USA Sprawl Festival continued: San Antonio

[James Bond Agent 007]

Link to the first thread in this series.
USA Sprawl Festival (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=112959)

Or, click on the following links to see just individual cities in that thread:

Kansas City (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2240987&postcount=1)
Some northern Denver suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241038&postcount=3)
Albuquerque (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241043&postcount=4)
Seattle (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241046&postcount=6)
Las Vegas (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241049&postcount=7)
Dallas-Fort Worth (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241120&postcount=15)
Some western & southern Minneapolis suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241150&postcount=16)
Orange County, California (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2242458&postcount=33)
Philadelphia (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2243795&postcount=39)
Tucson (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2244020&postcount=40)
Orlando (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2246260&postcount=54)
Northern Virginia/DC (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2248127&postcount=77)
Cleveland (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2248415&postcount=79)
Houston (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2250662&postcount=126)
Atlanta (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2252845&postcount=148)
Indianapolis (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2255900&postcount=169)
Long Island, New York (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2258869&postcount=186)
Jacksonville (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2262283&postcount=188)
Boston (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2288881&postcount=198)

And the 2nd round ones:

Phoenix-East (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115970)
Phoenix-South (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115974)
Phoenix-North (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115972)
Phoenix-West (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115971)
Portland (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116211)
Silicon Valley (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2342500)
Los Angeles (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116366)
San Bernardino County (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116460)
San Diego - south (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116473)
San Diego - north (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116668)
Buffalo (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2364201)
Broward County, Florida (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117116)
Dallas-Fort Worth II (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117213)
Riverside County, California (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117511)
Denver - south suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118325)
Orange County II (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118331)
Bergen and Passaic Counties, New Jersey (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118454)
Milwaukee (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=119705)
Columbus (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2491318)
El Paso, with some Juarez (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=121264)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/6906/sanantonio1wy4.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/622/sanantonio2jd5.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/5423/sanantonio3qw2.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/5319/sanantonio4lk1.jpg

Close-up of fancy houses.
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2331/sanantonio5bp2.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4100/sanantonio6tm7.jpg

Close-up of average, somewhat older houses.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7991/sanantonio7bs9.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4721/sanantonio8wr2.jpg

A break from the sprawl. Wild area south of the city.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1701/sanantonio9xc2.jpg

An older but fashionable, in-city neighborhood.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/934/sanantonio10lu0.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6829/sanantonio11aq1.jpg

Semi-rural area out on the fringe.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/123/sanantonio12rx3.jpg

Tennis and golf.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8617/sanantonio13ia6.jpg

Plenty of lots still available.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5976/sanantonio14tb3.jpg

Looks like some sort of fancy resort.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6205/sanantonio15ff6.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5968/sanantonio16fq2.jpg

Industrial/business park. Lots of parking.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9876/sanantonio17wb8.jpg

More industry. With less parking.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3251/sanantonio18hv5.jpg

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3092/sanantonio19je5.jpg

Even with all the parking, most of the spaces are taken.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8845/sanantonio20sn1.jpg

Wal-Mart. :D
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4460/sanantonio21ow4.jpg

Some lots still available in the development on the right. Hurry and get one before they're gone!
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9102/sanantonio22ll8.jpg

New shopping center in a new neighborhood.
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3268/sanantonio23yv2.jpg

This was interesting. It looked like an old mall on the city's north side that was being dismantled. Off to the right there was an abandoned Sears. Wonder what they're doing with this?
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/9353/sanantonio24zn7.jpg

This was just to the north of the abandoned mall, across the freeway.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9872/sanantonio25lp9.jpg

Office park. Lots of parking!
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5091/sanantonio26ii7.jpg

Close-up of houses hidden in the trees.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3452/sanantonio27bo3.jpg

Typical business park.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6526/sanantonio28ty6.jpg

Apartments.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7773/sanantonio29fc0.jpg

Bored yet?
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9606/sanantonio30zk1.jpg

Some people have a short commute.
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/3438/sanantonio31tj0.jpg

Typical corner business district. Notice the road-widening on the right. Gotta make room for more!
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4119/sanantonio32kv0.jpg

Are you sure you aren't bored yet?
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9809/sanantonio33id9.jpg

In case you weren't sufficiently bored, there's more on the way.
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4809/sanantonio34zc5.jpg

Some older stuff, with a few newer houses here and there.
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4584/sanantonio35uy5.jpg

Poor part of town. With the requisite junked cars in the backyard.
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4458/sanantonio36cj3.jpg

No so sprawly. I guess this would be classified as a "working class" part of town.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7561/sanantonio37ky0.jpg

More "working class" stuff.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2550/sanantonio38ta5.jpg

More apartments.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8371/sanantonio39cp4.jpg

Zzzzzzzz . . .
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9465/sanantonio40ri3.jpg

[KevinFromTexas]

Where in the world are you finding these, Bond? Do do Austin next, (if you have them).

[urbannomad]

http://local.live.com/ ... click on the "bird's eye view." They don't have it for every city, but quite a few do. Be sure to try out the new 3D feature it's amazing. Have fun.

[dharper6]

I wish these photos were taken during the fall or spring when things would be nice and green. It's amazing that San Antonio, a city with an incredible central core that everyone loves, is so typical of U.S. cities with the suburban spawl. When you drive into San Antonio from Austin, the development extends out about 30 miles (solid). Of course, Austin is the same way. Is there a large U.S. city that isn't that way? I haven't found one yet, but would like to.

[arbeiter]

this is perhaps one of the most depressing things i've ever seen.

[coddat]

I used to live two blocks from that wal-mart, trust me it's alot better than the flea market that used to be there. The abandoned mall, is Central Park Mall, but the Sears is still open, waiting for the area around it to be turned in to Park North Plaza. If you wanted to put up a real abandoned mall you should look at I-35 and walzem. The building with no parking is Brooke Army medical center, known all over the world as a leader in burn recovery and a Level 1 trauma center. It caters to both retirees and active duty.
to those who say it's depressing, remember San Antonio isn't a wealthy city by any means. Those tract houses represent struggle from those working class poor neighborhoods, brighter futures for people's children, not having to worry about drive-by's at night or drug dealers on the corner.

[ColDayMan]

Hmm...

[dharper6]

"to those who say it's depressing, remember San Antonio isn't a wealthy city by any means. Those tract houses represent struggle from those working class poor neighborhoods, brighter futures for people's children, not having to worry about drive-by's at night or drug dealers on the corner.[/QUOTE]"

Wow....thanks for bringing us all back to reality. There's not a large city in this country that doesn't have the same issues San Antonio does with poverty and a struggling population. As much as I detest urban sprawl myself (used to live in it), it seems that most people I know who are part of it are perfectly happy. I work at an agency of about 3,000 people, and the vast majority live in the burbs, either by choice or by financial limitations. And again, they seem to love it. I'm new to the forum, but my take is that most forum visitors are love dense urban cores (as I do). And there's nothing wrong with that either.

