I'm tempted to just give up and indulge in sprawl

[the urban politician]

This is getting tiring.

I want transit, good urban planning, and better land use just like the rest of you.

But I feel like I'm 500 years ahead of the rest of this country on this one (USA, that is). There doesn't seem to be any significant "catching up" going on in the forseeable future. I preach to my friends, visit websites, join organizations, etc etc etc but to seemingly no avail. Just look at our leaders--their balls are in a steel cage, and special interests hold the key. Look at the American people--they've been asleep for as long as any of us can remember.

I'm tempted to just stop caring. Why not let them build those super-centers with parking oceans; let them build mega-highways meant to carry a million 10-ton vehicles. How about hopping into our cars, going to the mall, sipping some sugary mochas topped with whipped cream, getting some drive-thru cheeseburgers, and calling it a day. Why not just enjoy it?

After all, what's the point of caring with such an unresponsive public realm?

[James Bond Agent 007]

"Luke, it is your destiny . . . give in to the Dark Side!"

[PDXPaul]

People in asia would live in sprawl if they could. America's a sparsely populated country.

Sprawl happens.

[James Bond Agent 007]

The Dark Side beckons . . .

Link to the first thread in this series.
USA Sprawl Festival (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=112959)

Or, click on the following links to see just individual cities in that thread:

Kansas City (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2240987&postcount=1)
Some northern Denver suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241038&postcount=3)
Albuquerque (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241043&postcount=4)
Seattle (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241046&postcount=6)
Las Vegas (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241049&postcount=7)
Dallas-Fort Worth (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241120&postcount=15)
Some western & southern Minneapolis suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241150&postcount=16)
Orange County, California (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2242458&postcount=33)
Philadelphia (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2243795&postcount=39)
Tucson (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2244020&postcount=40)
Orlando (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2246260&postcount=54)
Northern Virginia/DC (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2248127&postcount=77)
Cleveland (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2248415&postcount=79)
Houston (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2250662&postcount=126)
Atlanta (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2252845&postcount=148)
Indianapolis (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2255900&postcount=169)
Long Island, New York (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2258869&postcount=186)
Jacksonville (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2262283&postcount=188)
Boston (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2288881&postcount=198)

And the 2nd round ones:

Phoenix-East (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115970)
Phoenix-South (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115974)
Phoenix-North (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115972)
Phoenix-West (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115971)
Portland (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116211)
Silicon Valley (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2342500)
Los Angeles (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116366)
San Bernardino County (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116460)
San Diego - south (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116473)
San Diego - north (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116668)
Buffalo (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2364201)
Broward County, Florida (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117116)
Dallas-Fort Worth II (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117213)
Riverside County, California (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117511)
Denver - south suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118325)
Orange County II (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118331)
Bergen and Passaic Counties, New Jersey (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118454)
Milwaukee (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=119705)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Such nice houses! Give in to the Dark Side! You know it's true! You can feel it, Luke!

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8519/orangecounty71na7.jpg

It is your destiny! Give in to the Dark Side!!

You want one of these, and you know it! You cannot deny the truth!

http://www.sportruck.com/news/2007-cadillac-escalade/4.jpg

[spyguy]

I'm tempted to just give up and indulge in sprawl

I double dare you to.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Luke, it is your destiny . . .

The wealth! The decadence! The power! The glory! It can all be yours . . . if you would only give in to the Dark Side! :drooling:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7881/northphoenix47yz9.jpg

Resistance is futile . . . You will be assimilated! :borg:

[JManc]

http://www.interplanmidwest.com/images/Applebees-ext-persp_interplan.jpg

http://investmentlandforsale.com/images/walmart.JPG

http://www.sacramento-tma.org/Images/Suburban%20sprawl.jpg

join us...

http://www.patrickruffini.com/archives/vader.jpg

[ChrisLA]

People in asia would live in sprawl if they could. America's a sparsely populated country.

Sprawl happens.

Working with a lot of Asians over the years I get the impression they love the sprawl of america. They rather live in a big house with a yard than some cramped apartment living on top of each other. My friend who I had lunch with today recently married a girl from Hong Kong. She said she miss her friends, but doesn't like super desnsity of Hong Kong. She prefer the more laid back lifestyle of the USA.

[SuburbanNation]

Working with a lot of Asians over the years I get the impression they love the sprawl of america. They rather live in a big house with a yard than some cramped apartment living on top of each other. My friend who I had lunch with today recently married a girl from Hong Kong. She said she miss her friends, but doesn't like super desnsity of Hong Kong. She prefer the more laid back lifestyle of the USA.

both cramped skyscrapers and auto-centric sprawl are symptoms of our modernity.

there is another option.

[miketoronto]

Do whatever you want. If you want to live in sprawl, go ahead.

I don't really care what other people do. If they want to exist in sprawl they can. I still got a city to go and enjoy. Let the other people sit in traffic, stroll through malls, and eat at Applebee's.

They can do that, and I will spend time downtown :)

[zaphod]

Sure why not. I would rather live in nice sprawl than a bad urban enviroment. I dont see whats so special about that.

Who would want to live in a gnarly HK human hive if they had a choice anyways?Of course Ive heard though they have lots of nice ones with pretty units and that beat american subdivisions when it comes to amenities

[POLA]

I feel your pain tho... I sit here paying out the ass for this small apartment and my friends in BFE live in awesomely buge places, and because of the internet and chains, they get everything that I get. Other then my own personal obsession with the urban environ, why am I here, I sometimes think if I moved I would be the big fish in the small pond.

[MonkeyRonin]

Who would want to live in a gnarly HK human hive if they had a choice anyways?

If its in a good location with good floorplans/amentities/price/views, I'd love to. they may look clausterphobic from the outside but inside is just like being in a small house minus a yard.

And, if we look on the bright side of things.. it seems like most young people from the suburbs are moving to the city once they move out, and "new urbanism" is becoming increasingly popular. so it ain't as bad as it was, say, 30 years ago.

[BnaBreaker]

both cramped skyscrapers and auto-centric sprawl are symptoms of our modernity.

there is another option.

This is a very important point that I think many people fail to grasp. There are about a thousand shades of gray in between aluminum sub-division and 90 story apartment complex. People see this as an either-or thing. I can see why people want to live in suburbia. But those positive attributes don't HAVE to come in the same package as the negative characteristics of sprawl.

[zilfondel]

Luke, it is your destiny . . .

The wealth! The decadence! The power! The glory! It can all be yours . . . if you would only give in to the Dark Side! :drooling:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7881/northphoenix47yz9.jpg

Resistance is futile . . . You will be assimilated! :borg:

...you too can live in a house that looks... exactly... like... everyone else for 5 miles in every direction! Just think - you know exactly what television shows your neighbors are watching, because only people of the exact same income and socio-economic group can afford a mortgage in the housing tract you live in. But in a few years, you'll be able to trade up to something even better! You might even get palm trees!!! :banana:

[James Bond Agent 007]

...you too can live in a house that looks... exactly... like... everyone else for 5 miles in every direction! Just think - you know exactly what television shows your neighbors are watching, because only people of the exact same income and socio-economic group can afford a mortgage in the housing tract you live in. But in a few years, you'll be able to trade up to something even better! You might even get palm trees!!! :banana:
Exactly! Once you've lived in that for a while, you can move up to this!

