PHILADELPHIA | 1919 Market | NEVER BUILT

[CondoGuru]

Hey guys, rumor has it that this thing is back on as a much-scaled down rental tower with more retail space and a garage open to the public. I'm hearing rumblings of roughly 15 or 20 stories total. Stay tuned.

[SJPhillyBoy]

I don't think this prime location is worthy of a scaled down anything. I hope it is not on if that is the case.

[omp835]

Kinda premature for a thread, don't you think?

[CondoGuru]

Allow me to make a slight correction. Not a rumor, but a fact... directly from an Opus East executive directly involved in the project. And as I said before, stay tuned. But if you feel it's premature to start a thread on this exciting new development, then DON'T COME HERE.

[volguus zildrohar]

Generally construction threads are started when a project begins. However, after this month's Philadelphia Magazine update on last year's Condo Revolution article, there seems to be life in 1919 after all but I'm very disappointed at such a low-aiming building in such a location.

Guru, when the figures come out would you be so good as to put it all in the first post of the thread a la the other construction threads so folks know what's up?

[CondoGuru]

You got it man.

[McBane]

no fucking way! you got to be kidding me. for those of us who've are willing to wait for philly's first 1000 footer, 19th and market is the perfect site for a supertall (or at least anything over 500 ft). now we get word of 20 or so floors? please no! there are dozens of other locations better suited including accross the street from the murano.

if built a more suitable plot continues to rot as a surface lot while the perfect location for a supertall is wasted - wasted on a crappy midrise rental building.

but who here can be surprised? market and jfk west of broad are pretty much the only streets in the city where a developer can come in and build a highrise without fear of community opposition. the nimby's are forcing smaller towers better suited for walnut, chestnut, etc. into our business district.

i've never been so against a building before.

[Swinefeld]

I'm going to have to go NIMBY on this one. If this is true, what a disappointment. I'd rather they tear down the AAA building and build there.

[TechTalkGuy]

Philadelphia has so much potential for more sky towers.

Why oh why can't the developers realize that Market East is the prime location for high rise condos (with all the retail in that corridor).

I mean, just look at Manhattan with all those 50+ story skyscraping condos.

As for Philly's first 1000+ foot tower, I agree that 1919 is a prime real estate location that should not be underestimated.

[Eigenwelt]

Agreed. Waste of space. I'm probally nimby for underdevelopment reasons.

[We Got Five]

I beleive we've had this discussion many times before...1919 Market is not a large enough peice of land to support to 1000' structure. Now...there are multiple lots close in proximity that could...

15-20 stories of rental, retail etc. would be ideal for Olde City, or Rittenhouse Square. I would agree with everyone's assessment that this project (especially being in the heart of the business sector) is terribly out of place. I had a hard time with the earlier project, but this is going in the wrong direction. We're just being reasonable aren't we?

[GarCastle]

How about 20 floors with a public observation deck on top? /grin

[Eigenwelt]

The 1919 plot is more then big enough to support a thousand foot tower. Not that I support building one there, but it's definately big enough. It would be a slender tower but nothing too out of the ordinary.

[McBane]

if more space was needed for a 1000 footer, isn't there a parking lot between 1919 and one of those shoddy apartment buildings on jfk? if i am thinking correctly, the parking lot belongs to the apartment building (i think its the william penn something) but surely something could be worked out. another certain spot is our favorite disney hole in the wall site and the girard site.

it's funny how you have all these barnes towers and such infuriating residents for proposing buildings "out of scale with the neighborhood". well 1919 is out of scale too. maybe we could trade - build the barnes tower on 19th and market and 1919 at the best western. wish life was that simple.

[SouthPhilly]

I beleive we've had this discussion many times before...1919 Market is not a large enough peice of land to support to 1000' structure. Now...there are multiple lots close in proximity that could...

The space is large enough for the tower, but there wouldn’t be any space around it for preparation area. Comcast has the future JFK Plaza to prepare and store materials, this property you would keep more off site.

The proper height for this lot is something that is just as tall as its neighbors or maybe a bit taller, so it will create wall effect when you look down west market. I think a more appropriate place for a taller skyscraper is west of Comcast or Market East. Everyone talks about gaps, how seat would it be if City hall was out gap, dead center.

