Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Buckeye Native 001]

If you live in the Southeast Valley, the town of Maricopa's an option for Amtrak service, but not worth the drive for most of the city's residents (especially on the west and north sides of town)

[JDRCRASH]

Phoenix is also nearly twice as large as SF, so HSR definitely must be considered.

Unfortunately, with anti-rail cronies like John McCain along with his loyal suburban NIMBYS roaming Arizona, getting something as expensive as HSR to L
a will most definitely be a hassle.

[HooverDam]

Nice job finding those renderings Hx_Guy it looks pretty slick. Im glad to see a future link to commuter rail is being planned for.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

^^Where can we find more info on that (commuter rail at Sky Harbor)? Does anyone know what happened to all the studies that Napolitano had ordered regarding commuter rail between PHX and Tucson?

[glynnjamin]

Ya commuter rail is what caught my eye. The airport looks pretty much like JFK's SkyTrain so I'm not that surprised. But commuter rail would be amazing. Obviously there is a large business for people who come up from Tucson to take flights and a commuter rail line that went from Tucson, through the SE Valley, through the airport, connected with Union Station, then went up Grand Ave stopping in Glendale, Surprise, and Wickenburg would be awesome.

[oliveurban]

Those renderings of the Sky Train station look great. It's in Phoenix and it's actually impressive. What did we do to deserve this? ;)

Leaving the option open for a commuter rail link is fantastic. It's another thing to be impressed with - genuine transit foresight. I'm almost shocked. Now, if we can only get Union Station up and running again, HSR and Amtrak to Phoenix (at Union Station), a genuine commuter rail network, expanded LRT, etc., etc., and gosh, I'll just be gushing with pride!

I hope this gets built as planned.

[exit2lef]

Don't read too much into the wording about commuter rail. Does anyone remember the signs in the I-10 tunnel saying "future express bus station"? That never came to pass. I'm very much in favor of the SkyTrain, but sometimes projects will be presented with add-on capabilities that are never used. It's great that SkyTrain can link to commuter rail, but that's no guarantee that commuter rail will ever be built. Right now, it isn't even in the planning stages.

[Leo the Dog]

Just imagine if our LR (or Heavy Rail) system looked like that! Those stations look great.

Has anyone else noticed how there aren't nearly as many LR haters on AZCentral? Seems like the public is ready for LR extension more/now vs. never/too much $$.

[NIXPHX77]

Ya commuter rail is what caught my eye. But commuter rail would be amazing. Obviously there is a large business for people who come up from Tucson to take flights and a commuter rail line that went from Tucson, through the SE Valley, through the airport, connected with Union Station, then went up Grand Ave stopping in Glendale, Surprise, and Wickenburg would be awesome.
Same here. just the fact that it was thought of to be included (and was included) gives me hope. seems a no-brainer.
we have to help make commuter rail (and Amtrak's return, whether it's HSR or not) somehow. write or call your local and federal congresspersons and other elected officials.
i like the renderings a lot mostly, but a few concerns come to mind.
do architects in this day for local projects still render surface lots without any landscaping/trees/shade? as pictured, that would be horrible, tho i don't think the city would allow it.
it looks like one would have to go up not one but 2 levels to reach the sky train from LR if i'm seeing it right. the sky train station should be on the same level as the bridge over washington it seems to me.
also, i'd like to see the extra empty space at the sw corner of wash. and 44th st parceled off and sold so someone could build something at that corner and contribute some money to the coffers. why not activate the corner; is all that empty space adjacent to bus bays and back to the canal necessary? seems wasteful in many ways. Thx for finding and posting this cool stuff vwwolfe and hxguy!

[Leo the Dog]

^ 44th St/Washington development is coming along. The new Aloft is looking like the one in Tempe, should be open in the Fall and the low-rise office building to the east of the Aloft has cool lighting at night. I like how they added the blue horizontal lighting to make it stand out. I'm sure the Aloft will add to the lighting as well.

I noticed that the truck trailer on the empty lot between the 2 buildings had the name "Trillium" painted over. I guess they're no longer planning residential there now??

[HX_Guy]

It looks like we could have extended light rail hours on the weekend as soon as June 2009. Would be great to see...

http://phoenix.gov/PUBMEETC/1015.html#item7

[glynnjamin]

Sweet!

[PHX31]

/\ Great news and thanks for posting....

Last weekend I was at the Sail Inn (bar) in Tempe. My friend and I knew we had to unfortunately catch the last train back downtown at around 11pm. We were riding our bikes and got to the platform and paid our money for the pass and started waiting. A security guard told us we missed the last train, but for some reason I didn't believe him. We waiting and one more train WB did come and stopped at Mill Ave. Some people got off and I was glad we'd at least get a ride part of the way home (to where the trains head off to the MSF). We got on and then the conductor came by and said the train is now out of service (at 11:15ish). Why would it be out of service at Mill? I can see being out of service once it hits the 48th St or Priest or whatever it is station, but Mill? It didn't make any sense. But we got off and proceeded to ride our bikes home from Mill Ave back to downtown (a nice 10 mile jaunt along Washington).

Three things sucked about last Saturday night:

1. That the ticket machines and marquees say nothing about the last train already leaving the station. It still let us buy one-way tickets wasting our money. They should somehow know, let the platform know, and stop selling the same-day one-way tix at a certain time.

2. That the westbound train continued service until Mill only, and then went out of service. I thought at the end of the night they always continued service until the point they break off to go to the maintainance facility.

3. That the trains stopped running on a Saturday night at freaking 11:15 or 11:30!!!

Glad they'll be extended (hopefully) in the coming months.

[electricron]

Three things sucked about last Saturday night:
1. That the ticket machines and marquees say nothing about the last train already leaving the station. It still let us buy one-way tickets wasting our money. They should somehow know, let the platform know, and stop selling the same-day one-way tix at a certain time.
2. That the westbound train continued service until Mill only, and then went out of service. I thought at the end of the night they always continued service until the point they break off to go to the maintenance facility.
3. That the trains stopped running on a Saturday night at freaking 11:15 or 11:30!!!

Do they have train schedules pamphlets anywhere?
Here it is from their web site:
http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/lightrail_publications/METRO_Rail_Schedule_03_23_09.pdf

The last few westbound trains are shown going out of service at Mill.

[PhxPavilion]

Providing later weekend service is not in the METRO operating budget. The operating budget is 100 percent funded by member cities based on the service miles in their jurisdiction. The City of Phoenix currently does not have funds budgeted for extended hours. City staff requested that METRO provide cost estimates and options for providing light rail service until 2:00 a.m. The following options include METRO’s operating costs for one year of extended service, security for the extended hours, and the provision of Dial-A-Ride service, as required by federal regulations.

Options

1. Continue 20-minute service through Phoenix and Tempe downtown stations until 2:00 a.m. This means the last eastbound train passes through the Phoenix downtown stations shortly after 2:00 a.m. and the last westbound train leaves 3rd Street and Mill Avenue shortly after 2:00 a.m. The cost of this option is $300,000.

2. Same as Option 1 with the exception that after 11 p.m., trains will run every 40 minutes instead of every 20 minutes. The cost of this option is $250,000.

3. Same as Option 1 with the exception that after 11 p.m., trains will run every 60 minutes instead of every 20 minutes. This option costs $225,000.

4. Continue regular service as currently scheduled except for the last two trains. In this option, the last two trains remain at 19th Avenue and Montebello and Sycamore and Main stations, departing in time to arrive at westbound Tempe and eastbound Phoenix downtowns at 2:15 a.m. The cost of this option is $200,000.

Anyone catch this from the report? Trains running every 40 or 60 minutes is pretty ridiculous.

[PHX31]

Do they have train schedules pamphlets anywhere?
Here it is from their web site:
http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/lightrail_publications/METRO_Rail_Schedule_03_23_09.pdf

The last few westbound trains are shown going out of service at Mill.

They must have changed it because I was always under the impression that the last trains went out of service at Priest as they went off the main tracks to the maintenance yard. In fact, I was on a train a month or two ago that went out of service there and we had to get off. Besides, it makes sense to end there, because there are still a couple stops they could let people off at after Mill before going out of service. Unless they think it's better to dump people off on Mill where there is stuff to do, rather than at Priest where it is nothing but a bunch of closed office buildings.

