Phoenix CityScape Thread

[Vicelord John]

hx, i don't see where any names are filtered out on that building.

all I see is that orange baclcony cut out on the top.

[HX_Guy]

That's an orange balcony? It looks like some sort of sign to me, but you might be right.

[Vicelord John]

in the second drawing you can see the glass fence and clearly see it is cut into the building... also I think a person standing in there.

[wissundevil06]

Really don't think it's supposed to be an "orange" balcony.

[Vicelord John]

looks obvious to me that its 3 dimensional... it is cut out of the building and happens to be level with the roof. Look REAL close at the bottom pic.

[vwwolfe]

It's definitely a balcony.

[Tfom]

looks obvious to me that its 3 dimensional... it is cut out of the building and happens to be level with the roof. Look REAL close at the bottom pic.

I think this confirms that Cityscape is moving WAY to slow for most of our liking.

[BigBuilder]

It's fantastic to have a project this big getting started now when most huge projects in the United States are half done. Cityscape will reap huge profits for having the vision to build at the right time in the cycle.

[loftlovr]

^For contractor prices- yes, for sales of highrise condos- not so much....
Maybe things will clear up in the next few years and those condos will be more desirable. I wonder if the prices will be similar to 44 Monroe or not.

[HX_Guy]

A clearer rendering of the entire project...the original picture is 3681x2293 and 8.3MB and can be downloaded below, you can see some really good detail.
The top of the condo/hotel tower, the orange sign...is definitely a sign and not a balcony...although it doesn't look like they have anything blurred out.


http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CItyscapeBig.jpg


http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CItyscapeBig2.jpg

[alexjon]

SWOON

New favorite non-Seattle project!

[HooverDam]

HX_Guy/anyone....didn't previous renderings show the roof above AJs being green? I thought that was going to be a green roof, perhaps I'm mistaken.

[HX_Guy]

There used to be a couple of the rooftops that were green...I guess that's been dropped from the plans?

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/PDCityScape1.jpg

[BA744PHX]

A clearer rendering of the entire project...the original picture is 3681x2293 and 8.3MB and can be downloaded below, you can see some really good detail.
The top of the condo/hotel tower, the orange sign...is definitely a sign and not a balcony...although it doesn't look like they have anything blurred out.


Well at least in this rendering one of the condo towers is back. Would this be the one with Twelve Hotels?

[gomoso22]

Pixs

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8569/img0001dx7.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0001dx7.jpg)

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6039/img0004ox2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6039/img0004ox2.de05f29ff7.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=125&i=img0004ox2.jpg)

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3514/img0009iw7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3514/img0009iw7.9e0c0c1a49.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=125&i=img0009iw7.jpg)

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5950/img0006ji5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5950/img0006ji5.67042ee4f7.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=125&i=img0006ji5.jpg)

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9402/img0005mc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9402/img0005mc6.8427b9ddb4.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=233&i=img0005mc6.jpg)

[HX_Guy]

Hey hey...an actual building permit has been issued. Looks like the permit includes demolition of the surface structures, which I assume includes the large white ramada thing?

Permit# BLD-T476678 Issue Date Expires 5/12/10
Permit Description NEW PARKING GARAGE RAMP

Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL REMODEL

PROJECT NAME: CITYSCAPE - BLOCK 77 STRUC/MECH/ ELEC

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: DEMO OF EXISTING SURFACE STRUCTURES & INSTALLATION OF NEW VEHICLE RAMP IN EXISTING GARAGE. REMODEL TO AFFECTED M/P/E SYSTEMS. NEW STRUCTURAL WORK IS WITHIN THE RANGE OF GRID XA TO XF AND GRID X4 TO between grids X6 & X7 ON P1 AND LEVEL 1 (STRUCTURAL WORK North of GRID XF ON S106.8 is NOT INCLUDED IN THIS PERMIT PACKAGE). No work on new elevators or escalators included for this permit. Emergency phones shall be maintained during demolition and construction or elevators will be removed from service during any interruptions. Egress and lobby lighting shall be maintained during demolition and construction or elevators will be removed from service during any interruptions.

[BigBuilder]

The owner of the Summit said Condo sales have been steady since November. The fact that he said that while we are in the slow part of the cycle is amazing and bodes well for CityScape! :skyscraper:

[HX_Guy]

This is one damn big hole...

Question though...how are they going to excavate the remaining soil and still be able to get the dump trucks out? Or is there a different method...do they need to build ramps that will later be unassembled? How does this work?

http://nitnelav.com/DTMay2208/31.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTMay2208/33.jpg

The old parking entrance is just about covered up...

http://nitnelav.com/DTMay2208/32.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

They will use a crane to remove the remaining dirt....So says a workman I talked to.

