guideway to be able to extend to meet a future rail station. We've been working closely with MAG over the past several months in their planning effort to be sure our two projects meet. It's too early to say exactly where the airport station would be for the commuter rail passengers, but our expectation is that it will be west of 44th Street as you note below.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Jay DeWitt
(602) 683-3667

So hooray! Some actual forethought in our infrastructure planning.

[plinko]

^I still say that a better plan would be to have the Sky Train extended the last 2.5 miles from the rental car center to a transit hub downtown (the Patriot's Square block would have been perfect for this). Still, Jackson and Central as a terminus anyone?

That doesn't preclude a commuter rail stop at 44th, but serves DT Phoenix and future West Valley transit riders much more efficiently in terms of getting to the airport. It also would eliminate the stupidity of a two train 25 min+ ride from the airport to downtown vs. an 8 minute cab ride.

[Vicelord John]

the train ride from 3rd/jefferson to 44/washington is less than 10 minutes. Hell, I get from Eastlake to Mill in 13....

[mwadswor]

^I still say that a better plan would be to have the Sky Train extended the last 2.5 miles from the rental car center to a transit hub downtown (the Patriot's Square block would have been perfect for this). Still, Jackson and Central as a terminus anyone?

That doesn't preclude a commuter rail stop at 44th, but serves DT Phoenix and future West Valley transit riders much more efficiently in terms of getting to the airport. It also would eliminate the stupidity of a two train 25 min+ ride from the airport to downtown vs. an 8 minute cab ride.

Phase II of the line won't be done until at least 2020, as long as they don't do anything stupid like point it at a building or runway at the end, I don't see any reason why a phase III couldn't be added. I agree that ending the line DT somewhere makes a lot of sense, but I see no reason why that extension couldn't be added later. It would be stupid to start at that end since terminal 4 is by far the most heavily used terminal and terminal 2 is supposed to be replaced in the near future.

[Tempe_Duck]

So I was watching this (http://skyharbor.com/about-sky-harbor/automated-train-animation.html) computer generated video of the PHX Sky Train the other night and got to worrying. I noticed how it'll dip under the railroad tracks and thought b/c of that it might make it difficult for a future connection to Commuter/High Speed rail which would obviously want to have a Sky Harbor stop. So I hit Sky Harbors contact form and asked them if a future connection to commuter rail had been planed for and this is the response I got:



So hooray! Some actual forethought in our infrastructure planning.

I don't see an issue with the SkyTrain going under the train tracks. What issue were you seeing?

[HooverDam]

The problem with adding a 3rd phase to the Phx Sky Train is cost. This thing in 2 phases is already going to cost the same as the entire 20 mile LRT line. If you're going to extend it over to Phx Union Station for instance thats adding 3 miles to a line thats planned currently to be 5 miles. So we're likely talking about $700M+ to do that, is that really worth it? Is taking the LRT to 44th & Washington and then transferring like airports all over the country really that much of a pain? Additionally since you're extending the track that means you have to add more trains so that Sky Harbor has the same number of trains running through it. How many stops are you going to have? Just one downtown and one at the Rental Car center, or some in between?

Maybe extending it to Central & Buckeye and a future South extension of LRT, as thats only 2 miles...but at some point it seems like diminishing returns.

The Commuter rail stop at 44th St/Washington is really key. It allows all the commuters coming in from the East & SE Valley to just do directly to the airport without having to go downtown and double back. The City already owns the land between Washington, the tracks, 44th St and 41st Place and is clearing it for parking and bus staging. In a commuter rail present future you could put a large parking garage that would serve both Sky Harbor, LRT & Commuter Rail and a big indoor train terminal there as well.

I don't see an issue with the SkyTrain going under the train tracks. What issue were you seeing?

Well if it ducks under the tracks, how is it going to interface with said tracks? The Sky Train has to have the ability to have a future stop that interacts with the commuter rail North of the tracks and West of 44th St. I just wasn't sure (and still am not sure) how they'd put a stop there if the Sky Train isn't on a flat service at that point.

EDIT: http://skyharbor.com/pdf/phx-sky-train/f44th_aerial_viewsub.pdf

As you see in that picture it looks like the Sky Train comes out of the initial station and immediately starts its decent to work its way under the rail bridge. I'd imagine the train has to have a flat portion somewhere so that people with wheelchairs can roll right off of it and onto the Commuter Rail platform station.

[Leo the Dog]

Extending it to DT would be redundant and overkill.

[phxbyrd]

I think you could have a airport stop at 6th St. and Lincoln could work with improved pedestrian paths there noth and west. You could have a dash stop there and the commuter rail airport stop could be at 7th street with one at the east end of the airport as well. People would have to walk a few blocks, oh well. The area connecting south phoenix and the wharehouse district would be greatly improved with better landscaping, shade, lighting and security. It's a free ride with dash and commuter rail service so who would complain at a cost of about 250-300 million.

[mwadswor]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/03/01/20100301metrocuts0301.html

Light-rail cutbacks may preserve late trains on weekend

by Sean Holstege - Mar. 1, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

The Phoenix City Council will vote Tuesday on a budget plan that would preserve late-night weekend service on Metro light rail but would still make cuts that will cost the system an estimated 1.1 million riders a year.

Metro's governing board would still need to approve the cuts in service, but Phoenix's proposal is likely to go through because the city wields the most representation on the board.

City Manager David Cavazos is recommending cutting the peak rush-hour service by two hours and reducing the frequency of trains during the busiest part of the day.

If enacted, the proposed changes would mean trains would run every 12 minutes instead of every 10 minutes during most weekday times.

On weekends, early mornings and evenings, trains would run every 20 minutes. The potentially busiest hours to see an increase from 10- to 20-minute intervals would be 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. and 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. on weekdays.

The changes would take effect in late July.

Combined, the measures would reduce ridership by 1.1 million, or 10 percent of Metro's patronage last year, Metro and Phoenix officials estimated. Earlier this year, Metro estimated that such changes would save $653,000 in operating costs. Combined with other administrative cuts, Phoenix expects to save $930,000 for the fiscal year starting July 1.