[Late1]

I thought 38 stories was underwhelming, but building a 15 or 20 story tower on this site would be simply appalling. Dopus should be *adding* 15-20 stories to their 38-story proposal.

[Cro Burnham]

I'm not worried about this.

Several weeks ago I heard from a source, can't say how reliable, that Opus was just going to flip . . . to another flipper. Whether or not this comes to pass, I believe that flipping has been and remains the intention. Just flips or more marketing tactics to facilitate a flip.

No building, short or tall, anytime soon, that's my prediction.

[omp835]

But if you feel it's premature to start a thread on this exciting new development, then DON'T COME HERE.
Hey man, no reason to shout. I'm just worried about you jinxing this turd project by starting a construction thread months before there's any chance of an official
ground breaking let alone an actual shovel in the ground. You don't even have any renderings yet but you're confident it's going to get,or already has gotten, the green light. Good luck with that.:rolleyes:

[McBane]

GOOD! JINX IT! I HOPE IT DOESN'T EVEN GET TO THE POINT OF A RENDERING! this proposal, along with the 3 story AAA building and the 5 story stock exchange building are a disgrace to our business district. this is the cbd of a major city not conshohocken or a business park in KoP.

[JMininger]

The space is large enough for the tower, but there wouldn’t be any space around it for preparation area. Comcast has the future JFK Plaza to prepare and store materials, this property you would keep more off site.

The proper height for this lot is something that is just as tall as its neighbors or maybe a bit taller, so it will create wall effect when you look down west market. I think a more appropriate place for a taller skyscraper is west of Comcast or Market East. Everyone talks about gaps, how seat would it be if City hall was out gap, dead center.


Check out the tiny footprint and preparation area for the 1,047' Waterview Tower in Chicago. It can be done.

[sciguy0504]

I agree this space should be used for a much taller and important building/development. There are other areas in the city that could use this tower at its former and apparently new height. The site of the porn theatre across from the Murano would be ideal, IMO.

[SJPhillyBoy]

I don't even think this building is worthy of replacing the porn theartre.

[bryson662001]

The 20 story plus garage Penn Center Inn that used to be on this lot.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/bryson662001/IMG_0234.jpg

[CondoGuru]

Hey man, no reason to shout. I'm just worried about you jinxing this turd project by starting a construction thread months before there's any chance of an official
ground breaking let alone an actual shovel in the ground. You don't even have any renderings yet but you're confident it's going to get,or already has gotten, the green light. Good luck with that.:rolleyes:

Being that you feel 1919 is a "terd" of a project, you might be disappointed to know that I only post information I receive from the "horse's mouth" and have been dead-on with every word of it. Sorry.

[SJPhillyBoy]

So it is really happening? When is construction scheduled to start?

[SouthPhilly]

Being that you feel 1919 is a "terd" of a project, you might be disappointed to know that I only post information I receive from the "horse's mouth" and have been dead-on with every word of it. Sorry.

That basically sums it up, everything you have posted has been false and continuously rude. This thread is completely flawed

[CondoGuru]

That basically sums it up, everything you have posted has been false and continuously rude. This thread is completely flawed

False and continuously rude? Like 1441 being cancelled, MarinaView being cancelled and SouthBridge becoming a rental? All before the news became public? Yeah, my sources are full of crap. Oh wait a minute, all that was true! I also seem to remember getting into numerous debates with a bunch of idiots claiming Murano wasn't going ahead either. Guess who was right? Don't be angry with me just because you're not informed or know anyone who is...I'm not a shrink and I'm not here to massage your ego.

[cactus22minus1]

...I'm not a shrink and I'm not here to massage your ego.Maybe not, but definitely your own. I don't know anything about the condo market in Philly so I can't say if you're right or wrong, but your username and attitude say alot about you.

[CondoGuru]

How about that? My sources were right once again. Check out Opus' website for the info I posted several months ago you ungrateful terds...

"Opus East recently received their approvals for 1919 Market Street, a property that consists of approximately one acre of land at the northeast corner of 20th and Market Streets in Center City, Philadelphia. The 14-story building is planned to contain 257 multi-family apartments, with an average unit size of 1,060 square-feet, as well as 16,530 square-feet of retail space on the first floor, and a 168-car public garage. The building is scheduled for completion in the second quarter of 2009."