It has been and is cool watching the way they build, tear down, and rebuild dirt ramps to get the cement walls installed. It will be fun to see when the hole is finished.......Crane caan't be too far away....month or so????

[CANUC]

Just a couple of observations, I’ve been watching the development of the 24th on Camelback office building which is essentially as the same phase as Cityscape. The whole while I’ve thought ‘man that’s a big hole’ but yesterday I passed by Cityscape and I was blown away. Holly crap that SOB is freaking huge it makes the one at 24th look like a pot hole. This picture doesn’t do it justice. You really need to see it in person to appreciate the scale of this thing.
This is one damn big hole...

Question though...how are they going to excavate the remaining soil and still be able to get the dump trucks out? Or is there a different method...do they need to build ramps that will later be unassembled? How does this work?

http://nitnelav.com/DTMay2208/31.jpg

[HX_Guy]

You definitely have to see it in person to get the scale of this thing, it's massive.

The only thing in the picture that really makes an impression is the one yellow tractor at the bottom of the hole near the far wall. Look at that, and imagine that as a full size tractor that is usually what, 10' high, and look how small it looks compared to the depth of the hole.

[HX_Guy]

Looks like they are wanting to start work on Patriot's Square block soon...

ABANDONMENT

Application:V080036A
Applicant:Red Development, LLC
Subject: Portions of right-of-way for Washington, Central, Jefferson, and 1st Ave. adjacent to Block 77.

[gymratmanaz]

I hope they move the trees somewhere useful, and not just rip them out.

[PHXistheBEST]

Ok I am going to give my opinion on Cityscape so I expect to be attacked and also know my problem with this project has already been brought up. Chase Tower was built back in the 1970s as the city's tallest building. I understand that SkyHarbor is a reason PHX does not have any super talls. But the green light was given for over 500 feet tall and now we are hearing 400 feet.

Its time for Phoenix to have a new tallest building. I for one am pissed. As the nations 5th largest city in population and covering more land then Chicago and Philly combined I would like to see PHX flex some muscles. I do not think the City should have 100 floor skyscrapers and probably never will. But its time for something new its time for a new tallest building.

[PhxPavilion]

Just a couple of observations, I’ve been watching the development of the 24th on Camelback office building which is essentially as the same phase as Cityscape. The whole while I’ve thought ‘man that’s a big hole’ but yesterday I passed by Cityscape and I was blown away. Holly crap that SOB is freaking huge it makes the one at 24th look like a pot hole. This picture doesn’t do it justice. You really need to see it in person to appreciate the scale of this thing.

Do any of you remember the Convention Center north building hole? Now that was massive.

[gymratmanaz]

I was going to say the same thing....Convention Center hole was ginormous!!!

[gomoso22]

Ok I am going to give my opinion on Cityscape so I expect to be attacked and also know my problem with this project has already been brought up. Chase Tower was built back in the 1970s as the city's tallest building. I understand that SkyHarbor is a reason PHX does not have any super talls. But the green light was given for over 500 feet tall and now we are hearing 400 feet.

Its time for Phoenix to have a new tallest building. I for one am pissed. As the nations 5th largest city in population and covering more land then Chicago and Philly combined I would like to see PHX flex some muscles. I do not think the City should have 100 floor skyscrapers and probably never will. But its time for something new its time for a new tallest building.

I can't agree more. I would love to see a couple of 800 footers somewhere in downtown... why not?
Other cities around the country and the world are gearing up for massive ones and here in Phoenix it just seems that we are behind.

[HooverDam]

why not?

1. No demand
2. Sky Harbor is nearby

[PHXistheBEST]

I do not know about 800 feet it sure would be nice. But Cityscape was given the OK to go by the FAA to go over 500 feet. They said it would not be a issue. We also have to understand the market is not what it was which is fine then I would rather see one small tower eliminated and the tallest one made taller then. Maybe add some more to the park where the smaller tower would be. Phoenix is getting there its just that because its been behind it will take it some time to catch up. But yea I agree 800 feet would be great.

The City is just so concerned about SkyHarbor.

I can't agree more. I would love to see a couple of 800 footers somewhere in downtown... why not?
Other cities around the country and the world are gearing up for massive ones and here in Phoenix it just seems that we are behind.

[HX_Guy]

I don't think that combo would work, I've never seen it done before...office, residential, and hotel...or even just office/hotel in the same building.