The light-rail cutbacks are part of the city's effort to close a $240 million deficit in its general fund and a drop in a transit fund, both caused by recession-driven declines in sales-tax revenue.

Metro will hold the first of two public hearings on service cuts Tuesday night. The second will be held a week later.

Metro's governing board comprises representatives from member cities, which help subsidize costs not covered by fares. Because most of the rail system is in Phoenix, the city has an option to block any budget measure. In service-reduction meetings last month, Phoenix's representative, Councilman Tom Simplot, was joined by others in objecting to eliminating late-night service.

Given the city's influence, the rest of Metro's board is expected to follow Phoenix's lead in setting budget cuts. That's what happened last year when the region's transit agencies, including Metro, raised fares.

In his first major interview, new Metro CEO Steve Banta told The Arizona Republic that he considered the scope of likely service cuts to be "unfortunate, not drastic."

"It's not draconian," he said.

[Leo the Dog]

^^^ Here we go again. More cutbacks on the most successful Valley Metro transit line. 20 miles of track consisted of 10% of total rider-ship for VM!! That is an amazing stat.

[combusean]

Aren't most of the office workers just not using the train at 6-7 AM and wouldn't most of them have cleared about by 6 PM? I can't see this as that bad.

[mwadswor]

Aren't most of the office workers just not using the train at 6-7 AM and wouldn't most of them have cleared about by 6 PM? I can't see this as that bad.

I work 9-6 and my co-worker works 7-4. Were our office in Phoenix (it's in Scottsdale) we would both be affected. Traffic pretty well blows at 6, so I don't think it's that odd a shift.

[nickkoto]

I board the light rail between 6-7 pm pretty regularly from ASU and it's always a pretty full train.

Actually, if a train is 5 minutes late or single car during that hour, it's a very unpleasant experience.

[Leo the Dog]

Aren't most of the office workers just not using the train at 6-7 AM and wouldn't most of them have cleared about by 6 PM? I can't see this as that bad.

This is correct, however, our LR line isn't the traditional transit line in a traditional city. Remember the articles about passenger loads and times, it basically said that unlike most other cities, the LR line remains busy before and after "rush" hours.

[mwadswor]

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/lightrailblog/75423

prise ridership bump for Metro

Metro continues to attract more riders, despite the economic gloom that won’t lift in the Valley.

New ridership figures allow the first opportunity to compare Metro’s performance. For the most part, the signs are very positive for the one-year-old system. In January and February, Metro saw double-digit increases in total monthly boardings, and better than 20 percent increases in average weekday boardings. Here’s a breakdown:



Jan 2010 Jan 2009 % dif Feb 2010 Feb 2009 % dif

Ave Weekday 37,208 30,617 22% 43,509 35,277 23%
Ave Saturday 30,055 31,331 -4% 27,838 31,417 -11%
Ave Sunday 18,101 23,815 -24% 19,876 19,212 3%

TOTAL MONTH 1,003,041 911,883 10% 1,037,398 908,052 14%


In February, Metro broke its same-day passenger record, carrying 55,247 on Thursday the Fourth, and followed up a 52, 746 the next day. Metro saw three 50K-plus days in all of 2009, with its record being on New Years Eve. February marks the first time Metro had back-to-back 50K days. Metro attributes the Feb. 4-5 figures to the Get Motivated seminar.

On the downside, Metro saw a sharp drop in Sunday riders in January, and significant declines in Saturday ridership the next month. Although average weekday ridership is considered the most important metric in the transit industry, the weekend figures will be troubling to Metro, which attracts and atypical patronage.Many people ride Metro for excursions, going to restaurants, sports venues and museums. This is good for transit agencies because it keeps trains busy at times besides traditional commute rush hours, and brings in extra revenue. But the weekend declines are believed to be an indication that Valley residents have less spare cash to spend on such extras as a night out. Weekend ridership will be a number to follow.

The Saturday drop in February is a bit more itneresting. The Sunday drop in January is probably attributable to first time joy riders inflating the numbers last January, I would think.

[PHX31]

/\ I was going to say that any Saturday and Sunday drop from last year would be due to the weekend joyriders that were prevelant at the beginning... which probably lessened after the first 2-3 months of the system being open. I remember families of kids early last year riding light rail for the fun of it. Haven't seen that lately.

[nickkoto]

Might the weather have anything to do with it? It seems like all the rain we've been getting rain in the last month has been happening only on the weekends.

[PHX31]

http://www.cnn.com/video/

Take a look at the above video. I didn't know this happened, and why wasn't it all over the news? Also, I didn't know we had a subway train yay!

EDIT: Damn, can't figure how to link the actual video. Just click the above link, on their video category list click "US", then click the first video - it looks like a Chupacabra and is called "Take a Look at This!".

[glynnjamin]

Some idiot fell on the tracks. That was on Fox10 last night. Is that what your video is showing? The cops pulled him off before the train hit him. It could have been bad. Thought it was drunken john again.

[Vicelord John]

I can handle my alcohol.

[JimInCal]

The CBS affiliate in Los Angeles played that video this morning while I was on my treadmill. I got a kick out of it as I'm sure many So Cal's didn't know Phoenix had a light rail system. That guy was truly lucky. If those guys hadn't been there...we're talkin a couple of body bags.

[TAZ4ate0]

http://www.cnn.com/video/

Take a look at the above video. I didn't know this happened, and why wasn't it all over the news? Also, I didn't know we had a subway train yay!

EDIT: Damn, can't figure how to link the actual video. Just click the above link, on their video category list click "US", then click the first video - it looks like a Chupacabra and is called "Take a Look at This!".


