Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[PHX NATIVE 929]

I have to transfer. It's NOT that bad. I actually look forward on the evening transfers from the Route 76 Bus to the METRO at the TTC because I get to check-out the awesome looking building.

It really sucks because Scottsdale does not want LRT (well, it's the vocal minority that doesn't want it - most people in the city government actually like light rail).

I should be fine, granted it'll only be once a week.

-Andrew

Andrew,

In your opinion, where would the most logical line for LRT to run through Scottsdale be? You'd essentially have to choose between Scottsdale Rd, Hayden, or Pima, correct?

[HX_Guy]

I read of a route on AZCentral (of all places) that sounded pretty good...

Run the light rail from Central/Camelback east on Camelback past the Biltmore to Scottsdale Rd, right by Scottsdale Fashion Square, then south on Scottsdale Rd and meet up with the Tempe line.

[Vicelord John]

Im a supporter of the hub and spoke system so fuck linking it from scottsdale to tempe. If they dont wanna come to the city, dont give em trains

[Azndragon837]

Andrew,

In your opinion, where would the most logical line for LRT to run through Scottsdale be? You'd essentially have to choose between Scottsdale Rd, Hayden, or Pima, correct?

Wow, that's a pretty good question. Ohhhh, I get to do some transportation planning! :D

(15 minutes later)

The most logical line for the LRT would be (in my opinion):

1. Start the line from the Center Parkway/Washington Street Station (Papago Park Center), east down Curry Road, and turn north (left) onto Scottsdale Road. My logic for this route instead of the Rural Road route is because of the massive headache to run a new line from: University/Rural Station up the congested Rural & University intersection, cross the Tempe Town Lake Bridge (which may have to be retrofitted for LRT tracks), and under the crowded Loop 202 interchange with Scottsdale Road. By using a station (Center/Washington) that's already across the lake and the 202 freeway, it can easily be branched off from the main starter line, AND be closer to get into either Downtown Tempe or Phoenix if you are coming in from Scottsdale. The Papago Park Center Station can develop into it's own transit hub and commercial/residential complex.

The Currey Road alignment would benefit a part of Papago Park, and serve a cluster of townhouses, apartments, condos and a shopping center at Curry and Scottsdale Roads.

2. Run METRO up Scottsdale Road and connect it with SkySong at McDowell Road, which would benefit the "connectivity" between SkySong, ASU Tempe, and ASU Downtown Phoenix.

3. Run METRO up Scottsdale Road and serve the businesses and the 1950s-1960s era neighborhoods along the way. This area is ripe for redevelopment, and Scottsdale's long range planning department is proposing a new overlay zoning district called PUD (Planned Unit Development) for property owners to use in this part of town. It is intended to encourage innovative and responsive design in developments that often include a mix of both residential and nonresidential uses. Definitely TOD adaptive.

4. Branch METRO up Scottsdale Road and veer east onto the Drinkwater Boulevard couplet at Earll Drive. This will bypass Old Town. The City Council has major issues with light rail going through Old Town on Scottsdale Road because of the damage it will do to the Old Town streetscape and to local businesses, so I figure this is a good compromise.

5. The Drinkwater Boulevard route will serve the following: Scottsdale Healthcare Osborn Hospital, Scottsdale Stadium, the Scottsdale Civic Mall, the Scottsdale Center for the Arts, the library, City Hall, One Civic Center (where all the city departments are located, including Planning), the Mondrian Hotel, several major apartments and office buildings on Indian School Road, the Galleria Corporate Center, the Entertainment District (where all the clubs and bars are), AND be close enough (walking distance) to Old Town and Downtown.

6. Reconnect with Scottsdale Road just south of Camelback Road, and end the line there at Scottsdale Fashion Square. This station will serve the mall, the Scottsdale Waterfront, a bunch of retail shops and restaurants, several condominium projects, and a few new hotels.

7. The Camelback Road/Scottsdale Road Station will allow transportation planners to consider either finding a way to connect it to the Loop 101 to go straight into the Scottsdale Airpark - but that's years away. Maybe they might consider BRT? For now, I think at least connecting the train to the heart of Scottsdale will benefit everyone.

The issue that may surface about the Drinkwater Route is the "dip" and tunnel under the Civic Center Mall before you hit Indian School Road. It's a pretty significant grade change that might affect the train's ability to go down the grade without "bottoming out" and go back up without too much of a hassle in regards to horsepower. Engineers might level the grade a little more, and I think it can be done.

Running METRO up into Scottsdale will cause massive headaches to the small businesses along Scottsdale Road, but it will benefit the South Scottsdale area in the long run, especially if the city wants to see the area redevelop as a "knowledge" community, with SkySong anchoring the area, complete with shops, eats, and new residences along the entire route. Talk about redevelopment!

My two cents. :tup: What are your thoughts guys?

-Andrew

[bwonger06]

I read of a route on AZCentral (of all places) that sounded pretty good...

Run the light rail from Central/Camelback east on Camelback past the Biltmore to Scottsdale Rd, right by Scottsdale Fashion Square, then south on Scottsdale Rd and meet up with the Tempe line.

Its a cool route, but scottsdale will fight it and i think LR down scottsdale rd would be a disaster. It is already a disaster trying to go down and i cannot imagine it with construction. I would rather see them cut through waterfront/the canal somehow and use drinkwater/goldwater to run through old town and reconnect on scottsdale around osborn or thomas.

I would actually love to see a LR rail replace the old blue line route, that way, you have the rail also serving people in the north valley.


BTW, rode the rail down to tempe to have dinner with some friends. The ride down was decently packed (seats were available though). Return trip around 7-7:30, the train was pretty much dead. By the time i got off on central and camelback, there were only 7 people left on our car, do not know about the other. Have to wait another two weeks till school starts back up for true usual ridership.

[Azndragon837]

I read of a route on AZCentral (of all places) that sounded pretty good...

Run the light rail from Central/Camelback east on Camelback past the Biltmore to Scottsdale Rd, right by Scottsdale Fashion Square, then south on Scottsdale Rd and meet up with the Tempe line.

That's another pretty good idea. You may run into opposition from the rich folks of Arcadia that live between 44th Street and 64th Street. METRO can skip building a station between those streets so that the trains can glide right through. It's all rural residential anyways.

This line then can connect at Scottsdale Fashion Square and continue south per the plan I posted prior to this one.

I really don't see the route happening. It's a long shot, but I think running a line into Scottsdale from Tempe instead of Phoenix is better off.

-Andrew

[HooverDam]

Andrew, I like your plan, though have a few minor differences that Id like to see.

First, why spoke off of the Center/Washington Station? To me it makes more sense to go from the Priest/Washington Station. Now on the downside for far South Scottsdale this means they get bypassed. But Phoenix would want this because it means connecting to Phx Muny, the Zoo, DBG and Papago Park. Then run East on McDowell and connect to Skysong.

I agree with you that Scottsdale will never allow LRT in Old Town, which is why Drinkwater seems like the logical solution. I'd like it to run up Drinkwater, then West on Indian School to Goldwater and then North from there to best serve the mall, offices, waterfront and Camelview. This would also mean it could connect to a Camelback Rd route. I'm not sure how it would connect to Camelback otherwise in your plan. Unless you did this:

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/983/scottsdalelrtku8.jpg

Which I suppose would make sense. Put a stop up on Scottsdale Rd and Chaparral and it could be a hub for people if they need to switch to go West or South. Then Northbound to the Airpark/Kierland in the future, and beyond to Scottsdale101, and onward and upward to CityNorth/Desert Ridge. But thats WAY in the future.

[HX_Guy]

I'm not too familiar with the street, but where it heads east there off Scottsdale Rd toward the hospital...why not go west istead and up by the waterfront then west on Camelback Rd? Seems like a more direct path then the funkiness that's going on at Chaparral and Scottsdale Rd.