Residential/hotel lends well together because of the amenities and lifestyles of each. If you see someone in the hotel lobby in a bathrobe, it wouldn't be too strange...but in an office building?

[Tfom]

I don't think that combo would work, I've never seen it done before...office, residential, and hotel...or even just office/hotel in the same building.

Residential/hotel lends well together because of the amenities and lifestyles of each. If you see someone in the hotel lobby in a bathrobe, it wouldn't be too strange...but in an office building?

I tried it once on casual Friday. It didn't turn out well. In hindsight... I guess I should have tied my belt a little tighter... and worn some pants.

[AZ KID]

So it has been almost three weeks since the demo permit for block 77 was submitted. Has anyone noticed anything significant going on??

[HooverDam]

So I was working on a crew today that was shooting some B-Roll downtown and we were granted access to Patriots Square Park (we were shooting the faces of Phelps Dodge, Renaissance, etc). I talked to one of the project managers and he swore up and down that CityScape will be a new tallest...so take that for what its worth.

[AZ KID]

I would love to have a new tallest but find it incredibly hard to believe.

[JAHOPL]

"I talked to one of the project managers and he swore up and down that CityScape will be a new tallest...so take that for what its worth."

It sure is a deep hole ......

[HX_Guy]

FAA tower crane permit: 558 FT!!!

Work schedule: 7/01/2008 - 07/31/2010

That's one tall fucking crane! Wow...imagine that on the skyline...taller then Chase tower by a whopping 80 ft!

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=578729

Anyone remember the tower crane height for 44 Monroe and the Sheraton? I want to say the 44 Monroe crane was somewhere around 450'?

[admdavid]

FAA tower crane permit: 558 FT!!!

Work schedule: 7/01/2008 - 07/31/2010

That's one tall fucking crane! Wow...imagine that on the skyline...taller then Chase tower by a whopping 80 ft!

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=578729

Anyone remember the tower crane height for 44 Monroe and the Sheraton? I want to say the 44 Monroe crane was somewhere around 450'?

Maybe they are being all hush-hush and are really going to build a new tallest. Well, one can hope, right? :)

[tempedude]

FAA tower crane permit: 558 FT!!!

Work schedule: 7/01/2008 - 07/31/2010

That's one tall fucking crane! Wow...imagine that on the skyline...taller then Chase tower by a whopping 80 ft!

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=578729

Anyone remember the tower crane height for 44 Monroe and the Sheraton? I want to say the 44 Monroe crane was somewhere around 450'?

hmmmm....wonder if we are going to get a taller tower than what we have been expecting lately...one can hope :yes:

[HX_Guy]

Did a bit of digging of other downtown towers, their height, and the height of the tower crane...


44 Monroe - Building: 378' Crane: 460' Difference: +82'

Summit Copper Square - Building: 253' Crane: 313' Difference: +60'

Central Park East - Building: 383' Crane: 440' Difference: +57'


So it looks like 60' - 80' is about what they go above the top of the building, making a 558' crane capable of building a 500' tower. :D

[Don B.]

This is cool news (558' for the crane), but on average (based on the foregoing information), it appears that the crane sits about 70' above the tallest part of the skyscraper under construction it services. If this math holds true, Cityscape's tallest might end up being near the same height as Chase (483'), much taller than the 425' we heard about previously.

One thing to consider - probably at Cityscape's location, 558' is the absolute tallest any manmade structure could get (without really pissing off the FAA, Sky Harbor, etc), so if the developer was going to pull a New York on us (see the historical race between Chrysler and the Empire State Building) and build taller than expected or announced, there may be ways to eke out a little more height within that 70' variance.

So we might be getting a new tallest after all. 500' would make my day, that's for sure.

--don

[HX_Guy]

Yea, but two of the three towers referenced had tower cranes 60' or less above the tallest part of the building, so 558' could easily do 500'.

[Don B.]

^ Maybe. I won't bust out the party balloons just yet, though.

--don

[gymratmanaz]

Please oh Please oh Please.

So when might they have to announce the planned height, or is it possible we would just have to wait to see as it goes up???

[HX_Guy]

Looking at the FAA map of the location of the crane...

http://nitnelav.com/CScranespot.jpg

It looks like this is for the office tower on the NE corner of the lot, not so much for the SW hotel/condo tower...no?

Is it even possible to build two towers with one crane? Doesn't seem very efficient and I doubt it could span that much.

[plinko]

^Somehow I doubt the FAA map is that accurate.
My guess is that there will be a crane for each tower (especially given the issues of two different heights).