Here ya go....direct link
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2010/03/05/take.a.look.at.this.friday.cnn


Here is another video that is a little longer, same footage, but shows a little more of the interview with the transit workers

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2010/03/05/knxv.dnt.train.rescue.KNXV


LOL, that dude was drunk. Sadly, I have been in nearly the same state after a few parties. I feel for him, but I have never bounced headfirst onto any train tracks thankfully. :rolleyes:

It was a good thing that those transit officers were there to assist, or else, we might have been looking at our first light rail fatality.

[combusean]

Rode the light rail yesterday for the No Pants Az event...tons of fun and a very urban experience. :)

Our light rail kicks ass (table created by me, since Valley Metro can't be bothered to collect and correlate the data in one place like this):


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/don85259/Valleymetroridership.jpg

--don

I think this table doesn't match up with the above table, which I formatted:


J2010 J2009 % dif F2010 F2009 % dif

Ave Weekday 37,208 30,617 22% 43,509 35,277 23%
Ave Saturday 30,055 31,331 -4% 27,838 31,417 -11%
Ave Sunday 18,101 23,815 -24% 19,876 19,212 3%

TOTAL MONTH 1,003,041 911,883 10% 1,037,398 908,052 14%


Your January 2009 figure is low by 2,800, your February figure looks just like the Sunday average, not daily average

[Don B.]

^ I pulled the numbers directly off of Valley Metro's website. I have no idea why they have different numbers now.

--don

[ljbuild]

If it can go through the Indian reservation then I think it would be good. S.Mnt. would be untouched, Awtk. would be untouched and it would actualy bring transportation infastructure to an inderutilized part of the county. I think it would really be good for the Indians but you can't always count on them to act in their own best interests.


What you morons in ahwatuckee (speaking only of the ones who oppose the

freeway) need to know is , THAT FREEWAY WAS PLANNED

LONG BEFORE AHWATUCKEE. So if you dont like the idea of a

freeway bypassing central phoenix and thus reducing congestion, then move

your asses to ALASKA where there are NO FREEWAYS and no need for

them except for a couple in anckorage which are only a few miles long then

turn into two lane routes outside the city.

Phoenix is a growing city and dont forget it's THE FIFTH LARGEST IN THE

NATION.
So yes, any freeway is feasible.:tup: :tup:

[KingLouieLouie76]

Definitely very encouraging news:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/surprise/articles/2010/03/12/20100312-valley-commuter-rail-service.html


Coalition hears projections for Valley commuter-rail service
by Cecilia Chan - Mar. 12, 2010 09:01 AM
The Arizona Republic
A consultant this week said implementing commuter rail service between Wittmann in the Northwest Valley and Queen Creek in the Southeast Valley would yield the most riders.

Rick Pilgrim, senior vice president of URS Corp., presented his recommendation Monday to the Grand Avenue Coalition at the Rio Vista Recreation Center in Peoria. The coalition of 17 agencies, including Surprise, Maricopa Association of Governments and BNSF Railway, wants to put passenger trains on freight lines and link to other modes of transportation, such as light rail and buses.

You have to come to the table with a commitment to run the service and do it for a period of time," said Pilgrim, adding the project would require "state and local funds coupled with federal funds."

The Wittmann-Queen Creek corridor, which combines two routes, is forecast to bring 10,000 passengers a day by 2030, Pilgram said. The projected cost was $16.7 million per mile for passenger service on the Grand Avenue corridor, from Wittmann to central Phoenix, and $14.9 million a mile for the Southeast corridor. In comparison, light rail's cost is $65 million per mile, Pilgrim said.
Peoria Deputy City Manager Susan Daluddung said sales-tax revenue and private/public partnerships are the two models generally used in other areas that have successful commuter-rail service.

"We are positioned at this point in time for Arizona to become a rail state and we need to take the next two years to look for funding opportunities," Daluddung said.

Possible funding sources were offered, including a local gas tax, vehicle registration fee and Maricopa County's half-cent sales tax.
The consultant studied five stand-alone corridors for the region, including for Tempe, Chandler and Yuma, and ranked them for cost-effectiveness of construction.

The Southeast corridor, which would run from central Phoenix into Queen Creek, showed the highest ridership of the five routes at 6,450 a day in 2030.

Although linking the Yuma corridor to the Southeast rail route was considered more cost-effective, the consultant recommended pairing the Southeast corridor with freight rail along Grand Avenue to get the most passengers.
Surprise City Councilwoman Sharon Wolcott said she favored a route that was not a stand-alone but would connect the region. She asked about connections from Phoenix to Las Vegas or Phoenix to Los Angeles.

"One way or the other we need to look at the bigger future," she said.

Peoria Vice Mayor Ron Aames estimated a two-year time frame to pin down revenue sources, which are key. He said the coalition also will look into forming a private-public partnership to bring commuter rail to the Valley.

The Western High-Speed Rail Alliance, which includes the Maricopa Association of Governments, is looking at the viability of a high-speed rail network throughout the Rocky Mountain region. Eventually, it would connect to the Pacific Coast and other regions of the United States.

The Alliance's members are organizations from four Western states: Arizona, Utah, Nevada and Colorado.


Plan for commuter rail takes shape

A consultant this week presented steps the Grand Avenue Coalition could take to implement commuter rail in the Northwest Valley. The consultant's five-year plan for 2010-15 included a number of recommendations.

LEGISLATION

Get legislation passed that would relieve rail operators from liability and provide indemnification from passenger trains on freight lines.

COORDINATE WITH RAILROADS

Develop partnerships to investigate potential agreements. Do advance work on design and operating costs.

FEDERAL FUNDS

Begin process for obtaining federal money.

GOVERNANCE PLAN

Develop and implement a structure to govern commuter-rail service.

LONG-TERM STEPS FOR 2015 AND BEYOND

Obtain committed funding from federal and local sources.

Design, construct and operate initial commuter-rail system.

[HooverDam]

^Nice. Im kinda thinking perhaps it would just be best to start with a Wittmann-Queen Creek sort of line, just so we have something. Once we build that and its successful maybe they're would be more support to connect down to Tucson, LA, LV, etc.