You want it, and you know it! Give in to the Dark Side!!

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8457/orangecounty61aa6.jpg

[zilfondel]

Do whatever you want. If you want to live in sprawl, go ahead.

I don't really care what other people do. If they want to exist in sprawl they can. I still got a city to go and enjoy. Let the other people sit in traffic, stroll through malls, and eat at Applebee's.

They can do that, and I will spend time downtown :)

In 2150, almost all of the world's cities (ok, the coastal ones) - and their sprawl - will be underwater, so I guess it don't particularly matter one way or the other, now don't it?

Check out this AWESOME google map - it lets you see what the world will look at different levels of sea.

http://flood.firetree.net/

[waterloowarrior]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Samwalton.jpg

Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen..... I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time you will call *me* master.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Bond, is there a reason you're only posting pics of Orange County sprawl? ;) :D

[James Bond Agent 007]

Bond, is there a reason you're only posting pics of Orange County sprawl? ;) :D
One of them was in Phoenix. ;)

[James Bond Agent 007]

http://opengardensblog.futuretext.com/archives/sith.JPG

[the urban politician]

I live in Manhattan, and make a decent salary. But it sure as hell doesn't feel like it when I look at my monthly rent and bills. I've considered areas of Queens (near the subway) and haven't seen a lot of relief.

Somebody said something about being a big fish in a small pond. I have seen salary offers nearly double what I'm making right now if I were to move to parts of Florida or Arizona; and these places have rents and expenses probably 1/3 of what I'm paying right now.

But I keep saying "no" to these people because I don't want to live an auto-centric lifestyle.

Why? Can't an urban environment be cheaper? Can't an urban environment be well subsidized by our tax dollars? Why must we carry the load for ourselves and everybody else? This is why people move to suburbia--plain and simple. I notoriously make fun of them, but I am probably not too far behind them in their migration to sprawl-ville.

Life is too expensive for our ideals. I'm at a major cusp here, honestly.

[JManc]

http://www.neilhetzel.com/files/neil/images/Trooper1.jpg

[BTinSF]

People in asia would live in sprawl if they could. America's a sparsely populated country.

Sprawl happens.

Not necessarily so. The thing that most impressed me when I briefly lived in Japan in the 1970's, was that there was so much unspoiled open space, much of it within an hour or two of Tokyo by train, and I attributed it to the fact that, aside from farmers and village folk, most people lived in cities and there was almost nothing resembling an American suburb. Perhaps it has changed. Perhaps they have adopted our ways. But as recently as 30 years ago they had not and it made it possible to have a country the size of Califonria with a population 5 times as great and still have places to get away from people and see nature as it had been for millenia. Believe me, I thought then and I think now that retaining that unspoiled scenery in spite of ever-increasing population was and is worth what sacrifices it requires.

[BTinSF]

I live in Manhattan, and make a decent salary. But it sure as hell doesn't feel like it when I look at my monthly rent and bills. I've considered areas of Queens (near the subway) and haven't seen a lot of relief.

Somebody said something about being a big fish in a small pond. I have seen salary offers nearly double what I'm making right now if I were to move to parts of Florida or Arizona; and these places have rents and expenses probably 1/3 of what I'm paying right now.

But I keep saying "no" to these people because I don't want to live an auto-centric lifestyle.

Why? Can't an urban environment be cheaper? Can't an urban environment be well subsidized by our tax dollars? Why must we carry the load for ourselves and everybody else? This is why people move to suburbia--plain and simple. I notoriously make fun of them, but I am probably not too far behind them in their migration to sprawl-ville.

Life is too expensive for our ideals. I'm at a major cusp here, honestly.

Look, I have arranged my life to experience both ends of the spectrum. My long time home is a midrise apartment building with 450 apartments in downtown San Francisco: a block from City Hall, on 4 major bus routes, 3 blocks from both BART and Muni subway systems, half a block from ZipCar and walking distance to almost any kind of food known to man. But after 20-some years of living the carless urban lifestyle, I had an epiphany. I got panhandled one too many times. The graffiti began jumping at me off the walls. I thought maybe my apetite for potstickers and Thai curry was finally sated, and the gray, dreary winters got to me.

So after some searching, I found what I called then and now "the anti-San Francisco". It's a place of warm, sunny winters where cabs don't exist and people think of public transportation as something that exists only in foreign countries. Once I encountered a panhandler (in a gas station no less) whose efforts were so amateurish I actually couldn't help myself and laughed at him. One other time I saw some graffiti and felt a rush of homesickness. I don't walk because there's no place to walk to except another street like mine and no people visible anywhere. When people here go out to eat, they drive to a place they can gorge on some form of beef.

This place is in Southern Arizona. I took advantage of the panic after 9/11 and bought a home here with almost exactly the same number of square feet as my SF place but I paid about 1/6 what the SF place was worth at the time. Now I go back and forth. I go to SF in late Spring and literally run around gorging on ethnic food for the first couple of weeks I'm there. I walk the city admiring the new highrises going up. Sometimes I sit in a cafe or "on the dock of the bay" and just watch the people (as well as the tide rolling away). Perhaps I go to the opera, a play, a neighborhood full of out gay people. But after a few months, the crowded busses and subway cars start to annoy. I become afraid I might attack the next derelict who asks me for "spare change". I start carrying a cane with which to whack at the next car to clip me as I'm crossing the street. It's time to move to the opposite pole. It's October.

And so I come to Arizona where I can step out the door at night and listen to the coyotes howl in the otherwise absolute silence while looking up to see a million stars in a crystalline sky. I drive to the grocery store every day, just to experience the thrill of pulling into my own garage and being able to put the groceries away within steps rather than having to haul them up 8 floors and through a quarter mile of hallways. There's no cafes, not even a Starbuck's, so I drive to Burger King to read my daily paper and watch some other humans. I can sit there and look at the spectacular mountains out the window.

The point of all this is that there is no perfect lifestyle. Everything about the way you live is a series of choices. You have to find what makes you happy. While for many years the city made me happy, all of a sudden it didn't any more. But I suspected what I needed was simply to get away for a while to let "absence make the heart grow fonder". I found that for me it works. But you'll never know what works for you unless you try it.

Find a way to give Arizona or Florida a try. If you own a condo in New York, don't sell it right away, rent it out. If you have a rent controlled apartment, sublet it. Keep your options to return to New York open for a while, but give the sunbelt a try. You'll never know if it's for you unless you do.

[niwell]

This is a very important point that I think many people fail to grasp. There are about a thousand shades of gray in between aluminum sub-division and 90 story apartment complex. People see this as an either-or thing. I can see why people want to live in suburbia. But those positive attributes don't HAVE to come in the same package as the negative characteristics of sprawl.