[Vicelord John]

Anyone catch this from the report? Trains running every 40 or 60 minutes is pretty ridiculous.

I think it is fine. If I am at the bar and I know the trains are on the hour, I'll just leave accordingly.

[nickkoto]

They should run it at 20 minute intervals and have someone on board selling beer to the passengers to help raise the 300k.

It would also be one more incentive for the drunks to use LR instead of driving.

[trigirdbers]

Anyone catch this from the report? Trains running every 40 or 60 minutes is pretty ridiculous.


I'm with Vicelord, I'd just leave accordingly. Besides, after they see how fucking packed the trains are, they should up the frequency, if not now, when the econ gets better.

[mwadswor]

Trains after midnight would clearly primarily benefit the bar and club owners along the route (specifically Mill and Downtown Phoenix), has anyone suggested that they pay for part of the increased cost? I could be wrong, but I think there are late night trains or buses in LA paid for by the bar owners.

Another option might be to stop the trains at midnight but have a late night bus that continues until 2 or 3 in the morning along the light rail route. There won't be as many people in the middle of the night and the buses should be a lot cheaper to run. I know they do that in Amsterdam and London. Although, since reducing the frequency of the trains doesn't look like it reduces the cost all that much, I'm suspecting that other factors like security are the real cost of keeping the system running longer.

Also, since operating costs are paid for by the cities, couldn't they just run a truncated route in the late night? It sounds like Phoenix is the problem here and obviously the train doesn't do a whole lot of good if it doesn't run into Phoenix. But hypothetically, if Mesa didn't want late night trains would it be an option to just not service the Sycamore station after midnight?

Finally, does anyone know if that's $300,000 a year? a month? a week? if it's $300,000 a year that seems like a pretty negligible amount of money relative to the cost of the system.

[gymratmanaz]

As much as I hate to agree with Vicelord ( :) ), as long as I know trains are running, they don't need to be 10 or 20 minutes. I would leave knowing they run every 40 or 60 minutes and drink accordingly!!!!

[plinko]

I still don't agree with the SkyTrain routing. I think it's extremely short-sighted. If it will go all the way west to the rental car center at 16th, why not extend it the last 2.5 miles along Buckeye and up Central/Seventh directly into downtown? At least turn it north at 16th and have a 2nd LRT connection?

If I get off a plane in Phoenix for a convention (even in T4), why am I going to go from baggage claim up to the SkyTrain, spend 10 minutes on that train, go through the bridge transfer to lite rail (let's assume no waiting, but that's doubtful), and then spend 15 minutes getting to downtown Phoenix (and then have to figure out where my hotel is from the train)? That's what...25 minutes at least for about $5?

When I can walk outside and get in a taxi and have it take 15 minutes to get directly to the hotel for $10?

This comparison is even worse from T2 or T3...

My point is not to decry the use of money for the SkyTrain, my point is to say that the planning behind it seems to be highly flawed if you are trying to promote downtown Phoenix as a destination. Sure, the 44th ST station works if you are taking the train to the East or even West Valley (especially given the cost of a taxi beyond 5-6 miles), but if your airport's most important customers are business travellers (i.e. those going to downtown for conventions, meetings), shouldn't your airport connectivity be a little less cumbersome?

[glynnjamin]

^You can't even get out of the airport for under $10 on a taxi. Costs me $24 from Terminal 4 to 2nd ave & Fillmore.

I also agree with the set 60 min intervals. Run one at 11, 12, 1, and 2. Sounds fair to me.

[exit2lef]

I still don't agree with the SkyTrain routing. I think it's extremely short-sighted. If it will go all the way west to the rental car center at 16th, why not extend it the last 2.5 miles along Buckeye and up Central/Seventh directly into downtown? At least turn it north at 16th and have a 2nd LRT connection?

If I get off a plane in Phoenix for a convention (even in T4), why am I going to go from baggage claim up to the SkyTrain, spend 10 minutes on that train, go through the bridge transfer to lite rail (let's assume no waiting, but that's doubtful), and then spend 15 minutes getting to downtown Phoenix (and then have to figure out where my hotel is from the train)? That's what...25 minutes at least for about $5?

When I can walk outside and get in a taxi and have it take 15 minutes to get directly to the hotel for $10?

This comparison is even worse from T2 or T3...

My point is not to decry the use of money for the SkyTrain, my point is to say that the planning behind it seems to be highly flawed if you are trying to promote downtown Phoenix as a destination. Sure, the 44th ST station works if you are taking the train to the East or even West Valley (especially given the cost of a taxi beyond 5-6 miles), but if your airport's most important customers are business travellers (i.e. those going to downtown for conventions, meetings), shouldn't your airport connectivity be a little less cumbersome?

Nearly 1000 people a day are using the existing bus-to-light-rail connection at Sky Harbor. From what I've observed at the 44th St. / Washington station, the majority of passengers boarding there with luggage get on westbound trains heading into Central Phoenix. In other words, I think we already have proof that people don't mind the process you've described above. Personally, I'd gladly trade 15 minutes for 5 dollars.

[exit2lef]

Also, since operating costs are paid for by the cities, couldn't they just run a truncated route in the late night? It sounds like Phoenix is the problem here and obviously the train doesn't do a whole lot of good if it doesn't run into Phoenix. But hypothetically, if Mesa didn't want late night trains would it be an option to just not service the Sycamore station after midnight?



The problem is that there are a limited number of places at which trains can be switched from one track to the other track heading in the opposite direction. A train ending its journey at the Price / Apace station, the easternmost station in Tempe, would have no way to reverse its course without heading the last mile into Mesa. Also, can you imagine the confusion that would result if you tried to explain to East Valley passengers that they could stay out until 2 PM if they parked at the Price / Apache park-and-ride but only until 11 PM if they parked at the Sycamore / Main park-and-ride a mile away? For this to work, it's really got to cover all three cities.

[PhxPavilion]

I drove alongside a three car train tonight down Central at 1:30 am.

[trigirdbers]

can you imagine the confusion that would result if you tried to explain to East Valley passengers that they could stay out until 2 PM if they parked at the Price / Apache park-and-ride but only until 11 PM if they parked at the Sycamore / Main park-and-ride a mile away?

Lots of cities close select stations in the late night. Works in DC and NYC.

[exit2lef]

Lots of cities close select stations in the late night. Works in DC and NYC.

Yes, but they're usually not end-of-the-line stations like Sycamore / Main, and the populations there are more used to rail transit and its vagaries. I don't think it would be a good idea at this point here in the Phoenix Metro Area.

[NIXPHX77]

I drove alongside a three car train tonight down Central at 1:30 am.
Saw quite a few 3 car trains crossing Town Lake while at the Greek festival there sat. night.

[Vicelord John]

Greek festival there sat. night.

So that explains all the hairy women I saw on Saturday.

[NIXPHX77]

i always thought, when LR was still being planned, that there should also be a West end Sky Harbor connection at 24th st for LR, commuter rail, and buses.
I would like to see sky train somehow connect at that end for DT and westbound travelers leaving the airport, while 44th st would serve eastbound travelers. i think this would be esp. beneficial when a new Terminal is built to replace T2. i think this would be a better and faster connection for those going downtown (as Plinko was relating.)

[glynnjamin]

Looking at the current configuration of the SkyTrain, I can't really see how that would work.
Link (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=104497473367500745267.0004690999e28e40a4b74&ll=33.43975,-112.009563&spn=0.064174,0.11055&z=13)

You couldn't branch it off and run up 24th for two reasons: 1) you'd have an elevated train about 100yards from a runway and 2) it screws up the simplistic "shuttle" pattern of the train.
To run it into downtown or connect it to LRT closer to downtown, the current 12th St or a new 16th St LRT stop would make the most sense. Run the SkyTrain up 16th and connect up there. Of course, the longer the route, the longer the wait between trains. I'm assuming this thing is going to be a two track, two train system that just shuttles back and forth like most of the non-circular airport trains are.

Maybe the best temporary fix is to put a SkyTrain stop at 24th St and Buckeye (Greyhound station) and run a bus between the LRT and the SkyTrain via 24th.