Thanks again for the reminder.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Where in the world are you finding these, Bond? Do do Austin next, (if you have them).
They don't have coverage of Austin (yet). I've checked many times. If they ever do come out with coverage of it I'll definitely do it.

[arbeiter]

to those who say it's depressing, remember San Antonio isn't a wealthy city by any means. Those tract houses represent struggle from those working class poor neighborhoods, brighter futures for people's children, not having to worry about drive-by's at night or drug dealers on the corner.

Sprawl is ugly and depressing to begin with, but San Antonio's about the ugliest of the ugly. And I call bullcrap on your rose-tinted ode to the working class tract house. San Antonio's suburbanization is largely due to people from out of the area moving in (expanding economy, military presence, etc.) and are not part of that cycle you described.

San Antonio has not had the same scale of problems with drug dealers and drivebys like many other cities. excuses. you want to look at 'tract housing' that represents the struggle and escape from working class neighborhoods? look at brooklyn, or somewhere else, but not schertz or universal city.

[crisp444]

Wow, that is some ugly development.

[coddat]

Sprawl is ugly and depressing to begin with, but San Antonio's about the ugliest of the ugly. And I call bullcrap on your rose-tinted ode to the working class tract house. San Antonio's suburbanization is largely due to people from out of the area moving in (expanding economy, military presence, etc.) and are not part of that cycle you described.

San Antonio has not had the same scale of problems with drug dealers and drivebys like many other cities. excuses. you want to look at 'tract housing' that represents the struggle and escape from working class neighborhoods? look at brooklyn, or somewhere else, but not schertz or universal city.

I'm not saying it's pretty, and I would love it if everyone could live in an alamo heights, or monte vista enviroment, but they can't. You should be better informed however, San Antonio's military presence has been on the rapid decline for about a decade, coming with the closure of Kelly and brooks AFB, now will Lackland AFB losing the majority of it's programs San Antonio can hardly be called military city.
You talk about drug dealers and drivebys like you know San Antonio, but aren't you from Austin,but now you live in brooklyn? What do you know? Do you know of neighborhoods called gunrise (sunrise), places where police no longer offer protection. or the Glen which no city will annex because the cost of police protection is too high. The Glen recently lost all section 8 funding because it's too dangerous! "SAHA is phasing out the subsidized housing program by mid-fall 2007 in The Glen and adjacent Camelot II neighborhoods because of rising crime, unsafe conditions and uncooperative landlords renting to Section 8 clients, the city's housing agency said" from the San Antonio express news http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=1159D1418976B2F0&p_docnum=14&s_dlid=DL0106120818112214852&s_ecproduct=SUB-FREE&s_subterm=Subscription%20until:%2012/14/2015%2011:59%20PM&s_subexpires=12/14/2015%2011:59%20PM&s_username=safree&s_upgradeable=no?p_action=doc&p_docid=1159D1418976B2F0&p_docnum=14&s_dlid=DL0106120818112214852&s_ecproduct=SUB-FREE&s_subterm=Subscription%20until:%2012/14/2015%2011:59%20PM&s_subexpires=12/14/2015%2011:59%20PM&s_username=safree&s_upgradeable=no&mysa_login=1 What about a whole 1.1 million square foot mall abandoned because of drivebys in the parking lot? you didn't know about that did you? If you want to pick on sprawl, pick on the mcmansions of the Dominion and Stone Oak. Don't pick on the 90,000 dollar houses of live oak and Converse, besides most of those house in the photos look like they are from out by seaworld, not schertz or universal city.

[Boquillas]

I think these threads would be more informative if every picture was accompanied with a corresponding map detailing the location of these neighborhoods and their distance from downtown. San Antonio's history of suburban development is not typical, in that many dense suburbs sprung up around each of the half-dozen or so military installations around town over several decades. The really disgusting stuff is that far west and northwest stuff, and Stone Oak. Hell, Stone Oak looks like Austin. Yecchh. I was born in town, in an apt complex in Alamo Heights, but my parents moved to an $80,000 house on the NW side of town in the early '80s because they couldn't afford to live in 78209 anymore. This was before this decidedly non-San Antonio residential growth we've seen in the past decade and a half on the north side.

What I don't understand is how the developers in the pre-sunbelt cities of the northeast can be seen as any more scrupulous than the sunbelt developers. Had it been economically sound for them to build way out and exploit urban flight in the early part of the century, they would have done it then. They eventually did anyway.

As far as San Antonio's "ugliness:" San Antonio has character (and I'm not talking about the Riverwalk here) that goes back 300 years. It is alive; not thriving, but toiling. There is blood in those buildings; in the dreams of poorer families who believed, misguided or not, that their salvation was in owning a home. And they don't buy the McMansions in this thread. I don't know those people, and I don't care to. There are families who survived the violence of the Alazan Apache Courts of the late '80s and still live inside "the loop." And families like mine, who moved out to the 'burbs too long ago and regret it now. San Antonio isn't pretty, clean or filled with steel and glass. There is a superficiality to that kind of develoment which a lot of San Antonians resent (hence the rivalry w/Austin and its "contact highs" and cookie-cutter bohemia. Austin, Portland, Boulder, where am I again?) Here's a pic of the neighborhood where my band practiced for years in my drummer's house (which was his mother's and grandmother's house). To me, this is what San Antonio neighborhoods looked like.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/paul_heaston/saloop1.jpg

[arbeiter]

You should be better informed however, San Antonio's military presence has been on the rapid decline for about a decade, coming with the closure of Kelly and brooks AFB, now will Lackland AFB losing the majority of it's programs San Antonio can hardly be called military city.


I am very well informed - you're just not reading my statements completely. Most of the suburbia we saw pictures of were obviously developed in the postwar era, pre 1990 - at the height of San Antonio's military-industrial-complex expansion. The suburbs pictured are definitely tied to the military bases, even if a lot of people who inhabit the houses don't work for the military.


You talk about drug dealers and drivebys like you know San Antonio, but aren't you from Austin,but now you live in brooklyn? What do you know?


If you look at statistics, which I have, and don't resort to emotional responses like you have, you'll see that San Antonio historically has a lower crime rate than many of the other cities I was comparing it to. The bottom line is, you rose-tinted this $90,000 a house suburbia as if it was some kind of result of masses-yearning-to-breathe-free, when it really wasn't. It was postwar expansion - San Antonio is growing because of migration like it always has - it was just military-related before the 1990's. Why is it that the north, west and northeastern parts of the city have expanded but the south hasn't? You know the answer and I don't have to say it.

Bottom line is, San Antonio's got some ugly-ass sprawl, and this is merely just an aesthetic opinion. At least Phoenix's sprawl has some kind of hypnotic geometric appeal to it.

[GeorgeLV]

I see your suburban San Antonio Wal-Mart and raise you the West Charleston Wal-Mart in urban Las Vegas.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2517/lvwalmartds0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[vertex]

San Antonio's problem is 90% perception; it has a hard time drawing attention to itself from within its' own state. It has always been treated differently than Dallas or Houston, though historically it was the dominant city in the state until the early 20th century.