Exactly. I'm sick of the idea that's becoming increasingly common here (not nearly as much as SSC, but still) that it's either sprawl or massive high rise complexes. There IS a difference. North American streetcar suburbs provide the best of both worlds with (suprisingly) a much lower ecological footprint than either. Same goes for the human scaled districts of Paris or London.


As for giving in to sprawl, if you feel that not enough people are listening then go for it. The shit is gonna hit the fan sooner or later (10, 20, 30 years, probably no more) and such frivolities may become untenable. Till then, if you don't think you can make a difference, live it up!

[toddguy]

The Dark Side beckons . . .

Link to the first thread in this series.
USA Sprawl Festival (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=112959)

Or, click on the following links to see just individual cities in that thread:

Kansas City (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2240987&postcount=1)
Some northern Denver suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241038&postcount=3)
Albuquerque (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241043&postcount=4)
Seattle (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241046&postcount=6)
Las Vegas (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241049&postcount=7)
Dallas-Fort Worth (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241120&postcount=15)
Some western & southern Minneapolis suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2241150&postcount=16)
Orange County, California (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2242458&postcount=33)
Philadelphia (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2243795&postcount=39)
Tucson (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2244020&postcount=40)
Orlando (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2246260&postcount=54)
Northern Virginia/DC (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2248127&postcount=77)
Cleveland (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2248415&postcount=79)
Houston (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2250662&postcount=126)
Atlanta (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2252845&postcount=148)
Indianapolis (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2255900&postcount=169)
Long Island, New York (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2258869&postcount=186)
Jacksonville (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2262283&postcount=188)
Boston (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2288881&postcount=198)

And the 2nd round ones:

Phoenix-East (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115970)
Phoenix-South (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115974)
Phoenix-North (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115972)
Phoenix-West (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=115971)
Portland (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116211)
Silicon Valley (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2342500)
Los Angeles (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116366)
San Bernardino County (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116460)
San Diego - south (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116473)
San Diego - north (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116668)
Buffalo (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2364201)
Broward County, Florida (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117116)
Dallas-Fort Worth II (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117213)
Riverside County, California (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=117511)
Denver - south suburbs (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118325)
Orange County II (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118331)
Bergen and Passaic Counties, New Jersey (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118454)
Milwaukee (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=119705)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You should add Columbus to the sprawl festival. Northern Franklin/Southern Delaware county area is appalling. If you do I will give in to the dark side!:)

[ComandanteCero]

I found your solution urban politician:

move to Kansas City, St. Louis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Milwaukee etc etc etc (or even Chicago if you head to the right neighborhood). There are alot of urban cities, where you can live a comfortable non-auto oriented life style without paying in blood. And you don't have to live in a high-rise building to do it either. You can easily find medium density mixed use neighborhoods in any of these cities that offer an urban lifestyle with a range of housing options.

I think it's very easy to get caught up in the "I can only live a truly urban lifestyle in NY, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, D.C, etc etc" mentality without looking at the other options available. Similarly, it's easy to get caught up in the "i can only live a truly urban lifestyle in a high rise apartment right in downtown" mentality as well, without considering the medium density urban neighborhoods, or even streetcar suburbs that can offer a conveniently urban lifestyle as well.

[ChrisLA]

Look, I have arranged my life to experience both ends of the spectrum. My long time home is a midrise apartment building with 450 apartments in downtown San Francisco: a block from City Hall, on 4 major bus routes, 3 blocks from both BART and Muni subway systems, half a block from ZipCar and walking distance to almost any kind of food known to man. But after 20-some years of living the carless urban lifestyle, I had an epiphany. I got panhandled one too many times. The graffiti began jumping at me off the walls. I thought maybe my apetite for potstickers and Thai curry was finally sated, and the gray, dreary winters got to me.

So after some searching, I found what I called then and now "the anti-San Francisco". It's a place of warm, sunny winters where cabs don't exist and people think of public transportation as something that exists only in foreign countries. Once I encountered a panhandler (in a gas station no less) whose efforts were so amateurish I actually couldn't help myself and laughed at him. One other time I saw some graffiti and felt a rush of homesickness. I don't walk because there's no place to walk to except another street like mine and no people visible anywhere. When people here go out to eat, they drive to a place they can gorge on some form of beef.

This place is in Southern Arizona. I took advantage of the panic after 9/11 and bought a home here with almost exactly the same number of square feet as my SF place but I paid about 1/6 what the SF place was worth at the time. Now I go back and forth. I go to SF in late Spring and literally run around gorging on ethnic food for the first couple of weeks I'm there. I walk the city admiring the new highrises going up. Sometimes I sit in a cafe or "on the dock of the bay" and just watch the people (as well as the tide rolling away). Perhaps I go to the opera, a play, a neighborhood full of out gay people. But after a few months, the crowded busses and subway cars start to annoy. I become afraid I might attack the next derelict who asks me for "spare change". I start carrying a cane with which to whack at the next car to clip me as I'm crossing the street. It's time to move to the opposite pole. It's October.

And so I come to Arizona where I can step out the door at night and listen to the coyotes howl in the otherwise absolute silence while looking up to see a million stars in a crystalline sky. I drive to the grocery store every day, just to experience the thrill of pulling into my own garage and being able to put the groceries away within steps rather than having to haul them up 8 floors and through a quarter mile of hallways. There's no cafes, not even a Starbuck's, so I drive to Burger King to read my daily paper and watch some other humans. I can sit there and look at the spectacular mountains out the window.

The point of all this is that there is no perfect lifestyle. Everything about the way you live is a series of choices. You have to find what makes you happy. While for many years the city made me happy, all of a sudden it didn't any more. But I suspected what I needed was simply to get away for a while to let "absence make the heart grow fonder". I found that for me it works. But you'll never know what works for you unless you try it.

Find a way to give Arizona or Florida a try. If you own a condo in New York, don't sell it right away, rent it out. If you have a rent controlled apartment, sublet it. Keep your options to return to New York open for a while, but give the sunbelt a try. You'll never know if it's for you unless you do.

I hated to quote the entire text, but to make my point I had to.

Its called getting older, and maturing.

Yes you can still appreciate these things as you're get older, but your tollarance level changes. You began to long for the peace and quiet of a suburban community. Why? because you are slowing down whether you like it or not. I'm sure you noticed a lot of old people in the city seem very cranky. Yet when you go to a place like Palm Springs, or some something similar. The old folks are full of life and joy, and are usually much more pleasant.

I suspect you're much older than me (42) and I love city life, always have. I moved to the suburbs when I was in my early 20's and it didn't take long for me to realize I couldn't stand them, and I knew it was a big mistake moving there.

Today I live in downtown Long Beach which I happen to love. Yet I'm sometimes long for days of peace, no sirens, no pandhandlers, no crazy people, and no more graffti. I long for the days when I don't have to come out of my building on a Saturday night and see some young punk whos drunk. Who also decides he didn't want to use the bathroom at the club. Guess where I find him pissing on the wall in the ally on my condo building. Yep I long for the green grass and small back yard, and peace from buses running every few mins past you front door.