[plinko]

Looking at the current configuration of the SkyTrain, I can't really see how that would work.
Link (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=104497473367500745267.0004690999e28e40a4b74&ll=33.43975,-112.009563&spn=0.064174,0.11055&z=13)

You couldn't branch it off and run up 24th for two reasons: 1) you'd have an elevated train about 100yards from a runway and 2) it screws up the simplistic "shuttle" pattern of the train.
To run it into downtown or connect it to LRT closer to downtown, the current 12th St or a new 16th St LRT stop would make the most sense. Run the SkyTrain up 16th and connect up there. Of course, the longer the route, the longer the wait between trains. I'm assuming this thing is going to be a two track, two train system that just shuttles back and forth like most of the non-circular airport trains are.

Maybe the best temporary fix is to put a SkyTrain stop at 24th St and Buckeye (Greyhound station) and run a bus between the LRT and the SkyTrain via 24th.

So then you would take the SkyTrain to a bus to the LRT? Yeah no...:koko:

Think outside the box here guys. It's currently configured as a long 'L-shaped' loop. Just make it a 'U'. Run the damn thing down Buckeye to somewhere between 7th and Central and run it north 3/4 of a mile to a new downtown transit center (or just run it to Central and have it connect to a future Central Avenue line). Imagine the redevelopment possibilities at Buckeye and Central (I know the porn shop and Circle K are landmarks and all...but...)

1000 people a day using the current bus is great (and much more than I would have thought). But wouldn't it be nicer if you could capture even 10% of the O and D traffic (like 3,000 a day) with a routing that actually gets people downtown instead of taking them 3 miles in the complete opposite direction?

[Vicelord John]

plinko, have you been to 7th and buckeye lately? they rebuilt that circle k into a gigantor state of the art gas station.

[glynnjamin]

Well Plinko it would make sense for a multitude of reasons. For one, the people who fly in to SkyHarbor and need to take the Greyhound to their final destination would then have a stop. People who need to take Greyhound would have an easy way to get from the LRT to the station as well. Finally, people coming from the west side who are going to the West Terminal would cut down on their travel time by bypassing the current configuration.

You can't run the SkyTrain into downtown, it doesn't work. No way. For all of the same reasons why you didn't run LRT into the airport directly, you don't want the SkyTrain becoming some mode of transportation for the public transit masses of South Phx. There are two options for train-only transit. Either you change the route into a U-shape that runs between 16th St and 44th St or you turn it into a circle that goes between downtown and the airport. At least with a circular track, you can put more trains on it. With a U-shaped track between downtown and Terminal 4, you could wait almost 20 minutes before a train comes - far too long when you're trying to change planes between terminals.

[plinko]

Ah see, now we're getting somewhere in the discussion.

My thought behind running the Sky Train all the way downtown is that it runs express between the rental car center and Central/Jefferson (or thereabouts). So NO, it's not a means of intra-city transit, but an express train from downtown to the airport. It would link up with LRT both downtown and at 44th, thus serving both the East/West Valley equally and fully putting downtown as a traveller destination. I don't agree with linking it to LRT at 24th or 16th because I think it's just shortsighted. If you're that close to downtown, just make the last leg.

I also don't agree that linking it with the Greyhound station has any merit whatsoever. How much Sky Harbor traffic actually goes to/from the Greyhound terminal, 10-15 people a day? Maybe? Even 10X that wouldn't be worth it. Besides, the plan is ALREADY for the SkyTrain to pass the Greyhound station to get to the rental car center so the point is moot.

Question: is there a direct express bus from the rental car center to downtown? That might be a simpler and much cheaper option. It would just take a little signage.

Question: please explain why if the SkyTrain runs all the way downtown that you might have to wait 20 minutes for another train? Is not the current line designed to be something like 5+ miles long? There's obviously more than one train on the line so it's not like you're going to have to wait 20 minutes under the current design. The stations at the terminals and east economy are designed to be two-directional. The 44th street is a terminus. All they have to do is reconfigure the rental car terminal to be two-directional and build one more terminal downtown. Actually now that I think about it...running it up 3rd street to Jefferson would be perfect. That big parking lot just west of USAC would make a great terminus...right in the middle of everything.

[glynnjamin]

I suppose you are right that there need to be more than 2 trains on the track in order to accomplish there 5-minute wait times. That being said, I think having the train "ignore" the parts of the valley that it will go through is more shortsighted than anything else. How can you ask for residents to approve an elevated rail system when they wouldn't be able to use it without driving to a station? You're gonna build a giant concrete obstruction through their backyards and then tell them that the closest place to pick it up is 3 miles away in downtown?

A bus from the rental car station to downtown makes sense but I'm not sure that would be less time than just taking the LRT. If you arrive in Terminal 4 (which most people do), it is only 5 minutes (no waiting assumed) to the LRT station. 5 minute walk to the station and then a 10 minute ride on the LRT into downtown. So maybe it takes you 20minutes. Seems like it would be hard to get you from Terminal 4 to the Rental Car lot then on to a bus that gets you into downtown in under 20 minutes (especially during rush hour).

Also, while the SkyTrain is planned to go OVER the Greyhound station, there is no stop planned for there. Despite what you think, there are a lot of people who come in from all over the state via Greyhound to get to the airport. Even if that number is a few hundred a day, it should warrant a 15 second stop on the trip.

Finally, does anyone know what Gordon plans to do about Terminal 2 if he gets the stimulus money to build the train now? The plans for the SkyTrain do not include a stop at Terminal 2 because it is set to be torn down by the time the train gets there. Will he build a stop for it that will then become defunct a few years later or will he just put a stop half way between Terminal 2 and the expected West Terminal?

[mwadswor]

I suppose you are right that there need to be more than 2 trains on the track in order to accomplish there 5-minute wait times. That being said, I think having the train "ignore" the parts of the valley that it will go through is more shortsighted than anything else. How can you ask for residents to approve an elevated rail system when they wouldn't be able to use it without driving to a station? You're gonna build a giant concrete obstruction through their backyards and then tell them that the closest place to pick it up is 3 miles away in downtown?

I think that's the biggest problem with extending it. You're either going to turn it into just another train line or you're going to have a giant express train with people screaming about discrimination because they have to put up with the construction, noise, and visual impact but then can't really ride it.

Now that I think about it though, what's wrong with it becoming just another form of urban transport? The problem with the light rail going through the airport is that the airport is in the middle of the line, the airport would still be at the end of this line so people riding it downtown wouldn't have to deal with all of the airport stations.

The only significant problem I see with this option is the expense. For now, the ideal would probably be to just not design the rental car station as a terminus so that it's easier to extend the line one day when there is more money available.

[exit2lef]

A U-shaped train would have numerous challenges. The biggest is most likely to be land acquisition. For the current route, the City is condemning property near 44th St. and Washington, and that's a big deal -- both in terms of staff time and money. Most of the rest of the route goes through airport property, but if the SkyTrain is extended west to Downtown, there would be several miles more of land acquistion cost involved. The project budget would increase astronomically. Frankly, I just don't think it would be worth it. The current transfer at 44th St. and Washington is working and will work even better once SkyTrain replaces the buses. A lot of travelers coming to Phoenix don't even know which direction Downtown is; they'll just follow the signs to light rail once they exit the plane.

[nickkoto]

The problem is that there are a limited number of places at which trains can be switched from one track to the other track heading in the opposite direction. A train ending its journey at the Price / Apace station, the easternmost station in Tempe, would have no way to reverse its course without heading the last mile into Mesa. Also, can you imagine the confusion that would result if you tried to explain to East Valley passengers that they could stay out until 2 PM if they parked at the Price / Apache park-and-ride but only until 11 PM if they parked at the Sycamore / Main park-and-ride a mile away? For this to work, it's really got to cover all three cities.

The tracks have a switch in place just west of the Price freeway if they wanted to reverse course and switch tracks without running the trains into Mesa.

But yeah, what purpose would it serve to cut out Mesa's station if they didn't chip in? It's one station and from a commerce standpoint, Mesa isn't going to benefit as long as they continue to lack a decent night scene. The late night traffic at the Sycamore station would primarily be Mesa residents returning home after spending their beer money on Mill Avenue or in downtown Phoenix.

[exit2lef]

Today's news about the Coyotes declaring bankruptcy and possibly moving to Canada has me thinking about Glendale's segment of light rail. You may remember a few weeks ago that Glendale proposed running light rail to Westgate rather than its Downtown. Glendale even wanted Phoenix to pay for the extra miles of track that would require. I thought the idea was a bad one then, and now I'm even more convinced.

