Phoenix CityScape Thread [Archive] - Page 59

HooverDam

Dec 5, 2010, 2:51 AM

wait so you're saying in order to be a good design, it has to follow the formula of books you've read? Sorry, but I judge a good design on how attractive it is (cityscape is 50/50 here for me), how usable it is (they fit a stage, water feature, restaurants, bars, stores, and an ice rink in it), and how accessible it is via foot, public transportation, and private transportation (all of which it is.)

No, the point I'm trying to get at is, over the years on this board you've again and again lauded places (CityScape, The Federal Courthouse) that are universally derided by professionals in the design community as sub par design. Its clear to me that having a design discussion with you is about as pointless as having a discussion about cars (a subject of which I know nothing) with me. You're forming opinions based on a very limited exposure to quality design, and thus coming up with what can only be classified as, rather odd opinions.

I've asked before and I'll again...

To the critics, how would you have designed it different incorporating the same amount of "park" space and retail. How would you guys have done it?

First of all the fallacy of your argument should be pointed out. You seem to be implying that in order to criticize, one must be able to on their own create a superior product. Using this same scheme of judgement Roger Ebert shouldn't be allowed to criticize CASBLANCA because his own film, BEYOND THE VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, isn't as good. Seems rather silly.

But to answer your question, the design changes I would've made are numerous.

With the CityScape tower itself:
1. I would've designed a building that is suited for the unique desert climate. I would not have built a shiny blue office tower that looks equally at home in Cincinnati or Anchorage.
I wouldn't have created a building that has zero sun screening, and reflects harsh summer light down into the plaza, thats a major design failure.

2. I wouldn't have created a building who's crown is too short and leaves the mechanical structures on his roof visible for all to see, a clear violation of City Code.

3. I wouldn't have created a building with a raised island between it and the potential future hotel space. That creates a barrier to getting into places like Golds and the Hotel and it will likely become a very lightly used area, just like the raised portion of the Colliers Center.

4. I wouldn't have put the shade structure on the pedestrian bridge on the North side of the bridge, thats laughably stupid.

Regarding the plaza:
1. Once it was deemed economically unfeasible for the apartments on the West half of the block to be built, I would've gone back to the drawing board. Since its clear the garage below can support the weight of taller structures, I would've massed the North & South sides higher and opened up the West end.

Opening the West end of the plaza would've created much needed added visibility to the site. It also would've given those inside the plaza views of the gorgeous Historic County Courthouse and the City Buildings designed by the renowned Varney/Haver firm. Additionally it would've made entry to the plaza visible from a Light Rail station and likely enticed more people to use it.

Finally opening up that side would've eliminated the creepy, dark, overhang that currently exists on the Westside. Its an anti pedestrian space in the worst way and will surely be avoided by people going North-South along 1st Ave.

2. I would've looked to Cities like Chicago (Millenium Park) and Houston (Discovery Green) with great urban fountains for design ideas for the fountain space instead of creating a bland, forgettable fountain like currently exists.

3. I would've placed a higher priority on green space, and accessible green space, rather than just grass in raised planters thats not much use to anyone other than visually.

4. I would've created an entry to Oakville Grocery facing Jefferson, the entire projects face along Jefferson is quite bad. One only need to look across the street to the Luhrs building to see what real permeability is like.

5. I would've used intricate and interesting facade materials that reflect the locality of the project instead of huge swaths of gray nothingness. I also would've insisted on CVS uses real window displays (like most cities do by the by) instead of those cheep posters.

6. I would've like to have seen a better way to honor the historic founders of Phoenix rather than the dull brick wall with their names on it. Sure, its about the same as what the old Park had, but thats not really good enough. Plaques with more details and photos would've been nice, and a statue of Swilling would've been excellent.

7. Shade....ever hear of it? It gets hot as shit in Phoenix, and CityScapes shading is awful. If the South side were built up higher it would've helped a lot. Given the current massing a retractable sail of some kind over the plaza to block harsh Southern and Western rays is much needed.

8. Misters, unless Im mistaken the lip of the 2nd story that faces into the plaza lacks misters that could help keep the plaza cool in the summer.

9. Less physical barriers, areas like the entry to Oakville as well as the entry to that art gallery on the NW corner are awkward and don't allow pedestrians to flow in a natural way. Already I've seen numerous people (myself included) jumping barriers to get to where they're going more quickly.

10. I would've made it mandatory that all ground floor establishments had duel entry, to the plaza and to the streets on the outside. This is done in most every other city, its not at all difficult to do.

11. Rooftop activities, with cool views to the Luhrs building, the County Courthouse, etc. why not have a beer garden or some kind of rooftop pool or something?

Hows that? Just for starters.

E: Also I have no clue where Vicelord is getting is 75% figure for street facing retail. Lets go over it:
CVS has a corner entrance
Five Guys has a corner entrance
Five Guys has a small entrance in an area that can only be described as "rape alley"
Urban Outfitters has a corner entrance

Otherwise on the plaza block the entire South side is a blank wall, most of the West side except for a small door is a blank wall (why not at least put ATMs on the wall, or some local art?), the whole North side is a blank wall. If anything, its much closer to 25% (thats being extremely generous) entrances facing the streets.

VVV I thought we were just talking about the Plaza/PSP block, a lot of the places you're talking about are on the other block. Either way, the point stands, the Plaza block is horribly inward facing and isolates the plaza from the surrounding City.

Go walk around the CityScape plaza tonight, notice how you can be on the Luhrs Block, by the County Courthouse or by the Wells Fargo tower and think you're one of the few people downtown. Even if the Cityscape plaza is full of people ice skating, you'd never know it, they're hidden due to poor urban design.

And Oakville does not face the street, it faces the plaza. You can not enter it from the street unless you climb a fence, it must be entered via the plaza.

Vicelord John

Dec 5, 2010, 4:27 AM

Vitamin T, Charming Charlie, Lgo, mid first bank, Steak, Sushi, Republic of Coture, And Oakville all face the street.

Gump

Dec 5, 2010, 5:47 AM

I agree with many of HooverDam's observations. But, as Vicelord John points out, there are many great qualities of CityScape. With more density Downtown, greater exposure to the street will occur. For a long time there was nothing new to the scale of One Central Park East or CityScape. Maybe we can do better (I think we can), but bashing those who are contributing mightily and who continue to try to improve the Downtown is inappropriate.
Developing anything to the size of CityScape and filling the retail in the worst market since the Great Depression deserves a bit more respect.

Buckeye Native 001

Dec 5, 2010, 6:58 AM

I'm still of the belief that right now, its better than nothing, so I'm asking this mostly out of ignorance since I've yet to see CityScape in person, but what's keeping this from becoming Arizona Center, Part Deux?

More specifically, I'm a bit concerned about long-term issues, such as will CityScape venues continue to draw crowds once the novelty wears off, especially as the local economy continues to slog through a depression? Or is it safe to say the novelty has already worn off? I know its idiotic, but since I'm not living in Phoenix right now, I'm not as up-to-date on the developments as the rest of you.

Phxguy

Dec 5, 2010, 7:36 AM

I think that due to Cityscape's newer veunues, some of which have never been seen in the downtown area, the novelty will never wear out completely. I'd much rather have Cityscape, eventhough it isn't completely as planned, than a park sheltering the homeless and a parking lot. Even in this economy, this developement is breathing life back to downtown. This change may be temporary or be building a stronger foundation, but either way Cityscape has changed downtown for the better. I can't possibly see why people criticize this project.

exit2lef

Dec 5, 2010, 1:30 PM

I agree with most of what Hoover's got to say, although I'll withhold final judgment until the project is complete. The main problem I have with CityScape is that it shows how little we've learned from history.

In 1990, Phoenix rallied behind the Arizona Center. That project was a huge success for the first few years but then gradually faded to become the dull complex it is today. In 2000, the Collier Center opened. At least then, we didn't get too excited. Like the Arizona Center, it's at least mostly leased, so it's not an outright failure. Nevertheless, both projects are huge missed opportunities.