So I'd expect to see another crane permit soon if they are also building the 2nd tower.

Who knows about the height...

[PHX31]

Great digging around HX_Guy...

now we need someone to go look around at other buildings recently built (maybe in San Diego because their airport is close, and then in Denver where the airport doesn't matter) and get a real average of the difference in height between the FAA approved tower crane height and the final height of the building.

You may really be on to something dude!

(ps, i can't look for the info myself)

[HX_Guy]

^Somehow I doubt the FAA map is that accurate.

You'd be surprised...take a look at these recent projects and the location of the tower crane in relation to the city block.

44 Monroe: Right in the middle of the block, where the crane was actually positioned.
http://nitnelav.com/44Monroecranespot.jpg

Central Park East: Again in the middle of the block, where the current crane stand.
http://nitnelav.com/CPEcranespot.jpg

[AZ KID]

I dont get it. Is there any chance that the office tower could be the new tallest? The office tower is supposed to start construction first or has that changed too... It is all so confusing.

[HX_Guy]

Ok, here's what I'm getting...and sorry to rain on the parade...

The office tower will be approx. 385' and the hotel/condo tower will be approx. 420'. There will be a total of three cranes on site, one for the office tower and two for the hotel/condo.

This part isn't confirmed, but I'm guessing the first crane is so tall because they have to stagger them all to clear each other. So, you might have crane #1 at 440', crane #2 at 500' and crane #3 at 558'.
Sheraton had a similar setup where one crane was taller then the other.

[AZ KID]

bummer..... where is that info from?

[Viperlord]

:previous:

something to think about....

These are pictures that are taken of the City Creek Center project in Downtown SLC. The cranes for Cityscape might be the derrick type cranes as well. The derrick type cranes can stretch pretty dang high with those arms. On our project the large standard cranes are being used for towers, the derrick type cranes are being used for 8-10 story buildings and parking.

Same thing with the 222 Southmain project here in SLC. There is one large crane for the tower, and a derrick crane for the lowrise portion and parking structure.

Hope that gives you guys something to think about..,,,

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/jtylerlloyd/0522080748.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2518551475_9ba23c34b0_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2519371730_58ed6217cd_b.jpg
pics taken by t-mac

[tempedude]

ummm...for a 400+ ft tower...they are going to use a derrick crane?...a couple of the towers at cityscape are more than parking garages and a derrick crane is not going to be 558 ft high ever for that

[Viperlord]

ummm...for a 400+ ft tower...they are going to use a derrick crane?...

They use derrick cranes all the time for towers over 400 ft tall. they anchor them to the core, and lift them as the building goes up.

I was more relating to the idea of multiple cranes on a block. and staggering them.not so much on height.

anyways, just speculating.

[tempedude]

They use derrick cranes all the time for towers over 400 ft tall. they anchor them to the core, and lift them as the building goes up.

I was more relating to the idea of multiple cranes on a block. and staggering them.not so much on height.

anyways, just speculating.

I see what you are saying...:tup:

[neworleans]

many of the cranes used to build the 600+ ft skyscrapers in las vegas were darrick cranes

[HX_Guy]

Are you guys calling the luffing tower crane a derrick crane, or is the derrick crane different?

A luffing tower crane looks like this...
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/mark3333/yorkville.jpg

Whereas a derrick crane is this...at least according to a picture search on Google...
http://www.vertikal.net/images/stories/003097.jpg


Looking at the FAA map and at aerial views on local.live.com of the tower cranes at the Summit Copper Square and Centerpoint in Tempe construction sites...a standard tower crane (as used in those projects) would have too long of a boom to clear the Phelps Dodge building when swingings around since the crane will be working in the northeast direction from where it will be positioned.
It looks like they will be using a luffing crane, which has the boom at a more vertical angle, wherefore making it much taller and solving our question.

[gymratmanaz]

Can't wait to see how they remove the final dirt ramp. I think they will dig down deeper than needed and then use the ramp dirt as the final flooring. Then all they have to do is crane out the last pieces of equipment.... Or they will just have the cranes scoop out the ramp.....

When will we know their height plans for sure? HX_Guy??? You seem to find those facts easiest of all....Get on it! :)

[HX_Guy]

I posted them a bit earlier...385' for the office tower and 420' for the hotel/condo tower.

As for the dirt ramps...they have now moved the dirt ramp to the southeast side of the hold and are digging/shoring the north end of the hole where the previous ramp was.