A walkable district like Downtown Glendale with interesting shops, festivals, events, etc. is timeless and light rail will help anchor it. Westgate, on the other hand, was built just years ago out of the cotton fields and is dependent on sports franchises that may leave with little notice, creating the prospect of empty trains running to empty arenas. I hope Glendale sees this as a wake-up call to stay with the prior plan to run light rail to its Downtown rather than spending a lot more money for a train to outlying sports facilities.

[PHX31]

/\ why can't it be both? Run it through downtown and then to Westgate. Obviously costs may play a part.

On another note, i sent a complaint to Valley Metro about the bus pull out on Thomas Road near the light rail line that is still sitting there unused, while buses are still using the old bus stop which blocks right-lane traffic and gets close to queuing up traffic to the tracks. It's dangerous to traffic for many reasons (not just cars backing up to the tracks on Central), and it seems like all they have to do is unbolt the benches and move them down the street a couple hundred feet to the new bus stop. If nothing else, the construction of the new bus stop has so far been a waste of money... sitting there unused for the past 6 months. I got a reply that someone will contact me, hopefully it will be someone that matters. I'm sick of driving home and getting stuck behind a stopped bus, or getting cut off as drivers try to avoid getting stuck behind the bus, or getting nearly rear-ended as people allow other people to merge, stopping the center lane traffic as well.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Coyotes and hockey aside, there's still that giant football stadium that hosts some rather large events from time to time. IIRC, one of the biggest complaints from everyone coming to Phoenix for the Super Bowl last February was the proximity of Westgate to the rest of the Valley's hot spots. Light rail might help alleviate some of those complaints, no?

In other words, light rail to downtown Glendale would be nice in theory, but why try to tell people where they should go instead of building rail lines to places people want to go?

[HooverDam]

Coyotes and hockey aside, there's still that giant football stadium that hosts some rather large events from time to time. IIRC, one of the biggest complaints from everyone coming to Phoenix for the Super Bowl last February was the proximity of Westgate to the rest of the Valley's hot spots. Light rail might help alleviate some of those complaints, no?

In other words, light rail to downtown Glendale would be nice in theory, but why try to tell people where they should go instead of building rail lines to places people want to go?

Huh? I dont think anyone is saying build lines to downtown Glendale and then have them stop there. North along 19th Ave, West along Glendale Ave to Downtown Glendale and onto Westgate. TOD zone the heck out of the vast amounts of open space between Downtown and Westgate and have a more walkable version of the Biltmore area on that side of town. Everyone wins.

[exit2lef]

Coyotes and hockey aside, there's still that giant football stadium that hosts some rather large events from time to time. IIRC, one of the biggest complaints from everyone coming to Phoenix for the Super Bowl last February was the proximity of Westgate to the rest of the Valley's hot spots. Light rail might help alleviate some of those complaints, no?

In other words, light rail to downtown Glendale would be nice in theory, but why try to tell people where they should go instead of building rail lines to places people want to go?

But if the Cardinals ever move to another city or if there is an extended strike by the players, people won't want to go there anymore. My point is that pro sports franchises are fickle and can't be counted on as the primary justification for a light rail line.



Huh? I dont think anyone is saying build lines to downtown Glendale and then have them stop there. North along 19th Ave, West along Glendale Ave to Downtown Glendale and onto Westgate. TOD zone the heck out of the vast amounts of open space between Downtown and Westgate and have a more walkable version of the Biltmore area on that side of town. Everyone wins.

I haven't heard that proposal. What I've heard is either Downtown Glendale via an east-west route or Westgate via the 101 Freeway. Personally, I think your scenario is the best of all if it can be made to happen.

[exit2lef]

Coincidentally, here's an article about light rail to the West Valley. Basic message: It's gonna take a while.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2009/05/06/20090506gl-lightrail0506.html

[Vicelord John]

so we have to wait longer for the fail rail? sweet!

If the extra two years translated into putting on surface streets in high density neighborhoods, I'd change my tune. Did you know Maryvale is the highest residental density neighborhood in Arizona?

[glynnjamin]

^highest density of gunfire...am I right? am I right?

If it were up to me, the line would run into downtown Glendale and then I'd let Glendale use their GUS or whatever it is to move people from the LRT to the stadium. It isn't the most elegant solution but it makes the most sense. They can increase the runs during concerts and games and decrease them the other 345 days of the year.

[HooverDam]

I haven't heard that proposal

It only exists in my mind, but it seems to make the most sense to me. :D

[Vicelord John]

^highest density of gunfire...am I right? am I right?


well, getting shot at is was the last straw and the ultimate reason for moving out of there, so I can't really argue with you.

That said, thugs need transportatoin just like everyone else.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Thugs be rollin...on the rails

:rolleyes: at myself

[combusean]

There is a square mile of Phoenix I think NW of 19th avenue and Camelback that is about 15,000 people per square mile. It is on its own however.

Maryvale has square mile after square mile of residential densities double the average in Phoenix. 8,000+ is the norm over there.

[nickkoto]

I have to say, I think Glendale is insane to want the LR going down the I-10 instead of down Northern or Glendale, but I can see the appeal if I was a commuter from the West Valley.

If I lived in say Surprise and I hopped on the rail at the western point of some hypothetical extension, rode it all the way through Glendale, all the way through west Phx to Christown, and then rode the existing rail all the way to downtown, with a stop every half mile, I'd want to eat a gun before doing that 5 days a week. And there's no way I'd take that 2 hour ride to a Cardinals game from Tempe.

If it was down the median of I-10, there'd be no stoplights and they could only make a stop every mile at the most (and they'd cheap out on it and make even fewer stops), and presumably that extension would link up somewhere far south of Christown, closer to downtown. So from the standpoint of capturing commuter traffic, it makes some amount of sense.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

That's why we need commuter rail.

[mwadswor]

If it was down the median of I-10, there'd be no stoplights and they could only make a stop every mile at the most (and they'd cheap out on it and make even fewer stops), and presumably that extension would link up somewhere far south of Christown, closer to downtown. So from the standpoint of capturing commuter traffic, it makes some amount of sense.

It makes loads of sense to run it down I-10, and maybe even up the 101 to the Cardinals stadium if you're interested in capturing lots of park and ride traffic. However, the point of light rail isn't just to capture park and ride traffic, it's to help urbanize the area around it, which it can't do from the middle of a freeway. The best option for light rail to be as effective as possible is to run it on (or above or below) surface streets as often as possible.

Anyway, I agree that capturing park and ride traffic and moving it from the far west valley into downtown makes loads of sense. However, you would capture even more traffic if you just build a full blown commuter rail and run it down either the median of I-10 and maybe the 101 and/or down Grand (if BNSF is willing to sell the rights to the track). That way you're not limited to the 55 mph that our light rail is capable of and you can run it at 80 or 90 mph and get to downtown even more quickly. One of the benefits I hear of running rail down the freeway median is that it provides a visual incentive for people stuck in stop and go traffic to see the train running by them, but I don't think it will inspire many people to ride the 55 mph train when they zip by at 70 in their cars.

[PHX31]

The entire reason they are running it down I-10 is because of the minimized capital needed (land acquisition costs). The higher ups and committees are concerned only about those initial costs. Running the majority of it down I-10 means they have the right of way and the utility conflicts are minimal. Nevermind the overall and future benefits are also minimal. (i don't know the specifics, but maybe they also somehow think running it down I-10 gives them the best shot at securing as much federal funding as possible.)

Forget commuter rail, for a fraction of the cost of light rail they could just throw out a ton of those RAPID buses. They could go anywhere, they could initiate a ton of different alignments and final destinations along all of the freeways, and it would be instantaneous. As much as I want a better light rail system, I'd seriously oppose the I-10 light rail alignment as a waste of money.