My only complaint with that current plan is, Id like to see it go just a bit further NW to Wickenburg. Seems like a more natural ending point, and I like Wickenburg a lot and would like to be able to hop on a train downtown and take it out there. So its for purely selfish reasons.

[mwadswor]

Definitely very encouraging news:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/surprise/articles/2010/03/12/20100312-valley-commuter-rail-service.html

Rick Pilgrim, senior vice president of URS Corp., presented his recommendation Monday to the Grand Avenue Coalition at the Rio Vista Recreation Center in Peoria. The coalition of 17 agencies, including Surprise, Maricopa Association of Governments and BNSF Railway, wants to put passenger trains on freight lines and link to other modes of transportation, such as light rail and buses.

I don't see Union Pacific on that list. The SE corridor is a nonstarter without UP at least coming to the table to talk about it.

The Wittmann-Queen Creek corridor, which combines two routes, is forecast to bring 10,000 passengers a day by 2030, Pilgram said. The projected cost was $16.7 million per mile for passenger service on the Grand Avenue corridor, from Wittmann to central Phoenix, and $14.9 million a mile for the Southeast corridor. In comparison, light rail's cost is $65 million per mile, Pilgrim said.

Are those costs per mile including the cost of acquiring ROW/rights to ROW? As far as I know, UP has a history of being very beligerent about running its trains on the same tracks as passenger trains. It would drive costs through the roof if UP made passenger trains run on their own (new) tracks.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see commuter rail happen, I'm just not as optimistic about how cheap and easy it will be, especially where UP is concerned. I am much more confident about the Grand corridor though. Rail is needed there, it will be very effective there, and BNSF is sitting at the table and has a much better history of playing nice with passenger trains.

[mwadswor]

I rode the train home from the airport yesterday (sky harbor people mover is looking awesome BTW). I usually walk or take the orbit down to my apartment, but I had my fiance's big suitcase with me and the orbit stops at 7 on Sunday now. I went to get on the 81 bus and the driver told me that my light rail pass doesn't let me transfer onto the bus, I had to buy a bus pass in addition to the light rail pass. I admit, I almost never transfer from the light rail to the bus since I live relatively close to the light rail, so I may be behind on my information, but when did this happen? What genius decided that there shouldn't be free transfers from the light rail to the bus? This is particularly stupid from the airport to the 81 line because I could have ridden the 40 bus straight from the airport, avoiding the shuttle out to the light rail station, and I know that ticket would have transfered to the 81 bus. Isn't the whole idea to get people onto the light rail? why are they incentivizing me to take the parallel bus route instead of the train?

Both the airport shuttle and the train were very full last night btw, very good to see on a Sunday night.

[Don B.]

^ I think the bus driver was wrong...you should report this incident to Valley Metro. I don't have time to track down the source of my information, but my understanding of an all day pass or a monthly pass (not sure which you have) is that they are valid for ALL forms of transit in the valley, so long as it is part of Valley Metro.

--don

[TAZ4ate0]

I rode the train home from the airport yesterday (sky harbor people mover is looking awesome BTW). I usually walk or take the orbit down to my apartment, but I had my fiance's big suitcase with me and the orbit stops at 7 on Sunday now. I went to get on the 81 bus and the driver told me that my light rail pass doesn't let me transfer onto the bus, I had to buy a bus pass in addition to the light rail pass. I admit, I almost never transfer from the light rail to the bus since I live relatively close to the light rail, so I may be behind on my information, but when did this happen? What genius decided that there shouldn't be free transfers from the light rail to the bus? This is particularly stupid from the airport to the 81 line because I could have ridden the 40 bus straight from the airport, avoiding the shuttle out to the light rail station, and I know that ticket would have transfered to the 81 bus. Isn't the whole idea to get people onto the light rail? why are they incentivizing me to take the parallel bus route instead of the train?



If you only had a one way light rail ticket (ie the printed receipt), it won't allow you to transfer to the bus. You need to have at least an all day pass, or better, to be able to transfer between light rail and buses, and vice versa. Still, you could call Valley Metro and see what they have to say. But, I think the bus driver was right.

[glynnjamin]

I think you prolly bought the one way ticket. That one is just a LRT fare. That's all it covers. As Taz said, you need the all-day pass to transfer between bus and LRT

[phxbyrd]

I think he means that he just bought a light rail ticket and was expecting to be able to use the Valley Metro system to get to his destination. Not to return mind you but to get from point A (airport) to point B (apartment) on the system. It should only take one fare but since last summer it is now $3.50 each way. I would have walked if the suitcase had wheels but that's just me.

[Vicelord John]

Its not 3.50 eaxh way. Its 3.50 for the whole day as many trips as you want n

[Leo the Dog]

Well whatever the price or frequency currently is, expect changes July 1st again. Less service for sure and if we're really lucky fare increase. All of this while oil is at $82.00/barrel.

[mwadswor]

I think you prolly bought the one way ticket. That one is just a LRT fare. That's all it covers. As Taz said, you need the all-day pass to transfer between bus and LRT

I did buy a one way ticket... I only wanted to go one way. Is it the same for busses? Why should an all day pass be required to transfer? That's stupid, I didn't want to ride all day. Under that logic it would cost me less to ride all across the valley as long as it's in a straight line than it would to only go a couple miles but don't have the good fortune to live on the same street (even if it's 40 miles away) as my destination.

[Don B.]

^ You must have either an all day pass or a monthly pass to be able to transfer/ride whatever you want.

If you buy just the one trip pass, it's only good for one trip, whether on bus or light rail. Your bus option then became the second trip, which you had to buy a second pass for.

Next time, just get the all day pass and be done with it. Then you can ride whatever you want, as much as you want, no questions asked.

--don

[glynnjamin]

As far as a bus goes, you used to need a transfer slip to get between bus lines. Those slips were only good for a certain amount of time and were not good on the same line. I remember being a kid and taking the bus to MetroCenter and we had to get a transfer slip that the guy tore off at like 2 hours after we got on. We thought we'd be able to get back on that transfer...boy were we wrong. Hanging out at Metro until your parents get off work was moderately more fun then than it is now.