In a way, the missed opportunities are understandable given how much of a gamble putting anything Downtown was 10 or 20 years ago. In 2010, however, we should be thinking differently and doing everything possible to address the street. Downtown isn't as scary as it was in 1990 or 2000, so we have no justification for building fortresses.

It seems like every year ending in zero has a new "big project" for Downtown dangled in front of us, but the real successes have been smaller scale projects involving adaptive reuse, small business, and creative ventures. By the way, on the way to Prescott the other day, I passed by the Anthem Outlet Mall. I'm embarrassed to say they have the tree CityScape should have put in if it really wanted to be like Rockefeller Center.

HooverDam

Dec 5, 2010, 2:40 PM

Buckeye, the novelty certainly hasn't worn off yet, most people don't know CityScape exists yet. Since they've done this weird phased opening its not getting a lot of business yet since most everything isn't yet open.

I really do hope it succeeds, I hope everything built downtown does well, I'm not a narcissist. Even if it does well economically though, that won't be a stamp that its designed well, thats another issue entirely.

My hope is since it has interesting anchors, Lucky Strike & a Comedy Club that are new ideas for Downtown, it'll due well. It gives people going to sporting/other events other things to do Downtown before/after and creates destinations of their own, I think that'll be important to its potential success.

Its certainly better than nothing, and better than how bad PSP was, but its still a huge missed opportunity design wise. The discussion shouldn't be "nothing vs. this disappointment we received" it should be about good design vs bad design.

Gump

Dec 5, 2010, 4:17 PM

No kidding, this whole project is delusional... at least the morons behind the marketing of it are. They must be really stupid if they think people are stupid enough to believe any of their hyperbole.

Like someone said before, nix the ice rink and get a truely grandiose tree. The first thing that came to mind when I saw the tree pic was charlie brown's christmas tree.

This discussion started by opinions questioning the efforts of RED and then morphed into a "adequate design" discussion. As it relates to design, I agree with much of the commentary and would have liked CityScape to look less like Arizona Center and more like an urban style project. However, there were certain challenges to this project, including the fact that it encompassed 3 blocks in the middle of the City. With such little happening around it for so long, and with the current leadership Downtown still mentally geared toward more suburban platforms, we wind up with a project that would be beautiful placed in any suburb throughout the country.

But this is Phoenix. And it is proper to question such a design in a city that needs to act more urban. But now we have Cityscape, and we still have Arizona Center and the two sports facilities, and a Convention Center, light rail, and ASU. We have The Summit, 44 Monroe and One Central Park East. Not all of the mistakes of the past, including Arizona Center, should be blames strictly on design. Many, again including Arizona Center, were just there before everything else. Some. like Summit and 44 Monroe, arrived at the worst market since The Great Depression. However, now that we have all of this other stuff going on, let's learn from HooverDam's citing of The Death and Life of The Great American City and continue to build the quilt, and let's applaud developers that brought us these recent projects and remain committed to breathing life into Downtown instead of calling them "really stupid."

dtnphx

Dec 5, 2010, 11:03 PM

Vicelord John

Dec 5, 2010, 11:29 PM

I generally have positive things to say on most matters, but if I say I think the tree is douchy and the skating rink is dinky or that I don't like the grey walls facing the street, that's my fucking opinion. If you don't like different opinions don't visit this forum. I've been following Cityscape for years now. I've been disappointed AND surprised by different aspects of it. The eventual retail mix is impressive, but to call out some of it's faults is natural. If you're so upset by the negative posts, just take a look at many more better done projects around town and around the country. I hope Cityscape lives up its hype, and yes, i get that it makes an impact on the overall downtown, but several of you, (read Vicelord) who bitches and moans and says offensive shit all the time, is taken back because of some humorous or constructive comments, is pure and utter bullshit. Get the fuck over yourselves. Bartender, pour me another double...

dude... I'm not bitching and moaning over humorous or constructive comments. I'm bitching and moaning over bitching and moaning. Nothing, until yesterday, that Hoover said was constructive. It was all bitching and moaning about how much the project "sucks."

I'm all for discussion and bettering things, but I get tired of reading the same broken record shit. WE KNOW YOU DONT LIKE IT, now offer a better alternative, or contact Jeff Moloznik and offer help to make it better. If you can't do that then shut the fuck up!

Gump

Dec 5, 2010, 11:55 PM

I generally have positive things to say on most matters, but if I say I think the tree is douchy and the skating rink is dinky or that I don't like the grey walls facing the street, that's my fucking opinion. If you don't like different opinions don't visit this forum. I've been following Cityscape for years now. I've been disappointed AND surprised by different aspects of it. The eventual retail mix is impressive, but to call out some of it's faults is natural. If you're so upset by the negative posts, just take a look at many more better done projects around town and around the country. I hope Cityscape lives up its hype, and yes, i get that it makes an impact on the overall downtown, but several of you, (read Vicelord) who bitches and moans and says offensive shit all the time, is taken back because of some humorous or constructive comments, is pure and utter bullshit. Get the fuck over yourselves. Bartender, pour me another double...

My comments were not directed to you in particular. HooverDam's opinions were constructive, detailed, and well thought out. The person who commented that the Developer was "really stupid" and believing their own hyperbole was not being constructive, just negative and mean. Can we all agree that that is where the line is drawn?

HooverDam

Dec 6, 2010, 2:39 AM

Nothing, until yesterday, that Hoover said was constructive.

This of course, is bullshit. Along the way in this thread as well as other places I've pointed out its design flaws and been specific and mentioned ways it could be done better.

I attended numerous City meetings since back when the whole PSP park debate was going on, have emailed and corresponded with people at the City and at RED about the project. I've talked specifically to Carol Johnson of the City Planning Department about the enforcement of the Urban Form guidelines and why CityScape failed to meet them and what the City can do about it (sadly, nothing, CityScape got in under the wire before the code was totally in place).

I do everything in my (rather limited) power to make this City and specifically Downtown a better place. I put my money and time where my mouth is and am involved in as many Civic organizations as time permits, offer constructive feedback and assistance in any way I can. I regularly attend meetings about the Bike Boulevard, Tree & Shade Master Plan, the Hance Park redesign, LRT extensions, the Urban Form Code, the Historic Neighborhoods Coalition, Downtown Voices, Grand Avenue re-dapt, various Modern Phoenix functions, etc. and have failed to ever see you at anything of the sort, so to say I'm not offering or saying anything constructive is flatly wrong.

HX_Guy

Dec 6, 2010, 3:24 AM

HooverDam, mostly good points and I agree with you on the majority of them but there are some that have been criticized a lot in the past, even by me, that when you sit back and think about it...could they really have done it different and if so, how?

For example...

3. I wouldn't have created a building with a raised island between it and the potential future hotel space. That creates a barrier to getting into places like Golds and the Hotel and it will likely become a very lightly used area, just like the raised portion of the Colliers Center.

Where would you do the loading? I think that is the main reason why the center area is raised, because there are huge loading docks underneath with an entrance off Jefferson. The other option would have been to turn the space between the office and hotel towers into an alley way I think but that wouldn't not have flowed well with the block directly west.

1. Once it was deemed economically unfeasible for the apartments on the West half of the block to be built, I would've gone back to the drawing board. Since its clear the garage below can support the weight of taller structures, I would've massed the North & South sides higher and opened up the West end.

Opening the West end of the plaza would've created much needed added visibility to the site. It also would've given those inside the plaza views of the gorgeous Historic County Courthouse and the City Buildings designed by the renowned Varney/Haver firm. Additionally it would've made entry to the plaza visible from a Light Rail station and likely enticed more people to use it.