[azliam]

http://www.azstarnet.com/ss/2009/05/08/292000-1.jpg


High-speed solar train proposed as Tucson-Phoenix connection
Project, in idea stage, could cost $27B for 1st phase
By Mariana Alvarado
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 05.08.2009
advertisement

A Tucson company wants to send you someday on a sun-fueled ride from one end of the state to the other.
The idea of a high-speed train that runs on solar power is still in its early stage, but the project's creators are pitching the idea to area cities and potential investors.
The idea is to start a train system that connects Tucson and Phoenix in a first phase. In the future it would extend north to Grand Canyon and south to Nogales. The cost for the first phase alone is estimated at $27 billion.
It could start operating in 2018.
Retired civil engineer Bill Gaither and business partner Raymond Wright set up Solar Bullet LLC in Tucson in hopes of designing and building the 220 mph solar bullet train, which would run on four tracks.
The innermost two tracks would be reserved for nonstop travel from Tucson to Phoenix, going 116 miles in a half hour, said Gaither.
The other tracks would serve six intermediate stations in Chandler, Maricopa, Casa Grande, Eloy, Red Rock and Marana, extending the Phoenix-Tucson travel time to approximately 60 minutes, according to the project outline.
The rail could open up new opportunities for economic development in those cities, said Gaither. The train would require 110 megawatts of electricity and would operate with solar power generated from overhead panels. It would have a dedicated right-of-way.
Wright and Gaither met in 2008 during a Tucsonans for Sensible Transit meeting and worked together on the project. They are currently working independently.
Wright has recently consulted with the engineering department at the University of Arizona to propose the system for federal funding. He figures his timing is right, given President Obama's push for alternative energy transportation projects.
Gaither is looking to city officials at each of the intermediate stations and asking them to put up $5,000 toward the $35,000 needed for an economic and tax revenue analysis before the project moves forward. He is also organizing a workshop later this year for the intermediate cities.
A local transportation official said the solar-train idea may be worth further study but faces major obstacles.
"It's a really fascinating concept. The price tag is quite high," said Gary Hayes, executive director of the Pima Association of Governments and the Regional Transportation Authority.
Hayes said he's met the solar-train organizers to talk about the concept, including the possibility of local government support for the economic analysis.
He noted that a Tucson-Phoenix passenger train has been talked about for years, and the state Transportation Department is conducting a study of the concept under a U.S. grant.
But Hayes said arranging the billions in government funding likely needed for the train would be tough, especially since the Tucson-Phoenix route was not on a list of priority high-speed rail corridors released recently by the Obama administration.
"First and foremost, you'd have to get on that list and then go from there," Hayes said.
Still, he's not ready to dismiss the idea out of hand.
"I would characterize it as, if you're going to plan, plan big; if you're going to dream, dream big," Hayes said.

[Don B.]

^ Man, that is just tits. I love it!

It will never see the light of day in this notoriously cheap-assed state, however. Not when people piss and moan over a $40 monthly increase in their (already absurdly low) property tax bill.

--don

[mwadswor]

The thing can't be completely independent of the power grid unless they're planning on never running it in the early morning or late evening or night, so I wonder if they could also sell it as a solar power plant. It generates power for itself when it's running during the day, draws some power from the grid when it's running at night, and all other times during the day the train gets to sell excess power to the normal power companies. Interesting. Although, as I think about it, I'm not really sure I buy their price. $27 billion dollars sounds like a lot of money, but between the brand new right of way, completely new high-quality infrastructure, new equipment to run on it, and almost 120 miles of solar panels, it's probably going to cost waaaay more. The ROW, rails, or solar panels alone could each cost close to that much.

Anyway, I like the idea of commuter rail from Nogales to Flagstaff, but 220 mph seems excessively expensive to cut an hour trip to a half hour trip. I don't really don't think people traveling such a short distance are going to notice that half hour difference. Don't get me wrong, I completely support true high speed rail where it's justified, I just don't think the expense is justified here.

Besides, 220 mph sounds great from Tucson to Phoenix, but does anyone know if it's even possible to run a 220 mph train from Phoenix to Flagstaff? Is there a route where the grade's shallow enough to let a train run that fast up the mountains and for it to be safe to run it that fast back down the mountains? Between the need for the extra power from Phoenix up to Flagstaff and the short distances involved this seems like a route that screams 90 or 110 mph.

[glynnjamin]

Oh man that is almost hilarious. The amount of solar panels to generate that much wattage would be enormous. Then you add to it the fact that you need TWICE that if you want to run one going each direction. It would HAVE to pull power from the grid.

Then he wants four tracks!?! We can't even get ONE track built for a god damn slow train. Where is he going to find the right of way to build four tracks...especially once he hits the city.

There's simply no way you can run the train at over 60mph inside the city. Even that seems fast. Once you hit Chandler or Marana, your speed would drop off. So for about 70miles, you could go 220mph, which isn't bad, but I don't think you could do the trip in 30minutes.

Finally...elevated? Really? No wonder it would cost so much money. I mean, I get the need for route priority and not having some coyote walking on the tracks, but the idea that you would have four tracks, with possibly two trains running at once, elevated, going somewhere between 116mph and 220mph - sounds terrifying. It would be like that scene in Batman where the EL comes off the track and crashes through the city.

Nice pipe dream though.

[Akatosh]

Solar technology is reaching a parity for price and performance that could eventually make it feasible for such an idea. Just because current silicon tech is not up to standards for conventional energy sources doesn't mean that most of the track should be energy-subsidized by the sun, arguably Arizona's largest resource.

Even if Solar power did not completely cover the energy costs of the line for both directions, it would employ thousands of people, and boost Arizona's solar sector, which needs to grow anyway.

Even if 25-50% was Solar powered, it would greatly reduce overhead costs for the line, reducing fare requirements, perhaps. Though I am not sure what is factored into fares, whether it is the distance, or "just charge enough to cover costs".

But I still wholly support any proposal that utilizes energy from the sun, wind, or geothermal.

[oliveurban]

I like it. Whatever it takes to get people seriously thinking about high-speed rail in this state, the better.

[CANUC]

http://www.azstarnet.com/ss/2009/05/08/292000-1.jpg

I like the idea of high speed rail. The illustration is cheesy and cheep, so not much hope theirs serious people behind. But I question the need. Maybe I'm missing something but what is the real business application, whether tourism or something else, that would warrant any kind of rail connection between Phoenix and Tucson? Is there really that much business interaction between the cities to produce a need for rail?

[combusean]

Finally...elevated? Really? No wonder it would cost so much money. I mean, I get the need for route priority and not having some coyote walking on the tracks, but the idea that you would have four tracks, with possibly two trains running at once, elevated, going somewhere between 116mph and 220mph - sounds terrifying. It would be like that scene in Batman where the EL comes off the track and crashes through the city.


"Terrifying?" Did you become a Biltmore NIMBY last night? WILL PEOPLE DIE?! :D

edit, to actually make this a constructive conversation and not be a dick.


There's simply no way you can run the train at over 60mph inside the city. Even that seems fast. Once you hit Chandler or Marana, your speed would drop off. So for about 70miles, you could go 220mph, which isn't bad, but I don't think you could do the trip in 30minutes.

The purpose of elevating it is to run that fast. The faster the train goes the more it needs to be separated from grade. Elevating it with express tracks is a "pipe dream" but is worth supporting. It is a statewide system in itself that might put us a few years AHEAD of the curve for transportation for once.

If their estimates are good, the ROW comes from the state or UP along the existing lines there's no reason it can't be done. I would gladly pay a big sales and property tax to connect the nodes of this state by something other than the car.

Another edit: Their estimates pass my first ballpark. $300 million a mile should cover this if the ROW is free which isn't out of the question given the transport corridors that already exist.

$200 million is about what elevated urban heavy rail goes for, add another $100 million for the fancy stuff. Who knows, the fact that some part of it is self powered should also reduce their need for substation infrastructure and if it has transmission capacity APS would be wise to jump on it as well.

[combusean]

And it's also worth noting that the company that would be one of the best candidates for the solar panels themselves would be First Solar, and they're headquartered here.

That this could also serve as a demonstration project for large scale solar corridors could get even the Department of Energy involved.

[glynnjamin]

Is there such a thing as elevated high speed rail? As far as I know, the only HSR tracks are on the ground. Seems to me there is a reason for this and it is safety.

The reason I say that the train would have to slow down in the city is because of turns - not because of speed limits or something. There is no way to do a straight route from Chandler to Union Station without making a few turns that would all be within 5-10 miles of each other. The train can't make turns at 220mph.

I guess I forgot to say that I thought the premise of the idea was great and that I would love to see it happen. I think that scaling the project back to ONE track and a train that leaves every 2 hours (shuttling back and forth) is a better way to go. They should also look at adding those wind turbine things (like they want to put on the freeway) to power the train along with the solar.