These days, most Texas homebuilders/developers seem to turn their attention to Austin first, when it comes to building some creative and interesting homes.

San Antonio deserve's a lot more. It has the type of history and pedigree that everyone on this board admires; an old-world (for us) city that has grown organically for almost 300 years. In terms of 'new' old-world charm, San Antonio should be in a league with New Orleans or Boston.

[crisp444]

In terms of 'new' old-world charm, San Antonio should be in a league with New Orleans or Boston.

I beg your pardon?!?

New Orleans and Boston have functional urban environments and blocks of gorgeous and well-preserved buildings. San Antonio has a few of those and a small, walkable urban environment around Riverwalk. Unfortunately, most of the city (that I have seen, at least - and I thought I saw the "nicer" parts) is boring and unattractive sprawl. The city may have a rich history, and as many of you like to use the word "soulless" in connecton to sprawl, this history does NOT show through in the bland, boring architecture surrounding the city's core. San Antonio was one of the few places I have ever been in which both the inner and outer neighborhoods equally disappointed me. Yeah, lots of it is working class and not "fancy" like some of the "boutique cities," but when I compare that with working class parts of Pittsburgh, Saint Louis, or Chicago these cities' vernacular working/middle class neighborhoods just blow San Antonio away.

[vertex]

:previous: Please re-read what I said. SA 'should' be in a league with these cities, I didn't say it was. Frankly, it deserves a fate better than what has happened to it in the last 40 years.

There was alot destroyed in the late 60's for the sake of urban renewal, the ugly hemisphere plaza/arena/tower being one result.

It just seems to me that SA is still paying for this mistake, long after cities like Boston have been able to recover from similar self-inflicted wounds. I don't think anyone on this board is about to admit that the City Hall, the central artery and the destruction of the west end were proud moments for Boston...

[dharper6]

I'm amazed at how a few members get their thrills by being so nasty (e.g., instead of constructive criticism, spewing out statements like "your skyline is crap", etc.). Sometimes people do it in order to rationalize to themselves that they're city is better...it's a "bully" approach. Every city is what it is, the good and bad. I've spent a lot of time in S.A. and love a lot of it. And the parts of it that aren't so attractive visually happen to have real people living there. In most cases the last thing on their minds is whether their neighborhood meets the criteria of some distant critic.

[hauntedheadnc]

I don't see what people are getting so het up about, really. This stuff doesn't look any worse than the sprawl from any other arid area. I certainly don't think, as others are saying, that it's the ugliest sprawl shown in this series.

[crisp444]

In my opinion, the Texas sprawl that has been shown to us from Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio IS the worst that I have seen in this series of photos. This is not an attack on any of those cities, but just an observation of the sprawly, autocentric suburbs that I have seen on this thread.

I don't want to offend anyone from San Antonio or Texas, but developments like this are ugly beyond belief...
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/622/sanantonio2jd5.jpg

[urban_encounter]

Having lived there, I've always found it to be the most attractive city in Texas and arguably one of the most attractive in the U.S. There's not any more sprawl in San Antonio than there is in just about every city in America. Chalk it up to a healthy local economy. Certainly it could use more high density housing downtown, (but can't every city???)

It's a beautiful city and to really experience it, you can't rely on a few aerial pictures.

[James Bond Agent 007]

In my opinion, the Texas sprawl that has been shown to us from Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio IS the worst that I have seen in this series of photos. This is not an attack on any of those cities, but just an observation of the sprawly, autocentric suburbs that I have seen on this thread.

I don't want to offend anyone from San Antonio or Texas, but developments like this are ugly beyond belief...
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/622/sanantonio2jd5.jpg
I think it's just the uniform brown roofs and the relative lack of trees which make it look that way. They would probably look nicer if they were taken in the spring or summer.

In fact it's probably denser than this typical new stuff in Atlanta.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1917/atlanta17bw5.jpg

[21bl0wed]

As a native from sa i can say those pics don't come close to showing the true sprawl. Where are the pics of all the 800,000+sq ft shopping centers surrounded by nothing? Theres a lot of those here.

[Boquillas]

...I don't want to offend anyone from San Antonio or Texas, but developments like this are ugly beyond belief...
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/622/sanantonio2jd5.jpg

I agree it isn't pretty-- it was even uglier when it was a quarry or some such place. A lot of these northside SA developments are reclaimed limestone quarries, hence the lack of the otherwise ubiquitous mesquite/juniper/chaparral vegetation.

I've been around, too (43 states when I last counted) and have seen a ton of residential development and urban environments. I spend time in Queens, NY, all over Montana, California, and Texas. And while I will refrain from making aesthetic judgments of sprawl in other locales, I will say San Antonio is not alone. We all know that visits can never us allow the amount of time we need to really appreciate the subtlety of a city. Every glance in a brief visit is an opportunity to draw a conclusion, but only time tells the true story of a place. San Antonio is not "easy." It is not "obvious." It is a palimpsest; a textured, layered, and ultimately very rewarding city. It does not offer up its treasures to the visitor who is interested in succinct or broad characterizations to bring back with them. It is quite bleak in places, but not the aesthetically appealling bleakness that so many desire. It is a city that has been exploited and forgotten many times over. It is beautiful. One hundred foot cypresses line the river. Prickly pear grows in backyards. Goats graze next to a movie theater. Water flows for miles in a 300-year-old aqueduct.


There are a thousand dead Mexican soldados under Milam Park. And, yes, there are brand new ugly houses for those that want to buy them. Maybe because those soldados lost that battle. San Antonio is not Albuquerque. It is not New Orleans. It is not Detroit. It is just San Antonio, and it needs to be.

[urbannomad]

This sprawl looks identical to the sprawl found across the country. Be it the northeast, southeast, midwest, west, etc. It's all the same, that's why it's called sprawl. Unlike the older urban cores, it's being built at the same time with identical styles so despite what anyone claims you can't tell any of it apart, I don't care if it's texas or new jersey. It sort of like McDonald's, no matter where you go it's always going to be same and for some reason this is what makes suburban sprawl so appealing to people. I think it would be more interesting to post these photos without any hints to the location and then see what people say. I think it's clear when you list where it is you notice people's "geographic biases" immediately.

[vertex]

San Antonio is not "easy." It is not "obvious." It is a palimpsest; a textured, layered, and ultimately very rewarding city. It does not offer up its treasures to the visitor who is interested in succinct or broad characterizations to bring back with them. It is quite bleak in places, but not the aesthetically appealling bleakness that so many desire. It is a city that has been exploited and forgotten many times over. It is beautiful. One hundred foot cypresses line the river. Prickly pear grows in backyards. Goats graze next to a movie theater. Water flows for miles in a 300-year-old aqueduct.

There are a thousand dead Mexican soldados under Milam Park. And, yes, there are brand new ugly houses for those that want to buy them. Maybe because those soldados lost that battle. San Antonio is not Albuquerque. It is not New Orleans. It is not Detroit. It is just San Antonio, and it needs to be.