Two things here. One, I understand that they did not have the air rights to build higher because of the CC&R of Renaissance, so they had to have the retail on the west end and couldn't stack the north/south ends higher. Second, there is a parking garage entrance on the west side, so if not building was there, you'd end up with a gaping hole with a fench/barrier around it for safety.

I would've looked to Cities like Chicago (Millenium Park) and Houston (Discovery Green) with great urban fountains for design ideas for the fountain space instead of creating a bland, forgettable fountain like currently exists.

Is there really space for something of that scale here though? And could you still have the multi-purpose space you have now?

A lot of other things I'm sure came down to money...such as the parapet on top of the office tower, the materials used for the facades of the buildings and roof top gardens etc. Maybe they did spend as little as possible to pocket the rest, but I want to believe it was the other way...they only had so much money and it only went this far. I don't think they would intentionally build a poor product.

Leo the Dog

Dec 6, 2010, 4:10 AM

Hoover has made some excellent points about the major design flaws and lost opportunities for a project of CS's immense size. CS is a nice new addition to DT for sure, but Phoenix really blew it with this project to truly create a walkable urban experience.

PHX31

Dec 6, 2010, 4:43 AM

let's applaud developers that brought us these recent projects and remain committed to breathing life into Downtown instead of calling them "really stupid."

Hey, how about you learn to read. We all know you're behind some of the developers of some of dt's more recent projects, as either a developer yourself or one of their right-hand-men... but that doesn't mean they're very skilled, nor developing things simply to "breathe life into downtown"... it's obvious they're developing land for the money, as is everything else anyone does as an occupation.

But I said the "really stupid" people were behind their marketing efforts. What else would you call someone that favorably compares this:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/d164523d.jpg

to this:
http://nycsunflower.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/rockefeller-center-christmas-tree_6648.jpg

???

I'd call anyone a moron who tried to get me to believe that.

Vicelord John

Dec 6, 2010, 4:57 AM

The marketing company is definitely a joke. Patty Johnson over at Marcom just doesn't have it together mentally and it shows well on the facebook. I did her a huge favor over the summer and got her a great hotel rate as friends and family, what does she do? Rips us apart on the post-stay survey. Yup, lots of brains there.

HooverDam

Dec 6, 2010, 5:38 AM

Where would you do the loading?

I would've been fine with an alley, and keeping the project on that block facing more outward. Or you could do like a lot of places along Pedestrian Malls do and have most deliveries done via hand carts and such. Its a pain in the butt for the delivery folks, but better for the rest of us. Its what they seem to do on the Denver 16th Street Mall and the Pedestrian Mall in Portland that Im currently forgetting the name of.

[QUOTE=HX_Guy;5082115]

Two things here. One, I understand that they did not have the air rights to build higher because of the CC&R of Renaissance, so they had to have the retail on the west end and couldn't stack the north/south ends higher. Second, there is a parking garage entrance on the west side, so if not building was there, you'd end up with a gaping hole with a fench/barrier around it for safety.

Im not sure I'm following, didn't all the early plans call for higher buildings on at least 2 of the sides? A deal probably could've been worked out with Renaissance, especially if City leadership got involved and really wanted to make something happen.

Its true pedestrians would've had to have walked around the garage down ramp, but I still think opening up the project visually to the Courthouse would've been great. I for one would be far more likely to sit and enjoy a fountain while looking up at that structure rather than a blank gray wall.

Is there really space for something of that scale here though? And could you still have the multi-purpose space you have now?

Sure, the Mist Tree (I think its called) in Houston is a vertical element as are the Fountains at Millennium park. How does the CityScape splash pad set itself apart from the ones at Tempe Marketplace, Desert Ridge, Kierland, etc? It doesn't. But shouldn't it? By the nature of geographic position in the City, isn't it important? Shouldn't more thought have been put into it? I'm not asking for a lot, just something creative.

I don't think they would intentionally build a poor product.

I don't think they were trying to, I just don't think for the most part they knew any better. They're a mostly suburban oriented firm that hired an architecture firm from Seattle. Not surprisingly, they came up with a mediocre at best urban space for the Desert.

Some of the things probably did come down to money and value engineering. But so many of the mistakes are clearly not monetarily driven, that those mistakes just add insult to injury. The pedestrian bridge shade structure is just a perfect example, it sums up the entire project.

HooverDam

Dec 6, 2010, 6:12 AM

Sorry for the double post, but this isn't related to the previous one, so I figured it should get its own post:

Re: The empty lot bounded by Jefferson/Washington and 1st/2nd Streets:

If RED wanted to create a truly urban place until the economy picks up and they can actually develop that block, why not work with the City to create a block of food trucks? Blocks like this have been insanely successful in cities like Portland (I saw/ate from them this summer, theyre terrific), from WikiP:

In the United States, the city of Portland, Oregon has recently experienced a boom in the number of food carts, trailers and stands, and currently has about 450 carts.[2] As explained in the website foodcartsportland.com, Portland has a proliferation of Food Carts and they seem to be growing in numbers and locations. Some might call them lunch wagons, taco trucks or even snack shacks, but whatever you call them, they are truly a phenomenon in Portland. Set up in parking lots, sidewalks, and even parks (sometimes in large groups and sometimes solo), one might nosh on a fresh tortilla Baja fish taco one day, a rib-sticking bowl of traditional goulash the next, have a coffee and pastry for an afternoon snack, and then take home a giant Indian combo box for dinner."[3]

A 2001 report in The Oregonian stated Portland was home to 175 carts, with fierce competition for the four cart spaces available since 1987 in the South Park Blocks.[4][5] A bidding war in February 2001 led for a combined price of $192,000 for the spaces.[4] There was also a large cluster at Fifth and Stark street, and one food cart had been running since 1980.[5].

On May 10, 2009, Matt Gross of the New York Times wrote in his Frugal Traveler column, "there are almost 400 carts around Portland, most of them clustered into “pods” that ring parking lots, and thanks to low start-up costs and Multnomah County’s straightforward licensing and inspection regime, aspiring chefs can make their names without major investments. As a New Yorker I was jealous; as the Frugal Traveler, overjoyed at what I could find within a single pod..."[6]

The food carts would be 'solution multipliers' and do numerous amazing things for Downtown:

1. Provide a low start up cost operation for aspiring chefs (a profession the Valleys many culinary schools graduate in droves). Many of those in Portland who start out as food cart operators eventually go on to open their own brick and mortar neighborhood restaurants, it becomes an economic incubator for the culinary industry.

2. Create a truly unique destination in the City/State that isn't replicated elsewhere and causes people to come check it out.

3. Create likely vastly more revenue for RED than a traditional, half full parking lot would

4. Create an urban space full of life and activity where a currently anti urban space exists

5. Provide many more options for post 5pm dining due to the low cost of keeping the carts operating later. Thus people enjoying sporting events, concerts, the nightclubs on Washington, Lucky Strike, the comedy club, etc. would have more options, more of a reason to linger and stay down town and more reason to spend sales tax dollars in Downtown/Phoenix.

6. create more sales tax dollars for the City in a down economy

The City of Phoenix has recently shown a more open mind about the idea of food carts and with pressure from a company like RED could go a long way. If the process of inspections and licensing were streamlined and food carts restricted to certain areas like this (to appease the City/make things easier on them) it wouldn't be a difficult thing to implement.

Now, why won't it happen? Something like it likely won't happen because RED is a company that doesn't understand urbanism. They've designed a project that cuts you off from the city so you spend your money in their project. They don't understand that by creating a vital district, you attract hoards more people, who will come shop at your retailers anyhow.

I imagine RED would be fearful that people would eat at the food carts instead of Vitamin T, LGO, etc. which of course, is the wrong way of looking at it.

bwonger06

Dec 6, 2010, 5:22 PM

HooverDam

Dec 6, 2010, 11:59 PM

Unfortunately, RED has no say when it comes to that block. I say unfortunately because the block is under the control of Colliers... a company much more inept than RED.

