San Francisco T-Third and Central Subway

[CityKid]

I noticed that no one had posted anything about this and thought I would add it considering that Phase I looks be starting weekend service come January.

www.sfmuni.com:

During the first half of last century, streetcars traveled up and down "Three Street" shuttling riders between downtown and points along the Bayshore Corridor. As the primary mode of transportation into and out of this area, this streetcar line helped spur development of the Bayshore communities that exist today. Now, decades later, Muni, the City of San Francisco, and the San Francisco County Transportation Authority have launched the Third Street Light Rail Project to reestablish rail service along this corridor.

Muni, in partnership with the community, structured this project to:

improve service reliability and travel times
enhance transit connections
help generate economic opportunities and jobs for local residents and business owners.
Construction of the new light rail line is occurring in two phases (see map):

Phase 1 will extend Muni Metro light rail service south from its current terminal at Fourth and King Streets. The line will cross the Fourth Street Bridge and run along Third Street and Bayshore, ending at the Bayshore & Sunnydale Boulevards in Visitacion Valley. Tracks will be constructed primarily in the center of the street to improve safety and reliability and 18 stops will be provided. This phase of the light rail project is expected to open for service in 2007.

Phase 2 will extend light rail service north from King Street along Fourth Street, entering a new Central Subway near Bryant Street. It will then cross beneath Market Street and running under Geary and Stockton Streets to Stockton and Clay Streets. Underground subway stations will be located at Moscone Center, Market Street, Union Square and Clay Street in Chinatown. The SFMAT and the City are actively pursuing funding for the Central Subway.


http://www.sfmuni.com/cms/msc/const/images/060612-3rd-Map.gif

[BTinSF]

:previous: Interesting that the above map, the only one of the T line I could find at the Muni site, shows the service configuration after the Central subway is built which won't be for a long time. It has the existing N-Judah line as a separate line from the Third St. line which, rather than turning right along the Embarcadero as it will do until the subway is built, goes into the subway. But my understanding is that for the years until the subway is open, the T line will really be a continuation of the J-Church line (I think they'll change the signage at Embarcadero Station) and the N-Judah will continue to run but the end of that line will be at the calTrain Station as now. Correct or no?

[CityKid]

From www.sfmuni.com:


What service will be provided on the Third Street Corridor?
The Castro Shuttle will extend out the Embarcadero and south along Third Street and Bayshore Boulevard to Sunnydale Avenue. Along Third Street and Bayshore Boulevard it will be called the T-Third. The J-Church will serve the 4th Street CalTrain Station during peak periods. The N-Judah will terminate at the Embarcedero Station. In the future, development in the Mission Bay area will require the extension of the N-Judah down Third Street to a loop at 18th Street, to provide additional service in that area. Additional light rail vehicles have been acquired by Muni to serve the new corridor.


Here is an article from www.sfgate.com:

SAN FRANCISCO
Third Street seeing streetcars
Test runs for light-rail project begin at last
Rachel Gordon, Chronicle Staff Writer

Wednesday, July 26, 2006


The San Francisco Municipal Railway's Third Street light-rail project is more than a year behind schedule and $120 million over budget, but at last streetcars are rolling through the oft-neglected neighborhoods of Potrero Hill, Bayview, Hunters Point and Visitacion Valley -- only without any passengers yet.

The new Muni Metro route, officially known as the "T-Third,'' is in the testing stage. Muni officials hope to open the service on a limited, weekend-only basis in January. The official opening is set for April 7.

"That's going to be the date -- without fail,'' said Nathaniel Ford, executive director of the city's Municipal Transportation Agency, which runs Muni.

That's a bold statement for a Muni bureaucrat, especially given the history of the $667 million light-rail project -- one that's been hit with construction delays and skyrocketing costs. The start date has been pushed back more than once, first from the winter of 2005 then to the winter of 2006, and now to next spring.

Local sales-tax revenue set aside for transportation projects funded most of the project. The cost, already beyond the original estimate, could balloon even higher, officials warn.

Officials plan to board the first passengers on the three-day Martin Luther King Jr. Day holiday weekend -- Jan. 13, 14 and 15. The line will operate only on weekends until April 7.

That holiday weekend has symbolic significance. The 5.6-mile T-Third will run through neighborhoods with a large population of African Americans. The area is among the city's poorest, most polluted and most isolated from San Francisco's political and economic strongholds to the north.

"I think the Third Street line is far greater than the concrete and steel and track,'' Ford said. "It's about connectivity. It's about economic vitality. It's about creating an opportunity to open up some doors.''

The new light-rail extension runs between Bayshore Boulevard and Sunnydale Avenue in Visitacion Valley at the Daly City border, and 4th and Berry streets near the Giants ballpark in China Basin. At China Basin, the route is integrated into the existing Muni Metro operation -- transporting passengers through the Market Street tunnel to Castro Street.

The trains will move along a dedicated track-only lane that won't compete with cars and trucks. The trip from Visitacion Valley to China Basin is anticipated to take 31 minutes, about 10 minutes less than bus service. Third Street serves as the main artery.

The trains pass through the new Mission Bay development -- the emerging biosciences hub anchored by a UCSF campus -- and past the once-gritty Dog Patch section of Potrero Hill where factories and warehouses are making way for new housing, offices and hip cafes.

The trains will cross Islais Creek, a contaminated stream that pours into San Francisco Bay, and enter the crime-pocked Bayview-Hunters Point section. There, an ambitious development plan aims to revitalize the economically depressed neighborhood with thousands of homes and new businesses.

The route ends in Visitacion Valley, a racially diverse, blue-collar neighborhood.

Fran Martin, who chairs the Visitacion Valley Planning Alliance, said the project will help her neighborhood.

"We've always been over the hill and far away; now we'll be connected to the rest of the city. Psychologically, it means a lot for our neighborhood,'' she said.

Tommie Owens, a plumber's apprentice who lives in the Bayview, has similar hopes.

"It should bring more people to the community, new business, and if we're lucky, push all the negative things away,'' he said.