I noticed that as I'm getting older city life isn't as thrilling to experience as before. Again we naturally began go slow down, no matter how good of shape you're in, which I happened to be. You also start having that feeling of been there done that. Someone 20 years old won't understand this, its all new to them. I know I certainly didn't understand my older relatives how boring the seem to have been. Sometimes the mind wants to, but the body just don't have the get up and go like before.

A 20 year old (many on this forum too) will also argue they will never long for the peace and quiet of the burbs or such. My response is keep living and check back with me in 20-30 years.

No I don't think I would ever want to live in some ugly bland suburb. Yet there are plenty streetcar burbs that have nice walkable downtowns and pleasant scenery that makes it enjoyable to walk. This is in abundant all around southern california, and I wouldn't have any problems living in one of them.

City life is fun, and I'll never give it up entirely. Yet now days I'm more willing to live away from the excitement now that I'm slightly older. Still close enough to the happening spots where I'm within 30 mins to a 1 hour trip via some type of public transportation.

EDIT:

Even after all this is said I don't act like some old person. Actually I'm pretty young in sprit and in looks. Well so I'm told, but then they could be lying to me to make me feel good (lol). I probably do a lot more and in better shape than many people my age. Not too long ago I had to tell a few young girls trying to flirt with me I was old enough to be their father. Anyway my point is even though I do and feel younger than many my age, I still have to be true to myself and admit I feel the age thing, and you do see things differently and naturally began to enjoy peace (there is that word again). I love NYC and live there in a heartbeat if practical, but at the same time I know I would need a place to retreat because I couldn't that that everyday like I would have as a 20 year old.

[ChrisLA]

One thing I want to add.

Highrise living aint all its crack up to be. Its fun for a little while, but you if you really are a true urbanist you will feel disconnected from city life. I lived in one in Chicago for a while. I began to hate it because I couldn't hear the city below, and I hated that feeling of isolation. I didn't like the fact that you couldn't hear the rain, or enjoy looking at the snow right out your window. Many times I wouldn't know it was raining unless it was thundering and lightning, or look down at the ground.

Nope it was not what I thought it would be, too isolated for me. Great views, but thats it.

[Kroy Wen]

I'm sure you noticed a lot of old people in the city seem very cranky. Yet when you go to a place like Palm Springs, or some something similar. The old folks are full of life and joy, and are usually much more pleasant.


LOL! Not true on the "Trail of Tchotchkes", aka NYC to SoFla. It's sunny down there to be sure, but the disposition of the elderly seems quite the reverse compared to those who have stayed in the city and kept on living.

There are many variables to this, of course- but I wouldn't say migration to the sun makes the elderly any more pleasant.

[ChrisLA]

I only use Palm Springs as an example of a laid back less hectic place, than lets say NYC, or LA. These cities and many other big cities can be stressful and again as you age you don't have the same amount of tollerance. A smaller and more quiet setting will certainly take away some of the stress and probably improve your attitude.

[Kroy Wen]

Perhaps it depends on the type of person who stays versus those who bail. Many elderly stay for the very reason they love the vibe- and since they are so engrossed in the history and own businesses, they are often the friendliest people you'll meet in dense cities. They know everyone in the neighborhood and are the main cohesion to the ideal of community.

Highrise living aint all its crack up to be. Its fun for a little while, but you if you really are a true urbanist you will feel disconnected from city life. I lived in one in Chicago for a while. I began to hate it because I couldn't hear the city below, and I hated that feeling of isolation. I didn't like the fact that you couldn't hear the rain, or enjoy looking at the snow right out your window. Many times I wouldn't know it was raining unless it was thundering and lightning, or look down at the ground.

I live in a highrise and my experience is the opposite. Not all highrises are created the same, of course. But I feel much less isolated than when I lived buried on the second floor of a townhouse without any sunlight or neighborly affect.

Every experience is unique.;)

[Taller Better]

You are tempted to give into moving to the 'burbs?!?!? That sounds about as
tempting as going for a swim in the North Atlantic in January. Just turn around, and walk away from the idea, and no one will get hurt. You will regret it if you do!

[miketoronto]

People have to remember living in the city does not mean Hong Kong cramped.
Most city neighbourhods are like small towns with single family homes, and nice walkable urban strips, and are a stones throw from downtown.


Also I hear the complaint about cities being more expensive. There is a reason for that. We have stopped building real "urban cities". So the little we have left are in high demand. Thats why NYC and other cities are so expensive.

We have built so much sprawl, that there is not enough urban areas to meet demand, so what is left is super expensive.

Also about the Asian thing. I know many Asians and they love living back home in their high-density cities. Infact many I use to know here in Toronto have moved back. Yes they left the big suburban house and cars and moved back to high-density Hong Kong. And many Asians here also live in high-rise condos. So I don't think its as cut and dry. Some don't like it, others do.
But many Asians I know have said life in Hong Kong beats the boring suburban lives in Canada.


But anyway. Live in sprawl if you want. I understand the issue that unchecked sprawl is hurting all our cities.
But at the same time, if people are going to complain, then just go move out there. But then don't complain after you move out there. Because then I don't want to hear it.

I know I don't want to live in sprawl. I went to my sisters house the other day(she lives in the inner city) to put up Christmas Lights. And it was just amazing. A nice house, 5min walk from a subway stop. We ran out of extension cords, so we needed another one. No problem, we walked 10min down a vibrant commercial strip that is like a small town main street, and went to the hardware store. Bought the cord, and walked back past butchers, food markets, stores, etc. Was just amazing. And the whole time I was just thinking "this is what we gave up for sprawl".

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

Sprawl is fun. I dont think people take suburbia and sprawl seriously enough as worthy of study or interpreation. But sprawl is where its at, baby.

Here is a fun thread I did over at Urban Ohio on the new sprawl frontier for Dayton, the Austin Road area...which I call Au$tin Road (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3717.0)

The thread takes a sort of Mike Davis-esque/Frankfurt School/Neo Marxist interpretation of whats going on in the area...with a bit of help from the audc website (http://www.audc.org/).

....someone should be doing with Sprawl what OMA does with Density.

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

...and then there is the concept of Edgeless Cities (http://www.brookings.edu/press/books/edgeless_cities.htm)

[LSyd]

stop whining and get your ass out then. if you don't like it, you could probably move back one day.

-

[SuburbanNation]

I found your solution urban politician:

move to Kansas City, St. Louis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Milwaukee etc etc etc (or even Chicago if you head to the right neighborhood). There are alot of urban cities, where you can live a comfortable non-auto oriented life style without paying in blood. And you don't have to live in a high-rise building to do it either. You can easily find medium density mixed use neighborhoods in any of these cities that offer an urban lifestyle with a range of housing options.