I thought they like co-owned it or something, is that not correct? Its wholly under Colliers control? Either way, I still think it'd be a bang up place for a food cart pod and is an idea worth pursuing.

Leo the Dog

Dec 7, 2010, 12:35 AM

Vicelord John

Dec 7, 2010, 12:38 AM

Gump

Dec 7, 2010, 12:56 AM

Hey, how about you learn to read. We all know you're behind some of the developers of some of dt's more recent projects, as either a developer yourself or one of their right-hand-men... but that doesn't mean they're very skilled, nor developing things simply to "breathe life into downtown"... it's obvious they're developing land for the money, as is everything else anyone does as an occupation.

But I said the "really stupid" people were behind their marketing efforts. What else would you call someone that favorably compares this:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/d164523d.jpg

to this:
http://nycsunflower.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/rockefeller-center-christmas-tree_6648.jpg

???

I'd call anyone a moron who tried to get me to believe that.
There are people extremely committed to making Downtown work, even if it is in their self-interest to do so. You would not have anything to critique if those companies did not step up. You will have nothing to critique if you create an environment of hostility. It amazes me that you are so quick to rip the people who are trying fulfill the vision you dream of. So, instead of calling people "really stupid," make your point and move on. I'd rather start with a piss poor attempt like that tree this year and build on the thought (which is a good one) to improve it next year rather than being so harsh that alienate everyone and they stop trying.

As for me, I am on your side. I am not the enemy simply because I may know people active Downtown. But, like those who are making an effort, maybe I should stop participating in this forum because you may think me "really stupid" also.

HooverDam

Dec 7, 2010, 1:37 AM

I'd rather see something get built on that block, but if it does remain a surface lot for the next 5-20 years, food trucks are really fun.

I went to Venice Beach's First Friday and the main street (Abbot Kinney blvd) has tons of these trucks lining the street and parked at a parking lot. Big draw, big success. Awesome food.

Yah Im sure we'd all love to see something there whether is be condos, more office, more retail, some combination or a Central Civic Square (my preference) but for the conceivable future, nothing is going to be constructed there.

The start up cost to RED/Colliers would be very little for a food truck pod, just some trees, a security guard, and maybe some electrical outlets....

exit2lef

Dec 7, 2010, 3:33 AM

Speaking of food trucks, I ate at Short Leash Dogs at the market on saturday. Let's just say my skepticism is gone and it was one amazing experience. I wholly recommend it, even to David even though you don't like dogs.

Yes, I've tried it since our last talk. I've got to admit it's pretty amazing for a food I don't normally like.

exit2lef

Dec 7, 2010, 3:35 AM

Yah Im sure we'd all love to see something there whether is be condos, more office, more retail, some combination or a Central Civic Square (my preference) but for the conceivable future, nothing is going to be constructed there.

The start up cost to RED/Colliers would be very little for a food truck pod, just some trees, a security guard, and maybe some electrical outlets....

Great thoughts on a food truck pod, but it's already being done every Friday from 11 AM to 1 PM at the Downtown Phoenix Public Market. I'd hate to undermine their efforts. Could two pods coexist? Maybe eventually, but I'm not sure it could happen yet.

PHX31

Dec 7, 2010, 3:52 AM

There are people extremely committed to making Downtown work, even if it is in their self-interest to do so. You would not have anything to critique if those companies did not step up. You will have nothing to critique if you create an environment of hostility. It amazes me that you are so quick to rip the people who are trying fulfill the vision you dream of. So, instead of calling people "really stupid," make your point and move on. I'd rather start with a piss poor attempt like that tree this year and build on the thought (which is a good one) to improve it next year rather than being so harsh that alienate everyone and they stop trying.

As for me, I am on your side. I am not the enemy simply because I may know people active Downtown. But, like those who are making an effort, maybe I should stop participating in this forum because you may think me "really stupid" also.

I'm not sure how you feel like I offended everyone that has ever been even remotely involved in developing downtown, but if it makes you feel better, I take back calling their marketing people really stupid. However, I would suggest they tone down their hyperbole and extreme comparisons until they're sure of delivering on their "promises".

Believe it or not, but it is COMPLETELY counter-productive for developers or their marketers or who ever to make wild claims hoping to drum up interest and business, only to deliver nothing of the sort. It'll just piss people off or make them laugh and never go back (or go in the first place).

HooverDam

Dec 7, 2010, 4:08 AM

Great thoughts on a food truck pod, but it's already being done every Friday from 11 AM to 1 PM at the Downtown Phoenix Public Market. I'd hate to undermine their efforts. Could two pods coexist? Maybe eventually, but I'm not sure it could happen yet.

I would imagine the ones there could just move south a bit. For most folks, the Public Markets location is quite a bit off the beaten path, especially for office workers. The RED/Colliers block would have foot traffic from conventioneers, ballgame patrons, office workers, etc.

Gump

Dec 7, 2010, 4:15 AM

I'm not sure how you feel like I offended everyone that has ever been even remotely involved in developing downtown, but if it makes you feel better, I take back calling their marketing people really stupid. However, I would suggest they tone down their hyperbole and extreme comparisons until they're sure of delivering on their "promises".

Believe it or not, but it is COMPLETELY counter-productive for developers or their marketers or who ever to make wild claims hoping to drum up interest and business, only to deliver nothing of the sort. It'll just piss people off or make them laugh and never go back (or go in the first place).

I agree with you.

HX_Guy

Dec 7, 2010, 6:44 PM

Charming Charlie opened today...some pics from Cityscape's Facebook page...looks so "big city" to me. :D

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs734.snc4/65450_183622948318899_118100984871096_724934_3434495_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1204.snc4/155691_183622961652231_118100984871096_724935_2318912_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs407.ash2/68588_183623104985550_118100984871096_724942_3670764_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs599.ash2/155104_183623188318875_118100984871096_724947_6741390_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs953.snc4/74640_183623304985530_118100984871096_724952_3937724_n.jpg

gymratmanaz

Dec 7, 2010, 7:11 PM

I agree HX, love the glass elevator!!!

Vicelord John

Dec 7, 2010, 7:59 PM

Walked by last night and wondered how in the world do they inventory all that shit?!

gymratmanaz

Dec 7, 2010, 8:06 PM

I know, John. It does seem like a huge garage sale of tables and shelves. Not that i would shop there, but it does look like a cool store that would be in Chicago or NYC.

So, when will we see some movement on the hotel and the rest? Are we in some sort of holding pattern. Nothing seems to be happening. Normal? Planned? ??????

HX_Guy

Dec 7, 2010, 8:38 PM

Hotel seems to be waiting on permitting at the moment...they submitted with with the City and looks like some corrections need to be made before they can get the final permit to build.

Reviewer's Notes PHAS-0705627-10

ARCHITECTURAL STRUCTURAL CORRECTIONS REVIEW: IBC
BY: Kenton Steiner DATE: 11/15/10 ACTION: PR 1-C
Job Title: Cityscape South Tower-slabs,columns level 4-11 PHAS 0705627-10
Reviewed by Kenton Steiner, P.E.
Phone #602-534-2768
FAX#602-495-5784
E-Mail kenton.steiner@phoenix.gov

Architectural/Structural review comments:

1 1704,1709 Please submit completed special inspection and observation forms for this phase.

2 Structural calculations 1603 Please provide a summary of structural loading reactions from this phase compared to previous approved plans. Show that this phase does not result in loads that are higher than those previously permitted. This summary can be shown on the plans as well.

3 Plan submittal- 1603, 1604 Please include in this package a copy of all referenced drawings noted in the plans. GSN, Architectural dimension drawings, detail drawings for connections between slabs and shear walls etc. Also provide copies of text for all revision package numbers for scope change reference. This information and packaging is required to maintain continuity in records since the phasing has become so numerous.

4 1603 Please include architectural drawings referenced for all penetration locations and sleeve locations. Also include those architectural details that apply to these locations that pertain to the slab openings. Please include stair and elevator dimensions from the architectural drawings as reference.