Also, aren't they planning on running light rail down Indian School to the AZ-51 and then north to the PV Mall area? Wouldn't it make sense the then continue running it down Indian School to Scottsdale Rd? It wouldn't go by the Biltmore area but it doesn't sound like there would be much support for that anyway...or is the opposition east of Biltmore? What about east along Camelback to 24th St, then south to Indian School, then east from there?

[HooverDam]

Also, aren't they planning on running light rail down Indian School to the AZ-51 and then north to the PV Mall area? Wouldn't it make sense the then continue running it down Indian School to Scottsdale Rd? It wouldn't go by the Biltmore area but it doesn't sound like there would be much support for that anyway...or is the opposition east of Biltmore? What about east along Camelback to 24th St, then south to Indian School, then east from there?

Well I personally think that whole SR51 plan is beyond retarded (east on Camelback the North on 7th to Tbird or to Cave Creek to Cactus then East is my preference). Im totally oppose to LRT on freeways, seems to be a total waste to me. I don't think Ive heard anything about running it on Indian School to the 51, I think thats still well under study. It could be ISR or Camelback I imagine.

Any opposition to LRT I imagine would be east of the Biltmore area. I highly doubt the people in the office and midrise condos would be too opposed to LRT. Especially owners of eateries and nightlife type spots. Like Andrew said, any opposition would probably come more between 44th to 64th, but theres no much of a need for stations in there.

Running it down ISR the whole way seems a waste to me. A lot of east ISR runs parallel to a canal, and thus there's zero chance for TOD and there's less easy access because of that. Camelback already has a nice built up area in the Biltmore, I think it needs to be connected.

I'm not too familiar with the street, but where it heads east there off Scottsdale Rd toward the hospital...why not go west istead and up by the waterfront then west on Camelback Rd? Seems like a more direct path then the funkiness that's going on at Chaparral and Scottsdale Rd.

I guess you're right I'm not sure what my thinking was there other than it running near Camelview/those condos. But either way the stop would be equidistant.

[Azndragon837]

I'm not too familiar with the street, but where it heads east there off Scottsdale Rd toward the hospital...why not go west instead and up by the waterfront then west on Camelback Rd? Seems like a more direct path then the funkiness that's going on at Chaparral and Scottsdale Rd.

That's another option the train can take (to go up the Goldwater Route). Granted, it will be farther from all the points of interest along Drinkwater, but by only a mere half-mile. The Scottsdale Trolley can be totally utilized to connect to the rest of Downtown. I like your idea.

So the train can branch-off from the Priest/Washington Station, up Galvin Parkway, left on McDowell, then North on Scottsdale Road. I made a crappy map, but you get the idea. The red line is the current line, and the blue shows the potential branch line. The purple boxes are the potential stations (other than the existing ones on Priest/Washington & Center/Washington). I placed the Phoenix Zoo/Desert Botanical Gardens Station in the middle, since it would be a waste to build a station for the zoo and the gardens.

The station at Van Buren can serve the Phoenix Municipal Stadium and several office buildings just to the south. I placed a station on 68th Street to serve the surrounding neighborhoods, and placed the SkySong Station just north of McDowell after the turn.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd127/asuazn837/Skyscraper%20Page/Tempe-ScottsdaleRoute.jpg

Your idea to branch the line onto Goldwater Blvd. makes sense, but I still think the Drinkwater route is a more viable option since it serves more points-of-interests.

Taking your idea into account, your route (minus the Camelback Road one) would look like this:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd127/asuazn837/Skyscraper%20Page/DowntownScottsdale.jpg

The blue is the potential line, the red are the potential stations, and the green is the current Scottsdale Trolley route that serves all of Downtown.

-Andrew

[Azndragon837]

Here is the option I was thinking about through Downtown Scottsdale:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd127/asuazn837/Skyscraper%20Page/DowntownScottsdale1.jpg

The stations would be placed at:

1. Osborn (to serve the Stadium, Hospital & Old Town)
2. Indian School Road (to serve City Hall, Civic Center Mall, Downtown, and the office buildings, apartments and condos nearby)
3. Stetson Drive/Scottsdale Road (to serve Downtown, the Waterfront, Southbridge, the Entertainment District, and the Galleria)
4. Scottsdale Fashion Square just north of Camelback (to serve Scottsdale Fashion Square, Optima, W Hotel, Safari Drive and a possible Transit Center and Park-and-Ride at the mall).

-Andrew

[Azndragon837]

Damn, this is fun, but I need to go to bed. Night!!!

-Andrew

[glynnjamin]

Regarding Camelback Corridor:
I think there are serious problems with running the line down Camelback; at least past 24th St. The bridge that was built to allow for the pedestrian underpass of Cmlbk was surely not designed to support LRT so I don't think it could go by there. Once you get past 24th, there is a problem with the Arcadia and PV people. I don't see Cmlbk every being a viable option but, at the same time, the stretch between Central and 24th st REALLY needs something to connect them. Either some sort of people mover/shuttle or you run the LRT over on Cmlbk to 24th and then run it south to Indian School. I think Indian School is a good option east of SR-51. That is an area with a lot of decent local shops and some good stores with a lot of density behind them. The neighborhood is significantly poorer than the one that borders Cmlbk so the opposition would not be great. Once you get to Scottsdale Rd, that's a different story.

Scottsdale Rd:
Scottsdale Rd is neither big enough nor sustainable enough to endure LRT construction in the southern corridor. That area has suffered greatly with most of the people moving north into old town, fashion square, and Kierland to do their shopping. South Scottsdale Rd is strip clubs and car dealers - it looks more like Van Buren. I think the stretch between McDowell and Fashion Square could be handled with a cable car down the center lane. A somewhat fixed system that resembles trolleys in SF and that has cars in a fixed position on the line at all times. Essentially one rail is required down the middle with the exception of two or three crossover switches for when the cars meet up. I think what the people of Old Town (and Scottsdale) want is to not feel like they are in the 21st Century and Trolleys are the thing that will make them happy.

Curry Extention/Town Lake
Running the LRT down Curry was the stance I took once before on this issue. The biggest problem with running LRT from Tempe into Scottsdale is that the 202 and the lake are in the way, both causing massive headaches. To me, running the LRT down Curry to Scottsdale Rd makes the most sense ONLY if Scottsdale is willing to let LRT run UP Scottsdale Rd.

If Scottsdale says no:
Let them die. Run LRT (at least) to 20th St and run it up along the 51. As much as I despise the LRT+I10 concept, the 51 is a different beast because of the mountain preserve. The using the freeway (if only from Glendale to Shea) disrupts the smallest amount of the preserve and gets people across a natural barrier in much the same was as the Tempe Town Lake LRT bridge. I think people would really enjoy getting to ride through the mountain.

[glynnjamin]

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_i6C1jXh3BV4/SWODxCKK8tI/AAAAAAAAF2E/m-34vM2ABTQ/s512/LRT%20map.JPG

This shows the starter line in blue

In red is:
(to the south) The Curry Extension to Scottsdale Rd.
(in the middle) from Central, down Camelback to 24th St, south on 24th St to Indian School, down Indian School to Scottsdale Rd.
(to the north) extension from 20th St and Camelback north to Glendale/Lincoln where the LRT jumps on the freeway until 32nd St & Shea where it follows 32nd St to Cactus, then east on Cactus to PV Mall.

This is, essentially, another 20 miles of track and it won't even touch the Aves.

[Vicelord John]

I think that may work,but you would then have three lines running down Central. That would get congested. All lines need to go into the city to avoid people having to make annoying transfers.

Running a train from downtown down Washington/Curry/Scottsdale to Goldwater/Camelback makes the most sense. Though running it to old town really doesn't make that much sense. It isn't exactly a major to/from destination from the city. Mostly it is from the resorts.