Owens stood on the corner of Third and Quesada streets in the heart of the Bayview and looked out at the changes connected to the light-rail project already in place along the revamped corridor: palm trees, public art, stylish street lights and a repaved road.

The changes, however, didn't come without fury and anguish, particularly among the merchants and restaurateurs who said the heavy construction outside their businesses drove away customers.

Willie Howard, who helps run Wendy & Daughters bakery and restaurant on Third Street, isn't optimistic that the new streetcar line will spur a neighborhood renaissance.

"I don't see how it's going to make a difference,'' he said, wearing a baseball cap that said, "I'm the Boss,'' and sitting on a worn plastic chair outside his business. "Just look down the street. Ain't no people here. And ain't no streetcar going to change that.''

Ella Henderson, a property manager who lives and works in the area, isn't so sure.

"The neighborhood is already changing, and the streetcar will help it along,'' she said, picking up a coffee at the Road House cafe on Third Street in Hunters Point.

San Francisco Supervisor Sophie Maxwell, who represents the neighborhoods, said the Third Street project has helped with beautification, but she's reluctant to put too much stock into what effect it will have on economic development.

"It's the housing that's going to bring people to the area more than the light rail,'' Maxwell said.

Still, she said, the T-Third will be a welcome service -- as long as the street cars don't cause too much noise and anger residents, as has happened in Noe Valley, the Inner Sunset and other neighborhoods in the city where the heavy trains run.

For now, Muni officials are scrambling to get the new line operating.

The next testing phase involves running streetcars at normal speed to identify problems related to the sway of the vehicles, track movement and signal timing, said Carter Rohan, Muni's new construction manager.

Eventually, plans call for extending the street car line north and into a central subway that would end in Chinatown.

When might that happen? Ford, the Muni boss who has been on the job just six months, smiled.

"Let's get through this first,'' he said.

[BTinSF]

^ So the T-Third will be an extention of the Castro Shuttle, not the J-Church. But in any case, you'll still be able to get on a train along Market St. direct to the end of the T-Third line without having to change trains AND you'll be able to go to the ballpark area without having to compete with 3rd St. riders (by using the J-Church).

[slock]

Does anyone know how many cars will run per train? Two? Three?

One symbolic thing about the current 15 Third is the packed articulated buses. Looks like more capacity is needed.

[J Church]

One.

[BTinSF]

^ My guess is that may vary with circumstances--more at rush hour etc--but it won't be 3. The Muni metro trains come in 2-car sets so it'll be either 2 or 4 most likely. But as the article says, there's the option of actually running a "local" train to Mission Bay (stopping at 18th St) which would take some of the pressure off the trains that go all the way to Sunnydale.

I just noticed J-Church says "one". I am certain ( ;) ) he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that means one articulated "car" which I'm counting as 2 cars.

[slock]

One?

Are they stopping the 15 Third in April when it goes into regular service or will there be overlap?

I'm worried that Mission Bay is becoming too auto-centric with parking garages and lots aplenty. And everyone is moving into the Old Navy building and the Sirna Therapeutics offices this month. I hope they don't all start driving like everyone at UCSF.

Nothing will get them out of their cars like a jam packed, one car T.

[CityKid]

From www.sfmuni.com:

What will happen to the 15-Third bus service along Geneva Ave, in Visitacion Valley and north of Market (Financial District/North Beach)? After the T-line begins service in April 2007, the 9X will extended from Mission and Geneva to City College along the 15’s current route. It will also be extended north of Market along the 15’s route to North Beach and Fisherman’s Wharf. It is planned to operate somewhat more frequently than the current 9X.


You can read the rest of the FAQs at http://www.sfmuni.com/cms/msc/const/3rdfaq.htm

[fflint]

I just noticed J-Church says "one". I am certain ( ;) ) he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that means one articulated "car" which I'm counting as 2 cars.
Why would you count one car as two cars?

[BTinSF]

Why would you count one car as two cars?

Because, as you know, they are about twice the size and capacity of a conventional streetcar and are structurally and functionally more like two cars linked. That fact, for example, made it necessary for Muni to allow boarding the rear "car" directly, even from streetlevel platforms (which is not allowed--even though many people do it--for other types of vehicles including articulated busses):

Is this train 2 cars or 4? You decide.
http://images.nycsubway.org/i33000/img_33412.jpg

[J Church]

So an artic bus, that would be two buses?

[slock]

I dunno BT I think one streetcar is one streetcar and two streetcars is two.

Can I do a little rapid fire questioning to anyone who knows the answers?

Do the Bredas have greater capacity than the current artic buses? Shouldn't that be an objective?

Are there too many stops between Dogpatch and Vis Valley? From the map it looks like they are too closely spaced.

Finally, why are they building the maintenance facility so late in the project? Why are they going to begin service if the maintenance and storage facility isn't completed until 3/2008?

Thanks.

[J Church]

Yes.

Yes.

It's Muni.

[slock]

Thank you.

Regarding the second question, I just don't understand.

Here they are facing a budget shortfall and they could have saved millions by not building too many platforms.

People will walk further for faster service.

Here's a cool pic:


http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g117/moses81/img_56683-1.jpg

[BTinSF]

So an artic bus, that would be two buses?

Why do we get into such pointless arguments and put-downs? The Breda streetcars, as I said, have a larger capacity than an articulated bus approximately equivalent to 2 steetcars or 2 NYC subway cars (which, since I thought the person who asked was from New York, would make the answer more meaningful to him). It was an effort not, perhaps, to be technically correct but to focus on why he asked--he was apparently concerned about the capacity of the system along Third St.--and it seemed that to say one car without further explanation as you did would misinform him in his frame of reference because one of these articulated Breda cars will caryy more passengers than one articulated bus as you acknowledge. Frankly, if I had thought you would answer him, I wouldn't have bothered, because I recognize your superior expertise concerning Muni.

[J Church]

The Breda streetcars, as I said, have a larger capacity than an articulated bus approximately equivalent to 2 steetcars or 2 NYC subway cars

A) Who's from New York?

B) Bredas aren't that big.

[J Church]

Oh, slock's in New York. Got it.

He's from here.