New:
http://nitnelav.com/DTJune6th/4.jpg

Previous:
http://nitnelav.com/DTMay2208/31.jpg

Once all the walls are done, they will most likely leave some equipment down there to break down the dirt ramp and use a clamshell bucket to remove the dirt and then remove the equipment by crane.

http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/005/5434.jpg

[tempedude]

^Cool.

As for the tower height...385ft puts the Wachovia tower in the same height range as One Central Park East and 44 Monroe right? The hotel/condo tower at 420ft makes it taller than the US Bank tower, the white tower directly across the street from 44 Monroe. The US Bank building is 411ft and second only to Chase at 485ft right? So. If my figures are correct, the new hotel/condo tower at Cityscape will become the second tallest in the downtown core. Anyway, both of of those new towers at Cityscape and One Central Park East are going to make a huge impact on the skyline, new tallest or not.

[neworleans]

Are you guys calling the luffing tower crane a derrick crane, or is the derrick crane different?

sorry, i was talking about the luffing tower crane... i get them interchanged sometimes. I remember now, because they used a temporary derrick crane on the hoover dam bypass (not that that has anything to do w/ this forum)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/2563016307_77a1227836_o.jpg

[HX_Guy]

This isn't good...

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/othercities/phoenix/stories/2008/06/09/story6.html?b=1212984000^1646794&page=1

The article is about Rich Dozer, but part of the article mentions Cityscape:

"He wasn't planning to start a new job, especially with his latest business venture, CDK Partners, foundering. That real estate development company -- headed by Dozer, Diamondbacks Managing Partner Ken Kendrick and Cardon Development founder Don Cardon - recently pulled out of the condominium project it was slated to build as part of the CityScape development in downtown Phoenix.

With lending woes, liquidity issues and a battered local real estate sector, Dozer said the timing of the condo project "couldn't have been worse."

I don't know if it's talking about the condo towers that were slated for the 3rd block (Block 23) or if this is part of the hotel/condo tower on Block 22.

[Luke Skyscraper]

Has anyone heard any updates since HX_Guy posted that Rich Dozer is pulling out of the Condo portion of CityScape? Some updated photos would be great! I can only watch from afar since I (regretably) left Phoenix for a job in Boston. The CityScape thread has been quiet, which is worrisome........

[gymratmanaz]

The hole is getting closer and closer. I bet they will be done with it by the end of this month!!!!!!

What happens next? Cranes? Cement?

[Don B.]

^^ Welcome to the force -- err, forum, Luke.

Phoenix is your father...

Ahh, the puns abound with such a username. :D

:borg:

--don

[Luke Skyscraper]

Don B,
Phoenix is my father! It all makes sense now! It always seemed like I heard heavy breathing when I lived there! I thought I was being stalked or in "Scary Movie."
Seriously, I am looking forward to photos and updates on CityScape and other DT projects. Invigorating banter and dialog a bonus!

[tempedude]

so, I have a big question. OK, CDK pulled out of the Condo Phase at Cityscape because of the market conditions. Can anyone confirm if those are part of block 22 currently under construction now, or was that block 23.

I'd be inclined to think that block 22 is going ahead with the hotel and condo phase. (remember...there are 3 other major investors involved with cityscape).

I guess the old patriots park redevelopment plans are still in place.

There is a ton of specualtion here, but no solid facts. Can anyone find out and clear up with whats really going on with cityscape.

[Vicelord John]

Cityscape is going to be round two of collier center.

[HX_Guy]

I've tried to find out some details about CDK pulling out and haven't had any luck. I'm hoping that they were part of block 23 and not block 22.

Hopefully block 22 still goes forward as planned.

[HX_Guy]

Another tower crane permit has been filed with the FAA, this one at 490 FT with a project work schedule of 07/15/2008 - 07/15/2010.

The first tower crane permit seems to have disappeared...the link for it no longer works and it doesn't come up on any search on the FAA site. I don't know if this new permit is for tower crane #2 or if it replaces the permit for tower crane #1 which was 558 FT with a work schedule of 7/01/2008 - 07/31/2010.

On the FAA map, this second tower crane is slightly further south then crane #1, but still on the eastern side of the block.

First FAA crane permit:
http://nitnelav.com/CScranespot.jpg

Second:
http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecranefaa2.jpg

Another thought is that the first crane, at 558', got denied by the FAA and they are having to use a traditional tower crane (shaped like the letter T) which would require that it's placed further south to clear the buildings on the north side of Washington St.