Thank you for that opinion.

[Double L]

San Antonio is some sort of a cult. The ghosts of The Alamo are haunting this town. Everybody's always fighting each other over here. Don't ever move here.

[21bl0wed]

San Antonio is some sort of a cult. The ghosts of The Alamo are haunting this town. Everybody's always fighting each other over here. Don't ever move here.

What are you talking about? I'm a very social person and have gotten along great with random people/strangers who live in SA. Perhaps you're just anti-social? You always seem to be arguing with locals in the texas section anyway? Anyway...back to sprawl...SA needs some other form of transportation the roads are a mess.

[coddat]

^ Tried light-rail, that got voted down, bring it back with a Northeast side line and you might have more support.

[21bl0wed]

^ Tried light-rail, that got voted down, bring it back with a Northeast side line and you might have more support.

Lol yea i may have been like 10 but i remember when it got voted down. A line running up to Schertz would kick ass.

[Asobi Seksu]

Sprawl is ugly and depressing to begin with, but San Antonio's about the ugliest of the ugly.

Junior, if this thread weren't titled and the city those pictures represented was not disclosed, you wouldn’t be able to distinguish them from any other metro in Texas. So please don't discriminate against San Antonio so copiously when all these pictures represent is every metro post World War II.

Also, I'm so glad that 15 or so pictures from live.com could give all of you the real picture of suburban SA. I especially like how the thread starter choice the "best ones" to help his cause.

P.S.

When did being elitist become cool?

[Asobi Seksu]

Who are any of you to throw stones?

Who are any of you to tell people that living here:

http://xs110.xs.to/xs110/06490/sasub.png

is ugly.

Some one could easily say living here:

http://xs110.xs.to/xs110/06490/saurb.PNG

is ugly.

It's shelter, it's one of the basic forms of survival. The body doesn't care if shelter is dense or sprawled or bright or bricked or tall or short or near or far.

[Double L]

Well as a side, San Antonio pictures are very different because our environment has a dead grass and rolling hills look, but yes as far as construction pattern of single family homes and strip centers it's all the same.

Also, I don't think that calling those neighborhoods ugly is a criticism, just an opinion. Those pictures do seem ugly. I don't think one persons opinion is always a criticism of another persons opinion.

[KevinFromTexas]

^ Dead grass? You can thank one of the driest years on record in Texas for that. It looks that way all over Texas right now, except, perhaps, with the exception of East Texas where they get more rain.

Ugh. :dead:

[Paul in S.A TX]

San Antonio sprawl looks no ddifferent than any other city in the U.S. you tell me what sprawl is pretty?

[TXlifeguard]

Those photos arent an accurate representation of san antonio's growth patterns, or sprawl. I'll be the first to admit that some of those photos (specifically the ones with no trees and identical brown roofs, etc) are good examples of really bad sprawl. I had a college buddy purchase a house in a neighborhood just like that and it sickened me everytime I'd drive in. I never could understand why anyone would live there. They chose it because it was their first home, and it was affordable (which for all the talk of dense urban living was a hell of a lot cheaper than anything on the entire island of manhattan).

HOWEVER...

Characterizing some of those shots as sprawl is unfair;
The Brooke Army Medical Center - (the one with no parking) is a scant four miles or so from downtown and where you if you are in the service and get a burn or one of the places you go if you lose a limb. Maybe parking would free up a bit if we werent in a war.

The mall being re-developed - the owners could have turned the space into warehouse or light industrial space - instead they are redeveloping the space into a new shopping and entertainment area - geared towards the neighborhoods near the space. Good re-use of the space IMO.

Any of some of those neighborhood shots - several of those in fact - are of neighborhoods that are old and vibrant. Walkable, with stores and services nearby.

The light industrial shots - find me a picture of an attractive industrial park anywhere. How do you sex up a shop building? Asthetics is not the top concern when business owners or builders are considering budget issues. As a business owner, it wouldnt be my concern, either. The bottom line would be. So are we not supposed to have any light manufacturing here? I'll take SA's manufacturing anyday over some of those bulky, hulking shuttered plants in the rust belt.

Some of the retail shots - one looks like it is at the Brooks City base, which is a soon to be shuttered air force base. The city of SA has done a great job with the transition, and added lots of NEEDED retail to an area of town that was historically underserved. Some people see retail and its bad - but how bad is it that people in those neighborhoods now have nearby access to the same retail that people in more affluent have enjoied for years. No one asked the southsiders how long they had to wait for a bookstore. Now they have one. All those redevelopments cant be Mueller's. Sometime the economic factors that would add the dense housing to the mix arent there. Sometimes an established neighborhood just needs close retail. That keeps cars off freeways, reduces pollution, etc. which we can all agree is a good thing. So why begrudge it?

The resort - which is actually the Westin La Cantera - is part of a master planned community, which includes retail, entertainment, residential, etc. Its a beautiful property, and was one of the first planned communities (was planned in the late 80's) that tried to make use of 'smart design'; things in scale, walkable, etc. Is it perfect? No. But as one of the first tries in the area, much was learned from it and it influenced other projects. Where were your cries of sprawl in 1987? Yeah. Plus, 4-star resorts arent allowed anymore? Why?

It all boils down to a combination of factors; in Texas, only cities- not counties, can pass laws regulating growth and land use issues. Some of the really bad sprawl lies just outside of the city limits. Until the legislature changes the law, dont expect it to change. Also, SA and most of Texas has an abundance of land and no natural barriers to prevent sprawl (like the bay with San Fran, or that Manhattan is an island). Add to this mix that some texas cities like Houston and San Antonio have no, weak, or very recently enacted zoning laws. Don't forget that new sprawl housing (in San Antonio) is very affordable and the majority of it is happening in two very good school districts (Northside and North East ISD).

I do have one idea that can slow the sprawlification here in SA; tell every yankee that will listen that we're all full up down here and there's no housing left and no one is hiring, so there's no point in coming anymore.

[Asobi Seksu]

Double L said dead grass because they were taken during the winter months (as you can see with all those trees missing leaves). Had they been taken in the spring those pictures would look better because the grass and leaves wouldn't be dead.

[Chicago3rd]

Sprawal is Sprawal. And now I am mad because I have to side with some of the folks I don't like in S.A. But man the anti-San Antonio people have really shown how low they are. Sprawal is sprawal.

S.A. goes from "hybernating grass" in the winter and they do have Live Oaks that stay green through March for a week or two loose leaves then are green again...to lush tall grass and wild flowers. Green and beautiful. Then slowly as summer rolls along the grass lightens and then it goes dormant again for the winter. But really that isn't the topic.

Sprawal is sprawal...if it is the desert it is sprawal...if it is in the fir forest it is still sprawal and if it is in the midwest prairie it is still sprawal.

Oh and the picture of suburb vs city. I see lots different. And it isn't just visual.

[crisp444]

San Antonio sprawl looks no ddifferent than any other city in the U.S. you tell me what sprawl is pretty?

