Phoenix CityScape Thread [Archive] - Page 23

renone

Oct 20, 2008, 4:10 PM

gymratmanaz

Oct 20, 2008, 4:55 PM

I have been checking on the removal. It is amazing to see them take the sections off of the parking lot. The park was built like a little hill, so the support and parking covering is like a dome. it looks like they will have to rip off the top layer and add or change the support pillars in order to make the top level once again.

I just want that damn park gone. I would so prefer the sight of construction than the eyesore of the remnants of the park....Whew. I feel better now.

HX_Guy

Oct 20, 2008, 8:59 PM

i think it's just the angle and perception. i think it's still 27.

According to the Cityscape website, the floor plate layout for the office tower shows 25 floors...

http://www.downtownphxrising.org/images/upperbank_big.gif

http://www.downtownphxrising.org/images/upperbank_big.gif

AZ KID

Oct 20, 2008, 10:18 PM

But that is for the office floors. Isnt there a couple of floors of mechanical??

HX_Guy

Oct 21, 2008, 6:47 AM

Well I don't know about a couple...usually about 1 floor, but that isnt usually figured into the floor count. So if before it was 27 floors and now it's 25, then they have actually chopped off two floors.

Luke Skyscraper

Oct 21, 2008, 1:45 PM

If you look at the latest Cityscape image on page 110, you can count the floors in the image. It is either 24 or 25 floors, depending on whether the top floor is actually office space, or a facade to hide the mechanical. It clearly is not 27 floors, though.

gymratmanaz

Oct 21, 2008, 1:49 PM

and that is the tower under construction now, 25 stories? How tall is the second tower? I also cannot recall the theoretical start date on the second tower? I wonder how they will work that one. Will they remove the dirt and crane EVERYTHING in? They used the extra space to bring stuff in for the first tower....the second will be interesting to see how they load equipment and material in.... anyone?????

HX_Guy

Oct 21, 2008, 5:38 PM

There is a new crane parked over PSP today. I park uner PSP every day, and they have told us that all of our parking spots have been moved down a floor so they can rip the top off PSP. I have no idea when this is going to happen, but the new crane may indicate that it will be sooner rather than later.

They have already ripped the top off of the parking garage and are now installing new steel beams...I'm curious to see how this will end up looking as the steel beams are a fair amount above grade.

http://nitnelav.com/DTOct202008/7.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTOct202008/11.jpg

The office tower is coming along nicely as well...imagine this view in about a year. :)

http://nitnelav.com/DTOct202008/9.jpg

HX_Guy

Oct 23, 2008, 4:13 PM

A new permit went in today for a "NEW SINGLE STORY BUILDING"...no other details, but I'm thinking its the sales office?

Permit# PRLM-T44044 Issue Date Expires 10/23/10
Permit Description
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

Description/Scope of Work: PRELIMINARY PLAN REVIEW

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: NEW SINGLE STORY BUILDING

HX_Guy

Oct 23, 2008, 7:23 PM

To follow up, the new permit is definitley for the sales and marketing center and will be built on Block 23, which is on the SEC of 1st St and Washington (eastern most block, where the two other towers were supposed to go).

PROJECT DESCRIPTION: SALES AND MARKETING CENTER BUILDING ASSOCIATED WITH THE SOUTH CONDO TOWER ON BLOCK 22. THIS BUILDING SITS ON BLOCK 23.

gymratmanaz

Oct 23, 2008, 8:13 PM

Other two towers ARE supposed to go........I am still hoping for the best....call me a dreamer!

HX_Guy

Oct 23, 2008, 8:21 PM

What do you think the chances are if they are willing to spend the money to put up a sales and marketing center on that lot? Not saying it will never happen, but I'm thinking years down the road...probably during the next building cycle. Even the Cityscape website now only shows two blocks, Patriots and Block 22.

gymratmanaz

Oct 23, 2008, 9:08 PM

It could then become the sales building for the two other towers?

I know. I know. Just hoping a lot.

DER-XE

Oct 24, 2008, 4:34 PM

Hysonk

Oct 24, 2008, 4:58 PM

my understanding is that Novare, the condo developer has "pulled out" so the 2 towers are a no go rt now, however the developer, RED, is working with Colliers to come up with something different, better for that block, more retail and restaurants?? additional hotel?? Dept store??? different condo tower??

Exactly! All this has a silver lining. The project as originally proposed is not going to resemble that at all, but it opens up a prime property for perhaps a much more dynamic project to come at a time when it makes sense. Yes, I would love to see that important parcel get built on now, but I'd rather have something spectacular than craptacular.