Another line running on Central/Camelback/7th street to Sunnyslope would also make sense. I'm not sure why anyone thinks the train needs to run through Biltmore, one of the most affluent neighborhoods in the state.

[glynnjamin]

Well, I think the general thinking is more for the high density areas around Biltmore. The towers that surround 20th-24th Streets and Camelback make for both high density living and working environments. Add to that the shopping at Colonade (middle-class) and I think you have a decent argument for the Biltmore area.

[combusean]

I would be way happy with, and in fact be hard pressed to accept anything less than cut and cover light rail on Camelback from 32nd St to 64th, with underground stations at 44th St and 52nd.

Burying the power lines along Camelback that are already there will have less of an impact in the end and sell the NIMBYs. By being separate from grade, the train would haul ass between Uptown Phoenix and downtown Scottsdale, and the extra cost would be worth it.

In Scottsdale, the dip on the east side of the couplet precludes LRT unless somebody's gonna give that up. the west side of the couplet is flat, wide, and level.

Similarly, there's probably some capacity for a modern streetcar that could handle the grade along Galvin Parkway connecting the Zoo and Downtown Scottsdale, but I think the impact from the caternaries are too much for the park setting. Cable cars anyone?

A touristy streetcar line along Galvin Parkway connecting to downtown Scottsdale would augment a faster trunk LRT route with its origins along Curry--no reason one can't do both here :)

[combusean]

As an aside... does anyone know of a good shop selling used street bikes?

Some $100 wonder I could throw on the train and be done with would be super cool in helping me take advantage of the new scale of the city.

[PHX31]

/\Craigslist would be a good bet, probably.

[glynnjamin]

^^Hoodride is usually more expensive than that but it's worth a look.

[Vicelord John]

FWIW, Derek, who owns Hoodride is a scam artist and has been uncovered plenty of times on Aircooled VW sites. I wouldn't buy anything from that pot-head jack ass.

Hit up Craigslist.

[HX_Guy]

Im on the train now. They really need to do something about the lights, badly. More later...

[Vicelord John]

here is my plan.


http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=109846939210660720787.00045fd2d94fdfafccc9f&ll=33.484717,-112.003555&spn=0.435811,0.574036&z=11

[glynnjamin]

FWIW, Derek, who owns Hoodride is a scam artist and has been uncovered plenty of times on Aircooled VW sites. I wouldn't buy anything from that pot-head jack ass.

Hit up Craigslist.

I second that...I was just giving an alternative. Some people like supporting scam artists...Look at WalMart

[glynnjamin]

John, my only real gripe with your plan is the lack of Westgate support. While I am all for Commuter Rail to glendale...GUS is not going to get a commuter train of people from downtown Glendale to Westgate before the game is over, much less in time for kickoff.

I'm just going to assume that you have Amtrak service returning to Phx in your ideal world, otherwise, rail service to Maricopa would be helpful because 1.5hrs down to Tucson, just to turn around and go back up to Maricopa seems sort of silly.

[andrewkfromaz]

As an aside... does anyone know of a good shop selling used street bikes?

Some $100 wonder I could throw on the train and be done with would be super cool in helping me take advantage of the new scale of the city.

I know your man. 1514 W. Hatcher in Sunnyslope there's a place called Try Me Bicycle. You won't need 100 bucks to buy a used bike that will be fairly lightweight and last you a while, if you don't care what it looks like.

[Vicelord John]

John, my only real gripe with your plan is the lack of Westgate support. While I am all for Commuter Rail to glendale...GUS is not going to get a commuter train of people from downtown Glendale to Westgate before the game is over, much less in time for kickoff.

I'm just going to assume that you have Amtrak service returning to Phx in your ideal world, otherwise, rail service to Maricopa would be helpful because 1.5hrs down to Tucson, just to turn around and go back up to Maricopa seems sort of silly.

well I thought about it and how many people really go to and from Maricopa? hardly enough to justify service there. I would think that people who moved to Maricopa made a conscious decision that they want to drive places, and they really are that type, I know a lot of people who live there and they wouldn't be caught dead on public transportation of any type. Not to mention there are NO TRACKS from Phoenix to Maricopa. You would have to build new ones.

For Westgate, you run into the same problem, no tracks, and quite honestly, that is an extremely suburban area. You can't serve every area with light rail, at least not when you have all of the urban centers covered with either heavy rail stations or light rail terminal centers. Westgate, Desert Ridge, etc. are all going to have to be casualties in order to satisfy PV, Maryvale, Peoria, Glendale, Tempe, Downtwon, Biltmore, Ahwatukee, Mesa, Scottsdale, and all the population/commerce centers that lie within it.

[exit2lef]

If Scottsdale ever decides to allow light rail, I think every feasible measure should be taken to bring it straight up Rural Rd. rather than seeking an alternative routing via Curry or Galvin Parkway. Right now, I can think of so many people who commute from Chandler, Gilbert, or Ahtwatukee to jobs in North Scottsdale. If there were a north-south line up and down Scottsdale Road, it would provide a single seat ride from various park-and-rides up to the Airpark. Without that, a transfer in Downtown Tempe or along Washington Street would be necessary,and that might deter many riders. I realize there are engineering challenges with bringing rail over the Salt River @ Rural, but the benefits of doing so are worth the investment.

[phxatty]

The current leadership in Scottsdale would never allow light-rail. They have objected to even the notion of a study. The Chamber has tried to get the City to look at it, but were shot down.

IF light-rail comes to Scottsdale, it will be at least another decade or so, and by then, there will likely be several other extension already in the works and funded. Scottsdale is missing the train on this, but they have this crazy idea that light-rail will take away from the town's unique character.:koko:

[HooverDam]

Let them die. Run LRT (at least) to 20th St and run it up along the 51. As much as I despise the LRT+I10 concept, the 51 is a different beast because of the mountain preserve. The using the freeway (if only from Glendale to Shea) disrupts the smallest amount of the preserve and gets people across a natural barrier in much the same was as the Tempe Town Lake LRT bridge. I think people would really enjoy getting to ride through the mountain.

I don't understand why everyone is (understandably) upset about running LRT down the I-10 and losing out on huge chance to help Maryvale, but no one cares about bypassing Sunnyslope. A neighborhood in similar disarray, that probably has a lot more potential to develop into something awesome than Maryvale (due to its proximity to the Central city and gorgeous mountain views).

It seems to me that the line ought to run East on Camelback to wherever its going to go (Id hope all the way to Scottsdale). Then a leg should run North on 7th St. It could either go all the way up 7th to to T-bird, or turn up Cave Creek, then East on Cactus over to the mall. This means you've given much better access to the Uptwon neighborhoods, the North section of the 7th St corridor, you've completely given Sunnyslope a new lease on life, and you give access to the areas along Cactus Rd, which include a large park, some shopping centers that could densify, neighborhoods and a Christian Bible College.

[Vicelord John]

Hoover i mentioned tgat but but then realizr how close itd be to the existing line to metrocenyer

[glynnjamin]

Slope is already a mere 2 miles from the 19th/Dunlap stop...the biggest problem it faces is that it dead ends at the mountain. Staying on 19th (that would actually go up to a park & ride at 19th & 101 would make more sense. City of Phoenix leaders want to get this thing to the northern stretches of the city to get as many commuters off the road. Slope into downtown is a pretty easy drive...I do it every day.

[HX_Guy]

So the follow up to what I posted earlier while riding the train.

Today was the second time riding the train and the first time I paid.
I bought a full day pass...and went I went to grab the ticket, there were two tickets in there. I paid cash, $2.50 even, so it wasn't a mistake of pressing the button for two passes. I'm assuming someone bought one earlier and forgot to grab it? Either way, I was a bit confused about the validating deal. When I bought the pass, it asked if I want to also validate it...I said yes, so did that validate it? Was I good to go?