[BigDan35]

How about that? My sources were right once again. Check out Opus' website for the info I posted several months ago you ungrateful terds...

"Opus East recently received their approvals for 1919 Market Street, a property that consists of approximately one acre of land at the northeast corner of 20th and Market Streets in Center City, Philadelphia. The 14-story building is planned to contain 257 multi-family apartments, with an average unit size of 1,060 square-feet, as well as 16,530 square-feet of retail space on the first floor, and a 168-car public garage. The building is scheduled for completion in the second quarter of 2009."

You are making an ass of yourself. You sound arrogant and ignorant as hell with all your "I told you so!!!" posts.

[CondoGuru]

You are making an ass of yourself. You sound arrogant and ignorant as hell with all your "I told you so!!!" posts.

maybe arrogant, but obviously not ignorant. . When I'm accused of posting false information that I know to be true, I defend my sources...that's where it started. You can accuse me of arrogance, but the facts, and only the facts support my posts. :)

[SJPhillyBoy]

You are probably right that Opus will eventually build something there, but I have to question the release from them that you posted as being accurate.

The St. James tower at a height of 498 ft and 45 floors has 306 luxury units. So rough estimate, the St. James would have 7 units per floor.
In the release you posted, the Opus building is a 14-story building and is planned to contain 257 multi-family apartments, with an average unit size of 1,060 square-feet.
That would be 19 units per floor, plus they are going to jam in parking and retail somewhere. I have to question this release at least of not being accurate. That is jamming allot of units per floor on the footprint of that lot.

Also, as I have been saying, it would be a travesty to build anything shorter than 45 floors at that location, right in the middle of all of the tallest buildings in the city, in the central business district.

[CondoGuru]

You are probably right that Opus will eventually build something there, but I have to question the release from them that you posted as being accurate.

The St. James tower at a height of 498 ft and 45 floors has 306 luxury units. So rough estimate, the St. James would have 7 units per floor.
In the release you posted, the Opus building is a 14-story building and is planned to contain 257 multi-family apartments, with an average unit size of 1,060 square-feet.
That would be 19 units per floor, plus they are going to jam in parking and retail somewhere. I have to question this release at least of not being accurate. That is jamming allot of units per floor on the footprint of that lot.

Also, as I have been saying, it would be a travesty to build anything shorter than 45 floors at that location, right in the middle of all of the tallest buildings in the city, in the central business district.

I agree. It seems as though they inserted their condo plans into the press release without bothering to offer a reconfigured plan for this new rental. If they were smart, they would move ahead with the originally planned 39-level building as a rental to give the St. James some more competition. But construction costs only ever rise, so it's possible that a shorter, 12 to 18 month construction schedule for a midrise makes more sense for them numbers wise, as opposed to the usual 24 to 28 month schedule required to complete a 40-plus monster. But the info I received prior to the release on their website was directly from an Opus official, so we'll have to see what happens next.

[gbayard]

What happened to innovation? Maybe we shouldn't build the way we did 50 years ago. Poured in place concrete is old news! It's clearly too expensive, so let's move on. The rise in craft labor costs are as much to blame for the current imbalance as materials and energy.

[CondoGuru]

Here is a link to an article supporting the information I was given earlier this year regarding Opus' development of an apartment building at 1919 Market.

http://philadelphia.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2007/05/28/story2.html?b=1180324800^1467255


Considering how much crap I got from some folks here over the validity of my sources, let me just say that I am in no way a fan of this new plan either. I also believe that it's a complete waste of that parcel and not at all in line with the surrounding buildings' heights. Nonetheless, they are moving forward with this newly revised plan.

[GarCastle]

Regardless of the lame height, it will still add some retail to that end of Market. Maybe it will have an observation deck! And an 860' spire on top! :^)

Seriously though the retail will help that area as will having that many apartments instead of just office space. At least it was hit one less time with the ugly stick than that building that Trader Joe's is in (I don't even want to know its name lol).

[skellergroup]

Is there any activity going on at this site?
I ran by the other day and it looks like part of the fence was missing.

Anybody hear anything?

[Chazly7]

This project is a tragedy....

[Pennsgrant]

Is there any activity going on at this site?
I ran by the other day and it looks like part of the fence was missing.

Anybody hear anything?