HX_Guy

Oct 24, 2008, 6:48 PM

3 floors up...

http://nitnelav.com/DTOct242008/5.jpg

PhxPavilion

Oct 25, 2008, 6:20 AM

Exactly! All this has a silver lining. The project as originally proposed is not going to resemble that at all, but it opens up a prime property for perhaps a much more dynamic project to come at a time when it makes sense. Yes, I would love to see that important parcel get built on now, but I'd rather have something spectacular than craptacular.

I thought those two condo towers looked pretty nice myself, I'm affraid we'll get something craptacular now that they have been cancelled.

HX_Guy

Oct 27, 2008, 6:51 PM

The sales and marketing center seems to be moving forward very quick, they already have a grading permit which leads me to believe it will be built on the current parking lot area, not in place of the old department store on that same block.

The building will be 1 story and approx. 4,000 sq ft.

gymratmanaz

Oct 27, 2008, 7:15 PM

I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING, ON THE LOT AND NOT IN PLACE OF THE BUILDING.

Oops, sorry about the caps.

Also interesting that they will remove the building in November and not build on it, as apposed to leaving the building until they are ready to build. Is that a sign that they want to build ASAP with respect to the market?

HX_Guy

Oct 28, 2008, 5:19 AM

The prelim. site plan review for the sales center is this Thursday, I may try to make it to it as I'm real curious how this will end up.

I'm really hoping that it won't resemble CityNorth's sales center, which looks like a suburban jewelry store (think Jared's at Arrowhead Mall). It would be great if they build it right up against the corner of either 1st and Washington or 1st and Jefferson (facing US Airways Center...great visibility with people walking out)...hopefully lots of windows and an urban design to it, not something built in the middle of the lot with parking spaces in front. I'm thinking it could possibly be converted into leasable space until something happens with that block.

Here is what the sales center of CityNorth looks like...

http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/7/1/2/2/1/ar121098855212217.JPG

andrewkfromaz

Oct 28, 2008, 8:36 PM

Actually, does anyone remember KML development, the people behind Mosaic (right...?) in Tempe? They had a great sales office on 2nd Street and I wanna say McKinley that was really cool. Of course, it was an older building that they totally rehabbed, but the whole thing was pretty great. Big windows with renderings and a model or two in the front, long narrow building so it didn't have too much frontage, but it had very minimal setbacks so you almost had to look at the stuff in the windows. They had nice awnings and IIRC lighting over the sidewalk as well. I wonder what ever happened to that space...

HX_Guy

Oct 29, 2008, 4:00 AM

Another permit associated with the sales and marketing building issued today...this thing is really moving along. The address is 125 E Washington St, so it looks like it will be at the corner of 1st St and Washington fronting Washington St.
I'm thinking they want this thing up and running by the time the convention center, light rail, and the NBA All-Star game are all here.

LARGE PLAN REVIEW-EXPEDITED

Permit# LPRX-0803973 Issue Date 10/28/08 Expires 10/28/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE - SALES & MARKETING CENTER

Address 125 E WASHINGTON ST PHOENIX AZ 85004-2342 Zoning

Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL NEW

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: SINGLE STORY SALES AND MARKETING CENTER ASSOCIATED WITH THE CITYSCAPE CONDO UNITS.

Valuation: $500,000.00

Hysonk

Oct 29, 2008, 5:05 PM

I'm a bit confused. This condo sales center, will it be a permanent building? If they're just looking to have an on site sales center, couldn't they use the existing "basketball building" or at least part of it? Is the address that building or the will they build next to it? Thanks.

HX_Guy

Oct 29, 2008, 6:32 PM

From my understanding, it will be a new building on the parking lot next to the "basketball building". It's a guess...but looking at the permits, including a grading permit, it looks to be a new construction.

HX_Guy

Oct 29, 2008, 11:14 PM

And the permits keep rolling out...good shit! :D

Permit# LPRS-0803991 Issue Date 10/29/08 Expires 10/29/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE BLOCK 77 (ABOVE GRADE STRUC)
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

TYPE OF BUSINESS: NEW RETAIL BUILDINGS

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: TWO RETAIL BUILDINGS, SUB SURFACE GARAGE, IMPORVEMENTS, SITE IMPROVEMENTS AND PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE ASSOCIATED WITH CITYSCAPE BLOCK 77.

Hysonk

Oct 29, 2008, 11:28 PM

Thanks HX for the explanation and the new permit info. Sweet.

HX_Guy

Oct 30, 2008, 8:08 PM

Some new info from a meeting today...

CVS is reportedly on board. No official announcement has been made, but it seem solid and it will be the first pharmacy in downtown Phoenix. They will go in the retail building along Washington towards 1st Ave (triangle shaped building if you remember).

The sales/marketing center is in fact going on the NW corner of Block 23 (the area that is now a parking lot). The "basketball mural" building is coming down by the end of the year...I assume it will be surface parking until further notice?