Another thought on the tickets...what do the 1 ride passes look like? How do they know if it's the first ride and you haven't gotten off yet or if you've been jumping on and off all day? Do the passes say east or west bound on them? Seems a bit weird and too much of an "honor" system.

The timing is still off and frankly it was kind of annoying. I waited about 15 minutes at 24th/Washington going westbound then waited about 20 minutes at 1st Ave/Van Buren going eastbound. A guy in an orange vest at 1st Ave/Van Buren asked me if I heard an announcement of when the train is supposed to arrive, and I hadn't...but he said it's supposed to give verbal announcements at each station of when the next train is due. Has anyone experienced this?

Speaking of announcements...on the westbound train, some of the automated announcements worked (No smoking or eating allowed. Thank you for riding Metro) but the station name it was approaching didn't, the driver had to say them verbally.
On the eastbound train, NON of the announcements worked. The driver would say the station names, but once you were already in the station, not prior to arriving to them like the automated system does.

Finally...as I mentioned earlier, they REALLY need to do something about the stop lights. Going eastbound from 1st/Van Buren to 24th/Jefferson, we caught literally every single light. The trip took 14 minutes.
Westbound we only stopped at one light.
I don't understand why the train operators don't have control of the lights...similar to police/ambulances, or something in the track that signals when a train is approaching to change the light. The whole syncing thing is dumb because the trains don't seem to be on time so it all gets screwed up.

As for ridership, I was on at around 11:30 and there were about 20 people in the car I was in going westbound. There were quite a few people in the downtown area, and going back eastbound the train was pretty full...everyone had a seat but just about every seat was full.

[Vicelord John]

19th and the 101 is a bit far for a light rail line dontcha think? Thatd be like an hour plus ride. Bad idea. I award you no points.

[HX_Guy]

That is a bit far. Bell Rd would be nice, though that's just about as far, only 2 miles south of the 101.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

Today was the second time riding the train and the first time I paid.
I bought a full day pass...and went I went to grab the ticket, there were two tickets in there. I paid cash, $2.50 even, so it wasn't a mistake of pressing the button for two passes. I'm assuming someone bought one earlier and forgot to grab it? Either way, I was a bit confused about the validating deal. When I bought the pass, it asked if I want to also validate it...I said yes, so did that validate it? Was I good to go?
You were good to go. If you say NO then you receive the ticket but I believe that it does not print out the date and extra information. It is meant for people who want to purchase a ticket in advance. Then when they do want to use the train they validate it before boarding, I think you insert it into some special slot.

Another thought on the tickets...what do the 1 ride passes look like? How do they know if it's the first ride and you haven't gotten off yet or if you've been jumping on and off all day? Do the passes say east or west bound on them? Seems a bit weird and too much of an "honor" system.
I believe reading somewhere that the One-Ride-Passes are just a reciept showing that you paid for the ride. There is probably a time limit indicated on the receipt that shows when that ride 'expires' meaning they should not be on the train by that time.

The timing is still off and frankly it was kind of annoying. I waited about 15 minutes at 24th/Washington going westbound then waited about 20 minutes at 1st Ave/Van Buren going eastbound. A guy in an orange vest at 1st Ave/Van Buren asked me if I heard an announcement of when the train is supposed to arrive, and I hadn't...but he said it's supposed to give verbal announcements at each station of when the next train is due. Has anyone experienced this?
I have. It said "The next westbound train will arrive in approximately three minutes", or something along those lines. But I was taking the eastbound train and there was not an announcement for that train by the time it arrived.

[HooverDam]

I have two slight complaint about the system to add to HX_guys list (though I totally agree with him about the timing and the red lights, still way off):

1. The machines give you change back. Metal money. Really? In 2009 the best you can do is give me a bunch of shiny presidential $1 coins. Was this part of the Federal Aid for rail, some rule saying it has to use those stupid coins so the Fed has a reason to print them? I've used vending machines that spit dollar bills back out, this is just lame. On First Friday when my friend put in a 20 and heard a bunch of clanging meddle like she had just won at Buckys Casino we were all quite annoyed.

2. Tonight I rode from Tempe to downtown to catch a movie at the AZ Center. On my way home at about 8:30 I got on a train on Jefferson/3rd and has to immediately get off when the conductor told me his train was only going to 44th St. I got on the next train and the same thing happened! Some girls near me said that was the 3rd train they had tried. It was extra frustrating because the marquee on the front of the train still said Main/Sycamore. So I had to load my bike on and off twice before getting on the right train.

[andrewkfromaz]

I think the automated announcements vs. the operator verbally stating them is the operator's choice, rather than a bug. When I rode the bus, some drivers used the automated thing and some stated the stops, but the only constant was the driver i.e. I rode many different buses on the same route with the same drivers who had the same habits.

[Vicelord John]

At least im not the only one who got kicked off two trains that were going to the yard. gay.

[pbenjamin]

You were good to go. If you say NO then you receive the ticket but I believe that it does not print out the date and extra information. It is meant for people who want to purchase a ticket in advance. Then when they do want to use the train they validate it before boarding, I think you insert it into some special slot.

There doesn't seem to be any advantage in buying a ticket and not validating it. To validate, you again use the machine, this time choosing validate rather than purchase and it prompts you to put the ticket into the slot (same one that prints receipts etc.) It then prints the date on your ticket, spits it back out and issues yet another receipt. The only difference, appearance-wise, in a validated vs. non-validated ticket is the date printed at the bottom. So if you buy an unvalidated ticket and validate it later you must use (and potentially wait in line for) a machine twice.

[HX_Guy]

Seems like an easy way to cheat the system. Buy a pass, don't validate it "by mistake"...if you get caught, show the unvalidated pass, say you didn't know, and validate it at that time. Until a fare inspector checks it, you would be able to use the same pass for days it seems.

[Sekkle]

^ I don't know how they will work things in Phx, but if that happened in Portland, the fare inspector would probably take your name and give you a warning the first time. Second time you'd be fined. So you could probably get away with it once. And you're right, you could theoretically ride until they find you without a validated ticket, then claim ignorance.

RE the dollar coins Hoover mentioned getting in change... I think that's pretty common. I thought it was a pain in the ass at first, but now it doesn't really bother me. I think the coins are easier to feed into the machine than bills. But yeah, $18 in change for a $20 or something like that would be a bit much in dollar coins.

[glynnjamin]

19th and the 101 is a bit far for a light rail line dontcha think? Thatd be like an hour plus ride. Bad idea. I award you no points.

It's a bit far for you and me but I think, ultimately, a LRT running down Bell is going to be needed. From 101 to 101. I know it seems far but you have to remember all of the things in between. I mean, it was a long ride for me to go from Manhattan to Coney Island but I still took the thing to watch the Cyclone games weekly. It took about an hour. You'd spend the first half standing and then, once you crossed into Brooklyn, you could nap.

In 100 years, we should really see LRT lines running in the places where interurban freeways should have been placed. Look at how we are already wanting to put a LRT down Northern instead of the freeway that was originally proposed for there. Ultimately, a major E-W LRT line running down Bell Rd is best for everyone. If they decide to run the LRT up the 101, they can continue it and connect it with Arrowhead. If Scottsdale Rd ever gets it, you can connect it there. Another major E-W line should run on Northern in the West Valley and maybe Indian School on the East side. These should all feed off the main line like a spine. They don't need to be single train runs either. You have a Blue Line that is Bell Rd and all it should do is stay on Bell Rd. Make people transfer at the main line.