Long story short, it is only one trip on one vehicle. Otherwise, you need to pay for multiple trips or (the cheaper route) the all day pass. Sorry, that's the way it works.

[Don B.]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/03/31/20100331planners-phoenix-traffic-congestion.html

Transportation planners explore ways to ease Valley traffic congestion

The Arizona Department of Transportation and Maricopa Association of Governments are planning $4 billion in work to add capacity to Interstates 10 and 17, add a reliever freeway and improve interchanges in the urban core.

The work, to be paid for from regional Proposition 400 tax money, would introduce new designs to keep traffic flowing freely by segregating short- and long-distance travelers and reducing the need for traffic to weave between lanes. The effort marks a major shift toward reinvesting in the older and most congested parts of the system.

Since the first regional transportation-tax measure passed in 1985, ADOT has widened a freeway here and improved an interchange there. Those improvements, including recent completion of carpool lanes on most of the loops, were part of original expansion plans approved by county voters.

"We have a plan, and we're executing that plan. But what happens when we complete it?" ADOT spokesman Tim Tait said. "It's the now-what question."

For ADOT, the answer will come from three sets of engineering and environmental studies into improvements on the Valley's innermost freeways. Each will recommend more than $1 billion worth of work, all with the goal of relieving backups on I-10 through central Phoenix and Tempe.

Specifically:

• MAG has earmarked $1 billion to increase capacity for the 18 miles of I-17 between the Agua Fria part of Loop 101 and the I-17/10 split near the airport. ADOT is looking at adding at least a carpool lane on I-17 as it runs past downtown Phoenix. In February, ADOT held the first public hearing on possible improvements to this stretch. A recommendation is due in two years.

• Since 2007, ADOT has been working on a plan to improve I-10 from the "Ministack" interchange with Loop 202 and Arizona 51 near downtown Phoenix to Loop 202 in Chandler. The leading proposal calls for about $1.2 billion of work, which could result in as many as 24 total lanes of various types to get through Tempe. The design would braid exit lanes, merge lanes, off-ramps, frontage roads, carpool lanes and regular freeway lanes as traffic navigates through the congested Broadway Curve, between Arizona 143 and U.S. 60. The complex design could feature the state's first freeway to segregate, with a concrete barrier, main through-lanes and lanes for local traffic.
ADOT says the work is needed because the stretch of road carries 40,000 more cars daily than projected. The public should see the recommendation in the fall, with work pegged to start in 2017.

• ADOT is finishing environmental and design work this year on the proposed $1.9 billion South Mountain Freeway, a new 22-mile highway that would extend Loop 202 from Chandler to west Phoenix. Major construction could begin by 2014.

All three studies are interrelated. Traffic models for each project assume the others get built.

"If one of the projects is deferred or canceled, it will take additional analysis to find out if the others are still prudent," Tait said. "We are talking about a regional system. Nothing works independently, and that's good."

Braided network

The inner freeway system functions like a water balloon. There is a volume of traffic that needs to travel between the west and east sides. That's the water. But if you squeeze a water balloon in one spot, it bulges somewhere else. In the Valley, these pinch points are the I-10 Deck Park tunnel and the Broadway Curve. These are the two most heavily traveled sections of highway in the metro area. Each handles around a quarter-million cars a day, counting both directions. Traffic spills from these bottlenecks to other routes, including city streets.

Originally, plans called for two critical east-west reliever routes: the South Mountain Freeway and the Paradise Freeway, which was to run east-west between Camelback and Bethany Home roads.

The Paradise route was scrapped in the mid-1990s because of political and neighborhood opposition, while progress on the South Mountain Freeway has been glacial.

ADOT's options to relieve the congestion are limited. Expanding the tunnel is deemed unrealistic because of the huge cost and disruption. Improvements to the I-10/17 Stack interchange, west of downtown, are prohibitively expensive. Building a new east-west freeway through Phoenix seems unlikely to most planners.

Instead, ADOT is looking at borrowing a Canadian concept of splitting through-traffic and local traffic on existing I-10 lanes. A concrete barrier would separate long-distance "express" traffic from traffic trying to get to local streets. The braided network would also improve merge lanes, ramps and carpool lanes. The idea is to squeeze more efficiency out of existing lanes by limiting the need for weaving between them.

Theoretically, the upside is less congestion. The drawback is travelers would have to plan their route or end up overshooting their freeway exit. Motorists could get in and out of express lanes every 2 miles or so.

Even with all the improvements being considered by ADOT, almost all of urban I-10 and I-17 will still be congested.

The long view

MAG is looking beyond the original plans. Next week, MAG expects to launch a three-year, $2 million study to determine the necessary long-range freeway, arterial-surface street and transit improvements for an area bounded by Loop 101 and the planned South Mountain Freeway.
MAG assumes that the population of metropolitan Phoenix will double in the next half-century and that one-third of the growth will occur within that central area. The Central Phoenix Transportation Framework Study is being launched as Phoenix updates its general plan, so MAG can calibrate its work to how the city plans to fill in vacant land, redevelop neighborhoods or increase density.

"We know that the freeway improvements will handle X percentage of growth. What will handle growth beyond that? This study will answer that," said Bob Hazlett, MAG senior transportation engineer.

His team will look decades into the future and at all types of travel. It will answer some key questions:

• Is there a place for a new freeway after South Mountain? Will congestion be so bad calls for a reliever route such as the Paradise Freeway come back?

• What can be done to squeeze more efficiency from the existing freeway network? Is there room to widen freeways, double-stack them, improve interchanges or enhance frontage roads?

• How does the region supplement the freeway system with improvements to the street grid? MAG is examining new approaches to six-lane arterial streets in the suburbs that would use designs to smooth out traffic. An example, borrowed from Michigan, is requiring drivers who want to turn left at intersections to go beyond the corner and use a special U-turn lane, then turn right at the intersection. Or would the city need more one-way streets or reversible lanes?