Final thought...of course I'm hoping it really is for a second crane which would mean a second tower. :yes:

[AZ KID]

:yes: Another building permit issued today. :yes:

Permit# BLD-T480208 Issue Date Expires 6/25/10
Permit Description BELOW GRADE PARKING GARAGE - PHASE 1
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 1 E WASHINGTON ST 85004 Zoning
L 1 B * REPLAT OF BLOCK 22 QS Q10-28 APN 112-27-125 Dist %

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL NEW

[gymratmanaz]

WHAT???? AZ KID got a permit listed before you HX_Guy? WHat is happeneing????? :) :) :)

[AZ KID]

:haha: Just got lucky :haha:

I doubt it will ever happen again. I mean what are the chances :rolleyes:

[gymratmanaz]

Now we need HX_Guy to swoop in and tell us what it all means.

[HX_Guy]

Look at that...I leave home for a couple hours and this happens?! :p

I can still contribute to it though... :D

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: New five level below grade parking structure. This is the below grade potion that will have a future office tower, hotel, and retail plaza above. The scope of this permit covers all the structural features, concrete walls, and conc elevator shafts and pits, electrical conduit and water and sewer piping to the grade level.

Umm...notice it says nothing about "condos" or "residential" in the description...just office, hotel, and retail plaza. Should we be worried?

[tempedude]

Couldn't someone here on the forum write a letter or email and ask the developer what the current status and plans are for Cityscape? I am sure they have a PR person who would be glad to devulge some information.

[HX_Guy]

I tried...got no answer back.

[tempedude]

Crapola...why all the secrecy surrounding this thing?

[gymratmanaz]

Nice job HX_Guy, You contributed good!!!!! LOL

I kinda figured you would know the skinny on hte permit.....If you wrote and couldn't get answers from the Cityscape PR people.....who can?

[andrewkfromaz]

I kinda figured you would know the skinny on hte permit.....If you wrote and couldn't get answers from the Cityscape PR people.....who can?

No one can. There are no all-knowing "PR" people. The developers' plans are still extremely fluid at this stage. Even if you could know something about what they're planning or thinking right now, I highly doubt it would be good news - probably throw the entire Phoenix forum-goers into a deep depression from which we'll never fully recover.

[PHX31]

The fact that anything will be built at this location is a feather in my cap. I literally thought those parcels would be parking lots until the day I die. It sucks we may not get the ultimate project, but anything is fine. I'm more interested in other projects downtown to care (or be depressed) about CityScape.

[HX_Guy]

Ehh...I wouldn't go as far as saying that anything built is good...what if we ended up with an AZ Center type of project, would you still feel the same?

I think we will definitely get the office tower and the ground floor retail/restaurant spaces...the hotel very likely...the condos probably have the least chance of happening. I could even see them building the hotel portion (12 stories) being built and leaving a pad area on top for condos at a later time. Apparently if you plan for this ahead, it can be done.

I don't get why they don't build apartments that they could later turn into condos, seems to make the most sense right now with the market we have going on.

In the end though, nothing is definite...as is being proven by the Hotel Monroe deal.

[kevininlb]

Okay, disclaimer: I know politicians should never be believed (right?).

Having said that, the mayor only a few days ago swore up and down that CityScape is going forward pretty much as planned.

As for Hotel Monroe, I'm going to choose to be an optimist on that one. It just seems too far along to abandon.

[loftlovr]

Doesnt RED have to build the residential condo/ hotel tower to get the 96 million dollar's worth of incentives (parking garage, parking garge improvement and tax deferrment for 8 years)?

If that was on the line, don't you think you'd get it built!

Besides, they have 2 years for the market to hopefully settle a bit before they have to sell the highrise condos, as I doubt they are relying on presales for a construction loan as much as the average Joe developer, especially with a hotel element to soften the risk. Perhaps they could build the tower with the intention of selling the condos in a better market. They could probably offer the bare bones essentials and undercut highrise prices in the area. Hell, they could even rent them out for a few years if they had to I imagine... -Or make them condotels that sell to investors and are managed by the hotel.

-Just thinking to myself.



Ordinance S-33380 authorizing the City Manager to enter into development agreements, leases and other necessary agreements with RED Development, LLC for a mixed-use downtown redevelopment project; to acquire, convey and lease property; to establish reserves; and authorizing the City Controller to disburse funds.

This authorizes agreements with RED Development, LLC for the redevelopment of the area bounded by Washington and Jefferson Streets, First Avenue and Second Street in downtown Phoenix.

The proposed 2.5 million-square-foot mixed-use project includes approximately 250,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space, approximately 1,260 residential units, a 150-room boutique hotel, two Class "A" office towers, approximately 3,000 new structured parking spaces and the redevelopment of Patriot's Park.