[slock]

"Public transportation is for jerks and lesbians" is the funniest thing I have read all day.

And it's 11:20p.

[fflint]

Because, as you know, they are about twice the size and capacity of a conventional streetcar and are structurally and functionally more like two cars linked. That fact, for example, made it necessary for Muni to allow boarding the rear "car" directly, even from streetlevel platforms (which is not allowed--even though many people do it--for other types of vehicles including articulated busses):

Is this train 2 cars or 4? You decide.
http://images.nycsubway.org/i33000/img_33412.jpg
How many cars are there on the consist on the left? The rules of language, logic and mathematics hold that one plus one must equal two. I see a car on the left, hitched up to a car on the right: that means there is one car plus one other car, for a sum total of two cars. That is a two-car train consist.

[WesTheAngelino]

Dear GOD! I didn't even notice there were trains in the pic at all! Look at all those powerlines!!!!!!!!!!!! In order to become a truly world class, well respected city like the bustling megalopolis of San Diego, SF must bury all those ugly wires!!!!!

Hey, with Citywach suspended, somebody had to say it ~_^

[fflint]

Citywatch is suspended? Sheesh, I take some final exams and the place goes to hell... ;)

[bmfarley]

Yep, those are 2 car trains. Just count the pantographs.

What is the status of the subway stations proposed in the extension to Chinatown? Will they be designed to accomodate 1, 2 or 3 car trains? That will tell us the eventual train lengths for the line to Visiticon Valley.

J Church... you said one earlier. Were you being serious?

IMO, the subway stations should accomodate 3-car trains. If they could be designed to be expanded, which I'd question how, that would be okay for a phased approach... I guess.

[J Church]

Central Subway platforms have been shortened from three- to two-car as a cost cutting maneuver. A move that has helped bring the price all the way back down to $1.2 billion.

Yes, initial service on the T-Third will be made up of one-car consists.

[CityKid]

Does anyone know how bad the current traffic is on the 15? I would have liked to have seen a street car put in on Geary first.

[BTinSF]

^^^The 15-Third busses I've ridden have been pretty crowded, but I think the decision to build the Third St. line before doing any improvement in the Geary Corridor was made under Willie Brown, taking into consideration where his politcal base lived and a feeling that the Bayview area had been neglected and cut off from the rest of the city for a long time and fairness required trying to reconnect them first.

Also, of course, is the factor of rapidly blooming Mission Bay which will add a lot of traffic to the line over what it has been and the line is useful to provide a direct all-rail transit connection between the Parnassus and Mission Bay campuses of UCSF.

[Chicago3rd]

Because, as you know, they are about twice the size and capacity of a conventional streetcar and are structurally and functionally more like two cars linked. That fact, for example, made it necessary for Muni to allow boarding the rear "car" directly, even from streetlevel platforms (which is not allowed--even though many people do it--for other types of vehicles including articulated busses):

Is this train 2 cars or 4? You decide.
http://images.nycsubway.org/i33000/img_33412.jpg

It is two cars. Just because it bends in the middle doesn't mean it is two cars.

[CityKid]

What are people's thoughts on the subway? I think it'd be kind of pointless for residents unless it was extended into the North Beach/Marina area.

[tech12]

I can't be the only one wondering...




http://www.sfmuni.com/cms/msc/const/images/060612-3rd-Map.gif



What the hell is little Hollywood?

[the94112]

Little Hollywood is a serious neighborhood, I have several friends who live in it, and I thought the same thing when they were like "Oh yeah, I live in Little Hollywood." It's a few blocks only though.

[vizvalleykid]

My dad said there used to be some hollywood celebrity living there so thats y they called it little hollywood. and the subway will benefit the residents because most of the people in Visitacion Valley take the 9X to chinatown and its hella crowded by creating a subway station in CHinatown it eases conjestion of many busses like the 9X or the 30 and 45.

[CityKid]

These photos can be found at www.sfgate.com and are part of the article posted earlier in the thread:


http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/07/26/ba_lightrail26025.jpg
A Muni streetcar travels along the Third Street tracks during testing of the new line. Weekend service is scheduled to begin in January. Chronicle photo by Penni Gladstone

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/07/26/ba_lightrail26074.jpg
Operator Melvin Clark checks the windshield wiper on his streetcar on Third Street. Chronicle photo by Penni Gladstone

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/07/26/ba_thirdlinegrf.jpg
Third Street Light-Rail Line -- Muni's new light-rail line is now being tested, and officials hope to begin service on weekends in January. Chronicle Graphic

In the last photo, you see changes made to the end of the line. Having the line end at the Bayshore Station will be a future extension due to a Caltrain/Muni faux pa.

[Frisco_Zig]

Viz Valley

Don't a lot of the folks take the 9x express straight to Chinatown which runs on the freeway? Or is that another express bus? My friend's mom takes this weekly to run errands in Chinatown.

I am guessing a lot of older people are going to continue to take the express bus

THis whole project is 100% political. As someone else posted a Geary lightrail would have been more useful as would a Kearny St alignment on the subway

The whole project is politcal payback as I understand it

[tuy]

If you get off at Gilman, you are less than a mile from Monster Park. Do they plan on running shuttles on game days?

[BTinSF]

THis whole project is 100% political. As someone else posted a Geary lightrail would have been more useful as would a Kearny St alignment on the subway

The whole project is politcal payback as I understand it

In part, I believe, it was conceived for two political reasons: (1) Willie Brown felt the city and its citizens owed Bayview and some of his supporters living there a better, faster link to downtown and the development it might bring; (2) the tearing down of the Embarcadero Freeway left Chinatown feeling isolated and the Central Subway (or phase 2 of the Third Street Rail project) was conceived as a way to bring more people to Chinatown.

[BTinSF]

If you get off at Gilman, you are less than a mile from Monster Park. Do they plan on running shuttles on game days?

You mean until they tear it down?

[BTinSF]

What are people's thoughts on the subway? I think it'd be kind of pointless for residents unless it was extended into the North Beach/Marina area.

I realize not many people here agree with me, but I think there's a serious lack of crosstown (north/south) Muni service and this route helps. I'll use it to go from SoMa to North Beach (even if I have to walk the last few blocks).