The apartments have been scapped. We had heard this before, but I guess now it's official.

Central Ave will be closed off for 12 months starting in December so they can expand the parking garage into that area.

gymratmanaz

Oct 31, 2008, 12:37 AM

Progress is progress! So far good news.

kevininlb

Nov 1, 2008, 4:16 PM

Maybe this is an old topic, already discussed.

But, I heard on the radio a day or two ago that AJ's is going to take up two floors. Is that correct? Thought it was only going to be on the 2nd floor, but what do I know?

HX_Guy

Nov 1, 2008, 4:21 PM

AJs was originally announced on going on 2 floors...but someone on here mentioned a little while ago that it had been scaled back and will only be on the 1st floor. I guess we'll see.

Now...going off that...I have a question.

Does 2 story retail ever really work in an urban environment? Do the retailers that end up upstairs ever really get any foot traffic? I'm trying to think of other cities, and aside from downtown malls, I don't recall ever seeing 2 story retail along the street. Arizona Center did it...and that failed. Why does Cityscape think it will work for them?

Not only that, but with the apartments on Block 77 scrapped, all that will be on that lot are two 2-story retail buildings. Pretty sad for such a prime and important piece of land.

plinko

Nov 1, 2008, 5:32 PM

^In that type of environment, no. 2-sided and 2 story retail just doesn't work, unless it's in a mall type setting (which this is going against). It works if you have grade changes in the block (one side higher than the other) or if there's some other destination above (movie theater, etc), but in general it's a loser. Restaurants are the only thing that works like that and those need to be on the corners and ends for maximum visibility.

I've designed a number of 2-4 story retail buildings and inevitably the upper floors become offices.

NorthScottsdale

Nov 2, 2008, 12:13 AM

When I used to live in seattle, there was a QFC on capitol hill that i always went grocery shopping at, and it was 2 stories. But it was crammed into a small space on a busy intersection, so that probably helped make the 2 floors work out for it...

DER-XE

Nov 2, 2008, 3:31 AM

agreed on the 2 story-really only works when the 2 stories are takien up by a single retail or restaurant use - Urban Outfitters - 2 stories in most/all locations-and there are a number of larger retail concepts out there that are in urban locations that do 2 stories-H&M, Barnes&Noble, Zara, Crate&Barrel, ect... most restaurants dont like 2 stories-hard to opperate unless 2nd floor is used for party/event space-the AJ's was changed to single story 10,000 sf about 6 months ago so not sure what will happen in the space above them

PhxPavilion

Nov 2, 2008, 7:47 AM

I noticed the other day that the old JC Penny's building was open, some workers were in there; looked like it was being gutted.

Don B.

Nov 2, 2008, 1:21 PM

Horton Plaza in San Diego is on multiple levels, but I suppose that doesn't count because it is a mall?

--don

plinko

Nov 2, 2008, 6:22 PM

Right. Streetfront retail that is 2+ stories is extremely rare, except of the type of tenants noted by DER-XE, particularly in lower density cities.

HX_Guy

Nov 3, 2008, 7:04 PM

It's all coming down... :D

Permit# LPRM-T44109 Issue Date Expires 11/3/09
Permit Description DEMOLITION OF PATRIOTS SQUARE PARK
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

gymratmanaz

Nov 3, 2008, 8:09 PM

Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AZ KID

Nov 4, 2008, 1:03 AM

Great news... Thanks Hx Guy

HX_Guy

Nov 6, 2008, 1:07 AM

The new ramp off of Jefferson is coming together pretty quick and the parking garage for the officer tower is now at street level. Does anyone know if the office tower will be steel or cast frame?

http://nitnelav.com/DTNov52008/3.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTNov52008/4.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTNov52008/5.jpg

HX_Guy

Nov 6, 2008, 1:43 AM

The demolition permit was also issued today for Patriot's Square Park. The previous was a review permit for the demolition...the one today actually gives them the go ahead, so we could see it come down any day now.

DEM-08025035
1 W WASHINGTON ST
11/5/08 OPEN
DEMOLITION OF PATRIOTS SQUARE PARK

Luke Skyscraper

Nov 6, 2008, 3:04 AM

As always, thanks HX for the great pics!:banana:

glynnjamin

Nov 6, 2008, 6:52 PM

Off the top of my head -

Waikiki has multiple two-level street front shopping centers that work (but real estate is at a premium)
Seattle has a great place that has a best buy with a two story target on top of it. Those sorts of big box places work well for that.
Boston has that street where the basements all have shops in them...Newbury St? That's a strange reversal of the two-story concept.
How about um...Fisherman's Warf in SF? Isn't that 2-story? Actually most of the pier/warf areas that I have been to are open-air, two story shopping areas. Somewhere in Miami (by the Hard Rock) was two-story I think also. Baltimore has one as well.