5 S-102 Table 601 Please revise all fire rated clearances to correspond to 3 hr. rating per this table. Revise clearances for slabs to 3 hr as well since the slabs in this section directly connect to the columns for support. See tables in 721 for clearances.

6 PT Slab drawings and notes Please revise drawings based on the following guidelines and provide the information required:

Subject: PT slab Guidelines

Required information/details for construction drawings:

Slab/beam geometry: length, width, thickness, overlapping regions based on simplified analysis for complex geometries, thickened sections if used, turndowns.

Concrete strength- 28 days, strength at jacking.

Em, Ym, .

Strand specifications; strand grade and diameter, clearances, drape if used,
p jack, assumed losses, anchor set, edge distance to first strand, edge moisture variation. Plans shall graphically show all locations of strand tendons with dimensioned spacing requirements.

Mild reinforcing associated with stress concentrations ( re-entrant corners, etc.)

Loading data: Concentrated loads from framing elements; posts and columns, fire places, heavy equipment, etc. Perimeter line loading.

Suggested information-

Strand elongation.
pt hardware supplier assumptions- ie. Proprietary data from supplier used in analysis assumptions.

7 106 Please submit stair/guard rail designs and details for this phase. Only alternate design may be deferred.

8 1604 On loading information drawings please dimension limits of all load cases on the plans. Add copies of these to the calculation package.

9 To view comments via the internet go to:www.phoenix.gov

plinko

Dec 7, 2010, 11:42 PM

Cityscape's ultimate success will be in its staying power over time. What the complex does offer is a series of spaces which simply don't exist anywhere else downtown. Hopefully downtown has enough gravity at this point forward to sustain such a development.

Generally the masses don't care about architecture. It's the honest and sad truth. If the spaces are pleasant enough and offer something unique, it'll likely be successful.

While unfortunately I've been unable to see the complex in person, I do agree with many of Hoover's assessments on the details and overall layout. With that being said, I don't think any of them will sink the project in any real capacity (except maybe the elevated office tower/hotel block podium, which is a regrettable mistake, especially if the eastern block is ever developed). I do think that many of the small details add alot to the project (such as the Urban Outfitters corner or the Charming Charlie corner posted above). I do really find it unfortunate that many of those details were not augmented by the CVS/Oakville Building, which looks like a travesty.

HX_Guy

Dec 8, 2010, 5:25 PM

Generally the masses don't care about architecture. It's the honest and sad truth. If the spaces are pleasant enough and offer something unique, it'll likely be successful.

Great point you made there Plinko, it's very very true. A lot of us on here take notice of all the little things, but people in general never notice them. All the people I've taken to Cityscape downtown have loved it and not one commented on the design.

azcats

Dec 8, 2010, 5:26 PM

Have been following this board for some time. Live in California..originally from Arizona. Please continue to post pictures of progress in downtown Phoenix - really enjoy seeing those - you all do a great job with your shots. I decided to comment after reading Phoenix - Hoover Dam's comments ...especially
#4. I was in Phoenix the weekend before Thanksgiving...and toured City Scape. When I walked over the pedestrian bridge - my thoughts were the same. The shade only covers half the walkway...and it will do nothing to protect from the sun - coming from the south and the west. I remember thinking the same thing...it made no sense. How could they make such a blatant error? I was there at NIGHT and that was my immediate reaction walking on the bridge. If they built a huge shopping center in downtown Phoenix like they did in Century City -things would take off. When you drive into the parking garage at Century City - the shopping center is above the garage. However, there is a Gelsens supermarket in the parking garage. That would be perfect for Phoenix in the summer months - hiding underneath from the blazing sun. They need to do a better job promoting the University of Arizona medical school in downtown. The sign is too small...and some people think that the med school is part of asu. The UofA is building a six story education building - and soon - another branch of their Cancer Center.

PHX31

Dec 8, 2010, 6:04 PM

I think the shade structure on the pedestrian bridge is correctly oriented. During the hot summer months the angle of the sun is from the north (although it can also be hot in the spring and the fall when the angle is more from the south, so during that time it will be worthless). In the nice winter months people don't want as much shade, the sun will be coming from the south, and the bridge will be "correctly" in the sun.

I guess ultimately they should have put the shade structure right down the middle, so at any time of year you can walk in the shade or the sun.

plinko

Dec 8, 2010, 7:27 PM

^Correct, but even in the summer, the north sun is only in the morning and afternoon. At 12 noon the sun is like 19degrees to the south IIRC.

One could argue that the pedestrian bridge itself is useless, given that 2 floor urban retail barely works long term in cities with 2X the density. It's honestly what I dislike most about the project, that they've taken people off the street level entirely and are leading them to (by most accounts) a sterile and exorbitantly hot elevated plaza with little to really activate it. The elevated plaza makes even less sense if the eastern block is eventually developed. It allows for no real visual connection from one end of the development to the other (within what is touted to be the 'public' space).

But I digress, what's done is done.

Phxguy

Dec 9, 2010, 12:02 AM

The pedestrian bridge only provides a vantage point on Central and a few entrances to stores. Other than that it really is half and half on shade. Due to the fact that it is close to several high rises it'll be in shade during the summer/fall mornings and evenings. It'll be in the sun almost all day during winter and early spring.

HX_Guy

Dec 9, 2010, 12:39 AM

Vicelord John

Dec 9, 2010, 2:59 AM

plinko

Dec 9, 2010, 4:12 AM

I've been to Cityscape countless times and have yet to ever cross the bridge. There really is minimal retail on the 2nd floor...Par Exsalonce and Gold's Gym, both of which are places that people would go to purposefully, not just strolling by like with a clothing store. Same with the other side...Stand Up Live and Lucky Strike. Because of that, I don't completely hate the 2nd story retail...they sort of had to put it up there as there really was no other space form the looks of it. At least they were smart and put the real retail on the street.

^And you just pointed out the exact reason why the bridge is completely unnecessary. There are specific destination spaces up top (the kind that don't require lots of street frontage or entrances) but NOBODY is walking between them.

It's about $500,000 (my ballpark estimate for the bridge) that I think would have been much better spent on facade embellishments and public accoutrements.

Schadenfreude

Dec 10, 2010, 2:42 AM

They added a few more small trees and other decorations

http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/Schadenfreude99/54d23d38.jpg

dtnphx

Dec 10, 2010, 4:14 PM

Great! Target must have been having a sale.

Vicelord John

Dec 10, 2010, 4:40 PM

Great! Target must have been having a sale.

Lol!! Or big lots ha

PHX31

Dec 10, 2010, 4:51 PM

LOL. wait, just give them time. They also have one tree trunk wrapped in lights. Just you wait until several more are wrapped!

HX_Guy

Dec 10, 2010, 9:18 PM

So this is the multi-million album artist they are brining for New Years? Anyone heard of this guy? :shrug:

http://www.cityscapephoenix.com/newyearseve/

PHX31

Dec 10, 2010, 9:20 PM

/\ I didn't know he went solo, but I like Live. I think he's pretty decent.

KingLouieLouie76

Dec 10, 2010, 10:28 PM

/\ I didn't know he went solo, but I like Live. I think he's pretty decent.

Yeah, unfortunately Live broke-up in November of '09.....

I saw them perform at Tempe's Block Party back in '03-'04 and they were awesome!

What I also love it is free General Admission for those who are attending that night's Suns vs. Pistons game....I have season tickets, so that is an impressive promotion indeed!

dtnphx

Dec 10, 2010, 11:38 PM

Live was awesome, but he sure doesn't have a marquee name. I can see it now...

Ladies and Gentleman, Live at Cityscape to ring in 2011----

ED KOWALCZYK

Hilarious

DowntownDweller

Dec 15, 2010, 9:04 PM

From the memo which just went out, it looks like I'm moving to City Scape next year.