• Which transit investments would help relieve congestion within the urban core?

Hazlett wonders, if the region's population grows from the current 4.4 million to 10 million, the size of Chicago, will the density support a rapid-transit heavy-rail system like the El?

Building off other long-range MAG studies, regional planners already have identified some new light-rail routes that weren't in the original blueprint but show potential success. They include 24th Street between the airport and Camelback Road; Camelback between Central Avenue and Scottsdale Road; Bell Road from Scottsdale Road to Peoria; and Thomas Road.

Such routes are showing up on maps because there is a better understanding of how people use light rail in the Valley.

Why more studies?

One question being asked is why MAG is spending more money on long-range studies when it is scaling back work approved by voters when they passed Proposition 400's half-cent-on-the-dollar sales tax in 2004.
Hazlett said other cities paid a steep price for pulling back from strategic plans. Boston might not have needed to spend billions of dollars on the much-derided Big Dig project if the region had finished planned work on Interstate 695, he said.

"Reconstruction of the I-10 tunnel is the equivalent problem," Hazlett said. "We're going to take an aggressive look at (Phoenix's ultimate development) because it takes 20 years to build anything."

MAG recently finished three other long-range studies, two looking at far-flung areas, the other at transit needs. Phoenix asked the region to follow up with a similar blueprint for the core.

ADOT was forced to look at I-10 improvements because the federal government told Sky Harbor International Airport that freeway access was inadequate.

Meanwhile the Proposition 400 plan is showing its limitations. The recession has cost the region billions of dollars in transportation-tax funds and delayed projects. Leaders have been saying that a new source of money is needed to meet needs.

The economic crash and the effect on the Valley's housing market have given some planners a chance to rethink.

"One thing about this recession is it allows us to hit the pause button or maybe the reset button. It allows you to say, 'What do we want to become?' and not just react to what's coming at us," said David Schwartz, executive director of Friends of Transit.

--don

[plinko]

• How does the region supplement the freeway system with improvements to the street grid? MAG is examining new approaches to six-lane arterial streets in the suburbs that would use designs to smooth out traffic. An example, borrowed from Michigan, is requiring drivers who want to turn left at intersections to go beyond the corner and use a special U-turn lane, then turn right at the intersection. Or would the city need more one-way streets or reversible lanes?

No! No! and No! again. Those stupid Michigan lefts do little to smooth out traffic and require the arterial roads to be even wider due to the need for U-turn space. It's like turning every arterial road into a semi-limited access highway. Bad idea.

Los Angeles is proof that after a certain point you can't build your way out of congestion with more and more roads. Trying to fix choke points through better engineering? Absolutely! But no more freeways. At that point it's time to plan for growth using alternative means of transit and better planning. Overall urban freeway congestion is just a way of life once a city reaches a certain point. That's just the way it is.

[HooverDam]

No! No! and No! again. Those stupid Michigan lefts do little to smooth out traffic and require the arterial roads to be even wider due to the need for U-turn space. It's like turning every arterial road into a semi-limited access highway. Bad idea.

Los Angeles is proof that after a certain point you can't build your way out of congestion with more and more roads. Trying to fix choke points through better engineering? Absolutely! But no more freeways. At that point it's time to plan for growth using alternative means of transit and better planning. Overall urban freeway congestion is just a way of life once a city reaches a certain point. That's just the way it is.

Agreed on all accounts, sadly it seems we'll never learn. It sure is hard to believe this was once the city that protested all freeways and nowadays we don't bat an eyelash at over a billion dollars of interchange improvements when that same number could instead give us 20 more miles or so of LRT or even more commuter rail.

Plans like this one and the idiotic MAG vision of adding 400 new miles of freeway or whatever it was are just maddening.

[phxbyrd]

I think it's very positive that planners are at least considering new ideas or bringing others back from the dead. If the sales tax hike clears I think it should be diverted in 4 years when the economy improves to transit funding. Transit is the key to this city's future and development. I think in 15 years Phoenix could be a model transit area with the right leadership.

For almost 20 years I've been talking about the failed east-west Phoenix freeway. What a mistake it was not to plan properly for the completion of that project. Does any one have more information on what was planned and how it was scrapped? I consider the alignment they mention to be misconcieved anyway. Northen Ave. would be the best place for such a project between Grand and the 51 highway.

[HX_Guy]

This sucks for the Phoenix area...

Report: US Airways, United in merger talks
Phoenix Business Journal - by Mike Sunnucks

US Airways Group Inc. is in merger talks with Chicago-based United Airlines, the New York Times reported Wednesday.

The Times report said the merger discussion stems from needed consolidation in the U.S. airline industry, The sector has been hit in recent years by high fuel prices, pullbacks in consumer and business spending and too many carriers chasing too few passengers.

A merger could result in the Phoenix market losing another corporate headquarters. US Airways is based in Tempe. United is based in Chicago.

US Airways (NYSE: LCC) tried to merge with United in 2000 but pulled back when antitrust and labor questions arose. US Airways merged with Tempe-based America West Airlines in 2005. The merged carriers kept the US Airways name but have based the airline’s headquarters in suburban Phoenix. US Airways also had merger talks with United (Nasdaq: UAUA) in 2008 and made a failed bit for Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) in late 2006 and early 2007.

US Airways officials did not respond to request for comment Wednesday afternoon. They declined comment to the Times.

US Airways has hubs in Charlotte, N.C.; Phoenix and Philadelphia. United’s hubs are in Chicago, Washington Dulles International Airport and Denver. Both carriers have a significant number of international flights.

Read more: Report: US Airways, United in merger talks - Phoenix Business Journal:

[phxbyrd]

I remember when the Delta talks were going on it was said that if completed a token of good faith to Delta would be that the headquarters would move to Atlanta although the US Air management team would have control. So why can't the new United Airlines bring their management to Arizona?