The agreements shall contain the following provisions and such other terms and conditions deemed necessary and appropriate as further provided in the back-up report.

The Developer must finance and construct: a 2,500-space underground parking structure under Blocks 22 and 23; repairs and upgrade the Patriot's Square Garage; 220,000 gross leasable square feet of retail/restaurant space on Blocks 22, 23 and 77; a high-rise tower on Block 23 including approximately 500 residential units and a 150-room boutique hotel; the redevelopment of Patriot's Square Park subject to a redevelopment plan approved by the Parks and Recreation Board; plaza and open space on Blocks 22 and 23; and appropriate streetscape improvements.

On completion the City will: purchase the Block 22/23 parking structure for approximately $72.5 million; reimburse up to $13,945,000 for improvements to the Patriot's Square Garage; and reimburse up to $2.475 million for streetscape improvements. The City will purchase approximately 500 above-grade parking spaces for $7.5 million if the parking spaces and approximately 30,000 square feet of retail space are constructed in Phase II on Block 23.

City participation is subject to: the completion of the Phase I improvements; a $13 million Letter of Credit to cover any shortfalls in project lease payments and transaction privilege license taxes required to pay City debt service for a period of five years; prepayment of the projected Phase II construction sales taxes.

Funding sources will be available through lease payments from Renaissance Square and project-generated revenues, including the lease of parking structures and building improvements, the General Fund portion of both the project's construction sales taxes and the project-generated sales and lease transaction privilege license taxes. The project is expected to provide sufficient revenue from these sources to pay annual debt service obligations. In the first five years, any shortfall will be covered by the developer's Letter of Credit. After five years, any shortfall would need to be covered by City sources.

RED Development, LLC is eligible to do business with the City of Phoenix until March 17, 2007, by its compliance with the affirmative action requirements of the City Code, Chapter 18, Article IV or V. The firm is responsible for maintaining its eligibility during the life of the agreements.

This item is recommended by Mr. Krietor, the Finance Department and the Downtown Development Office.


• The start of construction shall occur on or before February 15th, 2008.
• Completion of construction of the Minimum Improvements shall occur on or before August 15th, 2010.
• Start of construction shall mean all necessary demolition and grading permits have been received and that development activity to such permits has begun.

As for Minimum Improvements...

Block 22 and 77:

• A minimum of 184,00 ft of aggragate gross building area intended for retail/restaurant on blocks 22 and 77
• A 550,000 sq ft mixed-use tower on Block 22 for office, retail, or other uses
• Redevelopment of Patriot's Park
• Other plaza and open space on Blocks 22 and 23
• Streetscape improvements
• A below grade parking structure on Block 22 with approx. 1300 spaces
• Repairs and upgrades to Patriots Garage


Block 23

• A high-rise tower on Block 23 with approx. 500 residential units and 150 hotel rooms
• A minimum of 36,000 sq ft of aggregate gross building area intended for retail/restaurant
• Streetscape improvements
• A below-grade parking structure with approx 1000 spaces

[combusean]

I have confirmation that the CityScape residential tower has no financing on 22

[HX_Guy]

As for Minimum Improvements...

Block 22 and 77:

• A minimum of 184,00 ft of aggragate gross building area intended for retail/restaurant on blocks 22 and 77
• A 550,000 sq ft mixed-use tower on Block 22 for office, retail, or other uses
• Redevelopment of Patriot's Park
• Other plaza and open space on Blocks 22 and 23
• Streetscape improvements
• A below grade parking structure on Block 22 with approx. 1300 spaces
• Repairs and upgrades to Patriots Garage


Block 23

• A high-rise tower on Block 23 with approx. 500 residential units and 150 hotel rooms
• A minimum of 36,000 sq ft of aggregate gross building area intended for retail/restaurant
• Streetscape improvements
• A below-grade parking structure with approx 1000 spaces


As you can see, for block 22, there is no requirement for any residential at all. They basically just have to do the office tower, the retail on block 22 and 77, redo the park, and build the parking garage...and they get their money.

On block 23, there is a requirement for residential and a hotel...however, they split up the incentives a while back where they will get half for block 22/77 and half for block 23, and since RED is only doing block 22/77, that's all they care about. Block 23 was supposed to be done by CDK Partners/Colliers...and last we heard, CDK pulled out.

[HX_Guy]

I have confirmation that the CityScape residential tower has no financing on 22

Damn...how credible is the source?

Also, does that include the hotel portion as well? So the whole tower has no financing, or just the residential portion?

[loftlovr]

-Yeah, what about Kimpton?
What about just making a larger hotel?