[tuy]

You mean until they tear it down?

Of course, but when does that happen?

[Wright Concept]

Just out of curiosity, why is the inagural service to only Weekends? Do they have enough LRV's to operate this line?

[CityKid]

From www.sfmuni.com:

http://www.sfmuni.com/cms/mms/routes/images/T3-NewService-Broch-map.gif

More info at http://www.sfmuni.com/cms/mms/routes/tthirdsvc.htm

[SSLL]

Good to see

[slock]

Are they going to switch the J Church line to double cars? It seems like they would need the capacity. And why not continue having the N go all the way to Caltrain?

[Justin10000]

Dear GOD! I didn't even notice there were trains in the pic at all! Look at all those powerlines!!!!!!!!!!!! In order to become a truly world class, well respected city like the bustling megalopolis of San Diego, SF must bury all those ugly wires!!!!!

Hey, with Citywach suspended, somebody had to say it ~_^

Dude.

Almost every city, world class or not, has powerlines everywhere.

And how can you hate overhead wires, and still like electric transit?

[Wright Concept]

Dude.

Almost every city, world class or not, has powerlines everywhere.

And how can you hate overhead wires, and still like electric transit?

His post was sarcasm directed towards a forumer whose constant complaint about LA and what's preventing it from "World Class status" are the view of Power Lines.

[Frisco_Zig]

Matt Smith on the central subway and the reality that it isn't about tranist but rather pork and politics

http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/2007-01-03/news/smith.html

[jamison]

Are they going to switch the J Church line to double cars? It seems like they would need the capacity. And why not continue having the N go all the way to Caltrain?

The N-Judah is being replaced because the ridership isn't high enough to require two-car trains, saving what I was told is $2 million a year. The N-Judah never seemed like the right choice to me because of how frequently it gets delayed on the surface.

The J-Church will keep running one-car trains which combined with the one-car trains on the T-Third Street means service will still be two cars every 8-9 minutes peak, but the one-car trains will come more frequently than the two-car trains come today.

The N-Judah might still be run to Caltrain for ballpark service.

[J Church]

Jamison, any idea how they're going to handle layover for Giants games?

[jamison]

Jamison, any idea how they're going to handle layover for Giants games?

I haven't heard anything aside from the N-Judah as a possibility.

[botoxic]

Here's a photo I snapped last weekend, just north of 16th Street:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q149/btgibson/SF%20Buildings%2012-30/S4010003.jpg

[ablarc]

Here's a photo I snapped last weekend, just north of 16th Street:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q149/btgibson/SF%20Buildings%2012-30/S4010003.jpg
Will the streetcar line generate buildings for it to serve?

[jamison]

Will the streetcar line generate buildings for it to serve?

What you're looking at is Mission Bay, which is being completely redeveloped.
You can see some kind of construction equipment in the parking lot on the left and what you don't see out of frame further to the left is the collection of 8-10 story buildings that make up the new UCSF Mission Bay campus. This whole area has been planned out to go along with the new rail line.

[jamison]

If you were on Muni Metro today you might have noticed the new signs on the trains in preperation for saturday's opening of the T-Third Street line.

For the trains using the printed roll signs, the colored circles for the line letter are now color coded to the map instead of either red or green. So for example the L-Taraval is now purple as it's shown on the map, instead of green which is the color of the M-Ocean View on the map. The destination sign for the Judah now reads a much more useful "Caltrain/Ball Park" instead of neglecting the ball park for either "CalTrain" or "Mission Bay". For the improvements there are a couple of downsides. At the front and rear ends, the line name beneath the circled letter is written in a smaller and lighter wieght font. I could barely read "Judah" until the trains was really close. And secondly, "Caltrain/Ball Park" is all on one line which means it has to be a lot smaller than if they had just put it on two lines with Caltrain on top and Ball Park below.

The electronic signs are an even better improvement over before. The electronic signs used to cycle between three different lines.

"-J- Church"
"Destination"
"Balboa Park"

This meant for a full third of the time the sign wasn't saying anything useful. "Destination" doesn't let you tell any of the five lines apart, and likewise "Balboa Park" without the line letter is not helpful either since three of the lines go there via different routes. And on top of that they were centered, so each line started in a different spot.

Destination has been done away with entirely and on the ends of the trains the lines name is on the top line and the destination right below it on the second so they are both shown at the same time. On the sides, they are now left aligned and alternate only between the name and destination, and the letter is shown on both, so you can always read which line the train is on. It looks like this:

"-J- Church"
"-J- Balboa Park"

Yay for the folks at Muni who made the signs much more useful, I thank you.

[vizvalleykid]

with the T opening up on saturday i can enjoy free and uncrowded service to downtown in a smooth way! i think ill check it out on saturday, head downtown just for the hell of it!

[Lee_Haber8]

I'm sorry I'm new to public transit in San Francisco - is the Muni Metro rapid transit? That is does it have 1) Signal Priority and 2) does it run on a dedicated corridor? If it has neither of these, what really makes it better than a bus on rails?

[WesTheAngelino]

^ Not a god damn thing.

[fflint]

Writing as one who has commuted by train and bus in San Francisco for many years, there most certainly is a difference between the two modes. Muni Metro may not be as fast as BART, may get crowded despite higher capacity, and may be delayed by traffic when running on the surface--but Muni buses always run slow, always get mired in surface traffic, usually get overcrowded, and never run free in underground tunnels.

[J Church]

Never been on a Muni bus, have you?

[Justin10000]

What's wrong with Muni buses?

When I visited SF in the summer. I really enjoyed the ride from the Trolleybuses. They go everywhere! I was surprised by the way the driver maneouvered through tight spaces.

Granted, it is nothing compared to the Muni Metro(really ,really awesome), but they were still decent.

[J Church]

What's wrong with Muni buses?

It's like asking where George Bush went wrong.

[Justin10000]

Well since I do not live there. I do not know the real deal about Muni.

[J Church]

No worries. Just take it from a local--any local--Muni sucks. Especially Muni buses, although the streetcars have their own issues.