Sprawl may be sprawl, but it sure isn't made equally. Architecture and landscaping are a big deal to me and the lack of these things in much of suburban Texas are part of the reason why i think San Antonio and Houston are the ugliest sprawl pictured in this series. The "prettiest" would have to be Southern California (excluding the Inland Empire), South Florida, Seattle, Phoenix, and Las Vegas.

[urban_encounter]

Sprawl may be sprawl, but it sure isn't made equally. Architecture and landscaping are a big deal to me and the lack of these things in much of suburban Texas are part of the reason why i think San Antonio and Houston are the ugliest sprawl pictured in this series. The "prettiest" would have to be Southern California (excluding the Inland Empire), South Florida, Seattle, Phoenix, and Las Vegas.


So your saying San Antonio sprawl is less attractive than (using your example) Phoenix sprawl??

Uhhhh, no don't think so.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Sprawl may be sprawl, but it sure isn't made equally. Architecture and landscaping are a big deal to me and the lack of these things in much of suburban Texas are part of the reason why i think San Antonio and Houston are the ugliest sprawl pictured in this series. The "prettiest" would have to be Southern California (excluding the Inland Empire), South Florida, Seattle, Phoenix, and Las Vegas.

Those pics don't show all San Antonio.San Antonio sits in three differnt terrains.San Antonio has beautiful terrain especially where the Hill Country begins.

[Paul in S.A TX]

I beg your pardon?!?

New Orleans and Boston have functional urban environments and blocks of gorgeous and well-preserved buildings. San Antonio has a few of those and a small, walkable urban environment around Riverwalk. Unfortunately, most of the city (that I have seen, at least - and I thought I saw the "nicer" parts) is boring and unattractive sprawl. The city may have a rich history, and as many of you like to use the word "soulless" in connecton to sprawl, this history does NOT show through in the bland, boring architecture surrounding the city's core. San Antonio was one of the few places I have ever been in which both the inner and outer neighborhoods equally disappointed me. Yeah, lots of it is working class and not "fancy" like some of the "boutique cities," but when I compare that with working class parts of Pittsburgh, Saint Louis, or Chicago these cities' vernacular working/middle class neighborhoods just blow San Antonio away.



It's funny how some people they think know everything about a city by one or two trips.

I bet this forumer cannot name any of San Antonio historic neighborhoods or any of San Antonio's historic arts districts.

Thes pics ARE ALL FROM OUTSIDE LOOP 410.San Antonio has at least 850,000 people inside Loop 410.Inside loop 410 you will find the heavily urbanized San Antonio where it isn't all sprawl.Come on now San Antonio is a 300 year old city and those pics show San Antonio 1980's on.

You dont see Olmos park,Alamo heights,Terrel Hills,Monte Vista,Alta Vista,Southown,King William,Lavaca neighborhoods or inner city suburbs in those pics.

Also the urban Riverwalk is being developed 12 miles, tying musuems,cultural centers and neighborhoods.The Riverwalk will be far from only being touristy.

[Paul in S.A TX]

This sprawl looks identical to the sprawl found across the country. Be it the northeast, southeast, midwest, west, etc. It's all the same, that's why it's called sprawl. Unlike the older urban cores, it's being built at the same time with identical styles so despite what anyone claims you can't tell any of it apart, I don't care if it's texas or new jersey. It sort of like McDonald's, no matter where you go it's always going to be same and for some reason this is what makes suburban sprawl so appealing to people. I think it would be more interesting to post these photos without any hints to the location and then see what people say. I think it's clear when you list where it is you notice people's "geographic biases" immediately.

RIGHT ON!!

[Reverberation]

This is not to hijack the thread. I want to show the differences between different cities in terns of sprawl. These are from Google Earth and I took one image from the inner city, and one from the outer suburbs. In my opinion, the Texas cities, Arizona, and southern California have the most dense sprawl.

Boston city:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Boston1.jpg

Boston - Norwood:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Boston-Norwood.jpg

Houston city:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Houston1.jpg

Houston - Jersey Village:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Houston2.jpg

San Francisco city:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/SF1.jpg

San Francisco - Concord:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/SF-Concord.jpg

Chicago city:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Chicago1.jpg

Chicago - Naperville:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Chicago-Naperville.jpg

Philadelphia city:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Philadelphia1.jpg

Philadelphia - Lansdale:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Philadelphia-Norrisville.jpg

Seattle city:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Seattle1.jpg

Seattle - Redmond:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Tigerdude07/Seattle-Redmond.jpg

I tried to cover all regions. I still think that northern sprawl is worse than southern sprawl.

[Mopacs]

I hate to hijack myself... but many have emphasized the natural scenery of San Antonio, and I thought I would supplement with a few suburban pics:
http://images14.fotki.com/v249/photos/5/54967/2710812/DSCN0290-vi.jpg

http://images18.fotki.com/v346/photos/5/54967/3110424/DSCN2937-vi.jpg

http://images14.fotki.com/v20/photos/5/54967/2710812/LaCantera2-vi.jpg

[James Bond Agent 007]

Thes pics ARE ALL FROM OUTSIDE LOOP 410.San Antonio has at least 850,000 people inside Loop 410.Inside loop 410 you will find the heavily urbanized San Antonio where it isn't all sprawl.Come on now San Antonio is a 300 year old city and those pics show San Antonio 1980's on.

Actually, several of them *are* from inside the loop. Though the majority are outside it.

[Double L]

The natural environment is different. I have lived in San Antonio for a year and this year the grass has been dead year round. Mopacs picture is of a golf course and is not representative of the usual San Antonio. I don't think saying it is "like the rest of Texas" is a true statement. However I don't think it's the "worst of the worst", looks like natural environment and transporation is the big differences with sprawl and San Antonio doesn't fare that bad in either category.

[Paul in S.A TX]

OLMOS PARK,TX inner suburb San Antonio.
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2004-02-3.jpg

GOVERNMENT HILL

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2004_11_2.jpg

STONE OAK
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2004_7_2.jpg
LOOKING OUTSIDE LOOP 410.
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/200310_3.jpg

FAR WEST SAN ANTONIO-SEA WORLD
Http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/newpics/SeaWorld2.jpg

NEAR DOWNTOWN SAC AREA.
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2005_05_3.jpg
NEAR MONTE VISTA
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2004_9_1.jpg

LEON VALLEY,TX
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_01_1.jpg

SOUTHTOWN -ABOVE BLUE STAR ARTS COMPLEX NEAR KING WILLAM HISTORIC DISTRICT.1800'S MANSIONS.
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_03_3.jpg

ALAMO QUARRY MARKET
http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/newpics/Quarry2.jpg
NEAR SEA WORLD
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2004_10_2.jpg

OUTSIDE LOOP 410
Http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2004_04_1.jpg

SOMEWHERE IN SAN ANTONIO

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_05_1.jpg

MANKE PARK 1920's BUNGALOS OFF BROADWAY.
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_04_1.jpg

NEAR SOUTHOWN
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2005_08_1.jpg

SAN ANTONIO MUSUEM OF ART RIVER NORTH AREA.
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2004_1_3.jpg
OLD CHURCH NEAR NEW DEVELOPMENT
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_07_2.jpg

UNIVERSITY OF THE INCARNATE WORD
http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/UIW_000.jpg

SOMWHERE IN S.A.
http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_07_3.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_06_2.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_10_1.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_09_2.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_06_3.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_04_2.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2005_07_2.jpg

my house

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_02.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_04.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/IH10-_wreck.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/Water_Line.jpg

[crisp444]

Nice to see a nicer representation of San Antonio, especially the first two pics. It's so spread out.. seems to be even more so than Atlanta. Lots of open space in/near San Antonio.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Nice to see a nicer representation of San Antonio, especially the first two pics. It's so spread out.. seems to be even more so than Atlanta. Lots of open space in/near San Antonio.