I think it's very easy to get caught up in the "I can only live a truly urban lifestyle in NY, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, D.C, etc etc" mentality without looking at the other options available. Similarly, it's easy to get caught up in the "i can only live a truly urban lifestyle in a high rise apartment right in downtown" mentality as well, without considering the medium density urban neighborhoods, or even streetcar suburbs that can offer a conveniently urban lifestyle as well.

thank you!

i lived on the CHEAP in kansas city. my job fortunately was with UMKC, and i routinely went one month without driving my car, and walked to work living in a textbook streetcar suburb. there was a plethora of cultural/dining/etc amenities within walking distance as well. in addition, the MAX efficiently swooped me downtown from a stop two blocks from my apartment.

people are catching on that they can live an urban lifestyle and go out to eat every night, etc, on a very modest income (by east and west coast standards). there is plenty of urbanity in the greater midwest waiting to be resurrected and infilled, and the quality of life balance (especially for the hipster/blue collar working and urban middle class!) is gradually shifting in favor of the urban midwest. living around a bunch of rich people, i would think, would be a bore after the routine scandalous behavior grew stale.

in addition, i dont understand the non-choice of highrise vs. sprawl. maybe this is more of an issue in the south and so-cal, but there are a variety of leafy human scaled urban and sub-urban districts everywhere in the united states. they just happen to be the cheapest in the midwest, by and large.

[CGII]

http://www.sacramento-tma.org/Images/Suburban%20sprawl.jpg

Most depressing pic ever.

[LSyd]

there's plenty of urbanity EVERYWHERE, waiting to be reused or used better.

i live where i live, a downtown high-rise, for two reasons: 1. i'm in the middle of two entertainment districts (with one mini-entertainment district on my block, a couple bars, 2 coffee shops, alternative store, 3 restaurants and an indy movie theatre) and 2. nice view for photography. it's also nice to be able to walk around the city and to see it while running. i have plenty of friends living in streetcar suburbs/neighborhoods nearby (1-2 miles) with lots of space and they're also within walking distance of two entertainment districts (one i'm only in walking distance of if i want a nice hike.) public transportation sucks, but if i need to augment it, that's why i have a car (and to travel to other places when needed.) i go to the suburbs maybe once a week, to see friends there, see a mainstream movie or shop...at local stores and even box outlets.

and again i noticed on this thread an attitude that the midwest/northeast are the only "real" urban areas. get over it. or have you even been outside of your native region except for a family trip to disney world?

there's urbanity everywhere and more people (mainly empty-nesters and younger people like myself) are embracing it.

-

p.s. there's also shitty sprawl everywhere, and plenty of people who love it (they just seem to accept it without question) too.

[SuburbanNation]

and again i noticed on this thread an attitude that the midwest/northeast are the only "real" urban areas. get over it. or have you even been outside of your native region except for a family trip to disney world?

there's urbanity everywhere and more people (mainly empty-nesters and younger people like myself) are embracing it.


i think this stems from the fact that there is so much classic and high quality urbanity waiting to be reused (and now being reused) in the midwest, while stuff that emulates it is being newly built in places like atlanta. that probably stings us midwesterners a little bit, but i embrace urbanity everywhere.

the greater south was also classically anti-urban in the past (with stunning exception), obviously this is changing, but not as quick as us urbanists would like. i also get the impression that a good number of people (certainly not all) from the sun-belt have no idea what is here, and assume it is all some sort of frozen, concrete wasteland, or corn fields.

[BTinSF]

and again i noticed on this thread an attitude that the midwest/northeast are the only "real" urban areas. get over it. or have you even been outside of your native region except for a family trip to disney world?

there's urbanity everywhere and more people (mainly empty-nesters and younger people like myself) are embracing it.


The attitude you detect stems, I think, from the desire of some people here to live carless lives. Having lived in and visited cities other than San Francisco, I can't think of many beyond the ones you mentioned (NYC, SF, Chicago, Boston, maybe DC or Philadelphia or Portland or Seattle or Atlanta) where I'd want to be without a car--or where, if I planned to live without one, I wouldn't have to be pretty selective about where I lived and wouldn't feel kind of restricted.

Let me say a word about this senior thing. I am 61. That doesn't yet qualify for a "senior fare" on SF Muni but I know it's older than dirt to a lot of the folks here. Yes, there's a lot to what was said about losing one's tolerance from obnoxious drunks, graffiti, crazy panhandlers and the rest and losing some ability to enjoy the color and vibrancy of city life. I know that when I was 35, the city seemed to have no downside. Now it clearly does, but that doesn't wipe out the upside. I tried to say above that after 5 or 6 months of absence, I find I am wildly in love with the city again and that's a large part of the reason I go away. But as the months go by when I'm living there, the annoyances begin to grate on me again and eventually I know it's time to get away. Same thing happens in small town southern AZ. At first I love the novelty of wide open spaces, wildlife, endless warm sunny days, a garden full of flowers, Mexico just down the road. But after 5 months or so of all that I am bored and want to be back in the city. They say that "variety is the spice of life". I find for me it's very true.

[the urban politician]

As others have suggested, and as I've known all along, the solution to my problem is very simple:

Chicago (or some of its suburbs)

It's cheaper than coastal cities, has many neighborhoods of varying density, and one does not need to use a car there.

No surprise that I"ve come to this conclusion, at least for those of you who know me. But this reality is becoming increasingly more apparant. It's the only place where I can have my cake, eat it, and not empty out my entire wallet to get it.

[LSyd]

i think this stems from the fact that there is so much classic and high quality urbanity waiting to be reused (and now being reused) in the midwest, while stuff that emulates it is being newly built in places like atlanta. that probably stings us midwesterners a little bit, but i embrace urbanity everywhere.

the greater south was also classically anti-urban in the past (with stunning exception), obviously this is changing, but not as quick as us urbanists would like. i also get the impression that people from the sun-belt have no idea what is here, and assume it is all some sort of frozen, concrete wasteland.

"anti-urban," probably, but not without urban centers of varying sizes, which are now in varying states of intact urbanity and reuse.

i wouldn't say that the new stuff really emulates classic high quality urbanity, but i guess that's a compliment (maybe.) it's great that it's being built again, and it's not just in places like Atlanta and Charlotte...although i prefer original or conversted stock, and that's out there too.

-

[LSyd]

i drive my car so rarely and such a short distance (except for trips to other cities, which are about 2 or 3 a month) that it doesn't bug me at all the few times i use it. it's a nearly-carless lifestyle, heh.

-

[SuburbanNation]

.

[the urban politician]

WHile we're posting pics of suburbia:

http://www.mexicanpictures.com/headingeast/images/serioussuberbia.jpg

[scribeman]

People in asia would live in sprawl if they could. America's a sparsely populated country.

Sprawl happens.
Yes, but a lot of people (who may or may not post on certain messageboards dedicated to tall buildings) live in "big cities" and think of the suburbanites as evil doers up to no good.
I agree. Sprawl happens. The problem is that it typically doesn't have public trans and it's so damn hard to get rid of.
Someone else here posted about the rapid consumerism and disposability of land. Pictures like the one above this post are like that, those gigantic communities of million dollar homes that last two years with terrible plumbing and broken sewers. We have a lot of them here in MI.

[JManc]

i drove my truck to my mailbox and back and i like it.

[staff]

You want density? World class public transportation? Good urban planning? Sophisticated people? Good food? Good beer?