[sf_eddo]

In Muni's defense, I love it. But I only take the 21 Hayes and the Van Ness to Embarcadero subway, so I'm sure I only get the best of Muni.

[Justin10000]

No worries. Just take it from a local--any local--Muni sucks. Especially Muni buses, although the streetcars have their own issues.

Understandable.

When I was there, i really enjoyed the rail lines. Especially the J line.
I live in Toronto, and I think the TTC sucks, even though tourists love it.

[jamison]

I'm sorry I'm new to public transit in San Francisco - is the Muni Metro rapid transit? That is does it have 1) Signal Priority and 2) does it run on a dedicated corridor? If it has neither of these, what really makes it better than a bus on rails?

Muni Metro is a hybrid... maybe mash-up is a better word... of dedicated and shared rights-of-way. All Muni Metro lines share a common subway corridor along market before coming coming to the surface where all except this brand new T-Third Street line are in mixed traffic with cars for most or all of there time on the surface.

The J, K, L, M + N lines were all streetcar lines constructed prior to WWII when traffic wasn't an issue. For most of them there is some portion on the surface that's been converted to a dedicated right of way, and signal priority is still in it's infancy here with a lot of talk, but so far only one intersection I know of has had it's light retimed (the J-Church at 30th and San Jose) but both light re-timing and true signal priority where the lights will flip are going to happen.

The T-Third Street meanwhile has it's own dedicated right of way and signal priority for nearly it entire length except for several blocks near the end which were not wide enough to allow a right of way, but it's along a neighborhoods commercial core of where traffic is light and across a bridge.

Through the dedicated right-of-way and signal priority, this 5.1 mile corridor with 18 stations was design to have a 32 minute running time, but testing has turned out to be 23 minutes.

[MSPtoMKE]

Understandable.

When I was there, i really enjoyed the rail lines. Especially the J line.
I live in Toronto, and I think the TTC sucks, even though tourists love it.

Ahhh, that classic story. A visitor to a city raves about the transit system, only to have a local tell them how much it sucks. Locals (except for the most prolific of boosters) are rarely satisfied with what they have. Not surprising, because they have to deal with the problems every day. To the visitor it is all wonderful and cool and different. Of course, I also think there is something to be said that locals take for granted the good things their system has, that perhaps the visitor isn't lucky enough to have in their city.

[BTinSF]

The N-Judah is being replaced because the ridership isn't high enough to require two-car trains, saving what I was told is $2 million a year. The N-Judah never seemed like the right choice to me because of how frequently it gets delayed on the surface.



I realize it's a small percentage of the ridership, but I always thought one reason for making the T-Third an extention of the N-Judah was that it would then connect the 2 main campuses of UCSF (Mission Bay and Parnassus)without a need for a transfer. Especially a large hospital is built at Mission Bay, there will be a need for students and faculty to go back and forth in significant numbers (any medical school has to have access for both faculty and students to both the academic and clinical areas). This is just a thought--and maybe based on my personal viewpoint--but I guess either Muni doesn't think any of those folks will be taking public transit or doesn't care.

[BTinSF]

I'm sorry I'm new to public transit in San Francisco - is the Muni Metro rapid transit? That is does it have 1) Signal Priority and 2) does it run on a dedicated corridor? If it has neither of these, what really makes it better than a bus on rails?

I agree with Fflint in terms of the ultimate difference between the two modes, but it should be said that much of the Muni Metro DOES have a dedicated corridor and signal priority. Having been retro-fitted into a dense, crowded city, it could not always have those things at a reasonable price, but where it could, it does. It runs as a subway under Market St (the city's busiest central artery) and Twin Peaks/Mt. Davidson to West Portal. Elsewhere it runs in dedicated center strips such as along the Embarcadero, Third St (the line under discussion), much of Judah St., parts of the J-Church line (such as between 16th/Church and Noe Valley) and the part of the M-Ocean View on 19th Ave. These areas alone make it faster and more pleasant than any bus trip in SF as Fflint said.

[BTinSF]

No worries. Just take it from a local--any local--Muni sucks. Especially Muni buses, although the streetcars have their own issues.

Aw, Geez. Sure, it sucks. But the city would be unliveable without it, even in its many-flawed form. So while I admit it sucks, I have to feel greatful it's there and functioning as well as it does. And we can dream, can't we, of a smoothly-functioning Muni?

[jamison]

I realize it's a small percentage of the ridership, but I always thought one reason for making the T-Third an extention of the N-Judah was that it would then connect the 2 main campuses of UCSF (Mission Bay and Parnassus)without a need for a transfer. Especially a large hospital is built at Mission Bay, there will be a need for students and faculty to go back and forth in significant numbers (any medical school has to have access for both faculty and students to both the academic and clinical areas). This is just a thought--and maybe based on my personal viewpoint--but I guess either Muni doesn't think any of those folks will be taking public transit or doesn't care.

The T-Third Street was originally planned as an extension of the J-Church, then later an extension of the K-Ingleside before becoming a completely separate line from the others. Neither would have provided direct campus-to-campus service.

There were maps which showed the N-Judah running three stops further into Mission Bay where it would turn around at the 20th Street loop, but that loop isn't complete and won't be for at least a few years.

Muni linking the two UCSF campuses probably isn't that important because UCSF offers it's own shuttle service between not Mission Bay and Parnassus, but Mount Zion, General Hospital, other UCSF facilities, BART and several other spots in the city (the one a friend used to take stopped in the Castro) which is more direct than Muni.

A several years from now when the new hospital opens I'm sure you're right, and a larger percentage of people will be patients who need to travel between the two campuses to see specialists instead of employees and students who take the UCSF shuttles.

When that time comes though, Mission Bay be growing up with more residential development requiring additional Muni service. The loop will be complete before that happens, so it could well be the Judah if the ridership is there.

[vizvalleykid]

y does Muni suck u say? well outside of the tourist infested downtown where there are so many busses on market u think its like heaven. but out in the neighborhoods it is a real issue. i commute home from school by muni. when i wait after school sometimes i wait 1 hour for the 29 Sunset because of Muni's inefficency to add longer busses or more during the hours of 3:30-6 because the 29 passes almost 6 schools. now u can imagine the congestion. even on weekends it can come really late, some driver doesnt fill the route and people have to wait for 45 minutes. outside of downtown except traffic, muni is horrible. but without it how would i travel 8 miles to school everyday.