[TAZ4ate0]

This sucks for the Phoenix area...

Report: US Airways, United in merger talks
Phoenix Business Journal - by Mike Sunnucks

US Airways Group Inc. is in merger talks with Chicago-based United Airlines, the New York Times reported Wednesday.

The Times report said the merger discussion stems from needed consolidation in the U.S. airline industry, The sector has been hit in recent years by high fuel prices, pullbacks in consumer and business spending and too many carriers chasing too few passengers.

A merger could result in the Phoenix market losing another corporate headquarters. US Airways is based in Tempe. United is based in Chicago.

US Airways (NYSE: LCC) tried to merge with United in 2000 but pulled back when antitrust and labor questions arose. US Airways merged with Tempe-based America West Airlines in 2005. The merged carriers kept the US Airways name but have based the airline’s headquarters in suburban Phoenix. US Airways also had merger talks with United (Nasdaq: UAUA) in 2008 and made a failed bit for Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) in late 2006 and early 2007.

US Airways officials did not respond to request for comment Wednesday afternoon. They declined comment to the Times.

US Airways has hubs in Charlotte, N.C.; Phoenix and Philadelphia. United’s hubs are in Chicago, Washington Dulles International Airport and Denver. Both carriers have a significant number of international flights.

Read more: Report: US Airways, United in merger talks - Phoenix Business Journal:

and so what....it isn't going to happen

[Leo the Dog]

and so what....it isn't going to happen

Why not?

[TAZ4ate0]

Why not?

Basically for the same reasons as to why it didn't work in 2000.

edit: In fairness, if a merger happens, then it happens, and I'll just have to eat my hat. It isn't like it would be the first time I've had to do so. :)

For now though, I still stand by my initial statement. It isn't going to happen.

[Vicelord John]

so uhm, the monorail is going to be really tall. They have some stands up for it between east parking and T4, and it's gotta be close to 100 feet tall.

[mwadswor]

so uhm, the monorail is going to be really tall. They have some stands up for it between east parking and T4, and it's gotta be close to 100 feet tall.

Yeah, I noticed that when I was there a couple weeks ago. It looks right though if you consider that it has to get over the runways and the terminal. Similar trains like the one in DFW are also really tall, so I guess it's what all the cool kids are doing :cool: Also, it looks like the station is going to be on the lowest level of the parking garage above terminal 4, so they have to get the tracks pretty high to get up there. Should be a fun ride, although it won't be as convenient to have to then walk through the parking garage and ride down an elevator to check in or go through security.

[Tempe_Duck]

I don't think the US Air and United merger will happen but it is does happen it will be one big ass cluster fuck. US Air (US East) and America West (US West) still don't have a overall contract with the flight crews. They still fly segerated. If this happens, it will be 1 CEO over 3 different airlines.

Plus, they will move to Chicago, I can't see United leaving there. So we will lose here.

[mwadswor]

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/lightrailblog/77776

Phoenix light rail system sees record ridership in March
Metro posted its busiest month on record in March, with 1.16 million boardings.

Metro carried more than a million riders for the third straight month, despite many students taking time off for spring break.

The most significant figure, average weekday ridership, slipped from an all-time high in February. But at 41,413, that metric continues a trend in 2010 of 20 percent ridership gains over the same month a year earlier.

Weekend ridership appears more erratic, but it’s starting to look like a typical Saturday sees around 30,000 riders and Sunday usage is starting to level off just shy of 20,000 during high season.

Here's a summary of recent trends:



Jan 2010 Jan 2009 % dif Feb 2010 Feb 2009 % dif Mar 2010 Mar 2009 %dif

Ave Weekday 37,208 30,617 22% 43,509 35,277 23% 41,413 34,376 20%
Ave Saturday 30,055 31,331 -4% 27,838 31,417 -11% 31,938 28,537 12%
Ave Sunday 18,101 23,815 -24% 19,876 19,212 3% 20,373 20,508 -1%

TOTAL MONTH 1,003,041 911,883 10% 1,037,398 908,052 14% 1,161,733 972,962 19%


It’s too soon to know how long Metro can sustain its growth, particularly amid a tough economy. Ridership is expected to drop in the summer, and service cuts are expected in July. Metro watchers won’t know until the fall if the system can continue attracting new riders.

[combusean]

I don't think the US Air and United merger will happen but it is does happen it will be one big ass cluster fuck. US Air (US East) and America West (US West) still don't have a overall contract with the flight crews. They still fly segerated. If this happens, it will be 1 CEO over 3 different airlines.

Plus, they will move to Chicago, I can't see United leaving there. So we will lose here.

The last time this was proposed everybody gave the superficial impression that the headquarters was a giveaway to Chicago.

Not so. United didn't like it there, and it seemed more likely Phoenix was to gain. We'll see this time around.

[phxbyrd]

I would think Phoenix could try to tip the balance toward the headqarters moving even out of Tempe. Why not advocate for all your worth and create a package that would look better than high cost of living Chicago. This is where I judge Gordon and where so many times he's come up short.

[HooverDam]

I would think Phoenix could try to tip the balance toward the headqarters moving even out of Tempe. Why not advocate for all your worth and create a package that would look better than high cost of living Chicago. This is where I judge Gordon and where so many times he's come up short.

Indeed even though Gordon has been very pro Downtown and I appreciate that he's done little to nothing to attract major firms to downtown. I feel like that should be really close to the top of the priority list for any Mayor of Phoenix, whether they're Downtown Centric or not, Phoenix desperately needs more large firms based here.

[Vicelord John]

Phil Gordon has done nothing but turn it into a playground.

[mwadswor]

I have been reading about the bus tracker service that Chicago and a couple other cities have. Basically, you can download an app into your phone and it tells you where the next bus on your route is/how long until it gets to you. Does anyone know if anything similar is planned for Phoenix? It seems even more valuable to me in a city like Phoenix where bus headways can be as long as an hour.