QUOTE=crisp444;2503912]Nice to see a nicer representation of San Antonio, especially the first two pics. It's so spread out.. seems to be even more so than Atlanta. Lots of open space in/near San Antonio.[/QUOTE]


it is spread out but it has it's dense areas.


http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RtrMKn5FTVAA_aijzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsaDc3OWcxBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTA2Ml84NA--/SIG=12bsovmjd/EXP=1165982796/http%3a//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/cushman02.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_Rq6gK35F2EwBO.OjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsaDc3OWcxBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTA2Ml84NA--/SIG=124tcqva4/EXP=1165983008/http%3a//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/t2.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RtvCK35FkTIAa1WjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsaDc3OWcxBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTA2Ml84NA--/SIG=12bn8b5ir/EXP=1165983042/http%3a//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/cushman04.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RqsXLH5FUggAPYqjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsaDc3OWcxBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTA2Ml84NA--/SIG=128e625tu/EXP=1165983127/http%3a//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/604b04.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_Rts_LH5FkjIABTGjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsaDc3OWcxBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTA2Ml84NA--/SIG=128bdo0ta/EXP=1165983167/http%3a//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/927-03.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_Rq1kLH5FOIoAHUCjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsaDc3OWcxBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTA2Ml84NA--/SIG=1243o2j09/EXP=1165983204/http%3a//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/t2.jpg

[Double L]

I have a theory that they built Loop 1604 too early in San Antonio, encouraging the city to spread out more and to have more open space in the developments.

[Asobi Seksu]

I have lived in San Antonio for a year and this year the grass has been dead year round.

Yes, because from spring to now still we have be under one of the worst droughts in South Texas (while Houston seemed to have stolen all the rain for Texas cities).

Although it's gotten better, we are still below average yearly rain amounts due largely to El Nino. You go from a drought filled spring to a drought filled summer to a drought filled fall to a cold winter, the grass isn't going to be usual.

[Asobi Seksu]

I have a theory that they built Loop 1604 too early in San Antonio, encouraging the city to spread out more and to have more open space in the developments.

Not true at all.

City planners in the 40's and 50's predicted growth would go south not north.

1604 itself is a product of underplanning for growth.

[Asobi Seksu]

Mapquest shows how green SA is.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?address=100%20E%20Commerce%20St&city=San%20Antonio&state=TX&zipcode=78205%2d2211&country=US&title=%3cb%3e100%20E%20Commerce%20St%3c%2fb%3e%3cbr%20%2f%3e%20San%20Antonio%2c%20TX%2078205%2d2211%2c%20%20US&cid=lfmaplink2&name=&dtype=a

[JManc]

the first thing i noticed about san antonio was the lack of greenery. very few trees and the grass had a scrub-ish look to it.

[TXlifeguard]

SOMEWHERE IN SAN ANTONIO

http://www.sahelicopter.com/pastpictures/images/2006_05_1.jpg


Those would be Chapparal Village (red roofs) and Chisholm Hall (at the top of the image). They are two residential facilities at UTSA's 1604 campus. Chap Village just opened in 2005 while Chisholm has been there since the mid 80's.

[Asobi Seksu]

the first thing i noticed about san antonio was the lack of greenery. very few trees and the grass had a scrub-ish look to it.

The first thing you noticed from what? Pictures?

[Asobi Seksu]

How can you look at pictures like this and say SA lacks greenery?

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_04.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_02.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_03.jpg

fyi, that's a school being built.

BTW, those were taken within the last month.

[potts]

After growing up in the midwest, I can see how someone would say that our city lacks greenery. It is in the arid southwest, after all. Not exactly a region that is renowned for its lush green landscapes. :)

[Mopacs]

How can you look at pictures like this and say SA lacks greenery?

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_04.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_02.jpg

http://www.sahelicopter.com/images/08_03.jpg

fyi, that's a school being built.

BTW, those were taken within the last month.


I agree... San Antonio is a very green city... even 'lush" greenery in areas, along the rivers (particularly downtown, along the riverwalk).

http://images14.fotki.com/v248/photos/5/54967/2710812/DSCN2931-vi.jpg

http://images5.fotki.com/v80/photos/5/54967/1023334/SanAntonio20040603_158-vi.jpg

http://images5.fotki.com/v84/photos/5/54967/352248/SanAntonio20040603_190-vi.jpg

http://images6.fotki.com/v82/photos/5/54967/352248/SanAntonio20040603_192-vi.jpg

http://images14.fotki.com/v256/photos/5/54967/352248/SanAntonio200406_153-vi.jpg

http://images14.fotki.com/v247/photos/5/54967/352248/SanAntonio20040603_196-vi.jpg

[KevinFromTexas]

San Antonio has one of the best downtowns in Texas when it comes to trees. Cypress, oak, syscamore, elm, pecan, pine, even palm trees. Most other cities in Texas have trees downtown too of course, but they're usually confined to either parks or "spruced up" major streets or heavily pedestrian friendly areas. In San Antonio, though, they're everywhere. I swear, next time I'm there I am going to take a TON of pictures in downtown. I'm usually there for atleast 3 days in July every year. I can't wait.

[bc2mb]

nauseating! :yuck:

[Paul in S.A TX]

After growing up in the midwest, I can see how someone would say that our city lacks greenery. It is in the arid southwest, after all. Not exactly a region that is renowned for its lush green landscapes. :)

Ive been through the midwest and some of it is brown.Nowhere near more green than San ANtonio.

[Double L]

Are we really going to argue the fact of San Antonio's geographic location and the fact that it is less green than most of the country including east Texas?

[Asobi Seksu]

Are we really going to argue the fact of San Antonio's geographic location and the fact that it is less green than most of the country including east Texas?

I should say so because when people are throwing out comments like: "San Antonio lacks greenery." It's false the 10th degree and why can't we argue a counterpoint? I believe this is a forum, however, if you don't like the discussion please see yourself out of the thread, it's that simple.

[arbeiter]

Well, it's all very subjective. But San Antonio, outside of the oldest neighborhoods and the Hill Country, has a fairly barren look to it in my opinion.