[combusean]

If it uses the UP mainline between here and Tucson by way of Florence and Queen Creak, it comes in at a diagonal and turns to the section between Broadway and Apache at a 45 degree angle. Then from there it's 2 90 degree curves to Union Station in Tempe proper. Not too bad.

Elevated HSR has to exist--I'm 99% sure I've seen pictures of corridors in Europe where the train is on a concreted bed supported by pillars because there isn't much ground in some of the mountain passes these rail corridors exist.

Scaling back the project would just make it lame and my support for it would start to thin. One track is just not enough--two at the very least with room to expand. I think once you start building the pillars going that much further to support more tracks becomes trivial. And it's not going to be remotely fast unless it has substantial grade separation.

[PhxPavilion]

I don't see the need for something like this between Phoenix and Tucson, it strikes me as a waste of money. Maybe between Phoenix and Las Vegas, with stops along the way at Flagstaff and the Grand Canyon? Or between Phoenix and San Diego.

[HooverDam]

I don't see the need for something like this between Phoenix and Tucson, it strikes me as a waste of money. Maybe between Phoenix and Las Vegas, with stops along the way at Flagstaff and the Grand Canyon? Or between Phoenix and San Diego.

While their may not be a need for it between Phoenix and Tucson right now (debatable) part of building infrastructure is planning ahead. Phoenix and Tucson are both growing quickly and will continue to in the long run (even if we have a little blip of slow down in the short term) and I could certainly see it being a need in the future. Also a line that eventually runs from the Mexican boarder to the Grand Canyon would be huge for our large tourism industry.

[NIXPHX77]

PHX31 has it right from what i understand.

if we want this to happen, then based on the Fed's criteria, it has to go down I-10. and costs will be much lower as the freeway was designed when built with that plan in mind (mass transit down its median.)

now if they could only figure out what to do w/ that station under Central.
i hate seeing it unused. and related, I-10 really needs to be "finished" betw. I-17 and SR-51. that wide, dirt median needs something done to it re: function and aesthetics.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

The Obama visit for the ASU Graduation is going to effect METRO and buses for several hours:

http://www.tempe.gov/streetclosures/Notice.aspx?NoticeID=acbfb214-6dbd-45f4-96c1-bee9461afff4

[HooverDam]

So someone started a Facebook group promoting HSR in Phoenix:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=80151946477

Not that joining a Facebook group necessarily gets anything accomplished, but it made me feel good either way.

I was looking at Ye Olde Google Maps, trying to figure out a North-South HSR that would involve Phoenix, does this make any sense or is it retarded?

(Hermosillo)
Tucson
Phoenix
Flagstaff
Grand Canyon Nat'l Park
Las Vegas
St George
Salt Lake City
Ogden
Pocatello
Yellowstone Nat'l Park
Helena
Missoula
Glacier Nat'l Park
(Calgary)
(Edmonton)

Obviously with the sparse population in the Northern Cities it wouldn't be a super high priority line, the Tucson-LV core would be most important. However with National Parks that attract about 6.7 million visitors a year along the line, perhaps that would make up for the lack of major cities. Plus both Calgary (1.16M) and Edmonton (1M) are large as Canadian cities go.

[Tempe_Duck]

The Obama visit for the ASU Graduation is going to effect METRO and buses for several hours:

http://www.tempe.gov/streetclosures/Notice.aspx?NoticeID=acbfb214-6dbd-45f4-96c1-bee9461afff4


Has anyone heard anything about the airport. I know at least one if not both of the southern runways have their approach slope right over and near the stadium. Will they divert planes to the West side of the airport or just close it down while he is here?

[mwadswor]

What a pain in the ass. Why would they close the light rail right where it's most useful for those trying to get to the stadium from the east end of the line (like me)? Is it an issue of how close the line comes to where Obama will be standing? There's enough concrete in the south end of that stadium that someone'd have to blow off a nuke to risk hurting him or anyone in the stadium, which they could still do from either the rural/university or 5th/college station.

Also, I don't see it on the valley metro website. Does anyone know if the Orbits will be affected?

[NIXPHX77]

if you're attending the graduation like i am and taking Metro, i think we will be OK. it says service stops at 6 pm westbound at university/rural, but folks are supposed to be lined up by 4:30 to get in. so, i don't think this will affect our arrival. i plan to take metro from mesa at about 3:30 in a group of six, so i hope this works. but why 9:30 pm to re-open the segment? does the graduation go for 2-1/2 hours? the event (opening acts?) starts at 5, w/ the President's address at 7. i'm really looking forward to this.

[PHX_PD]

^ Here's the schedule of events according to AzCentral... it looks like it will last that long:

Alice Cooper pre-ceremony appearance: 6 p.m., Runaway Phoenix featuring Dash Cooper with guest Alice Cooper.

Pre-ceremony show ends: 6:47 p.m.

ASU President Michael Crow's greetings: 7:25 p.m.

President Barack Obama's speech: 7:52 p.m.

Presentation of President Barack Obama Scholars, followed by distribution of diplomas: 8:08 p.m.

Fireworks: 9:11 p.m.

Fireworks end, field is cleared: 9:17 p.m.

[Tempe_Duck]

Looks like ValleyMetro Rail has listened to the complaints about the number and placement of the maps on the trains. There are now two maps per car section. They are above the doors (alternating sides), they are also a new style. The downtown section looks like a oval notating that they are a block apart.

They are also pushing people to "tap" their Metro Passes. In the location the old maps were is a display encouraging people to "tap" their cards.

[Leo the Dog]

I think eventually, Metro is going to separate the "starter line" into two lines that overlap each other in DT. I'm just speculating, but it makes sense to me, especially once extensions come online in Tempe/Mesa and NW Phoenix. They built turnarounds at roughly 12 St and another one at McKinley.

Could cut down on delays as the line goes from 58 mins end to end to possibly 75-80 minutes with extensions in place. Does this make sense to anyone else?

[combusean]

No, because unless capacity issues are the reason for the delays, cutting the line in half isn't going to solve anything. Other branches, like I-10 west could terminate downtown but only if there were no way to run them further.

[plinko]

^I still wouldn't be surprised to see a re-do of the lines when and if there are future lines built. This happened in Sacramento. There was a single line that ran from the NE end of town to DT and then East. That single line opened in 1987. When the south extension opened in 2002, they made it part of the line that ran to the NE. The line that ran East was extended to the west end of downtown to connect to the Amtrak station and to become a part of a future airport line. The two lines form a skewed 'X' (well, one of the legs is missing but will become the airport line).

I could see the I-10 extension being tied in with the E-W section of the existing starter line along Washington out to Mesa. That would allow the Central Ave portion to be extended to the south to South Phoenix.

Given the grid system in Phoenix, it's very easy to see how that could work.

[combusean]

The OP made an issue of splitting the two in half downtown and only considered the extensions to NW Phoenix and Mesa.

A south Phoenix line isn't on any agenda--those that are: take 3 routes that spur from downtown, the Capitol, Metro Center, and PV Mall lines and my guess is that the "Red Line" will as it always has connected Metrocenter and Mesa.

Re a Central Avenue line: who knows. They could involve numerous routes anyway they wanted, it all depends on commuting patterns.

[plinko]

^Got it. Yeah, splitting the existing line doesn't make any sense as it is currently configured.

The fact that a line to South Phoenix isn't even in long range planning at the moment is staggering to me. Run it down Central to Baseline, turn east and at least run it to South Mountain CC. I'd love to see that line run all the way from there up to Central and Hatcher to service Sunnyslope and John C. Lincoln hospital. Then again, it might make more sense to run a central line on 7th Street north of Camelback and then up toward Dreamy Draw.

I don't know...my basic point is that Central should be the spine. All the future lines should converge in some capacity along Central somewhere between Buckeye Road and Camelback. Kind of the way that BART works in SF. An I-10 to Airport to Tempe-Mesa line could serve as a crosstown line.

Maybe I just think too big.

Sean, didn't you have a really cool map you did of what you felt should be future lines? Can you post it again?