Vicelord John

Dec 15, 2010, 9:11 PM

From the memo which just went out, it looks like I'm moving to City Scape next year.

seeing as none of us work for your company, care to share a little more info?

DowntownDweller

Dec 15, 2010, 9:22 PM

seeing as none of us work for your company, care to share a little more info?

Consolidation of valley locations. I'm in the customer-facing side which isn't going to a facility by the prison/AP, but instead to one of 4 floors at city scape..

HX_Guy

Dec 16, 2010, 3:56 AM

UnitedHealthcare of Arizona plans to consolidate its six Phoenix offices and become one of the largest corporate tenants in downtown and southeast Phoenix.

The health insurer, the second-largest in the state behind Blue Cross Blue Shield of Arizona as ranked by total premiums, is about to sign a lease for 107,000 square feet of space at CityScape, a downtown development at First Avenue and Washington Street, and another lease for about 165,000 square feet at the Liberty Cotton Center, 48th Street and Roeser Road near the Tempe border.

By next fall, more than 600 of UnitedHealthcare's workers will begin moving into CityScape, while an estimated 1,100 employees will move into Liberty Cotton Center.

"This relocation reinforces UnitedHealthcare's commitment to this region as both an employer and community partner," Benton Davis, CEO of Western States for UnitedHealthcare, said in a statement.

"Moving our office to downtown Phoenix has long been our preference, and we are proud to further contribute to the city's development efforts."

United Healthcare spokesman Will Shanley said the relocation "makes a lot of sense for us to just kind of bring our employees to a more centralized site, to improve efficiency and effectiveness."

The move will not create new jobs at this time, Shanley said. Executives will move in to the offices at CityScape, while call, claims and the nurse phone-line operations will be based at the Liberty Cotton Center.

Mayor Phil Gordon said UnitedHealthcare had been looking for new office locations for about a year.

"We wanted them to remain in Phoenix and consolidate in Phoenix," said Gordon, who hinted at the company's intention at his "State of Downtown" speech last month.

He said the insurer's move will be an economic boost downtown.

"It provides more support for the different bars, the different restaurants, clothing retailers, and stores that are here and opening soon," he said. "It is more and more becoming a downtown."

Mike Ebert, a managing and founding partner of CityScape's developer, RED Development, declined to say how much the lease is worth, citing company privacy.

However, he said, UnitedHealthcare's move is significant, especially because it is under the corporate umbrella of a Fortune 500 company, UnitedHealth Group.

"There's about 60,000 to 80,000 jobs downtown," Ebert said. "Adding 600 employees is a big deal."

This year, Fortune 500 ranked Minnesota-based UnitedHeath Group, which reported $87 billion in annual revenue, as the nation's 21st-largest company.

It was behind International Business Machines, which had $95 billion in annual revenue, and ahead of Procter & Gamble, which had $79 billion.

Vicelord John

Dec 16, 2010, 4:43 AM

Consolidation of valley locations. I'm in the customer-facing side which isn't going to a facility by the prison/AP, but instead to one of 4 floors at city scape..

Offices for what?

JKPhx

Dec 16, 2010, 5:25 AM

Does this new tenant announcement give any hope for office space above the hotel on the south side of Cityscape or will this company just fill floors in the north tower?

HX_Guy

Dec 16, 2010, 5:27 AM

I believe they are just filling the rest of the space since they are moving in by next fall and there's no way they would have the 2nd tower ready for move in by then. It's a lot of sq ft and with this I would think tower #1 is fully occupied or close to it.

DowntownDweller

Dec 16, 2010, 3:01 PM

Offices for what?

Spending your and my tax dollars in the most efficient way possible. ;)

I'm certain, I won't be sitting on the 17th floor with the rest of the big wigs, since I'm a step or two removed from their pay grades. I'll be on one of the 4 lower floors we have leased. I think 6, 7, 8, and 9. Hell, I don't even think I get an office as we go under corporate guidelines. Gonna be a big adjustment because out of the 27 people in my building who have offices, only 4 of us are eligible for offices under the more stringent corp guidelines. :yuck: I hope my cube has a view.

Oh yeah, I wonder if they'll pay for my parking too. I get $60/mo covered by the company at my current location, I wonder if they'll offer that down town. Probably end up having to pay out of pocket I'm sure.

Classical in Phoenix

Dec 16, 2010, 3:37 PM

DowntownDweller

Dec 16, 2010, 3:40 PM

Downtown Dweller, I am assuming you are talking about the UnitedHealthCare move to CS. You list your location as Midtown Phoenix. Does this mean you office currently at Park Central? If so, what does that mean for that midtown location? How much space and how many employees will be vacating midtown?

I live in Midtown. I work in middle/north Phx currently (sqaw peak Hilton area). I only get down to our midtown location every month or so. There's a crap ton of people at PC, of which, about half I would say are going to CS, the other half going to BFE by the broadway curve.

exit2lef

Dec 16, 2010, 4:40 PM

I live in Midtown. I work in middle/north Phx currently (sqaw peak Hilton area). I only get down to our midtown location every month or so. There's a crap ton of people at PC, of which, about half I would say are going to CS, the other half going to BFE by the broadway curve.

If so, that's unfortunate because it means that while the execs are going to CityScape, some of the call center and back office personnel, who might be more likely to use transit, are actually moving away from light rail to the Cotton Center, which is served only by buses and much harder to get to from Central Phoenix. As good as the UHC move to CityScape sounds, I wonder if the overall picture will actually result in a net increase in job sprawl.

DowntownDweller

Dec 16, 2010, 5:10 PM

If so, that's unfortunate because it means that while the execs are going to CityScape, some of the call center and back office personnel, who might be more likely to use transit, are actually moving away from light rail to the Cotton Center, which is served only by buses and much harder to get to from Central Phoenix. As good as the UHC move to CityScape sounds, I wonder if the overall picture will actually result in a net increase in job sprawl.

You should hear the bitching and moaning of all the people who live in the extreme NW vallely.

Urban Rising

Dec 16, 2010, 5:13 PM

The move is unfortunate for the vacancy rates in midtown and the other locations, however it should be a major benefit to downtown and the overall growth of our core.

More importantly, the tenant will be going into the existing tower. This is a positive and a major help for the possibility that the south tower will be built beyond the 10th floor. No decision has been made yet on the office above hotel and final funding for the hotel has not been approved yet. (It is close, so I hear)

A decision on the office portion above hotel is supposed to occur by April. Increased demand in CityScape & Downtown in general increases the chances.

HX_Guy

Dec 16, 2010, 5:14 PM

So funding has not be been approved for the hotel? Well I guess we now know why it's just sitting there with no activity.

exit2lef

Dec 16, 2010, 5:24 PM

The move is unfortunate for the vacancy rates in midtown and the other locations, however it should be a major benefit to downtown and the overall growth of our core.

Maybe, but while CityScape is within the ultimate city core, Midtown is more core than the Cotton Center. What bothers me is that despite the success of light rail in terms of ridership, many employers are not taking rail proximity into account when situating offices. Just as the FBI is moving employees out of its current local office in Midtown to a remote location in Deer Valley, I wonder how many UHC employees currently taking light rail to Park Central will now find themselves driving to the Cotton Center. I think it's important to look at the whole picture of workplace locations in relation to transit rather than just the success of CityScape and the immediate Downtown area.

DowntownDweller

Dec 16, 2010, 5:29 PM

Maybe, but while CityScape is within the ultimate city core, Midtown is more core than the Cotton Center. What bothers me is that despite the success of light rail in terms of ridership, many employers are not taking rail proximity into account when situating offices. Just as the FBI is moving employees out of its current local office in Midtown to a remote location in Deer Valley, I wonder how many UHC employees currently taking light rail to Park Central will now finding themselves driving to the Cotton Center. I think it's important to look at the whole picture of workplace locations in relation to transit rather than just the success of CityScape and the immediate Downtown area.