Look at the Blue Line in DC. http://www.wmata.com/rail/maps/map.cfm

It provides a way for every other line in the city to connect to it; orange, red, green, and yellow. Turn our starter line into something like that. Ideally:
this (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=104497473367500745267.000446a22a8ac15c20845&ll=33.521361,-112.052307&spn=0.334306,0.727844&z=11)

[glynnjamin]

Today was the second time riding the train and the first time I paid.
I bought a full day pass...and went I went to grab the ticket, there were two tickets in there. I paid cash, $2.50 even, so it wasn't a mistake of pressing the button for two passes. I'm assuming someone bought one earlier and forgot to grab it? Either way, I was a bit confused about the validating deal. When I bought the pass, it asked if I want to also validate it...I said yes, so did that validate it? Was I good to go?

It prints a ticket and a receipt. I am surprised it prints a receipt for cash because I used my debt card and it printed out a "DEBIT CARD SALE" sheet with my card/auth/ref numbers, the amount, and transaction number. Interestingly enough, on 01/03/09, I was the 170th person to use that fare machine (or maybe any fare machine). It also states that I purchased a all day local full fare.

If you say "Yes, i would like to validate now" then your pass becomes active. I think you have two hours from the time you activate a One way ticket and, obviously, until the end of the day on an "all day" ticket.

The advantage of not validating is if you are buying them ahead of time either for someone or for some event. My brother in law bought us two 7-day passes for Xmas and, obviously, didn't validate them. We just keep them until we are ready to use it and we have a week off.


Another thought on the tickets...what do the 1 ride passes look like? How do they know if it's the first ride and you haven't gotten off yet or if you've been jumping on and off all day? Do the passes say east or west bound on them? Seems a bit weird and too much of an "honor" system.

The one way passes state both the location which you purchased the pass and the time you purchased it. I assume that if you get caught riding a train that is headed toward the station where you purchased the ticket then you will be busted. I think you have two hours to use your one-way ticket as well.


The timing is still off and frankly it was kind of annoying. I waited about 15 minutes at 24th/Washington going westbound then waited about 20 minutes at 1st Ave/Van Buren going eastbound. A guy in an orange vest at 1st Ave/Van Buren asked me if I heard an announcement of when the train is supposed to arrive, and I hadn't...but he said it's supposed to give verbal announcements at each station of when the next train is due. Has anyone experienced this?

The only place I have ever heard the voice from above is at Central Station, south/east bound. It was spot on though. I'm still annoyed that it says "First STREET and Van Buren" on the train voice. Give the Aves some love.


Finally...as I mentioned earlier, they REALLY need to do something about the stop lights. Going eastbound from 1st/Van Buren to 24th/Jefferson, we caught literally every single light. The trip took 14 minutes.
Westbound we only stopped at one light.


When we were in Baltimore a few years ago, we took the LRT from Camden Yards to Union Station. It was like 3 miles or something and was a nightmare. 20 minute wait, then the train sat at every light, and took another 20 minutes to get to the stop. THEN, there was supposed to be a shuttle train that ran from Union Station to the LRT stop (sort of like our future airport mover) and we waited for 15 minutes at the stop and saw no sign of the shuttle train. We just gave up and walked from that point. I prayed that PHX's system wouldn't turn out like that one. I'm starting to feel like it is though. The connector shuttles never show up, the lights are unbearable when the traffic has a green light and we have a cross bar, and the frequency of trains during the hours that you least want to sit at Central Station alone is outrageous.

On top of all of that, WHY DO NO ONE ENFORCE THE NO SMOKING RULE ON THE PLATFORMS. I have gotten into 5 separate arguments with smokers who always say "Where does it say it?" and, sure enough, there are no signs anywhere that say it. I know it is the rule. There is never anyone to complain to and no one to punish them. I know that I am a crabby non-smoker who gets pissed when people light up in public (public smoking ban, please) but there should be signs at every stop.

[HX_Guy]

It's unfortunate if they don't fix these timing/lights problem ASAP because it will definitely influence if people use the light rail again after trying it out once or twice.

I literally spent about 45 minute total yesterday waiting at 3 separate platforms for trains. The ride time from 1st Ave/Van Buren to 24th/Jefferson was 14 min. The trip the other way was about 10.

That's over an hour to go ~5 miles (roundtrip!). I could have done my downtown photography and been home (25 miles away) in the time I took me to just get into and out of downtown.

[Tfom]

It's unfortunate if they don't fix these timing/lights problem ASAP because it will definitely influence if people use the light rail again after trying it out once or twice.

I literally spent about 45 minute total yesterday waiting at 3 separate platforms for trains. The ride time from 1st Ave/Van Buren to 24th/Jefferson was 14 min. The trip the other way was about 10.

That's over an hour to go ~5 miles (roundtrip!). I could have done my downtown photography and been home (25 miles away) in the time I took me to just get into and out of downtown.

Who do we complain to?

On another note. Did anyone else notice they changed the speed limit to 65 on the 10 between the stacks? I wonder if this somehow has something to do with the speed cameras.

[HX_Guy]

Yea there was a news article on AZCentral about them changing the limit. I wish they would make it 65 on all freeways to stop all confusion about how fast you should be going...that, or add more speed limit signs, especially on the I-17 as I never know if it's 65 or 55.

[Vicelord John]

Heh... I get on 1
I-10 east at 7th street and thwn merge onto the 202E and its funny because the speed limit is 65 for two miles and then i get in the 202 and its down to 55 and there is always dps waiting to pull someone over. Deliberate speed trap anyone?

[Sonoran_Dweller]

Originally Valley Metro didn't have a schedule for METRO Light Rail. But I just found one on their website.

It is kind of hard to read the times. They look like this: 704:10a. I believe that shows the exact second. I don't know why they have to be that exact but what the hell. Also looking at the schedule the trains actually run well before 4:40AM and after 12:00AM. But they do not run the entire route.

Take a look for yourself:http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/lightrail_publications/METRO_Rail_Schedule_12-08.pdf

[Sekkle]

to the second??!?! They run a tight ship! That's good to see that the initial run from the storage facility to each end of the line will be an in-service train.

[combusean]

What a clusterfuck that schedule is. What is the point of timing it to the second?

I like how they basically first said that the last train leaves the end of the line at 11 and reaches the other end at midnight.

But this shows we get another hour. Maybe it's more frustrating that if I were in uptown Phoenix as opposed to downtown Tempe I could stay longer? It hardly seems consistent--if I were heading the other way from Tempe I could stay that extra hour to go to Mesa?

[HX_Guy]

Well, you don't really get another hour unless you only need to travel about 1/2 the route. For example, if you in DT Phoenix and need to get to DT Tempe, you better be on the train 11pm (out of 19th/Montebello station) or else you won't make it past 44th St/Washington.

Same with going westbound and getting from DT Tempe or from DT Phx to the end of the line (say you parked your car at 19th Ave), you have to catch the 10:55pm train because another one is not coming.

[combusean]

Yeah that's what I'm saying ... i live downtown ... if I were hanging out in Uptown and going east, I could stay an hour later and catch the last train than if I were hanging out in Tempe and going west.

But if I were hanging out in Tempe and going east, I could stay that hour later.

[HooverDam]

I believe tonight is the first big event (Suns home game) downtown since LRT started charging, I wonder if a lot of folks are taking the train to the game. I hope so, maybe one of our downtown residents can keep an eye out.

[pbenjamin]

I believe tonight is the first big event (Suns home game) downtown since LRT started charging, I wonder if a lot of folks are taking the train to the game. I hope so, maybe one of our downtown residents can keep an eye out.

Last Friday night's game, concurrent with First Friday, was the first.

[Vicelord John]

Ho-lee shit! There were more people getting on the eastbound yrain after the game than on opening day. FUCK!

[HooverDam]

Last Friday night's game, concurrent with First Friday, was the first.