Clearly though, the second story places just don't get the foot traffic without an anchor or a grade change. I would say build a parking garage with all handicap parking on the first floor and then have the elevator stop at the second floor and let people out. That way, to get to the street, they have to walk by the shops. You put an escalator at the other end and that gets you foot traffic. Seems like an easy fix to just not have the elevator go to the first floor. Wonder if there is a fire code issue with that?

plinko

Nov 6, 2008, 8:38 PM

glynnjamin

Nov 6, 2008, 10:22 PM

^Except that then you have no retail on the first floor at all, just parking. That's not exactly a happy street frontage.

The examples you mention are all decidedly more urban and pedestrian oriented than downtown Phoenix will be in even another 10-15 years. And even in those cases, I guarantee that the 2nd story retail gets less rent for the owners and generates less revenue for the tenants.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. Take a place like AZ Center. People park there for basketball and baseball games. If you closed off the parking garage elevator on the first floor...and made it so that those people had to take the elevator down to the second level...then walk through the second level of the AZCenter to get to the escalators to get to the first level, you would see an increase in foot traffic. There would still be a substantial amount of ground level foot traffic and then, on top of it, you'd have a reason for people to go to the second floor. Basically it doesn't work with current buildings but, if you're starting from the ground up, a new building could do it easily. Think of how the Season Ticket Holder garage is for Chase Field where you take the elevator to the bridge level. If you force people to go a certain way, they will.

Also, cheaper rent is a positive attribute in many urban areas. They provide startups with a place to grow their business. Not every small business can afford $27/sqft like at Taylor Place. There need to be more affordable options and that is one of the things that is suppressing innovation in downtown Phoenix - lack of cheap retail space.

HX_Guy

Nov 7, 2008, 2:37 PM

There seems to be another crane working at Cityscape. It looks to be on Block 22, but it's hard to tell from this webcam. I'll be by downtown today and snaps some pictures.

http://instacam.com/showcam.asp?id=PHBOB&size=L

By the way, you can click on "Time-Lapse" and see the last 24 hours or so...minute by minute (you can fast forward too).

gymratmanaz

Nov 7, 2008, 4:11 PM

It does look like there is another red crane arm on the angle. Maybe it is helping to take away PSP?

NIXPHX77

Nov 7, 2008, 8:25 PM

i saw the crane in action and workers on the site
about 11:45 pm last night. don't recall a 2nd crane.

HX_Guy

Nov 8, 2008, 1:49 AM

The crane was being used to lift equipment on top of the "basketball building"...I'm assuming it's part of the prep work for the upcoming demolition.

http://nitnelav.com/DTNov72008/1.jpg

HX_Guy

Nov 10, 2008, 10:11 PM

A new agreement was signed between the City and RED Development on Oct. 29th. It's some good news...some bad news...I guess. Here is a link to the whole document:

http://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/GetRecDataDetail.aspx?rec=20071183852

In summary, the Phase I tower (office tower now under construction) must be a minimum of 600,000 sq ft from the previous 550,000 sq ft requirement.

The whole plan has now been separated even more. Originally they had to construct all three blocks...then it got split into Block 22/77 and Block 23.
Now...Block 22 has it's own requirements and Block 77 has it's own requirements. RED can develop either block independently and receive their cash payment separately.

The minimum requirements for Block 22 are:

• Completion of Block 22 Parking Garage,
• Completion of Phase I Tower (office tower under construction), and
• Completion within Phase I Tower (or other portions of Block 22) of minimum 64,000 sq ft of aggregate gross building area intended for retail/restaurant use

The minimum requirements for Block 22 are:

• Completion of Garage Repairs,
• Redevelopment of Patriot's Square Park in accordance with the approved Conceptual Master Plan, and
• Completion of minimum 120,000 sq ft of aggregate gross building area intended for retail/restaurant use

Luke Skyscraper

Nov 10, 2008, 10:23 PM

HX,
Does this impact the second tower (Palomar hotel/condo)? Also, if there is the requirement for 50K more feet in the first tower, why does the latest rendering show it at no more than 25 stories (down from 27)?
It is hard to keep up with all the changes to this project!:shrug:

HX_Guy

Nov 10, 2008, 10:29 PM

The Palomar hotel/condo tower is not part of any agreement with the city...RED get's no incentive money for that.

As for the extra 50k sq ft...I assume they can add that to the base...sort of "sprawl it out", it doesn't necessarily have to be added to the top floors and probably won't be seeing how the tower was engineered for a certain height. I assume you can't just add more floors in the middle of construction.