It doesn't look like anything else is going to get off the ground in the near future. Maybe Dranoff with 777 Broad St but I'd be amazed if anything else goes up in the next year or so , in this climate.

[SJPhillyBoy]

Shouldn't this one have started construction by now? It was supposed to start in the summer. I don't see any activity on site.

[bryson662001]

Shouldn't this one have started construction by now? It was supposed to start in the summer. I don't see any activity on site.



We are still waiting to see what the "horse" says.

I only post information I receive from the "horse's mouth" and have been dead-on with every word of it. Sorry.

[SJPhillyBoy]

We are still waiting to see what the "horse" says.
Out of what, the horse's mouth or the horse's @ss?

[CondoGuru]

We are still waiting to see what the "horse" says.

The "horse's mouth" is no longer with Opus East...I have heard nothing new about this one, which is strange. I've heard of plenty of cancelled projects shopping other developers to flip the land and plans, except this one. However, I have heard that Mahoney is planning to move forward with 1441 Chestnut and it will NOT be a garage! Thank G-d!

[BigDan35]

The "horse's mouth" is no longer with Opus East...I have heard nothing new about this one, which is strange. I've heard of plenty of cancelled projects shopping other developers to flip the land and plans, except this one. However, I have heard that Mahoney is planning to move forward with 1441 Chestnut and it will NOT be a garage! Thank G-d!

Is 1441 Chestnut a 58 story proposal? Or am I mixing it up with something different?

[CondoGuru]

Is 1441 Chestnut a 58 story proposal? Or am I mixing it up with something different?

That was the original proposal which I believe is what sparked the intense bickering and litigation between AG and Mahoney. They are in the planning phases of configuring a new proposal. I know as much as you do about what that will be.

[BigDan35]

That was the original proposal which I believe is what sparked the intense bickering and litigation between AG and Mahoney. They are in the planning phases of configuring a new proposal. I know as much as you do about what that will be.

Probably much more scaled down huh? :(

[CondoGuru]

I really couldn't say one way or the other at this point. I'm just relieved that it won't be that stupid 10-storey garage he tried to push through.

[skyscraper]

We are still waiting to see what the "horse" says.

the horse says...."neeeeiiiigghhhhhh"!
(not saying that they are not going ahead with this, just quoting my 2-year-old daughter's pullstring toy.)

[bryson662001]

Thanks skyscraper. You made me laugh so hard I almost lost my dinner......in both directions!

[Late1]

That was the original proposal which I believe is what sparked the intense bickering and litigation between AG and Mahoney. They are in the planning phases of configuring a new proposal. I know as much as you do about what that will be.

I have no insider knowledge either, but according to the press, but what was proposed when the fight started was the 1441 Chestnut plan for just 50 stories and 615'. When the fight was finally settled, or some time thereafter, 1441 Chestnut was redesigned for 58 stories at 670', which would have included either 279 condos or 208 condos + 150-160 hotel rooms.

The recent article (http://philadelphia.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2007/10/29/newscolumn5.html) stating that Mahoney intends to move forward with 1441 Chestnut in 2008 says that initial site work began in Oct 2007 and that they're putting final touches on the design, which would now likely include 174 condos and 174 hotel rooms. So that's 34 fewer condos than before, but 14 to 24 more hotel rooms. The hotel rooms are likely smaller than the condos, but if the design is still similar, my GUESS is that, if built, this tower will probably still be at least 53 stories if not 58.

As for 1919 Market: if this project is still proposed at 14 stories, shame on "Dopus" for underutilizing a premier location with far greater potential.

[skyscraper]

Thanks skyscraper. You made me laugh so hard I almost lost my dinner......in both directions!

TMI

[BigDan35]

Is it most everyone's hope that 1919 Market DOESN'T break ground? Most people are saying this is a great location for a really tall high-rise and that 14 stories would be a shame here.

[CondoGuru]

the horse says...."neeeeiiiigghhhhhh"!
(not saying that they are not going ahead with this, just quoting my 2-year-old daughter's pullstring toy.)

someone's feathers have been ruffled

[CondoGuru]

Is it most everyone's hope that 1919 Market DOESN'T break ground? Most people are saying this is a great location for a really tall high-rise and that 14 stories would be a shame here.