Ah thats right, I had forgotten they played that night since I was at FF.

Ho-lee shit! There were more people getting on the eastbound yrain after the game than on opening day. FUCK!

Good to hear :D

And you all were so quick to dismiss elevated rail.

Huh?

[PhxPavilion]

And you all were so quick to dismiss elevated rail.

[glynnjamin]

^What? Since when did we start talking elevated rail?

[PhxPavilion]

Long ago I mentioned it would have been much better if Phoenix had gone with elevated monorail, no lights, much faster speeds and no interference with traffic were some of the biggest reasons. Now you're all complaining about those very things, as if it's surprising.

[HX_Guy]

It's surprising because the trains were supposed to by synced with the lights, and therefore not have to stop at the lights, and that isn't happening. If the system worked properly and as advertising, no one would be complaining.

[pbenjamin]

I was told by a Metro employee that an approaching train had the ability to keep a green light green but no ability to turn a red light green. I never heard it "advertised" that it would not get caught at some lights.

[Vicelord John]

I have not once gone through the monroe/1st light without stopping

[combusean]

Long ago I mentioned it would have been much better if Phoenix had gone with elevated monorail, no lights, much faster speeds and no interference with traffic were some of the biggest reasons. Now you're all complaining about those very things, as if it's surprising.

Monorail is different from an elevated rail. To my knowledge, there isn't a monorail today that exists as part of a comprehensive transit system outside of a small closed-loop circulator.

Most people here understand how much better an elevated heavy rail system would be but they also understand that we simply can't afford it.

[Vicelord John]

another option that I really like. Made this at work today.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=33.464671,-112.013855&spn=0.272087,0.700378&z=11&msid=109846939210660720787.00046002bf54bdd96b54a

[Jsmscaleros]

I like it except for the purple line; who would want to take a train from lame to lamer?

[exit2lef]

As suggested above, monorails are generally not suitable for urban transport. They're generally used only in theme parks, zoos, airports, etc. and other short-distance, closed-loop environments. One of the few attempts at using a monorail as the backbone of an urban transit system is in Las Vegas, and that system is generally viewed as a failure. A lot of people say "monorail," when they really mean a high-tech elevated train that most likely runs on two rails. There are a few examples along those lines, most notably Bangkok and Vancouver, but systems of that type are rare and extraordinarily expensive.

[Vicelord John]

I like it except for the purple line; who would want to take a train from lame to lamer?

all of the routes with the exception of brown line were deaigned to be ridden in and out of the city, not end to end. A prak and ride in chandler would be very positive and a train between glendale and downtown is just practical. I made them the same color to simplify things.

[exit2lef]

I was told by a Metro employee that an approaching train had the ability to keep a green light green but no ability to turn a red light green. I never heard it "advertised" that it would not get caught at some lights.

Agree. I always expected the trains would encounter fewer red lights than cars, but not that they would avoid red lights entirely. At least they don't back up behind one another and wait through multiple cycles to go through the lights -- unlike cars during peak hours at some intersections.

[Jsmscaleros]

One example of elevated heavy rail (outside a theme park) is the Yurikamome in Tokyo. The system connects Odaiba (man-made island network in Tokyo Bay with many large businesses and a massive convention center) to the other rail lines. It is, however, substantially more expensive for a ticket than the JR or subway lines.

http://japanese-trains.com/tarn/yurikamome.jpg

http://www.minato-ala.net/mag/photo/fuji_yurikamome.jpg

[Jsmscaleros]

all of the routes with the exception of brown line were deaigned to be ridden in and out of the city, not end to end. A prak and ride in chandler would be very positive and a train between glendale and downtown is just practical. I made them the same color to simplify things.

I know - only joking. Really, though, where's your line from Apache Junction to Gold Camp?

[kaneui]

Monorail is different from an elevated rail. To my knowledge, there isn't a monorail today that exists as part of a comprehensive transit system outside of a small closed-loop circulator.

Most people here understand how much better an elevated heavy rail system would be but they also understand that we simply can't afford it.

You got that right--Honolulu voters just approved a 20-mile "starter" mass transit line for O'ahu--an elevated heavy rail system that is projected to cost more than four times what Phoenix' system cost.

With a metro population of just over 900,000, I can't fathom how we're going to pay for it, particularly with tax revenues plummeting for the foreseeable future.

[HooverDam]

Well this is good news:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/01/08/20090108extratrains0108-ON.html
Light rail trains to run after Suns game Friday
by Glen Creno - Jan. 8, 2009 04:30 PM
The Arizona Republic
Metro light rail says it will have plenty of trains working late Friday to handle Phoenix Suns fans who want to take the train to the game.

The National Basketball Association game against Dallas starts at 8:30 p.m. Metro light-rail's last trains leave both ends of the line at 11 p.m. But Metro says there will be trains waiting for fans at its downtown Phoenix station that serves Washington and Jefferson streets at Third Street near US Airways Center.

Metro says one of its goals is to have plenty of trains for big events. That could be an Arizona Diamondbacks game, a football game at Arizona State University, an event at the Phoenix Convention Center - anything that draws a big crowd at a venue near the rail line.

"Accommodating special events is a huge point of our operations plan," Metro spokeswoman Hillary Foose said.

She said the extra-train plan covers college and professional sports near the Metro line, big-draw entertainment events, and arts and cultural festivals, typically events that attract 10,000 or more people. Metro makes the decision to add trains based on attendance estimates from the venues.

The $1.4 billion Metro line opened Dec. 27. The 20-mile system connects Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa and runs near some of the region's biggest people attractors. Foose said Metro has bulked up with extra trains twice since it opened, both times for Suns games.

[PhxPavilion]

It's surprising because the trains were supposed to by synced with the lights, and therefore not have to stop at the lights, and that isn't happening. If the system worked properly and as advertising, no one would be complaining.

Where did you hear this? I never witnessed any advertisement or otherwise that said so. I do remember awhile ago someone on this forum mentioning that the lights were supposed to change for the trains but I told him then that wasn't happening. As pbenjamin said, they remain green for a longer period of time if they detect a train but they do not change the light once it is red; if they did it would create havok with traffic.

Monorail is different from an elevated rail. To my knowledge, there isn't a monorail today that exists as part of a comprehensive transit system outside of a small closed-loop circulator.

Most people here understand how much better an elevated heavy rail system would be but they also understand that we simply can't afford it.

Indeed but they are both elevated. I merely think monorail is the better of the two since they are smaller and lighter trains as well as even quieter and more comfortable. As far as not many existing, that's true, but that does not mean we can't be among the first. It is costlier but it also has many advantages; we could have been able to afford it if we had built it in smaller sections over a longer period of time. There are a number of places that use both types already, whether short specialty lines or long transportation lines. Dubai is in the process of building a significant 47 mile heavy rail, the majority of which is elevated. Japan has a maglev.

As suggested above, monorails are generally not suitable for urban transport. They're generally used only in theme parks, zoos, airports, etc. and other short-distance, closed-loop environments.

One of the few attempts at using a monorail as the backbone of an urban transit system is in Las Vegas, and that system is generally viewed as a failure. A lot of people say "monorail," when they really mean a high-tech elevated train that most likely runs on two rails. There are a few examples along those lines, most notably Bangkok and Vancouver, but systems of that type are rare and extraordinarily expensive.

Generally used for specialty cases yes, not suitable for urban transport no, there is no reason they can't be.

Vegas is an example of bad planning and design. The tracks there do not connect and are, in fact, seperated lines built specifically for certain casinos and sections of the strip. If it had been built as one large comprehensive route it would have been very successful.

[PHX31]

Where did you hear this? I never witnessed any advertisement or otherwise that said so. I do remember awhile ago someone on this forum mentioning that the lights were supposed to change for the trains but I told him then that wasn't happening. As pbenjamin said, they remain green for a longer period of time if they detect a train but they do not change the light once it is red; if they did it would create havok with traffic.