[glynnjamin]

I outlined a plan to add a system for that on the light rail a few years back. I estimated it's cost at about $2000 and handed a 30 page layout to Rick Simmonetta.

Obviously he wasn't interested. But hey...we have a little voice that tells you when a train might be within 5 minutes of you.

[phxgreenfire]

I saw this article on the Valley's potential public transit future:

http://www.azcentral.com/i/2/4/9/PHP4BC6B022A2942.jpg

(The article is fairly long...)

...but you can view it at this link:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2010/04/15/20100415new-routes-for-arizona-light-rail.html

[HooverDam]

I like how on the legend commuter rail is blue, then on the map, its orange.

[Leo the Dog]

I like how on the legend commuter rail is blue, then on the map, its orange.

:haha: Didn't notice that 'til you pointed it out.

I think the S. Central line is a no-brainer. Should have been included in the first round of extensions, but I understand why it wasn't (politics).

[glynnjamin]

I like how they have one running east bound on Camelback. That's NEVER going to happen.

[HooverDam]

I like how they have one running east bound on Camelback. That's NEVER going to happen.

It ought to run at least to 24th St/Camelback, that just makes sense. You'd certainly run into NIMBYs between there and Scottsdale Fashion but perhaps if you limited the number of stops and made some trades like burying power lines you could make it happen.

[glynnjamin]

Well ya, obviously 24th Street would be okay...but looking at their little map, there is no way it would work east of that. They would have to drop down to Indian School or something.

I wouldn't mind them terminating it at 24th, honestly. That article got me thinking about travel times. The thing that discourages me from taking the LRT as much as I could/should is travel time. We took it to Christown last weekend and it took almost an hour from when I left my house to when I walked in the theatre. That's way too long to go like 8 miles. I can't imagine how long it would take to get to somewhere like Bell & Scottsdale via lightrail. I think what we need to see are pockets of non-connected light rail lines inside the urban villages and then have those connected via commuter rail. So, for example:

Run LRT down to Union Station. Commuter rail down Grand from Union Station to Glendale Station. LRT running through downtown Glendale all the way to Westgate.

A commuter line between Glendale & downtown Phx would take 10-15 mins whereas a light rail line would take more than an hour. I'm not saying that the LRT lines shouldn't ever connect. I'm just saying that the cheapest practical buildout would be to put LRT in the places it would actually be used NOW and let them grow outward until they connect with the main line over time.

**EDIT***
Ideally, something that looks more like this (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&hq=intel&hnear=&msa=0&msid=104497473367500745267.00048447d67efa1876d0f&ll=33.521934,-111.776276&spn=0.654868,1.454315&z=10)

Obviously the routes of certain lines would be subject to a multitude of things but the statistics we see about mass transit users shows that those "middle areas" are not going to be used during the off-peak hours. Very few people would need to get between downtown Phx and downtown Glendale at 1pm on a Tuesday. Why build a LRT that is constantly running between those areas? Local communities can build street cars that will connect commuter rail stations with popular destinations. You can see how I ran a street car up 83rd Ave from the Peoria commuter rail station to the Peoria Sports Complex/Arrowhead area. Obviously you'd want to extend it to the mall but that would require Glendale to chip in. In any event, I think this sort of approach works much better than trying to cram so many LRT trains on to the main line. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a solution for the north valley other than to run LRT down Bell Rd which I think is a bad idea. There are no train tracks anywhere up there so there is no infrastructure to support the right of way.

[mwadswor]

As this gets built out and many of these lines feed into the current line, what is the prescedent for upgrading our existing light rail by, for example, grade separating it at some of the major intersections? Also, when some interlining starts happening, does anyone know what the minimum headway is on the current line without any infrastructure improvements?

[glynnjamin]

Well, I'm not sure if there is precedent or not but I am quite familiar with SoundTransit's plans. Back about 2001 Tacoma went ahead and built a 1.7mile street car line. They used the same track as a LRT system would use but installed the lower voltage overhead lines and have stations that are about 60% as long as ours are. The idea was to build this starter line to benefit the city of Tacoma (it has greatly) and wait until the rest of the Sound got their act together. Just last year, Seattle finally opened their LRT line running from the airport (halfway between tacoma & seattle) all the way to Westlake. It's not nearly as long as ours, 12 miles or so, but they use the same trains we do and everything else is exactly the same. These two lines are connected by SoundTransit's Sounder Commuter rail line that runs from Tacoma's Tacoma Dome Station (the beginning of the street car line) to King Station (about the middle of Seattle's LRT line). The area between SeaTac and Tacoma is populated but very spread out. The likelihood of the two lines connecting within 20 years is about 10%. If and when it does, Tacoma will need to decide if they want to force passengers to disembark their LRT cars and transfer to a streetcar or if they want to spend the money to replace the power lines, extend the stations, and replace a few bends in the track that won't accommodate the longer LRT trains. Until that happens, Tacoma is going ahead with an ambitious plan to extend the street car by another 5 miles. The debate right now is whether to switch train styles now or continue with their cheaper (and, honestly, more Tacoma-sized) street car line.

[Leo the Dog]

As this gets built out and many of these lines feed into the current line, what is the prescedent for upgrading our existing light rail by, for example, grade separating it at some of the major intersections? Also, when some interlining starts happening, does anyone know what the minimum headway is on the current line without any infrastructure improvements?

Believe it or not, but there can be significant traffic jams on the rail lines. Boston's Green Line, which is consists of B, C, D, E LRT surface lines, feed into one central tunnel to serve inner-Boston. It is common to have stop n go during peak hours in the tunnels with the train cars separated by 100 yards or so.

This is why, a couple months back, I thought it made sense to break up the "starter line" into two separate lines that overlap from 12th St. switchback to the Filmore switchback as the extensions come on-line.

[phoenixboi08]

:koko: The more I think about the development of mass transit...the more and more I wish that they could just siphon money away from expanding existing highways and towards this kind of development. Seems like a no-brainer to me. But then again, I guess that's not entirely realistic...?