I'd bet not 0.5% of UHC employees use LR. I'm the only person of 300 people at this facility which even lives anywhere near a LR stop, and I'm over a mile and a half away as the crow flies. The Phx country club requires me to go either N. or S. to even get to Central.

exit2lef

Dec 16, 2010, 5:34 PM

I'd bet not 0.5% of UHC employees use LR. I'm the only person of 300 people at this facility which even lives anywhere near a LR stop, and I'm over a mile and a half away as the crow flies. The Phx country club requires me to go either N. or S. to even get to Central.

That's unfortunate, but maybe not entirely surprising given the free parking at Park Central. Still, at least Park Central has the potential for access by rail, with employee ridership perhaps likely to increase in reaction to higher gas prices. Many light rail commuters, including me, split the difference by driving to a park-and-ride and then riding the train the rest of the way. I realize that wouldn't work for you, but it does work for many others. In addition, a Midtown location can also be reached via a quick rail transfer after coming into Central Station on an express bus from the suburbs. Cotton Center, however, is hard to reach without multiple transfers on slow local bus routes, often in rough parts of town, making commuting via transit far less likely than in Midtown.

DowntownDweller

Dec 16, 2010, 5:48 PM

That's unfortunate, but maybe not entirely surprising given the free parking at Park Central. Still, at least Park Central has the potential for access by rail, with employee ridership perhaps likely to increase in reaction to higher gas prices. Many light rail commuters, including me, split the difference by driving to a park-and-ride and then riding the train the rest of the way. I realize that wouldn't work for you, but it does work for many others. In addition, a Midtown location can also be reached via a quick rail transfer after coming into Central Station on an express bus from the suburbs. Cotton Center, however, is hard to reach without multiple transfers on slow local bus routes, often in rough parts of town, making commuting via transit far less likely than in Midtown.

PC has some parking nazis too. I've been ticketed even though I have a parking tag for when I attend meetings down there. I just threw the tickets in the trash, but its still a pain.

HX_Guy

Dec 20, 2010, 8:35 PM

The new Fox restaurant at Cityscape will be open Feb. 21st, 2011...interesting name.

http://www.foxrc.com/images/restaurants/hd_Arrogant_Butcher_Temp.gif

http://www.foxrc.com/the_arrogant_butcher.html

HX_Guy

Dec 20, 2010, 10:27 PM

Anyone know what an "interceptor" is? This refers to something on the Patriot's Square block, not the south tower.

Permit# LPRM-1003261 Issue Date 12/20/10 Expires 12/20/11
Permit Description SOUTH BUILDING INTERCEPTOR
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE
Address 11 W WASHINGTON ST PHOENIX AZ 85004 Zoning
L 1 B * REPLAT OF BLOCK 77 QS Q10-27 APN 112-22-107A Dist 08

plinko

Dec 20, 2010, 11:10 PM

It's a grease interceptor for a restaurant (an underground box that accumulates grease waste and then gets cleaned like once every six months)

HX_Guy

Dec 20, 2010, 11:18 PM

Well that's exciting. ;)

NorthScottsdale

Dec 21, 2010, 4:41 PM

The Arrogant Butcher.. Thats an awesome name for a restaurant, in my opinion :) I can't wait to try it out!

Vicelord John

Dec 21, 2010, 5:38 PM

I hope they serve Arrogant Bastard.

SunDevil

Dec 22, 2010, 1:00 AM

exit2lef

Dec 22, 2010, 3:34 AM

Just to get back on the employees using lightrail. If it weren't for lightrail, the VA regional office (about 320 employees) at the corner of Osborn and Central would have 20-30 very pissed off employees as our employee parking is full and we've been hiring a lot of new employees. Some have decided to pay monthly at lots near the building but the majority take lightrail from a park and ride or carpool. Luckily, the federal government will pay for your mass transit pass so all these people have to do is drive to a park and ride and they essentially get free parking.

That's good to hear. My father-in-law works at that office, and I know he drives even though he could take light rail from Christown. At least the VA has an office right by a rail station -- unlike the FBI, which is moving employees from Midtown to Deer Valley. I'd love to see a policy requiring offices of federal and state agencies to be near transit.

gymratmanaz

Dec 24, 2010, 1:45 AM

FUN VIBE at Cityscape. I was just down there at 6PM on Thursday night. There were easily 60 people skating or getting skates on of off. Another 40 in Lucky Strike. 20 in 5 Guys. CVS was constant flow. A good 30 other coming in and out of all clothing stores. Lots of pedestrians on the sidewalk. Charming Charlie bags in hands. It was really cool to see. Music was playing and lots of fun going on. I was impressed with the numbers of skaters, young and old.

davidmperre@gmail.co

Dec 31, 2010, 6:30 AM

Now that cityscape has started construction and is practically done, i think the first design at the top was better looking. i mean the cityscape they built is nice but they need better stores, just sayin. Coming from a teen, i think adding a buckle or a tillies or ollister in the plaza would be awesome! attracting the young folks and making downtown Phoenix more dense and crowded wich means more residentil buildings would have to be put up!

gymratmanaz

Dec 31, 2010, 2:00 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhh. Now it makes sense. :)

HX_Guy

Jan 1, 2011, 9:24 PM

combusean

Jan 1, 2011, 10:39 PM

A Tilly's store averages 6 - 10,000 square feet. No space like that exists downtown to my knowledge. RED had spaces that big in CityScape but they were spoken for before the opening.

On their store locations map (http://www.tillys.com/tillys/stores.aspx), there's a definite "donut hole" around downtown like a bunch of places. That place is cheap enough for me to be able to shop there so it'd probably be a good candidate.

I hear the Urban Outfitters in CityScape is being run in the red and they had $0 in Black Friday sales by something like 10 AM or 12.

I don't consider this a problem, because 1) UO has never closed a store, and 2) They tend to be trailblazers and the surest sign of gentrification in a neighborhood. The Urban Outfitters was to my recollection one of the first chain retail shops of its kind in downtown Tempe and it opened just as that area was starting to turn around as well.

Vicelord John

Jan 2, 2011, 12:56 AM

I'm not convinced that UO will last. On that note Vitamin T looks like its on life support.

exit2lef

Jan 2, 2011, 9:55 AM

Did anyone go to the Cityscape New Years Eve event last night? How was it? From the pictures I'm seeing online, it sort of looks like a flop...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1354.snc4/162671_190281607653033_118100984871096_781868_2895302_n.jpg

Doesn't seem like it's nearly as many people as when they had the performances for their grand opening. Then again there were a lot more options for people last night plus it was cold as shit.

All that, plus the top-billed artist had little name recognition. People remember the band Live, even if their peak was 15 years ago, but the lead singer never became a household name.

I'm not convinced that UO will last. On that note Vitamin T looks like its on life support.

It's frustrating that Vitamin T has reduced its hours within months of opening, just like Viet Kitchen and Verde before it closed. According to the Web site, the original 11 AM - 11 PM hours are now only Fridays and Saturdays. Weekdays, the closing time is at 8 PM, and Sundays, it's now 5 PM, which kills my plans for a family dinner there tonight after some ice skating.

I know that evening hours are tough Downtown, but I wish more restaurateurs realized that it's better to start small, maybe by offering just lunch service initially, and then expand as demand grows. If a business opens with promises of long hours and then can't keep them, it frustrates customers and creates an aura of failure.

Vicelord John

Jan 2, 2011, 5:14 PM

Unfortunately they arent even adhering to those on the website anymore.

I walked there one night at about 6:45 and they were closed. Website said they would be open until 8 that night. A few nights later, I tried going about 10:15 on a Saturday and they were also closed up tight. The third night this happened to me, I lost it with them. I had the foresight to call before I went, even though it was 8PM on a Friday night. I asked the girl who answered the phone what time they would be closing and she replied that she did not know, so I questioned how will I know if I want to come then? She let out a nice hmmmmmmmmmm before I asked if she was drunk. She then told me to hang on and passed me to some guy who said they were closing in about 10 minutes, but if I could get there by then they would give me some of the food they were going to throw out...... ?????? I explained to him that like many before them, people will figure out that they can't trust you to be open when you're supposed to be, and it's a good recipe for failure. It was probably falling on deaf ears, but I went on to tell him I won't patronize them anymore, and will go out of my way to tell everyone else they shouldn't either.