They may not change a light once they are red in a romantic sense (ie, they come to the light and magically they change it to green), or in an emergency vehicle pre-emption sense, but they do recall the signal and "minimize the green time of the cross street" if you will. It's my understanding that the trains (assuming all systems and detections finally become online, or they iron out the bugs) have precedence, and if the signal controller dectects a train coming it may switch the green time of the cross street to some set "maximum remaining green time", even if the cross street doesn't reach it's minimum green time for a normal traffic signal cycle.

Point is, if a train comes to a signal which is red for the train, it will make the cross street turn yellow then red much sooner than if the train never showed up, but it doesn't instantly turn it green for the train, hence sometimes you see the trains "wait at a red light"... but they really never wait at a red light as long as one of us in our cars would wait at a red light.

And I have seen a cross street's traffic become "backed up" or congested due to a train minimizing their green time and not allowing any/enough cars through on the cross street (wreaking havoc).

I really think we are being very critical of the systems... it's only been about two weeks of real world service. I think it's only fair they have ample time to work out the bugs.

[exit2lef]

Generally used for specialty cases yes, not suitable for urban transport no, there is no reason they can't be.

Vegas is an example of bad planning and design. The tracks there do not connect and are, in fact, seperated lines built specifically for certain casinos and sections of the strip. If it had been built as one large comprehensive route it would have been very successful.

I believe that the selection of monorail and the bad planning and design went hand in hand. A light rail system running down the Strip might not have quite the same high-tech feel as a monorail (or any elevated train), but it would be more visible and more accessible, most likely resulting in higher ridership.

This page does a better job than anything I've seen of differentiating between monorails and other types of elevated trains. I don't agree with its pro-monorail point of view, but it is quite helpful:

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/WhatIs.html

[glynnjamin]

another option that I really like. Made this at work today.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=33.464671,-112.013855&spn=0.272087,0.700378&z=11&msid=109846939210660720787.00046002bf54bdd96b54a

Looks good but I don't like the Bell Rd Extension down the freeway... I'm still a bit concerned about crossing over the freeway so many times. I just think that the line should run up 19th to Bell. Maybe that is because I work at 19th Ave & Tbird and I want to go the whole way via rail but I also think that 19th Ave is surrounded by a strong public transit population (Route 19 is packed) and the area provides some decent options for navigating around mountains and the canals.

[glynnjamin]

So with monorail and elevated rail we would have gotten:
-no stopping at lights
-no traffic accidents
ok, so that's nice

we also would have gotten:
-giant platforms to get people up to the rail that would have required elevators, escalators, and stairs.
-pillars down the middle of the streets or on the sides of the streets creating a hazard for drivers
-much more dangerous situations in the event of a crash/derailment due to the height
-a giant train and track that block people's views throughout town
-greater vibration in nearby buildings do to the dispersal over a wider, non-grounded area

All of that, PLUS, greater costs. No thanks. Phoenicians can barely be bothered to walk one flight of stairs, I have trouble believing that they will be excited about doing that every day.

As far as the LRT not being "advertised" as having light priority, I have trouble understanding how they have a 70 minute end-to-end time estimate if they have to sit at lights. I was told by multiple people who work for Metro that it would have priority and I expect it. Even if it didn't have priority advertised, I would expect it. Rail transit makes no sense if it has to sit in the same traffic as the bus. And as far as creating traffic nightmares, I don't care. That's why I'm on the rail. They should not appease the drivers and discourage the riders. That makes no sense.

[HX_Guy]

What 70 minutes? It was published long ago that the whole route was to take 58 minutes! I've been hearing it takes about 90 minutes from people, which is crazy.

[Vicelord John]

I find it funny that now people are calling it a 70 minute trip, when initially Metro said it would be 50, then they went up to 60, and now it's at 70?

HA

As for the cost of elevated rail, it would be roughly 2x's the cost, and underground rail would be 10x's the cost. So the people that oppose the rail altogether (no vision, unable to see anything that doesn't affect them directly) would have even more ammo at those kinds of costs. Think about it, 13 BILLION for a 20 mile train? I even would have shot that shit down.

[HooverDam]

What 70 minutes? It was published long ago that the whole route was to take 58 minutes! I've been hearing it takes about 90 minutes from people, which is crazy.

It too me just under 90 to go from Tempe to Christown, its going much slower than advertised so far unfortunately.

[pbenjamin]

The timetable has it pegged at 70. Although I have gone the route in its entirety, I haven't had the occasion (nor can I think of why I would) to ride the whole thing in one sitting. The Mesa end of it was a definite non-destination.

Now that I think about it, I have not yet gone between Campbell and Indian School going towards downtown. The one time that we went to Christown, on the way back, we got off at Campbell intending to get lunch at Pane Bianco, only to find out that it was closed on Mondays. We walked to Indian School to reboard.

[Vicelord John]

18 minutes for me to get to Mill

26 minutes for me to get to camelback

AT VERY LEAST the DT portion should have been above/below grade.

[HX_Guy]

The timetable has it pegged at 70.

Maybe now it has it pegged at that, but like I said, it was originally 58 minutes which would have been great.

[glynnjamin]

Ya, I remember that 1 hour was the original posted time...but you know, stuff changes. I can understand that it takes longer than they thought for ppl to get on and off so that adds time. I can also understand that you have to drive 15mph through a crossing guard area. I get it. But 70 is what is posted on the Metro site and that's what I expect. Otherwise, change it.

I'll agree that it would have been nice to see it elevated in downtown. That would have added to the city feel. But really, where would you elevate and de-elevate the rail? 24th St & I-10? Still, too expensive. I'm happy with what we have, I just want it to work right. I spend all day fixing stupid problems, it seems like Metro should be able to fix these.

[exit2lef]

Maybe now it has it pegged at that, but like I said, it was originally 58 minutes which would have been great.

In terms of consumer psychology, there's great benefit to being able to say the entire trip takes less than an hour (even if only two minutes less). It's the same principle that leads stores to price items at $1.99 instead of $2. Of course, once the extensions to Dunlap and into Downtown Mesa are built, the end-to-end travel time would go over one hour anyway, so when METRO gets the travel time down as much as it can, it should post revised and more accurate numbers on the Web site.

[Vicelord John]

As drunk as i am, i am pretty sure that actually was a train i just saw go by at 1:20am and not a figment of my imagination. It had people on it too...

[PhxPavilion]

So with monorail and elevated rail we would have gotten:
-no stopping at lights
-no traffic accidents
ok, so that's nice

we also would have gotten:
-giant platforms to get people up to the rail that would have required elevators, escalators, and stairs.
-pillars down the middle of the streets or on the sides of the streets creating a hazard for drivers
-much more dangerous situations in the event of a crash/derailment due to the height
-a giant train and track that block people's views throughout town
-greater vibration in nearby buildings do to the dispersal over a wider, non-grounded area

All of that, PLUS, greater costs. No thanks. Phoenicians can barely be bothered to walk one flight of stairs, I have trouble believing that they will be excited about doing that every day.

:rolleyes:

No stopping at all at any time except at stations, 60 mph travel speed, one end of the track to the other in 30 minutes and vehicles would have had many more places to turn left along with another lane available at street level. No traffic accidents mean no delays.

Your negatives are ridiculous. Stairs, oh I forgot how lazy people are. Giant platforms? They're elevated in the air, not taking up any space on the ground, who cares, they don't have to be any bigger than the stations we have now either. Pillars are a hazard for drivers? As opposed to the concrete separators we have now and the stations on the ground? Do people generally run into the light poles because they're next to the road? Derailment? From what? The LRT is much more susceptible to that than any elevated train. Monorail run very smooth, there is little to no vibration. Maglev makes no noise at all.