[combusean]

A specific line isn't planned down S Central Avenue and E/W Baseline Rd,

but those two roads are, along with easily 100 other miles, "eligible high capacity transit corridors"

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/rtp_high_capacity_corridors.png

from pdf page 120 of http://www.mag.maricopa.gov/detail.cms?item=7091

BRT, commuter rail, and LRT extentions are all the same dashed-blue color on this map but the
specific mode per corridor is pretty clear except around 48th St/I-10

BRT/LRT on the freeways, commuter rail on freight tracks, and LRT extending from where it is now.

given that there's no funding source for these corridors I don't really consider them because I'll be 90 years old by the time they're done.

[Tempe_Duck]

Last night on my way to the airport I saw a 4 car train at the 44th and Washington station. Has anybody else see one of these guys?

I also got stopped by police at the airport and was lucky enough to see the Presidential motorcade enter the airport and Air Force One take off. The size of his motorcade was massive. Must have been at least 30 vehicles including 3 SWAT trucks.

[digital phoenix]

I was under the impression that 4-car trains were too big for both station platforms and downtown phoenix city blocks. Are you sure the train was carrying people or on its way to the service yard?

[nickkoto]

I don't know about the downtown blocks, but 4 car trains are definitely too big for the platforms. On every platform I've had the chance to compare, they're pretty much the same length as 3 full cars from bumper to bumper

[Tempe_Duck]

I was under the impression that 4-car trains were too big for both station platforms and downtown phoenix city blocks. Are you sure the train was carrying people or on its way to the service yard?

Yes, there were people in the train. It was letting people on and off at the station. I was under the impression 4 car tains were too long as well. I can't say for sure if there were people in the last train, I was too shocked at the 4 car to actually look into it.

[pbenjamin]

Yes, there were people in the train. It was letting people on and off at the station. I was under the impression 4 car tains were too long as well. I can't say for sure if there were people in the last train, I was too shocked at the 4 car to actually look into it.

I am fairly confident that there is no such thing as a four car train. It is possible to see the articulation and get confused when counting cars.

[Vicelord John]

i saw a 16 car train the other day are you guys calling me a liar?

[Tempe_Duck]

I am fairly confident that there is no such thing as a four car train. It is possible to see the articulation and get confused when counting cars.

I know what a train car looks like. It wasn't the articulation. There were 4 cars, I counted them 2 or 3 times, because I was so shocked.

[glynnjamin]

You know, my mother works on Central & Palm and she called and asked me "What are the 4-car trains for?" and I said...There are no 4-car trains because the stations aren't long enough and 4 car trains would be longer than a E/W city block in downtown Phx so it wouldn't work. She's like 63 and gets a little crazy sometimes so I didn't bother to bring it up...

But apparently someone else saw it. Not saying it is true but offering another account of what Tempe Duck saw.

[vertex]

Last night on my way to the airport I saw a 4 car train at the 44th and Washington station. Has anybody else see one of these guys?


I've seen 6 car trains lined up on Washington near the spur, but this only happens after they've shut down for the night.

Given the traffic after the graduation ceremony last Wednesday in Tempe, they may have been running 4-car trains out to some of the Park & Ride stations.

[pbenjamin]

I will believe in four car trains when I see one.

[NIXPHX77]

yes, the trains and platforms were packed before and esp. after ASU's graduation Wed. nite.
it was very encouraging to see all the folks using/trying transit.
i do wish they would have left the tempe transp. center station open however.

glynnjamin - i think you owe your mother an apology!

[HooverDam]

Not really news/development, but its nice to see the Republic talking about architecture and doing it through the lents of the rail:

http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/stage/articles/2009/05/15/20090515lightrail0517.html

New rail, new view of architecture
From Metro, Valley takes on a different look
1 comment by Richard Nilsen - May. 15, 2009 01:08 AM
The Arizona Republic
The best way to take the architectural pulse of the city is to slice it crosswise, open it up and peek inside.

Light rail architecture tour
Public art along the light rail

Buildings to watch for along the rail
There's a lot to see riding the light rail from end to end. Paying attention is the main thing. Look at everything you can and pick your most and least favorites.
Here are five buildings to watch for, one from each of the five legs of the light-rail route:

• 19th Avenue leg - Arizona Federal Credit Union, 5151 N. 19th Ave., Phoenix. A circular, upside-down pyramid, it's one of three upside-down pyramids in the Valley. Such buildings shade themselves.

• Central Corridor - Phoenix Financial Center, 3443 N. Central Ave. This is the noted "Punch-Card Building," which has two circular satellite buildings at its foot. It's one of the most distinctive buildings in the Valley.

• Washington Street leg - Auto repair shop, 1514 E. Washington St., Phoenix. This tiny shop has been painted with a blue front, a yellow frieze that reads "Full Auto Repair" and sunrise rays at the peak.

• Tempe leg - Convenience store, 1148 S. Terrace Road, Tempe. This relic of the past is one of the few remaining stores of the original 1950s design for the first Circle Ks in Arizona.

• Mesa leg - Watson's Flowers, 2425 E. Apache Blvd., Tempe. This simple Art Deco building, with its wonderful glass-block windows and curved facade, is a simple but elegant remainder from the Valley's architectural past.
- Richard Nilsen

And the best way to do that is to ride the light rail from end to end. It's a Gray Line tour, without the annoying tour guide.

It's a chance to see your city again for the first time. You sit in your seat and gawk out the window as the city passes, too fast to focus on a single building for long but perfect to soak in a general impression of the city.

For what makes up a city is the aggregate, not the individual buildings. Too often, when we write or talk about architecture, we look at an isolated building here or there, as if they were works of art in frames, separately considered, with no relation to what surrounds it.

But that isn't how we actually experience architecture. Instead, we live in it, walk through it, breathe its air-conditioning, seek its shade. We move from one building to the next, drive to a third and work in a fourth. The architecture is as much a part of our daily lives as air.

Even great cities, such as New York and Paris, are more memorable for their mix than for any great masterpieces.

And it isn't just the buildings: It's the sum total of all the human-made environment, from office towers to street signs. And on the light rail, you get something very like a World's Fair Futurama ride through the bricks and mortar of the city.

Get on anywhere. For $2.50, you can ride all day. The ride from end to end and back should take you about 2 1/2 hours. Early morning or late afternoon are the best times, when the sun isn't directly overhead blasting the world into a visual flatness.

Two things stand out: One is how ugly most of the human landscape is; the other is how much better the architecture is getting. There is a renaissance of design, from corporate towers to trendy condos.

So, what will you see? First of all, a lot of stucco.

If there is a city signature, it is writ in stucco. It's the bland goo that is the cake frosting of the Valley. It's the universal of building construction, as ubiquitous as logs were on the frontier or sandstone in Paris. It's cheap, it's easy and it's boring. Seeing so much stucco in one gulp will give you aesthetic indigestion. Bring a bromo.

As you ride along this arbitrary zipper line through the heart of Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa, you notice how poorly most of the buildings are designed. Whether they're cheesy remnants of a negligent past or the heedless constructions of the present, they are blotches along the road rather than garlands.

Of course, any city looked at with a cold eye will show you the same: dusty, trashy, empty lots surrounded by chain-link fences, next to old storefronts repainted and hand-lettered by amateurs, covered in magic-marker sale signs. Sidewalks with no plantings, powerlines strangling the sky.

The unconsidered corners of the urban experience, waiting for someone to notice and make use of them, or forgotten remnants of architecture past, left to wrack and ruin.

But there are two primary ways of failing. Neglect is one, but the other is more pernicious: bad design.

First there's overt bad design - that is, architects who have had a bad idea or plain bad taste - and second, there are those buildings with no design at all, created from templates or thrown together quickly by low-bid builders.

The second is more common: As you pass pharmacies, schools, condos, Starbucks, auto-repair shops, churches, you realize that the real enemy of good architecture is not so much badly designed buildings as un-designed buildings.

Some of those are merely banal: the McDonalds and shopping malls.

Our city is killing us with banality. I hear from readers who hate the new Henkel building in Scottsdale or have never liked ASU Gammage in Tempe, but I can't fathom why they build up such hatred, when all around are the soul-draining sameness of mini malls, gas stations and KFCs.

Landscapes along route


The Metro route traverses five distinct kinds of urban landscape. From the north, along 19th Avenue, you see 50-year-old tract housing, those cookie-cutter homes that recall the conformist 1950s of gray-flannel suits and Levittown American dreams gone to seed.
Farther south, along Central Avenue, the train passes the corporate heart of the Valley, with its two-hearted downtown, the upper rank of corporate towers from Indian School to Thomas roads and the older downtown clustered from Jefferson to Van Buren streets. The oldest notable building is the Luhrs Tower, from 1929 - built just before the stock-market crash - and the still-unfinished One Central Park East - begun before the current crash.