[BTinSF]

when i wait after school sometimes i wait 1 hour for the 29 Sunset because of Muni's inefficency to add longer busses or more during the hours of 3:30-6 because the 29 passes almost 6 schools. now u can imagine the congestion . . . . without it how would i travel 8 miles to school everyday.

Hah! I live on Van Ness (2 high-frequency routes) and even I can imagine the congestion. I avoid riding Muni between 3:30 and 5 if I can. Not only is it packed with kids, but they aren't very well-behaved kids either. Generally, they take over the busses with rude behavior and drive out the rest of the public. Come to think of it, maybe Muni sucks more than I thought. ;)

[vizvalleykid]

Hah! I live on Van Ness (2 high-frequency routes) and even I can imagine the congestion. I avoid riding Muni between 3:30 and 5 if I can. Not only is it packed with kids, but they aren't very well-behaved kids either. Generally, they take over the busses with rude behavior and drive out the rest of the public. Come to think of it, maybe Muni sucks more than I thought. ;)

haha Van Ness those must be the Galileo kids... but the 29 has Wash, AP, Lowell, SF State, City College, Denman, Balboa, JJSE, and Burton............. all combined on one route.......insane! I usually have to wait really long because the 29 is packed with AP kids which are so loud and annoying and usually skips the Lowell stop until like 4:30. But somedays like yesterday one can get lucky!:tup:

[BTinSF]

haha Van Ness those must be the Galileo kids...

Yup . . . and Sacred Heart ;)

[sf_eddo]

So I rode the T-Third today just for kicks. Got on at Mission Bay, rode southbound. The Bayview commercial corridor really looks like it *could* be lively, but currently looks like it suffers financially. I like the elevated platforms along the whole route, and there were many people standing outside on the street, watching the foreign streetcar in service. Also, the ride is free if you get on south of 4th and King.

Rode the T back to the Embarcadero station - total time from the end of the line to Embarcadero was around 25 to 30 minutes, I think? Wasn't really keeping track of time, but it didn't seem that long, and the ride was pleasant. I'm a fan.

[coyotetrickster]

I realize it's a small percentage of the ridership, but I always thought one reason for making the T-Third an extention of the N-Judah was that it would then connect the 2 main campuses of UCSF (Mission Bay and Parnassus)without a need for a transfer. Especially a large hospital is built at Mission Bay, there will be a need for students and faculty to go back and forth in significant numbers (any medical school has to have access for both faculty and students to both the academic and clinical areas). This is just a thought--and maybe based on my personal viewpoint--but I guess either Muni doesn't think any of those folks will be taking public transit or doesn't care.

BT, UCSF runs its own shuttles between Mission Bay and Parnassus. We never entered the picture in terms of who would be serviced by the T-Line.

[BTinSF]

BT, UCSF runs its own shuttles between Mission Bay and Parnassus. We never entered the picture in terms of who would be serviced by the T-Line.

I don't know anything about how the shuttles operate--I've seen them running around town--but I'd still think it would be useful to be able to just jump on an N-Judah and do the trip whenever you wanted rather than waiting for a shuttle (or do they operate a schedule as frequent as the N?).

[CityKid]

I unfortunately did not get the opportunity to ride it this weekend; however, I did get to see it in the Market Subway right before catching the K to West Portal. I will have to do that next weekend.

[passdoubt]

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/01/14/ba_munilive141846.jpg
With free rides offered on the weekends until April 7, Muni's new T-Third light rail line draws hundreds of passengers. Chronicle photo by Lance Iversen.

SAN FRANCISCO
A light-rail ride that gives view of city in flux (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/14/BAGRNNIHH91.DTL)

John King, Chronicle Urban Design Writer

Sunday, January 14, 2007

Look north from the light-rail platform at Kirkland Avenue and Third Street in San Francisco's Bayview neighborhood, and the view includes the Bay Bridge and Yerba Buena Island.

Closer at hand -- right across the street -- a mortuary stands next to a market that advertises check-cashing in English and Spanish, and a store named Da Corner has a T-shirt on display that cautions "Can't Sell Dope Forever."

Yesterday, the San Francisco of postcards and its gritty counterpart were linked by the opening of a 5-mile light-rail line running from King Street near AT&T Park south to the Brisbane border. Not only does the $667 million project connect downtown to the city's southeastern neighborhoods, it also reveals a San Francisco that many Bay Area residents won't recognize.

And for first-day riders, that was part of the appeal.

"I like neighborhoods. It's nice to see different ones," said Jim Ward of Walnut Creek, a software development manager and an electric rail buff. "It'll be interesting to come back in a couple of years and see how things go."

Service on the new T-Third line doesn't start on a daily basis until April 7. But on weekends until then, free rides are being offered between 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. while Muni engineers and train operators work out the kinks of a line that crosses two drawbridges, climbs over a freeway and for eight blocks of Third Street shares a lane with automobiles.

Yesterday's opening also drew Muni officials and local politicians, who crowded into two light-rail cars at the Castro subway station at 8:30 a.m. and spilled out onto the Kirkland Avenue platform 40 minutes later. They were greeted by Mayor Gavin Newsom and Supervisor Sophie Maxwell, whose district is home to nearly the entire extension.

"Being connected to the city is so very, very important," Maxwell told the crowd. "I can get on a streetcar and go to work for the first time. Not two or three buses, having to risk my life in some strange place to get home.''

The northern end of the new T-Third line is the Castro Station. From there, it slides east below the Financial District and emerges on the Embarcadero along a light-rail route that opened in 1998. It then swings onto Fourth Street, cuts over to Third Street south of Mission Creek, and follows that road for several miles down to Sunnydale Avenue in Brisbane, just across the border from the Visitacion Valley neighborhood.

Along the way is an up-close view of a city in flux.