Move to Europe. ;)

[JManc]

You want density? World class public transportation? Good urban planning? Sophisticated people? Good food? Good beer?

Move to Europe. ;)

says the guy who left europe for china! :D

[aion26]

right ... because the EU is just handing out work visas to Yanks like candy.:rolleyes:

[the urban politician]

^ Europe's overpriced. Might as well stay in Manhattan

[staff]

says the guy who left europe for china! :D
Well, I don't want any of what I wrote above. :D

the urban politician,
Prices are higher, but salaries are too. :)

[JManc]

if you land a job in europe first, is it easy to get a work permit?

[staff]

^^
To be honest, I have no idea.
I guess it differs from country to country within the EU (?).

[miketoronto]

Lets just remember that cities have all different kinds of areas. You can lead a quiet life in a city also.

Anyway variety is the key.

But I do know sprawl is not for me. Older suburbs I don't have a problem with. But the new suburbs really do nothing for me and just depress me.

[pdxtex]

while im generally more pro-urban than suburban, i think another point which needs to be made is that not all sprawl was created equally. there are many suburban environments which are transit friendly and one can live a fairly non auto-centric life. suburban chicago, toronto, boston, for example. try living a car free existence in suburban detroit, phoenix, vegas, and you might be in for a different scene. like alot of people have already said, there are many shades of grey between the applebee's life and the downtown one.

[Marcu]

while im generally more pro-urban than suburban, i think another point which needs to be made is that not all sprawl was created equally. there are many suburban environments which are transit friendly and one can live a fairly non auto-centric life. suburban chicago, toronto, boston, for example. try living a car free existence in suburban detroit, phoenix, vegas, and you might be in for a different scene. like alot of people have already said, there are many shades of grey between the applebee's life and the downtown one.

I definetly agree. Suburban Chicago seems to encompass both of these. There are surburbs with their own city centers built around Metra (commuter rail) stops. Some are old railroad stop towns others just had a city-wide effort to build a city core. At the same time, there are tons of burbs that are non-stop strip malls.

[LSyd]

You want density? World class public transportation? Good urban planning? Sophisticated people? Good food? Good beer?

Move to Europe. ;)

or you've got New Orleans...pre-Katrina, at least. and future New Orleans. :cheers:

-

[miketoronto]

I definetly agree. Suburban Chicago seems to encompass both of these. There are surburbs with their own city centers built around Metra (commuter rail) stops. Some are old railroad stop towns others just had a city-wide effort to build a city core. At the same time, there are tons of burbs that are non-stop strip malls.

I don't think people on here are against those kinds of suburbs or consider that sprawl.

[Steely Dan]

I definetly agree. Suburban Chicago seems to encompass both of these. There are surburbs with their own city centers built around Metra (commuter rail) stops. Some are old railroad stop towns others just had a city-wide effort to build a city core. At the same time, there are tons of burbs that are non-stop strip malls.

yep. once again, some people in this thread are confusing auto-dominated post-war sprawl with the word "suburban". they are not the same thing. to help alleviate this confusion, i have coined some new words that clearly demarcate the two different suburban realms of our country, and yes, even within this dichotomy there are still tons of shades of gray.

so anyway, here are the two new words that will help alleviate confusion:


"euburbia" - a suburban area founded upon the principles of human settlement that have been in place since the dawn of civilization wherein an individual still has the option to navigate their environment through the use of their own two feet. see royal oak, MI & evanston, IL

"malburbia" - a new type of suburbia founded in the latter half of the 20th century in which all navigation through the environment must be done with an automobile, making no practical accomodation for the pedestrian. see troy, MI & schaumburg, IL.




also keep in mind that a given suburb may not fit entirely into one category or another. naperville, IL, for example, is home to both euburban and malburban areas.

[James Bond Agent 007]

^
How about "pedburbia" vs "autoburbia?"

:D

[Buckeye Native 001]

I like Bond's words better. :shrug:

[rockyi]

I dunno, "pedburbia" sounds like the type of place Michael Jackson might hang out at.

[James Bond Agent 007]

^
OK then how about "footubrbia"? :D

[rockyi]

You want density? World class public transportation? Good urban planning? Sophisticated people? Good food? Good beer?

Move to Europe. ;)

I've said it once and I'll say it again - Staff, you're such a....staff.:rolleyes:

[mikeelm]

This is getting tiring.

I want transit, good urban planning, and better land use just like the rest of you.

But I feel like I'm 500 years ahead of the rest of this country on this one (USA, that is). There doesn't seem to be any significant "catching up" going on in the forseeable future. I preach to my friends, visit websites, join organizations, etc etc etc but to seemingly no avail. Just look at our leaders--their balls are in a steel cage, and special interests hold the key. Look at the American people--they've been asleep for as long as any of us can remember.

I'm tempted to just stop caring. Why not let them build those super-centers with parking oceans; let them build mega-highways meant to carry a million 10-ton vehicles. How about hopping into our cars, going to the mall, sipping some sugary mochas topped with whipped cream, getting some drive-thru cheeseburgers, and calling it a day. Why not just enjoy it?

After all, what's the point of caring with such an unresponsive public realm?
That's fine with me. I will agree on one level that one can take it building and developing new places and roads too far but it's also wrong for 1 to expect the rest of the world to change their lifestyles just because you don't approve of it.

[satsuchan]

Not necessarily so. The thing that most impressed me when I briefly lived in Japan in the 1970's, was that there was so much unspoiled open space, much of it within an hour or two of Tokyo by train, and I attributed it to the fact that, aside from farmers and village folk, most people lived in cities and there was almost nothing resembling an American suburb. Perhaps it has changed. Perhaps they have adopted our ways. But as recently as 30 years ago they had not and it made it possible to have a country the size of Califonria with a population 5 times as great and still have places to get away from people and see nature as it had been for millenia. Believe me, I thought then and I think now that retaining that unspoiled scenery in spite of ever-increasing population was and is worth what sacrifices it requires.

I live in Japan now, and there are tradeoffs to what you describe. It is still the case that within (now two) hours of Tokyo, there is open space, fields and forests. But Japan has suburbanized quite a bit in the last generation - albeit with an concomitant investment in mass transit that makes the US look like a developing country. Some urban centers have suffered because of it, but most have prospered. Families live in the suburbs, the young and old live in the city. Not so different from the US.

One of the challenges in Japan, for this American at least, is the high cost of rent and the very, very tiny living spaces - not so different from what one would find in NYC or SF. I live in Sapporo, 3 blocks from a subway stop and a 30 minute walk from the main shopping district - and pay about $450/month for a 320sq ft apartment - very tiny. However, 10 blocks to the east, rents are cheaper because transit options are few. You pay for proximity - which Im happy to do because Sapporo averages 15 feet of snow every winter.

But suburbs and cities are quite dense here because about 75% of Japan is mountains - and has one of the highest percentages of forested land in the world (60%+). I think given the choice, Japanese would sprawl out just as much as Americans and Canadians - it just isnt physically possible here.