[Asobi Seksu]

Have you ever lived in SA or ever visited more than two to three days? And if so, when was this?

[arbeiter]

Have you ever lived in SA or ever visited more than two to three days? And if so, when was this?

Lived in Austin for more than half my life, and I have family in Olmos Park (one of the places that actually has trees in abundance.) I've visited SA plenty of times, and know enough to tell you how to get from Presa Road to De Zavala Road or Babcock or Basse or San Pedro. I can tell you that those big boots outside North Star Mall are tacky, and that I miss Earl Abel's.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Welcome back, Saytown

[Asobi Seksu]

Lived in Austin for more than half my life, and I have family in Olmos Park (one of the places that actually has trees in abundance.) I've visited SA plenty of times, and know enough to tell you how to get from Presa Road to De Zavala Road or Babcock or Basse or San Pedro. I can tell you that those big boots outside North Star Mall are tacky, and that I miss Earl Abel's.

So what you're saying is that you've seen internet pictures of Olmos Park, are an expert with either Google Map or Mapquest and you read articles about storied restaurants that get bulldozed for highrises. Also try Hollywood Park, Highland Hills, Highland Park, Terrell Hills, Alamo Heights, Northwood, Oak Park, Shavano Park, Helotes, Fair Oaks Ranch, Grey Forest if you want trees in abundance.

I've only lived in SA since 2003.

[Asobi Seksu]

I shouldn't even dignify that comment with a reply, but I will. So I'm the kid they banned for starting fights or whatever he did? That's shocking news to me.

[potts]

Ive been through the midwest and some of it is brown.Nowhere near more green than San ANtonio.

Its really not a matter of opinion. Fact is, San Antonio is located in a drier climate and recieves much less rain than the midwest does. Also, the persistent hot weather takes its toll on much of the vegetation here as well. Is San Antonio a dustbowl? Of course not. But it is certainly not as "green" as much of the midwest is. It is a gorgeous city nonetheless though. Why are you guys so hellbent on San Antonio being lush and green, anyways?

[arbeiter]

So what you're saying is that you've seen internet pictures of Olmos Park, are an expert with either Google Map or Mapquest and you read articles about storied restaurants that get bulldozed for highrises. Also try Hollywood Park, Highland Hills, Highland Park, Terrell Hills, Alamo Heights, Northwood, Oak Park, Shavano Park, Helotes, Fair Oaks Ranch, Grey Forest if you want trees in abundance.

I've only lived in SA since 2003.

Dude, you're taking words out of my mouth that I didn't say. I have spent countless thanksgivings and a few christmas evenings in Olmos Park. My aunt and uncle (and two cousins) live on Hermine Blvd. if you even know where that is. and I was saying that Olmos Park was nice!

and I've eaten at Earl Abel's several times, and I loved its uniqueness. I was complimenting San Antonio. Hell, my ex went to Judson High School. You should apologize for creating incorrect suppositions, simply because my opinions differ from yours. I've been to San Antonio too many times to count - I could almost tell you by rote rehearsal the names of every exit on the way on IH-35.

[arbeiter]

I mean, really, I am really ticked off. I hope you get exposed as Saytownboy and banned. I've been to the Saint, the Bonham, I've been all over the city, even down near Palo Alto College on the edge of nowhere. I've been to the Pig Stand, and that taco place that becomes a drag queen hangout. I've been to the original Central Market on Broadway. I've been to King William and First Friday or whatever it's called... been all over the damned city. And I still stand by what I say, douche.

[Asobi Seksu]

What I said was sarcastic in tone.

However, outside of the Olmos Park/Uptown Broadway area and the freeway into San Antonio, I venture to bet you didn't examine any other sections of San Antonio, probably the Riverwalk every so often. Also, when was this? You were probably a kid, so I'd say 10-15 years ago.

[arbeiter]

What I said was sarcastic in tone.

However, outside of the Olmos Park/Uptown Broadway area and the freeway into San Antonio, I venture to bet you didn't examine any other sections of San Antonio, probably the Riverwalk every so often. Also, when was this? You were probably a kid, so I'd say 10-15 years ago.

I was born in 1981. So do the math...
I couldn't have gotten into the Bonham 15 years ago. I would have to have had an excellent fake ID. Earl Abel's only closed down recently. The last time I was in San Antonio was December '05.

[Asobi Seksu]

I mean, really, I am really ticked off. I hope you get exposed as Saytownboy and banned. I've been to the Saint, the Bonham, I've been all over the city, even down near Palo Alto College on the edge of nowhere. I've been to the Pig Stand, and that taco place that becomes a drag queen hangout. I've been to the original Central Market on Broadway. I've been to King William and First Friday or whatever it's called... been all over the damned city. And I still stand by what I say, douche.

You hope I get exposed as someone I have never been and banned. Maybe you need to be banned. I've done nothing to have that assumption cast upon me. Hell, I find it a great disrespect towards myself. I've done nothing to warrent any ill will towards myself and I respect everyone's opinion here. But some of things you say I have a slight problem with, that is all.

[arbeiter]

You didn't get the irony - by supposing you were someone you weren't, I was doing EXACTLY what you did to me. Sucks doesn't? Don't make up suppositions about me, and I won't about you. Capice?

[Asobi Seksu]

I was born in 1981. So do the math...
I couldn't have gotten into the Bonham 15 years ago. I would have to have had an excellent fake ID. Earl Abel's only closed down recently. The last time I was in San Antonio was December '05.

Sir, do not get testy with me, I'm supposed to know you are 25? The clues you gave me painted a picture of someone who visited the out of town family during the holidays with your family (your parents). And I posted that before reading your post about going to those clubs.

[arbeiter]

Okay, then. All I am saying is: suggesting I am a liar was not the right thing to do.

To be fair to San Antonio, give its ugly suburban parts another 10 years and it'll look greener. You can tell 1970's-era suburban developments from 1990's-era suburban developments in SA by the amount of green on satellite.

[Paul in S.A TX]

http://www.tapatio.com/images/02-image.jpg

[TexasBoi]

Welcome back, Saytown

:haha:

[Chicago Shawn]

Lived in Austin for more than half my life, and I have family in Olmos Park (one of the places that actually has trees in abundance.) I've visited SA plenty of times, and know enough to tell you how to get from Presa Road to De Zavala Road or Babcock or Basse or San Pedro. I can tell you that those big boots outside North Star Mall are tacky, and that I miss Earl Abel's.


Ah, Basse Rd. Thanks for mentioning that, it brings back memories of a family friend who lived over there near the quarry. I always thought that quarry redevelopement was a waste of space, such a prime location midway between downtown and the airport, and yet those developers choose that sprawly low-rise gated developement garbage and a shopping center with an enormous parking lot. Such as sprawl, go with the flow.