PHX31

Nov 10, 2008, 10:31 PM

How many square feet is the Chase Tower? How does 600,000 ft^2 compare? (including what are each tower's footprint?)

I agree with Luke Skyscraper, this project is pretty hard to follow. I've long since abandoned my hope and/or excitement for this project. Between the shady/elusive/ever-changing renderings and all the agreements that have changed, not to mention the obvious letdowns in project scope and design, I feel our 0,0 will never live up to its potential.

But I'll still check the updates, thanks for the info HX_Guy!

AZ KID

Nov 10, 2008, 10:34 PM

what is the office towers height again? And is that height to the roof or to the very very top of the building?

PHX31

Nov 10, 2008, 10:42 PM

It's very odd to me that any incentives for apartment towers or palomar/condo tower have gone away or were never there to begin with, yet the huge retail/restaurant plan and incentives for Block 22 are still in effect.

If I was a perspective retail or restaurant tenant of CityScape, I would want all the hotels and apartments and whatnot built around the retail for more potential customers. I probably wouldn't sign anything if all that was required to go into CityScape was an office tower. But I guarantee you that RED or whoever is in charge of finding tenants will present the ultimate build-out of CityScape to perspective tenants to entice them into leasing at CityScape. But there's no way that shit will ever get built (at least not until 980398230923 restaurants and retail spots have opened and since failed due to lack of a market area/people).

Plus, I think the City would want the retail and restaurant to succeed, and i'd think they'd think that all parts of CityScape will fuel each other and feed off each other's success. But if they only have requirements for some office and retail/restaurant and zero permanent residents, their investment has less of a chance of reaping dividends.

More people that live there or stay at a hotel => more retail/restaurants perform well and are popular => more people would want to buy and live there => restaurants and retail do even better.

It's a cycle/circle, but take out permanent residents and I don't see how the cycle/circle even gets into motion.

I dunno, it's all f'ed up to me.

HX_Guy

Nov 10, 2008, 10:44 PM

How many square feet is the Chase Tower? How does 600,000 ft^2 compare? (including what are each tower's footprint?)

Other buildings in downtown include:

Chase Tower: 672,000 sq ft
Phelps Dodge Tower: 409,000 sq ft
Colliers Center: 512,000
One Renaissance Square: 491,000 sq ft
Two Renaissance Square: 470,000

The Cityscape tower will most closely resemble Collier's Center in it's footprint. Collier's Center is 512,000 sq ft over 24 floors...or 21,333 sq ft per floor. Translated to a 600k sq ft building, that would mean 28 floors.

...the obvious letdowns in project scope and design, I feel our 0,0 will never live up to its potential.

The biggest disappointment to me at this point is Block 77 and the demise of the apartments. Not only would the residential aspect added much needed residents downtown, but it would have meant 5-6 stories along 1st Ave, which would have provided a much more urban feel. Now we'll have a city block with 3 sides lined by 2-story retail. Yeah...that's exciting.

Hysonk

Nov 10, 2008, 11:45 PM

But the hotel/condo tower is getting a sales office on the last block, and I remember hearing this fall that the 2nd tower was still planning groundbreaking in the spring. Has that changed, or is it just semantics now.

HX_Guy

Nov 11, 2008, 12:03 AM

Nothing as far as I know has changed with the hotel/condo tower. The tower isn't mentioned in the agreement because it is and never was part of any agreement. That tower is all on the developer and has no city involvement.

I thought I had shared this before...or at least meant to but must of gotten side tracked, but here is some information on what is going on with the condo/hotel tower and Block 23.

The hotel/condo tower construction will begin in early '09 with the construction of the southern end of the underground parking garage and the "vertical transportation corridors that travel through the garage" (as they put it...I guess it's a fancy way of saying elevators? Maybe it means something else?)

The sales center building will remain in use until construction on Block 23 begins (something in the future), though I'm not sure if they will lease the building once the condos on Block 22 are sold or what exactly it will be used for.
The rest of Block 23 (where the "basketball mural" building now sits) will be a surface parking lot. Great huh? :/

HX_Guy

Nov 12, 2008, 10:40 PM

http://nitnelav.com/DTNov122008/2.jpg

PHX31

Nov 12, 2008, 10:49 PM

Thanks for the pic, but they've done no apparent work (above ground) in a week?

Since you were down there what progress did you notice?