[BnaBreaker]

That's fine with me. I will agree on one level that one can take it building and developing new places and roads too far but it's also wrong for 1 to expect the rest of the world to change their lifestyles just because you don't approve of it.

It's pretty ridiculous to assume that a switch from cul-de-sacs to an inter-connected grid would require any 'change in lifestyle'.

[staff]

LSyd,
Very true. :)

rockyi,
Yep - everything I say and do on these forums is part of my evil "anti-NA hysteria" (as you (?) once put it) -plan. ;)

[LouReed]

Japan doesn't equal Asia people.

Asia is the world's largest, most culturally and racially diverse continent here.

The Chinese are into suburbs, although alot of them enjoy the urban life too. Japan, Taiwan, HK, Korea can't sprawl because of land constraints.

[skylife]

This is getting tiring.

I want transit, good urban planning, and better land use just like the rest of you.

But I feel like I'm 500 years ahead of the rest of this country on this one (USA, that is). There doesn't seem to be any significant "catching up" going on in the forseeable future. I preach to my friends, visit websites, join organizations, etc etc etc but to seemingly no avail. Just look at our leaders--their balls are in a steel cage, and special interests hold the key. Look at the American people--they've been asleep for as long as any of us can remember.

I'm tempted to just stop caring. Why not let them build those super-centers with parking oceans; let them build mega-highways meant to carry a million 10-ton vehicles. How about hopping into our cars, going to the mall, sipping some sugary mochas topped with whipped cream, getting some drive-thru cheeseburgers, and calling it a day. Why not just enjoy it?

After all, what's the point of caring with such an unresponsive public realm?

Or you could just live in a city with the qualities you are looking for and not obsess about how other people you don't even know choose to live. It's very easy to live in the US and not see sprawl everyday.

[Crawford]

Well, I don't want any of what I wrote above. :D

the urban politician,
Prices are higher, but salaries are too. :)

No way salaries are higher, at least not for professionals. Compare median salaries for bankers, lawyers, consultants, doctors, etc.

In NYC, including bonus you make 150-175K your first year out of law school and possibly twice that first year out of business school. This assumes you are at a major law firm, or working for a bulge bracket Investment Bank.

[J. Will]

"North American streetcar suburbs provide the best of both worlds "

The ironic thing is in most cities "streetcar suburbs" don't even have streetcars anymore. You are often relegated to the city bus, which I dislike almost as much as any exurbanite despite the fact that I am entirely transit-dependent.

[Owlhorn]

The pretty lady I'm seeing says that if we're to marry, she's not moving into any plain old house. She grew up in a streetcar burb of Dallas, with beautiful homes from the 20s. Each is unique and built on very skinny lots. She doesn't want to do a condo, but I could easily accept what she wants. She hates grass, LOL. I personally don't care for the sprawl nor do I hate it anymore.

Things I do hate:

- Dallas suburban march towards the Red River. I'd support sprawl in the south of the metro if it could keep the metroplex more balanced. Everyday something further north is announced. Its ridiculous and quite frankly strange. Some could say racist(the Dallas 'blackburbs' are all south, coincidence)

- Big SUVs. Can't see around them. They take and eat a ridiculous amount of gas, they cause traffic because they slowly change lanes and turn and break slowly. They cause roll over and run over accidents. It really eeks me to see families of small kids in them. Are kids that big now? We used to ride in a station wagon(all 4 of us) and easily fit. I also hate to hear how we're not being safe if we don't get a friggin' tank.

[Chicago103]

This is an interesting thread, and the star wars references caused me to ROFLMAO :haha:!

I am sure many of you feel that this thread wouldnt be complete without some commentary from me (j/k), I will try to live up to expectations ;).

There are a few things I would like to address. For one I would like to talk about BTinSF's and a few other people's comments about age and preferences. I do think there is some truth in what you say but I still think it is BS to label the city as being only good for people of certain age groups. I know I am using a personal example again but my 89 year old grandmother has lived within Chicago city limits for her entire life, born there raised there, raised a family there, retired and grew old there. Granted she always lived in either a two flat or house and now she lives in an outer city neighborhood with bungalows that many would label as being like street car suburbia. The point is that she seems pretty happy to me, sometimes she talks about the peace and quiet of living in the suburbs where my parents live but I know if she moved out there she would miss the conviniences of everyting being so close in her neighborhood. Her neighborhood is an example of not how all city neighborhoods are the same, drunken, loud and partying young people are not common, pandhandlers are very rare, its not that crowded, etc. Her life is about as far from the young, single, party life associated with city living and yet her lifestyle is very urban.

I suppose the only point I am trying to make is that everyone is different and we tend to look at the urban experience through our own lenses, if for you the urban lifestyle has always been that of a young person's lifestyle and you encounter certain negatives in your neighborhood you associate that with an urban existence but in reality just a few miles away still in the city things can be very different. Also, everyone is different, there are young people that like the city and young people that dont and there are old people that like living in the city and those that dont. I awknowledge that some things about my lifestyle preferences will change as I get older but whatever my preferences will be I would want to experience it in a cohesive human oriented built environment. Also I have always assocaited auto-centrism with a fast paced lifestyle, so if I am slowing down so to speak the last thing I would want would be to drive in traffic everywhere, a peacefull walk in the neighborhood to the corner drug store or grocer is much more slow pace to me than driving in traffic to a Wal-Mart supercenter, finding a parking space, walking across a crowded parking lot, and walking and waiting in a busy crowded store.

Also people have also mentioned the desire to live in a more natural environment with mountains, the coyote or whatever in Arizona. Well guess what in Chicago alot of the sprawl is built upon flat farmland so there isnt much breathtaking natural scenery and to the extent that there is beauty in flat cornfields that is being destroyed by building more sprawl, so whatever quaintness that was once there in that formerly small town is now gone becuase of you and people like you. The only way to truly live that slower paced lifestyle would be to buy an old house in the center of that small town, patronize the main street as much as possible and pray that the place doesnt get sprawled up being recognition. Otherwise desiring peace and quiet is a moot point.

Me, if I want nature I would build a cabin way way in the middle of the woods or up in the mountains, not in a subdivision or near retail or development any kind, and my cabin would be a log cabin in tune with the environment and not a faux Versaille or Biltmore McMansion/McLodge or McCabin or I would live in a quaint small village or town where there is a clear demarkation between the edge of town and the country and/or wilderness. There is alot of that to be found in Europe and elswhere in the world but it unfortuantly is alot rarer in this country. Thats my beef with sprawl, its even half assed at doing what it claims to do best and just encorporates some of the worst aspects of urban life (traffic, congestion) with little of the true positive aspects of rural life (nature, human scaled and slow paced).

The problem is that many americans and canadians dont even know what neither true urban nor true rural life is anymore. People either want city lite (and by lite I mean lite in all the wrong reasons) or rural lite (again lite in all the wrong ways), sure I appreciate shades of grey, I am not saying that people either live on the 91st floor or in a log cabin but for God sakes dont fuck it up by adding in auto-centric sprawl which is the bane of every other way of life from ultra-urban to ultra-rural IMO. Midtown Manhattan and a cornfield are about as different as can be but at leas they are both unique in their own ways whereas sprawl tends to homogonize everything, hence thats why I compare it to the borg :borg:.