The first stretch heading south goes through Mission Bay, a redevelopment district where cranes and construction sites frame Third Street. Then comes the so-called Central Waterfront, where businesses such as Grabber Drywall Supply and Rent-A-Wreck are being joined by loft condominiums, and the Dogpatch Saloon sits next to Yield Wine Bar.

In Bayview -- a neighborhood that has both called for better connections and worried about gentrification -- the Third Street commercial district clearly has seen better days.

There are storefront churches where stores used to be, and boarded-up windows, and signs that proclaim former tenants such as Art the Tailor with "Quality Clothing." At Newcomb Avenue, four stories of housing are on the rise -- and a posted public notice says the corner is being considered for a "community safety camera" to keep a 24-hour watch on the scene.

But the T-Third line itself is distinctive, with palm trees on the median and customized streetlamps along the way. There's public art unique to each stop, such as the mosaics of birds -- a starling, a lark and an egret, for example -- embedded in the platform at Shafter Avenue. There also are retailers gambling that the new line will mean better days.

One is Yvonne Hines, who opened Pralines by Yvonne at 5128 Third St. in October -- using a home equity loan to expand her baking business from street fairs and festivals to a shop open four days a week.

"I decided to step out on faith," Hines said while her niece served a customer and her young daughter played nearby. "You can find shoes on Third Street, you can find clothing, you can find restaurants. What we need are more people."

By 1:30, Hines said, she'd had 10 customers come in whom she hadn't seen before. Like the T-Third line, it was a start. T-Third line

When: Operates only on weekends between 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. for first 3 months.

Where: Runs between Castro Station and Sunnydale Avenue.

Cost: Free until April 7 if you board south of Fourth and King streets.

E-mail John King at jking@sfchronicle.com. To see more photos from Muni's new light-rail line, go to sfgate.com.


http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/01/14/ba_munilive141979.jpg
Hundreds rode Muni's newest Metro line, the T-Third, free of charge on Saturday. Chronicle photo by Lance Iverse

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/01/14/ba_munilive141887.jpg
Hitomi Rall of San Francisco had never seen some parts of Third Street before Saturday's free Muni ride.
http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/01/14/ba_munilive141828.jpg
Muni security officers are reflected in Illya Reagans' glasses as he rides the new T-Third line on Saturday.

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/01/14/ba_munilive141937.jpg

Ivan Jackson (left) talks with 20-year veteran train operator Lee Owens during a stop in the Bayview area of San Francisco.
http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/01/14/ba_munilive141873.jpg
A Muni train travels north on Third Street at Le Conte Avenue. Chronicle photo by Lance Iversen

[vizvalleykid]

Today i visted my friend in the Sunset and took the long way home to try out the T. What i noticed with the L and older trains that the destination signs are still wrong and are not switched after the last stop. So i take the L to Powell Station and transfer to the T. At first a lot of people got on so I was thinking wow many people are checking the line out. But most got off at the caltrain station. I found the ride rather smooth and empty since it was about 5:30. One problem is the trains stopped at stations that people either didnt get off of or on. I think they should skip stops that no one gets on or off at as there are so many. THe total trip from 14th and Ulloa to Arleta and Bayshore took about 50 min. So the T basically took about 30 min, which is not bad but about the same as the 9X. Not much an improvement. I also think 2 cars should be used as it looked like it would crowd up real quick. Well i guess ill start taking the T to downtown so i dont have to deal with the overly crowded and bumpy 9X.

[fflint]

They're running on weekdays? I thought I read they were only running them on weekends...

[vizvalleykid]

well i guess today was special since it is MLK Day, but i dont know it might be holidays too.

[alexjon]

So, when someone asks if you ride the "T" in San Francisco, how many ways can you take that?

[BTinSF]

They're running on weekdays? I thought I read they were only running them on weekends...


Pretty sure it's a special MLK-Day thing. I read they were having some kind of "Freedom Train" deal as well as the weekend-style service.

[J Church]

Took a little joyride this weekend, snapped a few photos.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/360329553_d024ef2a30_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/360326795_a88d923523_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/360329552_464cf53a83_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/140/360326798_ad25122776_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/360329551_fac3ede497_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/140/360326799_dcb59eba97_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/360326801_dd9d825bee_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/360326800_d021e979c8_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/360326802_586f7429af_o.jpg

[CityKid]

^^^ Great pics, can't wait to take the joy ride myself. :)

[jamison]

Today i visted my friend in the Sunset and took the long way home to try out the T. What i noticed with the L and older trains that the destination signs are still wrong and are not switched after the last stop. So i take the L to Powell Station and transfer to the T. At first a lot of people got on so I was thinking wow many people are checking the line out. But most got off at the caltrain station. I found the ride rather smooth and empty since it was about 5:30. One problem is the trains stopped at stations that people either didnt get off of or on. I think they should skip stops that no one gets on or off at as there are so many. THe total trip from 14th and Ulloa to Arleta and Bayshore took about 50 min. So the T basically took about 30 min, which is not bad but about the same as the 9X. Not much an improvement. I also think 2 cars should be used as it looked like it would crowd up real quick. Well i guess ill start taking the T to downtown so i dont have to deal with the overly crowded and bumpy 9X.

I posted some photos from the inagural ride (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamison/), but to your point about skipping stops. I happened to run into the project manager at Sunnydale sunday on a T-Line trip with J-Church and he was the one who told me this came up because they never actually set a policy. I guess some drivers were treating this like the Embarcadero stations where the trains always stop while others thought it was like train service on the surface outbound.

The running time this weekend is likely longer than it will normally be, since drivers are being overly cautious. I noticed the trains I was on were sometimes stopping or slowing down through intersections where they had a green light because drivers aren't used to trains driving through. As for one-car vs. two-car trains, hold off on judging that for a while since the first several weekends are going to be full of people riding it just to try it out. I wouldn't be surprised if this coming weekend was even busier.

[vizvalleykid]

I posted some photos from the inagural ride (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamison/), but to your point about skipping stops. I happened to run into the project manager at Sunnydale sunday on a T-Line trip with J-Church and he was the one who told me this came up because they never actually set a policy. I guess some drivers were treating this like the Embarcadero stations where the trains always stop while others thought it was like train service on the surface outbound.