HX_Guy

Nov 12, 2008, 11:26 PM

Actually they have done some work. If you look at the picture from a week ago here: http://nitnelav.com/DTNov52008/5.jpg you can see that the core now has 3 door opening visible vs only 2 a week ago. Also, there is rebar above street level for the actual tower(lobby section) and the ground floor's floor has concrete poured whereas a week ago it was just the forms in place.

gymratmanaz

Nov 13, 2008, 1:27 AM

It has progressed a lot as HX says. You can't tell from the pics, but below a ton of work has occured. I think by the end of the month they will be working above the ground, noticeable from the street level. That is a lot of work, concidering the garage below and getting floors poured and ready to go up. They need to get a jump on the core and elevators. Once they start going up, it will go pretty fast. Look at OCPE and how they had to get ahead on the elevator core.

Any work or idea on when AND HOW they will start on the south side of the garage and whatever is going on the south side???

kaneui

Nov 13, 2008, 12:08 PM

It's rather sad to watch the original vision for CityScape continually whittled away as the months go by and the economic woes deepen. First to go were the apartment/condo towers, and now it looks like the apartments on the PSP block may be axed. Personally, I even doubt if the shorter version of the hotel/condo tower will be built anytime soon (even though the website says it will be finished in 2010). And their timeline to complete Phase I by late 2009 seems a bit optimistic--judging by their current pace, I'd say sometime in mid-2010 for the office tower and the PSP block retail.

Compare this with the City Creek Center project in Salt Lake, which was planned at nearly the same time, but is pretty much proceeding according to plan and is much further along. We can only hope that downtown Phoenix reaches a sufficient critical mass sometime in the near future so these larger mixed-use projects can be fully realized, and built without major tax incentives or subsidies from the city. Until then, CityScape may end up as another Arizona Center or Colliers Center--full of initial promise, but the final product nothing like we had anticipated.

admdavid

Nov 13, 2008, 4:32 PM

^^^The difference between City Creek and Cityscape is that the LDS Church is building City Creek and the Church has deep pockets and doesn't need to secure financing per se while RED bit off a little more than it could chew, IMHO.

Hysonk

Nov 13, 2008, 4:56 PM

Breaking News!

The Cityscape final plan is to just build a Circle K and a Sonic Drive-In surrounded by acres of surface parking...

It's all about timing. Many projects you see everyday were scaled-back from the original designs and proposals. The computer-punch card building was supposed to have another building mirroring it, Viad Tower also was supposed to have a second building, city hall was was grander originally. We get what we get based on the timeframe from proposal to delivery. I rather get a scaled down version then nothing, or unfinished towers dotting the skyline like Miami. Someday, someone will build something grand, wonderful and as proposed....er, sorry, my meds kicked in...

HX_Guy

Nov 13, 2008, 5:09 PM

I rather get a scaled down version then nothing

Are you sure?

Yes, sometimes that's ok...as in the case of getting 1 of 2 towers, and the other parcel sitting empty until someone develops it later. But what about when the actual building is scaled down and it can't really be undone later? Such as the case with the retail and apartments on Block 77? I mean that retail will undoubtedly be there for the next 20...30+ years, there won't be a second chance to put 3+ stories of apartments on top of them. What's even worse in that situation is the fact that they were apartments. I mean how many apartments do we even have right in the core of downtown? ZERO. It just seems like such a missed opportunity...you really can't find 65 people out of 80,000 that work downtown to rent?

Not only would it have added a lot more visual appeal and height to the street of downtown, adding to the urban feel...but it could have added 65-130 more people living in the core...and residents is the biggest missing piece to downtown in my opinion.

DER-XE

Nov 13, 2008, 5:42 PM

but there in lies the issue - 65 apts does not work economically - its all a numbers game - for every apt built on the block the less the cost of each unit to build - while it would have been great to have the extra 100 people living on the park the cost to build 65 units = high rent on each unit to make it worth while to build them - more blame needs to be pointed at the original park and the garage built - the garage structure would only hold up to 6 stories of building - could tear it out, but that would double the const cost of each space in that garage to close to 70,000 dollars per space - on top of that, the REN Center has a "view corridor" agreement that will NOT allow its views to the south to be blocked........so could not do much anyway

HX_Guy

Nov 13, 2008, 6:03 PM

Good insight DER-XE.

Do both REN towers have the "view corridor" agreement or only the one on the SE corner? Looking at an overhead sat. map of downtown, the apartments were going to go over the western end of Block 77, not obstructing the views from the SE REN tower at all.

I guess I see your point...but was this really discovered later? Wouldn't they have known this about the "view corridors", the maximum of 6 stories, and if 65 apts would make economic sense before they announced the plans?

DER-XE

Nov 13, 2008, 6:13 PM

i think the only thing "discovered" later was the really just the apartment piece, most likely knew garage would not hold more than 6 stories, view corridor is with the city, and really needed final design of park, with public and parks dept comments, to get a layout so they could price it.........

Hysonk

Nov 13, 2008, 8:38 PM

Are you sure?