Anyway, San Antiono's downtown is really beautiful for those who have not been there. Just think of it as a flower surrounded by a dirt pot as most of our cities are now. There are some really beautiful natural landscapes not far from the city, and I have to give points to Schlitterbahn in suburban New Brunsfeld, the most kick-ass water park I have ever been to.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Ah, Basse Rd. Thanks for mentioning that, it brings back memories of a family friend who lived over there near the quarry. I always thought that quarry redevelopement was a waste of space, such a prime location midway between downtown and the airport, and yet those developers choose that sprawly low-rise gated developement garbage and a shopping center with an enormous parking lot. Such as sprawl, go with the flow.

Anyway, San Antiono's downtown is really beautiful for those who have not been there. Just think of it as a flower surrounded by a dirt pot as most of our cities are now. There are some really beautiful natural landscapes not far from the city, and I have to give points to Schlitterbahn in suburban New Brunsfeld, the most kick-ass water park I have ever been to.

Lol not a very good example.only to the east of downtown is really gritty.You really shouldnt say that about the historic districts that mostly surround the cbd.

[dharper6]

After growing up in the midwest, I can see how someone would say that our city lacks greenery. It is in the arid southwest, after all. Not exactly a region that is renowned for its lush green landscapes. :)

I'm amazed at how people generalize about the "southwest". San Antonio is not in the "arid southwest". West Texas is, but San Antonio is not in West Texas. San Antonio, however, is in a transition zone that is not nearly as moist as saturated East Texas, and not nearly as dry as West Texas. The annual rainfall is about 25-28 inches, compared to Houston's 50 inches and El Paso's 7 inches.

Vegetation wise, it depends on which part of the city, since the city is located at the junction of several geographic land forms. The northwest portion is more wooded, in association with the hill county. The neighborhoods are quite shady. Nothing like East Texas, but not bad.

Oh...regarding El Nino. Normally, El Nino brings the rain back. But not this year. It's more like a La Nina year.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I shouldn't even dignify that comment with a reply, but I will. So I'm the kid they banned for starting fights or whatever he did? That's shocking news to me.

Well, the M.O. is awfully familiar.

[Boquillas]

So anyway, lush or not (some parts is, some parts isn't), San Antonio has beautiful areas and ugly sprawl. I will not be the booster who starts fights and offers ammunition. Some people on both sides of this have an axe to grind, and for them I suggest they start some axe-grinding thread somewhere else. James Bond Agent 007 did not fabricate the pictures at the beginning of this thread. San Antonio has sprawl-- a lot of it. I accept that as fact. I'm not happy about it. I was born there, and I love it very much. Whether it's uglier than other sprawl is a matter of opinion, and a civil discussion to that end would be fine. But San Antonio is what it is. I defended it as having character in spite of the sprawl, and that is all one can do.

In the end, San Antonians are suffering a fate that few cities have escaped thus far, and whether a city has sprawl or not should not be a reflection on the character of its people, but on the scruples of developers, local and nationwide (many of whom do not necessarily reside in the towns these subdivisions are built in) and the scruples of city leaders. For them, the problem is a stickier issue, and the immediate economics unfortunately often obscure the big picture. I hope they will see the big picture soon, and I have a feeling that'll happen. Sadly, good decisions usually happen after bad decisions, and not sooner. It will take sprawl to undo sprawl (meaning people often have to see the problem before they understand it). I'm hopeful.

[JManc]

The first thing you noticed from what? Pictures?

no. in the several times i have been there. i only live up the road (I-10) and like to visit san antonio every so often. but, yeah...the area is not known for its lushness. it's not a jab at the city but a fact of reality of its geographic location.

[potts]

:previous:

So true. But let these people think that they live in a lush, tropical green jungle. It's obviously very important to them. :tup:

[Chicago Shawn]

Lol not a very good example.only to the east of downtown is really gritty.You really shouldnt say that about the historic districts that mostly surround the cbd.

I was talking about the sprawl, not the grit.

[Double L]

This is the most redundant argument. Like, most arguments lead to a point, this argument doesn't lead to any point.

[Complex01]

Sir, do not get testy with me, I'm supposed to know you are 25? The clues you gave me painted a picture of someone who visited the out of town family during the holidays with your family (your parents). And I posted that before reading your post about going to those clubs.

Dude you need to calm down. Honestly no one else makes me more mad on here, then you and your comments. You take everything so serioulsy. Its green, black, blue, brown, its all the damn colors.


See that ====> :rant:

Thats you...


Moving on...

[Paul in S.A TX]

tree coalition


http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bDqeGchI62ABoC2jzbkF/SIG=1284erieb/EXP=1221159710/**http%3A//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/303-05.jpg


http://www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/cushman04.jpg

http://www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/staubach2.jpg

://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bF.4HMhIl.QA.G6jzbkF/SIG=1275kai51/EXP=1221160504/**http%3A//www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/60505.jpg;

[rsbear]

:previous: Yep, those are trees. And miles and miles and miles of sprawl. And yes, I have been to San Antonio, multiple times in fact, and I had a wonderful time each time, and there are many great areas within the city and the surrounding area, but SA does sprawl (my measurement - downtown to far edge of suburbia) more than most other metro areas of the same size.

[urban_encounter]

One of the reasons I liked living in SA, were the trees.

[Echo Park]

Poor Paul in SA. This thread has been haunting him for two long years.

[James Bond Agent 007]

One of the reasons I liked living in SA, were the trees.
Sorry to say, but those are some pretty wimpy trees. :cool: I've got one mere feet from my balcony that must be 120 feet tall. With a bald eagle occasionally hanging out at the top of it. :cool:

[Paul in S.A TX]

Randolph AFb Universal City-Shertz area.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/128/338185422_ab4c0435d1_o.jpg

Palo Alto College South San Antonio

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/338187223_a68fc65852_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/338189126_5de48739ec_o.jpg

South Central San Antonio

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/338179187_dc8c83bd9c_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/338178900_f6e6722e0f_o.jpg

Suburb of Leon Valley

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/338192499_9c3497007f_o.jpg

Six Flags

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/133/338191206_0321be28e6_o.jpg

Southwest Bio-Medical Research

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/123/338194390_f0e4397367_o.jpg

Somewhere San Antonio
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/338179311_ecfaf37883_o.jpg

I-35 south side San Antonio

Far West San Antonio 2001. 750 new subdivions built since then, behind Wall Mart.

http://www.wayneharwell.com/Westwood/Aerial2001September1300.jpg

Dense Suburban are NW San Antonio

photo TreeCoalition
http://www.treecoalition.org/images_cedar/Near-1604.jpg


cool pixels flickr
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/109/283309297_b61a7be35f_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/114/283309501_18df03b816_o.jpg

http://www.wayneharwell.com/Westwood/Aerial2001September1300.jpg

[urban_encounter]

Sorry to say, but those are some pretty wimpy trees. :cool: I've got one mere feet from my balcony that must be 120 feet tall. With a bald eagle occasionally hanging out at the top of it. :cool:

Yeah well I have two California Redwoods two feet from my deck. Top that..

;)

I don't have an eagle though. Just a few ducks...


But San Antonio is a very green city in terms of trees.