I think most people agree that it would be a dramatic underuse of the parcel to build the 14 level apartment complex with 40+ storey buildings surrounding it.

[CondoGuru]

I have no insider knowledge either, but according to the press, but what was proposed when the fight started was the 1441 Chestnut plan for just 50 stories and 615'. When the fight was finally settled, or some time thereafter, 1441 Chestnut was redesigned for 58 stories at 670', which would have included either 279 condos or 208 condos + 150-160 hotel rooms.

The recent article (http://philadelphia.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2007/10/29/newscolumn5.html) stating that Mahoney intends to move forward with 1441 Chestnut in 2008 says that initial site work began in Oct 2007 and that they're putting final touches on the design, which would now likely include 174 condos and 174 hotel rooms. So that's 34 fewer condos than before, but 14 to 24 more hotel rooms. The hotel rooms are likely smaller than the condos, but if the design is still similar, my GUESS is that, if built, this tower will probably still be at least 53 stories if not 58.

As for 1919 Market: if this project is still proposed at 14 stories, shame on "Dopus" for underutilizing a premier location with far greater potential.


I just spoke with an engineer friend of mine who was working on the original 1441 Chestnut project that got canned. He confirmed that they've resumed their "exploratory" phase, not to be confused with a committment to "move forward." I asked about the height and he said it's currently at 60 floors, which according to previous plans is even taller than before. A friend and former Mahoney Realty employee dispelled the previous rumor of a Mandarin Oriental Hotel going in there...was never part of the deal, ever. So I'd be curious to find out who they get once and if the new plans get approved. A hotel tenant would lock the financing pretty easily on something this large. We'll see.

[gbayard]

Mahoney needs to find some serious equity partners to move this forward. He doesn't have the resources to put up 100% of the equity towards any of the proposals here assuming he'd finance 80%, including the 10 story parking garage. Good luck to him if the suburban office market gets hit by a potential economic downturn...

[M II A II R II K]

So what you want this thread closed or what

[cjPhilly]

So what you want this thread closed or what

I say kill it. It's nothing but rumors at this point. If an announcement is made we can bring this back to life at that point.

[SJPhillyBoy]

I think you have to kill this thread. The horse didn't know what he was talking about. He was a bad informant.

[CondoGuru]

The "horse" to which you are referring knew a little bit more about the project than you since he worked on it for Opus East. But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and kill the thread, I really don't care one way or the other...I think it's a terd of a building anyway. But before you kill it, you might want to wait two or three weeks when Opus will be issuing a press release regarding the project. But what do I know? Apparently nothing...lol

[SJPhillyBoy]

The "horse" to which you are referring knew a little bit more about the project than you since he worked on it for Opus East.
But before you kill it, you might want to wait two or three weeks when Opus will be issuing a press release regarding the project. But what do I know? Apparently nothing...lol
I never claimed to know anything about this building and admit that I do not know anything about it other than what I read in this thread. I hope the guy that worked for Opus East would know more than me, but it sounds like he was spreading rumors to create excitement for his company's potential development. I could have done that.
At this point, as far as I am concerned, the person you knew that worked at Opus East did not provide accurate information and the press releases from Opus East aren't worth the paper they are written on.
If I am not mistaken, this will be the fourth press release concerning this piece of property. None have been accurate.

[CondoGuru]

Well I'm not sure what incentive anyone has to attempt to drum up "excitement" over a lackluster proposal like this one. And by the way, they're not selling anything there, it's going to be a rental. So it's not as though they're trying to drum up pre-sales like say Trump or Parkway 22 just to build them. The latest I've heard is that there will be an announcement in two to three weeks. What that announcement will be, I will not speculate...but they seem determined to keep this on the public's radar. Why? I have no idea. But they do claim to have received all of their permits and approvals for the smaller, 14 floor apartment plan which they didn't have 6 months ago. You could still stop them SJPhillyBoy, just buy them out and we won't have the pre-cast monster they plan to build there! :yes:

[M II A II R II K]

Ok it's done.

This can always be re-opened or restarted in a new thread if need be.

[SJPhillyBoy]

The latest I've heard is that there will be an announcement in two to three weeks. What that announcement will be, I will not speculate...but they seem determined to keep this on the public's radar.
I am still patiently waiting for this announcement.