It would have cost about twice as much, not a huge deal if you built a 10 mile starter track and then expanded it year over year from there.

[bwonger06]

As drunk as i am, i am pretty sure that actually was a train i just saw go by at 1:20am and not a figment of my imagination. It had people on it too...

Probably Suns game. I am guessing it ended around 11 so the train extended its hours a little to meet the crowd coming out. I wonder if it waited for the people who went to get a bite after the game too, and if that is the case, it makes a lot more sensible to take the rail to games because you can actually do things afterwards (drinks, food, hitting on the homeless) and still have a ride back.

[Vicelord John]

well thats the thing the game got over about 11 and 2.5 hours later they were still running.... hmmmm

[electricron]

I'll agree that elevated rail lines costs are usually twice grade level rail lines. Phoenix could have built elevated lines through downtown. Here's the good news, they still can in the future.

When building new transit lines, it's better to get one in hand reaching out as far as possible than build shorter, grade separated lines that go nowhere. I also believe it's far easier to get voters support for more after the initial line has been in service a while.

Examples:
LA's subway line through downtown is criticized by many because it doesn't go far enough. Few commute long distances on it because it doesn't go far. Would LA had been better off building cheaper light rail initially, followed by building the subway through downtown later?

People will argue over both sides of this forever.

[Jsmscaleros]

This was fun. Same time next year -

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/10/20090110lightrailpants0111.html

I think my favorite quote of the day was: "Are you all doing this because of the economy?"

[glynnjamin]

:rolleyes:

No stopping at all at any time except at stations, 60 mph travel speed, one end of the track to the other in 30 minutes and vehicles would have had many more places to turn left along with another lane available at street level. No traffic accidents mean no delays.

Your negatives are ridiculous. Stairs, oh I forgot how lazy people are. Giant platforms? They're elevated in the air, not taking up any space on the ground, who cares, they don't have to be any bigger than the stations we have now either. Pillars are a hazard for drivers? As opposed to the concrete separators we have now and the stations on the ground? Do people generally run into the light poles because they're next to the road? Derailment? From what? The LRT is much more susceptible to that than any elevated train. Monorail run very smooth, there is little to no vibration. Maglev makes no noise at all.

It would have cost about twice as much, not a huge deal if you built a 10 mile starter track and then expanded it year over year from there.

Phx you must have never lived somewhere with elevated rail. It is not the be-all end-all, trust me. While I realize the Seattle monorail is more a ride than it is a form of transportation, it is (rather WAS...thanks NBA) used to move fans from the office area of downtown Seattle to the Key Arena. Stupid thing was always out of service. Flat tires on a monorail! On top of that, you had to walk through a mall and get to the top floor in order to board it. Not convenient. Sort of like the Las Vegas monorail that makes you walk through 50000sqft of casino before you can find the 2 escalators and the bridge that get you to where you can board.

There are always delays on rail transit. The Chicago L was late more times than I could have imagined when I lived with my god parents. Here is a nice little recap of all of the major accidents they've had on the line. http://www.chicago-l.org/mishaps/misc2.html

Every single elevated rail I've been on creates massive vibrations. It is just basic physics. When the object is elevated from the base, the vibrations are going to be greater. Ever sit on the platform at Harrison stop in Chicago? It's like an 8.3 on the Richter scale. Try living next to one.

On top of that, elevators and escalators pose all sorts of problems and create barriers to ridership in a city new to public transit. While there are benefits (reduced stroller riders & the ability to enforce tickets with turnstiles) you get dark, seedy areas that breed crime. Also, unlike with light rail where the businesses along the line benefit and get better, I have yet to see an area where the stores right along the line (and especially under the line) don't turn into blighted areas. They get no exposure because riders can't see them. They get no sunlight so pedestrians don't go there. They are loud and intrusive.

Sure, maglev would solve everything, except it has never been done on a small scale and, as far as I know, has never been elevated. I don't think the citizens of Phoenix want to fund a $100B science project. They already like to scream "We could have had 5600 buses for what we got light rail for!"

[Vicelord John]

wait, so elevated rail breeds crime? Crime only happens in high places? I don't get it... Why doesn't crime like street level platforms? Can't everyone just get along?

One plus to elevated platforms is the cripples cant get on the train with ther electric wheelchairs and fuckin run over everyone. There should be a rule that if you are crippled, or have a bike, you can only ride on downtimes. I'm glad that Chicago doesn't allow bikes or big motor chairs on the trains it would be a mess and a half.

I would rather have underground rail, obviously, as it has that whole secretive non-existent aspect to it. I like riding in a dark tube, wait what? I mean that in a non sexual way. There is just something cool about riding around underground in a train... the best one was the train from Poughkeepsie to the city that goes underground in Bronx and all of a sudden you're in this big ass underground terminal and all these heavy trains are there. It's kind of surreal.

[jvbahn]

The problem I'm told with Phoenix is that other than the whole damn thing being a giant suburb is that the ground is calcified, making underground tunneling the equivalent of tunning through concrete. The benefits of doing such a thing at a time when Phoenix is woefully underdeveloped(even the Central Corridor is low-density compared to any metropolis with heavy rail) is unrealistic. The fact remains that Phoenix has no money for such a program, can't support a program with the lack of people in the inner city, and the mindset of course requires about 2 millenia to warm up to a heavy rail above or underground.

An easier solution to pie-in-the-sky dreaming of Disneyland monorails is simply to connect the suburbs with the center with the exisiting rail lines which can be retrofitted. The lines along Grand Avenue could service the West Valley to downtown, continue on to Tempe, and then to Mesa.

Redeveloping the old Central Station to become a central meeting place between long-distance(Tucson/LA/San Diego), and local commuter trains should become a long-term project for Phoenix, one that would at least ensure it some standing when it becomes clear that trains will be needed once again for distribution and transportation.

[glynnjamin]

^We've discussed commuter rail. We know what it is for. We are talking about light rail vs alternatives. Everyone agrees that there are already heavy rail lines that go to populous places (Glendale, Surprise, Buckeye, Tucson, etc) that would be great to have commuter rails on. Yay.

As far as "Central Station" I'm going to assume you mean Union Station. Simply put, running heavy commuter rail to Central Station would be a disaster of epic proportion. Unless they ran them underground, like in NYC. The most logical use is to have a LRT that runs from Central Station to Union Station and then out to the Capital in the future. That way you move people from Heavy Rail to Light Rail. Union Station needs to be redeveloped anyways. I can't believe Gordon has no love for that building.

[mgmAZCO]

Why would he love Union Station? It's historic, has architectural character, and could be developed into something really cool. I think that qualifies it for automatic bulldozing in Phoenix. Maybe they could replace it with a vacant lot, or a sterile office building, or a parking structure...:(

[Jsmscaleros]

Why would he love Union Station? It's historic, has architectural character, and could be developed into something really cool. I think that qualifies it for automatic bulldozing in Phoenix. Maybe they could replace it with a vacant lot, or a sterile office building, or a parking structure...:(

Haha, I'm sorry, could you please re-phrase with more sarcasm?

You're right - preserving history is not our city's M.O., unfortunately.

[mgmAZCO]

I know...I know...the sarcasm was pretty thick there. I just get frustrated with the unique and historic structures that have been lost. Or that were torn down to make way for big projects that often never amounted to anything.

[HooverDam]

I know...I know...the sarcasm was pretty thick there. I just get frustrated with the unique and historic structures that have been lost. Or that were torn down to make way for big projects that often never amounted to anything.

Though you cant really blame Gordon for that, most of it happened long before he was around. In fact before he got into politics didn't he work to rehab some older buildings in Central Phoenix or did I just imagine hearing that?

EDIT: VVV Agreed 9000%