Yes, sometimes that's ok...as in the case of getting 1 of 2 towers, and the other parcel sitting empty until someone develops it later. But what about when the actual building is scaled down and it can't really be undone later? Such as the case with the retail and apartments on Block 77? I mean that retail will undoubtedly be there for the next 20...30+ years, there won't be a second chance to put 3+ stories of apartments on top of them. What's even worse in that situation is the fact that they were apartments. I mean how many apartments do we even have right in the core of downtown? ZERO. It just seems like such a missed opportunity...you really can't find 65 people out of 80,000 that work downtown to rent?

Not only would it have added a lot more visual appeal and height to the street of downtown, adding to the urban feel...but it could have added 65-130 more people living in the core...and residents is the biggest missing piece to downtown in my opinion.

HX, don't get me wrong, and yes, now that I think about it, of course I mourn what this project could be. However, now that most is lost on cityscape at this point, when things change again, perhaps another project, in another parcel will be that "signature" project we all crave. We've been down this road before and I'm sure we'll be there again. :)

HX_Guy

Nov 13, 2008, 8:40 PM

I guess there is still hope for Block 23 some day to have a new tallest in the core of the city, because aside from that...there aren't that many empty blocks left right in the core.

PHX31

Nov 13, 2008, 9:24 PM

Did you (or someone else) show the FAA approval for the future Luhrs Block tower at 514'? I guess we can look forward to that, no matter how far off it is.

andrewkfromaz

Nov 13, 2008, 10:41 PM

New news? From November's Southwest Contractor's AZ news:

"RED selects DAVIS as CityScape Phase II Architect

Tempe architecture firm DAVIS has been selected by RED Development as the architect for CityScape Phase II which will include a Palomar Hotel by Kimpton, a residential tower and retail shops at street level.

Phase I is currently under construction and Phase II is scheduled to break ground in early 2009."

Sounds like someone's actually finally doing something right? Cross those fingers some more?

AZ KID

Nov 13, 2008, 10:47 PM

sorry old news....

Hysonk

Nov 13, 2008, 11:20 PM

Like Egyptian dirt old...

HX_Guy

Nov 13, 2008, 11:27 PM

Question for anyone with knowledge of construction...

I understand the tower crane for the condo/hotel tower will go up once the southern end of the garage is at grade.

That doesn't make sense to me...doesn't the tower crane need to be anchored into the soil in it's own foundation? I don't understand why the crane wouldn't go up at the time they start on the parking garage, similar to the parking/office tower on the north end of the lot.

My only guess...and fear...is that they are still skeptical about the condo/hotel tower and don't want to set up a tower crane since that part of the project could always be axed, but the parking garage can't.

gymratmanaz

Nov 14, 2008, 1:46 AM

OCPE didn't really have underground construction to speak of and that crane went up when the little foundation that is was complete. I suppose they could do the garage and then add the crane....Although i thought I read somewhere that they were going to use the same crane for both. Anyone know about that?

combusean

Nov 14, 2008, 1:53 AM

I would wager the crane will be on the far west side of the lot to avoid issues with swing. Remember how the Sheraton was being built with two cranes, one higher than the other? That's the only way I see this happening. If the base of the ramp is on the west side, I don't see any issues with building the crane foundation normally. If the condo/hotel tower crane is tall as I think it's going to be (above the office crane) I would guess it would be bolted into the existing garage from its initial installation.

I have a feeling the second crane will start being built once there's plenty of clear height on the office tower so the office tower's crane (and really the other one too) can spin 360 degrees and not ram into anything (the other crane or building). The two will rise at a staggered pace keeping this in mind until one of the structures is finally taller than the other.

This is a PITA to diagram, but the office tower crane is always higher:

========= 1st St
####
-----+-
#### ####
#### ####
#### ####
-+-----
####
========= Central
OFC CND

HX_Guy

Nov 14, 2008, 8:52 PM

Going back to the apartments...

I attended the grand opening of CityNorth last night and part of that project are for-rent apartments. From what I understand, the first phase includes 60 apartments and 60 for-sale condos.

The apartments are going for $1500+ for a 1 bedroom and $2300+ for a two bedroom. Frankly I think those prices are outragous, but when you think that a condo starts at $400,000 for a 1 bedroom, your mortgage would be around $3000, so renting is about half.

Now the question is...why was CityNorth able to pull it off and build these and Cityscape can't? Do they feel that there isn't the market for that high priced rentals in downtown? Personally, while I liked the CityNorth apartments and condos, I would much much rather live in downtown for the same prices.

Urban Rising

Nov 14, 2008, 9:45 PM

City North never intended to build apartments. They were all designed to be condos and when the real estate market recovers will be sold as condos. City North could not achieve enough sales between the two buildings so they converted one of the Buildings to apartments, because they were to far along in the construction process to go back.