I understand theurbanpolitician's plight in starting this thread, I just hope he moves to Chicago or finds some place that satisfies his needs. However you should never be discouraged by high costs or anything and give into sprawl, there is always another way out, regardless of what they tell you sprawl is not the answer to your problems just because your current circumstance is not ideal, there is more than just option A and option B. If you choose the quick and easy path forever will it dominate your destiny.

http://www.wiu.edu/users/mudjs1/Aid2.jpg
For over a thousand generations people lived in cities and in the countryside, the guardians of human scaled environments, before the dark times before the sprawl.

[NEWNANGuy]

you can come be my roommate in Newnan :) lol

[EtherealMist]

As others have suggested, and as I've known all along, the solution to my problem is very simple:

Chicago (or some of its suburbs)

It's cheaper than coastal cities, has many neighborhoods of varying density, and one does not need to use a car there.

No surprise that I"ve come to this conclusion, at least for those of you who know me. But this reality is becoming increasingly more apparant. It's the only place where I can have my cake, eat it, and not empty out my entire wallet to get it.

what about the outter boroughs?

[Chicago103]

what about the outter boroughs?

I think he said he looked in Queens or something and couldnt find much of a respite from high prices, granted that was probably inner Queens and he could look further away from Manhattan or move to Staten Island but at that point he would start to lose alot of urbanity, however that would still be light years ahead of sprawl. The dilemma he has is how much urbanity is he willing to give up for cost savings and since he values urbanity very highly he either has to move to a less urban part of NYC or he should move to another city like Chicago. In either case he doesnt have to live in sprawl to save money regardless of what people tell him. His opening post about indulging in sprawl was more about venting about the pathetic situation in this country than anything else though.

[the urban politician]

^ Thanks for your input, 103 :cool:

[rockyi]

rockyi,
Yep - everything I say and do on these forums is part of my evil "anti-NA hysteria" (as you (?) once put it) -plan. ;)

Nope, I didn't say that, I said something more like......"Oh that adorable Staff and his quaint, charming Euro-Snobbery" :D

[FREKI]

I wouldn't dream of moving to the suburbs of Copenhagen... but if I was living in North America I think that the suburb would fit me fine..

A nice house with a pool in Vegas.. and high income job as some kind of high ranking Casino security thingy..... that would be okay...

[SuburbanNation]

I wouldn't dream of moving to the suburbs of Copenhagen... but if I was living in North America I think that the suburb would fit me fine..

A nice house with a pool in Vegas.. and high income job as some kind of high ranking Casino security thingy..... that would be okay...

interesting. i guess you have to grow up in north american sprawl at its worst to truly "appreciate" it.

[Chicago Shawn]

interesting. i guess you have to grow up in north american sprawl at its worst to truly "appreciate" it.

Yup, I certinally did, I will never go back to post war suburban or exurban living agian. A recent trip out that way for Thanksgiving has further confimed there is no place for me there, and it looks even uglier every time I pass through. For the love of god, Vinyl sidding can be died using any color of the rainbow but why, why, why do developers usually only use a rotating palate of three bland tones: white, off-white and baby shit brown. All of this vinyl frontier consumes more of the world's most productive farmland and replaces it with this spread out, bland mix of plastic subdivisons, surface parking, oversized and over extended roads and infrastructure sucking money away from the city and the real rural areas in need of improvements. Has anyone wondered why more agricultural production is being outsourced to Brazil every year? And yet some people have the gall to say Brazil should stop leveling the virgin rainforests and grassland, when thier exurban house on the vinyl frontier is partly to blame for it.

I know you TUP, and that is no environment for you.

You already know what the answer is. Some of the pre-war railroad suburbs are doing great things with thier downtowns if you come to desire a human scaled hybrid mix.

[James Bond Agent 007]

I wouldn't dream of moving to the suburbs of Copenhagen... but if I was living in North America I think that the suburb would fit me fine..

A nice house with a pool in Vegas.. and high income job as some kind of high ranking Casino security thingy..... that would be okay...
It's all yours!

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/5144/veg238vv.jpg

[staff]

Oh, god. :rolleyes:

[rockyi]

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/5144/veg238vv.jpg

Wow.....just look at all of the "green" space and elbow room. :uhh:

[LordMandeep]

nicley maintained streets though....

HAHA!

[James Bond Agent 007]

Wow.....just look at all of the "green" space and elbow room. :uhh:
Yeah, but at least it's pretty dense. So quit your complain' :poke:

[danvillain]

^ pretty dense and entirely automobile-oriented. paradise.

[DaveofCali]

Who said you can't you have both?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/DaveofCali/misc/westwoodblvdaerial1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/DaveofCali/misc/studiocityaerial1.jpg

[urbanflyer]

"North American streetcar suburbs provide the best of both worlds "

To each their own. I quite like the suburbia over here...

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/65072111/original.jpg

[JManc]

yeah, japanese suburbs are pretty cool


http://www.pbase.com/mancusoj/image/34381761.jpg

[Cory]

Who said you can't you have both?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/DaveofCali/misc/westwoodblvdaerial1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/DaveofCali/misc/studiocityaerial1.jpg

I'm sure those places are just as expensve.

[urbanflyer]

but if you must, you can pick up one of these for about $215K

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/61464665/large.jpg

[VivaLFuego]

Who said you can't you have both?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/DaveofCali/misc/westwoodblvdaerial1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/DaveofCali/misc/studiocityaerial1.jpg

These areas are pretty decent.....There's mile after mile of development like this in Chicago (the "bungalow belt") and similar development in streetcar suburbs like Oak Park. The problem is, it's high-density enough to still have a traffic nightmare on weekends, but just a bit too low-density to really support any transit other than commuter rail without heavy subsidization. There's not great pedestrian activity since most people still would need to walk more than 1/2 mile to get to their destination, so they drive (unless they're going downtown, in which case transit is fine). But since it's somewhat dense, that's enough people driving that it's a traffic nightmare: Ask anyone who tries to drive on Chicago's North, Northwest, or Southwest sides on the weekends or during weekday rush periods. It's kind of an awkward density, 10,000-15,000 ppsm: High enough that you get bad traffic need some transit, but low-enough that it can't support much vibrant street retail or any transit other than commuter service sans heavy subsidization.

My point being, I'm going against the conventional wisdom of this thread and saying that this is a bad middle ground, and optimum densities would either be much higher (city) to encourage almost entirely ped- and transit- activity, or somewhat lower (suburbs) to allow for decent traffic levels for auto trips, with commuter rail service for downtown work trips.

[staff]

Looks pretty much exactly as the suburbs back home (without the overground powerlines).

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/65072111/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/mancusoj/image/34381761.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/cityflyer/image/61464665/large.jpg

[DeadManWalking]

Some people probably would consider my neighborhood sprawl compared to places like NYC and Hong Kong.