I think back on it and I feel like both employees were intoxicated... just something in their voices. When I walked by after the Suns game on Friday, there was ONE person inside the place, with droves of people walking by it acting like it didn't even exist, and with the party going on in the park, you'd think there would be some people there. Five Guys was PACKED with a line out the door. They are doing something horribly wrong over there besides the hours being inconsistent, and I think it may be as simple as the stupid covers they put on the window, which make the place look dark even when all the lights are on and people are inside.

gymratmanaz

Jan 2, 2011, 6:43 PM

I agree. They think those window covers are advertizing. They make it look like it is not open yet. Once Fox open, more will see it there. Also, when LGO opens, more will see. Right now, the draw is on the other side, where the action is.

KingLouieLouie76

Jan 3, 2011, 4:42 PM

I've only been to Vitamin T once....I believe one of the main issues that it might have been doomed from the start is how small the actual place is...They should consider delivering to nearby residents and businesses.... Also, you're essentially forced to dine outside, who obviously would now w/the frigid temps we've been having here and also the EXTREME heat that we endure in the summer.

Plus, I was somewhat disappointed by the selection. I noticed during the time I was there that several came in...read the menu...then abruptly left without buying anything.

I know it's perhaps too premature to claim a place is doom when not too many anchor tenants are there as of yet, but there are several elements to be already concerned about and might be impossible to rectify.

Vicelord John

Jan 3, 2011, 4:51 PM

I dont think it's too early. I dont think they will make it til more businesses open.

KingLouieLouie76

Jan 3, 2011, 5:39 PM

I dont think it's too early. I dont think they will make it til more businesses open.

If indeed Vitamin T closes there...What would you propose goes in its place? I believe either a small coffee or ice cream shop replaces it.

bwonger06

Jan 3, 2011, 6:05 PM

If indeed Vitamin T closes there...What would you propose goes in its place? I believe either a small coffee or ice cream shop replaces it.

I think LGO is opening a coffee place right next door.

The two things that killed the place was the wall-paper and prices. V-T should have also looked at picking up some of the business from the bars across the street. DT is still missing a great drunk food place (to my knowledge) and V-T could have easily filled this void.

KingLouieLouie76

Jan 3, 2011, 6:17 PM

I think LGO is opening a coffee place right next door.

The two things that killed the place was the wall-paper and prices. V-T should have also looked at picking up some of the business from the bars across the street. DT is still missing a great drunk food place (to my knowledge) and V-T could have easily filled this void.

That's right..I forgot about that coffee place opening up, so disregard that...

Anyways... yeah...I can see how Vitamin T may be expensive for some..especially for the portion size of the meal and such.....

I might be inaccurate here, but I believe Huey's Diner has potential to be a great drunk food place...Finally a 24 hour restaurant w/in the confines of DT Phoenix....

http://www.hueys247diner.com/main/

Regarding the Block Party...I went there after the Suns game (free general admission with my ticket).... It seemed packed considering how cold it was, that there were several other options, plus many still refuse to venture out on the roads with all those "crazies" out there...in spite of the LR....

The issue is that Live hasn't been relevant for several years (in fact I saw them during the '03-'04 Tempe Block Party and they attracted quite a draw).... Also, I don't know if the media really advertised the event except for perhaps Phoenix New Times and also on all of CityScape's social media sites that not too many might not be familiar with.

I caught the tail-end of Metal Elvis and they were quite decent, but them w/the other supporting acts I guess weren't enough to attract what they could have?

Next year it should be more of a success since again all should be 100% in operation...We shall see..... Lord... still wonder "what if" in terms of if Jackson Street Entertainment District ever came to fruition.....

dtnphx

Jan 3, 2011, 7:25 PM

Live was awesome, but he sure doesn't have a marquee name. I can see it now...

Ladies and Gentleman, Live at Cityscape to ring in 2011----

ED KOWALCZYK

Hilarious

As I pointed out a while back it makes for a funny marquee, but this was the time someone with a bit more name recognition would have drawn more people. Also, passed by Vitamin T on NYE. Really small. Plus, only one customer inside while it was buzzing elsewhere. Not promising looking.

renone

Jan 4, 2011, 1:27 AM

I ate at Vitamin T tonight and I really enjoyed it. Good variety, new taste, good service. The portions are small, but considering Downtown Phoenix has a lot of Mexican food lovers and the only place to get Mexican is Matador, I think it could survive if more people experience it.

I think it's too early to write this place off. I talked to who I think was the owner and he was still revising the menu and didn't even have his website done yet. They haven't even started. My understanding is that these places got healthy rent concessions in the beginning, so I would be surprised if they are getting hammered by overhead at this point. I'm not sure it will make it in the long run, but it's way too early to be talking about what will open in place of these guys. I, for one, hope they make it.

Vicelord John

Jan 4, 2011, 1:31 AM

HX_Guy

Jan 4, 2011, 1:43 AM

was the guy you talked to a hippo?

Ouch. No but really, was it this guy? If so, that's the owner...

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bella/aaronmaycityscape.jpg

I tried Vitamin T a few weeks ago and liked it. It was about the time they opened, maybe a week later and I went on the weekend, around 11am and there was a fairly good amount of people there.

I think they need to do a lot more marketing to let people know they are there. Unfortunately for them they don't get the exposure that the places on Central get since that is where everything at Cityscape is centered so far. It should definitely help once more places open on 1st St and I imagine their lunch time has to be pretty busy from people in the office tower and surrounding buildings, no?

bwonger06

Jan 4, 2011, 2:01 AM

I think they need to do a lot more marketing to let people know they are there. Unfortunately for them they don't get the exposure that the places on Central get since that is where everything at Cityscape is centered so far. It should definitely help once more places open on 1st St and I imagine their lunch time has to be pretty busy from people in the office tower and surrounding buildings, no?

It needs to hang on until that side gets built up more. Rasputin, LGO, and the comedy club should feed some more night time customers into the place... hopefully.

gymratmanaz

Jan 4, 2011, 3:24 AM

Also, the Fox restaurant, while competition, will bring light, visibility, and action to the east side.

exit2lef

Jan 4, 2011, 1:00 PM

Another potential factor in Vitamin T's apparent struggle: The dumb way in which CityScape is assigning addresses to its tenants and the lack of directories and wayfinding signs within the project.

Look up Vitamin T, whether on Yelp or the restaurant's own Web site, and the address listed is 1 E. Washington St. Anyone who understands the Phoenix street grid would then expect the restaurant to be on the southeast corner of Central and Washington. Well, it is sort of, but only in the sense that the tower there takes up the whole block. Vitamin T's entrance is over on First Street, though, so the 1 E. Washington address is not helpful.

I asked CityScape staff about this via Twitter, and the response I got was that they were assigning a distinct street address to each buidling. That's how suburban malls designate addresses. For an urban development that is supposed to address the street, it would make far more sense to assign a distinct address to each business. Vitamin T should have an address of 2 S. 1st St., or something like that.

Even worse, even if a customer was determined to find Vitamin T, there aren't a lot of obvious mall-like directories to use and little in terms of wayfinding signs on the street. A friend who lives way up on Happy Valley Road recently drove Downtown just to eat at Vitamin T. She couldn't find the restaurant, and when she asked employees of stores over on the west side of the development near CVS, none of them of them knew where it was. She gave up and went back to the northern hinterlands.

I think the combination of the papered-over windows, an obscure address, and unpredictable hours are making it hard for customers to support Vitamin T, no matter how much they might want to.