The running time this weekend is likely longer than it will normally be, since drivers are being overly cautious. I noticed the trains I was on were sometimes stopping or slowing down through intersections where they had a green light because drivers aren't used to trains driving through. As for one-car vs. two-car trains, hold off on judging that for a while since the first several weekends are going to be full of people riding it just to try it out. I wouldn't be surprised if this coming weekend was even busier.

Well in the rush hour times, the 15 Third usually packs up and its an elongated bus. Also since the 15 will be out of commision what bus will go from City College to Arleta and Bayshore station? I want to know as it will concern me later on.

[jamison]

Well in the rush hour times, the 15 Third usually packs up and its an elongated bus. Also since the 15 will be out of commision what bus will go from City College to Arleta and Bayshore station? I want to know as it will concern me later on.

A one-car train carries somewhere between 20-30% more passengers than the long articulated busses. What's the frequency on the 15? The T-Third Street will be every 9 minutes peak (15 off-peak and 20 late night) and if the trains run closer together than the busses do now, then it will help with crowding.

On the 15 going away... the MTA's been doing a horrible explaining the other changes besides the T-Line. When they do all the changes and ditch the 15, the 9X will start running full time and it will get extended to take over for the 15 at either end. So for you that means you'll be picking up the 9X at Arleta instead of the 9X to get to school.

[citizensf]

I don't know anything about how the shuttles operate--I've seen them running around town--but I'd still think it would be useful to be able to just jump on an N-Judah and do the trip whenever you wanted rather than waiting for a shuttle (or do they operate a schedule as frequent as the N?).

BT, as a somewhat frequent user of the UCSF shuttle system I can tell you that it's a pretty decent little system. The shuttle departures are pretty frequent (we're talking 10-15 minute intervals for the major routes). And since there are some overlapping routes, you may even have shorter waits depending on your destination. The shuttles are clean and comfortable, if a little bumpy, and the drivers are courteous and friendly (there are even a few "secret" stops not listed on the map that the drivers will make for you if you ask).

The big plus is that the shuttles are mostly free and publicly accessible. I say mostly, because on a small number of shuttles (I'm thinking of the one that goes between UCSF Parnassus campus and the Aldea student housing) the driver will check for a UCSF ID.

However, the shuttles that run between the various clinics, hospitals and campuses pretty much never check (Parnassus, Mt. Zion, Laurel Heights, Mission Bay, SF General). In part, because the system is not only used by employees but by patients.

The system was overhauled a year or two ago and moved from a fairly simple network of a half dozen routes to the current network of a dozen plus "lines".

Someone in the shuttle office must've gotten visions of grandeur, because they changed all the route names from their destinations to color names and made a shuttle map that seems to have ambitions of being a full-fledged tube map (eat your heart out muni metro map...*cough cough*). The change, as you can expect, is confusing since where you used to be able to see the "Mount Zion" shuttle and know where it was going, you now have to look for the "Black or the "Tan" lines (people never learn do they?).

Anyway here's the map:

http://www.dunderball.com/shuttle.gif

I've often thought that one could make a go of forgoing Muni entirely by relying on the various institutional shuttles in the city and forging a kind of ad hoc network out of them (what with UCSF, the extensive Academy of Art system and SF State). Would be a fun little experiment to try anyway (assuming you could get by without proper ID).

Sorry to digress off topic. The T-line pics look great. I can't wait to take a ride myself and check out some neighborhoods I've barely even touched in SF.

[BTinSF]

I've often thought that one could make a go of forgoing Muni entirely by relying on the various institutional shuttles in the city and forging a kind of ad hoc network out of them (what with UCSF, the extensive Academy of Art system and SF State). Would be a fun little experiment to try anyway (assuming you could get by without proper ID).



Don't forget Kaiser. ;)

[J Church]

I've often thought that one could make a go of forgoing Muni entirely by relying on the various institutional shuttles in the city and forging a kind of ad hoc network out of them

Sort of like working your way down the Vegas strip using monorails? Before they connected them?

Anyway ...

[citizensf]

Sort of like working your way down the Vegas strip using monorails? Before they connected them?

Anyway ...

Heh, well I guess most of the transfer points would require a little "creativity".

I guess the other cynical response is that we already have a transit system where folks can ride without payin'...it's called Muni.

[CityKid]

At Muni's new website:

http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mmaps/images/Metro-Map-Sq-47x47-final.gif


I imagine this will be replace the old Metro Muni maps in all the trains.

[J Church]

Nice find. There's been a version of this up in Van Ness Station for awhile, but not the complete system.

Surprisingly enough, I like it. There are things I would change (two major, glaring problems actually) but the overall fundamentals are reasonably sound.

[Frisco_Zig]

is completed on Van Ness and Geary if they will be incorporated into the "Metro" map. I would think so as this is how these projects are being sold

[BTinSF]

is completed on Van Ness and Geary if they will be incorporated into the "Metro" map. I would think so as this is how these projects are being sold

Also from the new Muni web site:
http://www.sfcta.org/vanness/images/munimap-withlegend-lowres.jpg

Speaking of which, I know it's off-topic but Ooooooohhhhhh! I can't wait:

http://www.sfcta.org/Images/McAlliAlt5.JPG

[Frisco_Zig]

article today in the Chron about the Central Subway. I know Aaron Peskin knows better than this but I guess its all politics

Nothing really new for most except the consultant's idea of making a bus/rail tunnel.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/26/BAG5RNPJ5P1.DTL

[craeg]

g and v line?
Can wait till 2052!

[jamesinclair]

http://www.sfcta.org/vanness/images/munimap-withlegend-lowres.jpg

I think this is a much better map

[BTinSF]

g and v line?
Can wait till 2052!

These are the BRT lines and are much closer to reality than that. The official timeline calls for G-Geary BRT service to start in 2010 or 2011 ( http://www.sfcta.org/geary.htm ) and V-Van Ness service--a rendering of the most favored design for which I posted above--in late 2009 ( http://www.sfcta.org/vanness/ ).