As the rails run east along Jefferson and Washington streets, from Phoenix to Tempe, the way is marked by cairns of gravel, for-lease signs, empty warehouses and vacant lots, interrupted occasionally by chain hotels and punctuated by Tovrea Castle and the Castle Megastore adult shop.

Fourth is Tempe, the college town, starting at the Mill Avenue Bridge and passing Sun Devil Stadium and a host of downtown shops and student housing.

Finally, from Tempe to Mesa, you find an endless run of mini malls and apartment complexes. It tends to be neat but unmemorable. It is the bland center of the Valley, with only sad reminders of the many old U.S. 60 motels, turned into residences with kitchenette signs out front.

View getting better?


Yet, along the whole length of the trip, there are indications that things are changing. There are new corporate buildings with an eye to design. They may not be great architecture, but they're at least thoughtful, with some attention paid to the exterior.
There is the First Solar building at Washington Street and Mill Avenue, Tempe's Hayden Ferry Lakeside, with its two football-shaped office towers, and One Central Park East in downtown Phoenix - all of them new office space that is more interesting.

And there arecondos and apartments springing up, like the Artisan Parkview on Washington and Seventh streets, the Lofts at Rio Salado on Washington and between Center Parkway and Priest Drive, and the Metro Manor on 19th Avenue and Colter Street - all of them intended to attract tenants or owners based on interesting design and a desire for urban living.

It isn't only the shiny new buildings. Even some of the older structures have been retro-fit, as it were, to make them more interesting.

The enemy is not bad taste, but blandness. A certain quotient of bad taste is necessary for a lively city.

So, while we applaud the renaissance in high-end architecture in the Valley, we have to notice that the light rail passes its share of brightly colored vernacular architecture, like the auto-repair shop at Washington and 15th streets, or the bright-red tattoo parlor at Camelback Road and 15th Avenue.

The desire for an interesting environment comes from the bottom up as well as the top down.

This rebirth of architectural interest can probably be dated to the construction in 1995 of the Burton Barr Central Library, designed by local architect Will Bruder. Since then, we've had our share of other new buildings by a handful of other local architects and a few imports from elsewhere. There isn't room to name them all: Eddie Jones and John Chonka, even those working for large architectural firms, who produce most of the big buildings. Then there was Antone Predock's plans for ASU's Nelson Fine Arts Center and the Arizona Science Center, or Richard Meier's fatally flawed but ambitious design for the Sandra Day O'Connor Federal Courthouse.

The battle is not won. We still have our portion of bad design, even among the new.

Just when you feel good about the pleasant stone and glass exterior of the new Phoenix Convention Center, you have to notice that the new downtown Sheraton is a Gumby-headed tombstone. Some buildings are designed by creative architects; others by engineers. The Sheraton looks like it was designed by accountants. Even its color scheme is bad: the dusty liver and tan were the same colors J.C. Penney sold in towels and tablecloths in the mid-1980s. It's not old enough to be retro yet, merely boring.

And not every new condo escapes the slather of generic stucco.

But cities are never done. They just keep changing. A city is a process, not a thing.

But the desire to live and work in a built environment that is interesting is a sign of civic and urban awareness.

And the view from the tram is looking up.


Buildings to watch for along the rail
There's a lot to see riding the light rail from end to end. Paying attention is the main thing. Look at everything you can and pick your most and least favorites.
Here are five buildings to watch for, one from each of the five legs of the light-rail route:

• 19th Avenue leg - Arizona Federal Credit Union, 5151 N. 19th Ave., Phoenix. A circular, upside-down pyramid, it's one of three upside-down pyramids in the Valley. Such buildings shade themselves.

• Central Corridor - Phoenix Financial Center, 3443 N. Central Ave. This is the noted "Punch-Card Building," which has two circular satellite buildings at its foot. It's one of the most distinctive buildings in the Valley.

• Washington Street leg - Auto repair shop, 1514 E. Washington St., Phoenix. This tiny shop has been painted with a blue front, a yellow frieze that reads "Full Auto Repair" and sunrise rays at the peak.

• Tempe leg - Convenience store, 1148 S. Terrace Road, Tempe. This relic of the past is one of the few remaining stores of the original 1950s design for the first Circle Ks in Arizona.

• Mesa leg - Watson's Flowers, 2425 E. Apache Blvd., Tempe. This simple Art Deco building, with its wonderful glass-block windows and curved facade, is a simple but elegant remainder from the Valley's architectural past.

[HX_Guy]

Metro light rail hits million mark in April
Phoenix Business Journal

Metro light rail topped the million mark for passengers in April and increased its average daily ridership.

Metro tallied 1.04 million boardings in April, up nearly 7 percent from a previous record of 972,962 boardings in March.

Metro had an average weekday ridership of 37,386 in April, average Saturday ridership of 32,720 and average Sunday and holiday ridership of 22,694. The average weekday ridership in March was 34,376, average Saturday ridership was 28,537, and average Sunday and holiday ridership was 20,508.

To celebrate topping the 1 million-rider mark, Metro is launching One in One Million. The contest calls for riders to share positive experiences on a Metro train or in a station area. The stories will be posted online in June. The winner will receive 30 all-day transit passes, a gift bag and behind-the-scenes access to the light-rail system.

For more: www.metrolightrail.org/onemillion.

[combusean]

Council to vote Monday on light-rail future in Mesa
by Gary Nelson
May. 15, 2009 12:32 PM
The Arizona Republic

It's probably a foregone conclusion, but that doesn't diminish the import of Monday night's City Council vote on the future of Mesa's light rail line.

The expected vote is yes - so much so that the first draft of the council's agenda included light rail among numerous far more routine items to be decided on a single motion, without debate.

It's not going to be quite that open and shut, however; Mayor Scott Smith said Thursday the public will have its say.

The meeting begins at 5:45 p.m. at 57 E. First St.

When transit officials laid out the proposal in a public forum last month, several people raised objections. Some didn't like the planned route, and others were worried that construction would strangle businesses along the line.

Assuming the council sticks with the proposal on the table, the vote will mean:

* Extending light rail from the Sycamore station along Main Street to roughly Mesa Drive, radically altering the character and appearance of Mesa's downtown. Anticipated completion: 2015 - although there is talk of pushing that back a year because of regional transit budget problems.
* As soon as possible thereafter, extending the line down Main Street to Gilbert Road, which transit officials think is a much more logical end-of-the-line than Mesa Drive. The big hangup on that is money; the regional transportation plan provides no funding beyond the downtown terminus.
* Assuming an extension to Gilbert Road, a future City Council would decide whether light rail will eventually reach Mesa's economically vital Gateway area and, if so, by what route.

Regional transit officials, with public input, spent two years studying how to extend "high-capacity" mass transit through central Mesa before announcing their recommendation in March.

They looked at buses and decided trains were cheaper in the long run because they're more durable.

They also looked at running the line along either First Street or First Avenue through downtown. Main Street, they decided, would cost less money, produce a faster ride and attract more passengers.

The projected cost: $182 million if Main Street is configured for two lanes of traffic. If planners opt for four traffic lanes, construction will cost another $2 million.

Planners expect the federal government to cover 53 percent of the project and a county transportation sales tax the rest.

In addition to the resolution authorizing the light rail extension, the council also will vote Monday to create an advisory group, including affected property and business owners, to develop design guidelines and to help businesses survive construction.

[PHX31]

I got a response from Valley Metro regarding that bus pull out/shelter on Thomas that I've been complaining about (in case anyone cares). Apparently there have been some legal issues going on with the land owner just south of the bus shelter (a pay-to-park lot) that's why it hasn't been put into use yet. So stupid.

[glynnjamin]

So refresh my memory, is the lot south of the current stop or the one you want them to move to?

[Vicelord John]

I got a response from Valley Metro regarding that bus pull out/shelter on Thomas that I've been complaining about (in case anyone cares). Apparently there have been some legal issues going on with the land owner just south of the bus shelter (a pay-to-park lot) that's why it hasn't been but into use yet. So stupid.

I would explain to the land owners that they may fuck themselves.