Additionally, there are rumors of some potential redesigning again on Tower 2. Funding for condos right now is ridiculous. It takes a mininum of 50% (Hgher is typical) hard money before they can put a shovel in the ground.

Early '09 is a pipe dream at this point.

HX_Guy

Nov 14, 2008, 9:50 PM

Additionally, there are rumors of some potential redesigning again on Tower 2. Funding for condos right now is ridiculous. It takes a mininum of 50% (Hgher is typical) hard money before they can put a shovel in the ground.

Early '09 is a pipe dream at this point.

I guess that further explains why they are looking to build the south end of the parking garage before setting up a crane for the actual tower. I'm guessing the tower will be on hold for a while, maybe a long while, and will resemble the pad next to Collier Center (which also has an underground parking garage that I assume was supposed to connect to the hotel tower above).

Any insight on what those potential redesigns might be? Just hotel maybe? No condos?

Urban Rising

Nov 14, 2008, 10:08 PM

My understanding is all options are open at this point, from office above hotel, just hotel, shrinking the height on the condos above the hotel. It all unfortunately rumors at this point. There are no concrete facts yet, just that the schedule is sliding.

The credit markets are having a huge impact on all projects currently planned. The $1 billion plus already approved for the universities from the state is currently held up in a review committee, which has delayed the ISTB IV project, and potentially impacted the Az Biomedical Collaborative Phase II.

HX_Guy

Nov 14, 2008, 10:16 PM

It's definitely a mess out there with the financial situation...I guess we should count our blessings if any sort of tower rises on the southern end of the block within the next year.

If there is any positive news out of that...it does sound like the hotel is a component of any variation they end up with, which is a good thing.

AZ KID

Nov 14, 2008, 11:02 PM

The only positive I see in not constructing the south tower is that maybe in 2 to 3 years we could get our new tallest....

DER-XE

Nov 15, 2008, 5:03 PM

South tower will happen sooner than that, has to happen sooner as there are retail and restaurant tenants on the first two stories as well as the hotel lobby on the second floor. Those tenants are being given a late 2009 early 2010 sched and since it is the first few floors to be built above grade, tenants can take delivery while rest of tower is going up, and at a floor a week one they start swinging steel it will go up pretty quick

HX_Guy

Nov 15, 2008, 5:29 PM

It would be great if it does go up sooner...but if they are still throwing ideas around of what exactly should be built?

At this point, it almost seems to make sense to just build a hotel and but engineer it be able to build on top of it at a later time. It's now uncommon for a high-rise to be expanded at a later time and it would seem to make the most sense in this case.

DER-XE

Nov 15, 2008, 6:42 PM

i dont think they are still throwing round ideas of what to build - they are building a "sales" ofc on 23 for the condos - the only condos are the ones on top of the hotel, they have sold the other tenants, ofc and retail, on there being a hotel and condos on block 22 and you are correct i dont believe they would stop at the top of the hotel and come back later and but a crane back up and start new const on top of the existing......i think we will see it all go up at once

HX_Guy

Nov 15, 2008, 6:50 PM

Good point on what they already sold to the other tenants...AJs and PF Changs could potentially back out if no condos or no hotel are built to support their businesses.

HX_Guy

Nov 19, 2008, 4:39 PM

The "basketball buidling" should start coming down any day as the permit was issued 10/30 and they have to commence demolition by 11/30 or the permit is void.

Permit# DEM-08024619 Issue Date 10/30/08 Expires 12/29/08
Permit Description BARRON COLLIER BUILDING PARTIAL DEMO
Project 01-1842 125 E WASHINGTON ST

Description/Scope of Work: DEMO PERMIT ONLY

************************************************************************************

*THIS PERMIT SHALL EXPIRE BY LIMITATION AND BECOME NULL AND VOID IF THE WORK IS NOT COMMENCED WITHIN 30 DAYS AND IS NOT COMPLETED WITHIN 60 DAYS OR IF ACTIVE AND CONTINUOUS DEMOLITION WORK IS SUSPENDED OR ABANDONED FOR ANY PERIOD OF 5 DAYS OR MORE PRIOR TO FINAL COMPLETION AND CLEARANCE OF ALL DEBRIS FROM THE SITE. REASONABLE AND CONTINUOUS PROGRESS SHALL BE MADE TO COMPLETE ALL DEMOLTION WORK AS EXPEDITIOUSLY AS POSSIBLE.

DESCRIPTION OF WORK:
DEMOLITION OF THE FIRST TWO FLOORS OF THE BUILDING-FOUNDATION/SLAB/BASEMENT PARKING STRUCTURE TO REMAIN