I still think that going the condotel route would make sense.
Investors like it when they can put down 20% and forget about things.
The hotel can manage the condotels for a 20% fee and I bet that from an annual perspective the condotels would lease for the mortgage payment.

Maybe RED can find another investor.

[Phxbyrd211]

I repeated this several times before but the answer to this problem is to combine the office tower with the hotel. These are the two investments with the least amount of risk in the current downtown market. With anchor tenents already signed on and having an unbeatable address at a time when vacancy rates are relatively low, the office tower has a fair bet of making money and the hotel is all but safe with the convention center providing free customers 12 months a year. The pluses are you get a new Phoenix tallest with good fundamentals and every reason to receive financing.

The mayor and city council have no reason not to make a deal with the developers to sit on the other 3 towers for 2-4 years without penalty under this senario:

In RED's last design version that satisfied the parks department the announced they would include market rate apartments about the retail and dining (I don't remeber how many). If they agreed to include 100 affordable unit to go along with the mkt. ones I think the city would have something to be very excited about. These apartments would fill up upon completion in my opinon and provide hundreds of 365 customers and users along with the hotel guests. If the developers agreed to spend an additional $25,000 on landscaping for one of the empty pads for more public space you would end up with a very positive outcome for the tax payers and DT residents.

Sure you would be left with an entire empty block but it would only be for 2-3 years versus being stuck with a bad project for 50 years. What the hotel/office configuration gives you is almost certain success on a small scale and the time to get things right for the rest of a very vital portion of Downtown. I hope the City and RED go in this direction.

[Vicelord John]

AZ Center + Collier Center = CityScape!

I fucking swear, look at the master plans for all three developments in 5 years, and it will be the same story. they all get half built!

[HX_Guy]

Some good news!

The FAA gave a "No hazard" determination for the tower crane and it has a bit more information attached to it...

Description of Location: Block 22 Phoenix map bordered by Washington/Jefferson/ CENTRAL AND 1ST STREET City BLK 22 Phoenix- between Washington/Central/Jefferson and 1st street

Description of Proposal: 490 ft. tower crane to build 36 story building for 24 months

The 36 story building is the hotel/condo tower (the office tower is 27 stories) and this FAA report is very recent, it was submitted by Hunt Construction on June 17th, 2008.

Also, this was mentioned before...but the schedule for the crane to be erected is July 15th, 2008 - July 15th, 2010...so we might be seeing something rise pretty quick here.

Of course, to throw things off a bit...isn't the office tower supposed to go up first? And this, the 36 story tower, to start like 6 months later? Then again...they can probably use the tower crane for the parking garage portion as well as the ground retail and such...so might as well install it now? :D

[loftlovr]

Does anyone know of a good Commercial Tower with a hotel in the mix?
I am very curious to hear if this is done often and what drawbacks and benefits there may be.
Also, why not just make the residential condos in to lux apartment tower instead?
It still brings people to the core.... I bet people would gobble up the chance to live in an Urban setting like this right above a cool development.
I agree with you Phxbyrd211 regarding landscaping that block rather than building something substandard and having to live with it!

[kevininlb]

hotel-office - one that comes to mind is the Time Warner Center (or whatever it's called) in NYC. Forget which hotel is in there but I believe it's a five-star something or other. And I guess it's actually hotel-office-condo.

[gymratmanaz]

There is the new mixed use tower on the Chicago river by Trump.

So how many feet tall would a 36 story hotel/condo complex be and 27 story office building be?

[Don B.]

^ We already have those numbers, if I recall correctly, it was 425 feet and 375 feet respectively, give or take.

--don

[plinko]

So how many feet tall would a 36 story hotel/condo complex be and 27 story office building be?

The office building at 27 floors will be 387' (quoted numerous times in this thread).

36 story condo tower? Probably in the 400' range (maybe somebody has an actual height?)



Office/Hotel tower? How about Jin Mao in Shanghai? :D

Seems to me there's a decent sized one in Vancouver that was built in the last 5 years?

[kevininlb]

There is the new mixed use tower on the Chicago river by Trump.

So how many feet tall would a 36 story hotel/condo complex be and 27 story office building be?

Trump in Chicago is hotel-condo, not hotel-office...the Trump in Toronto might be hotel-office, not really sure.

But there are probably hotel-office buildings in Chicago, where mixed-use is pretty much standard these days for office buildings.

[ljbuild]

WILL CITYSCAPE BUILD THE NEW TALLEST ?????

or was their rendering just a "TEASER"":( :(


I just got the recent issue of SOUTHWEST CONTRACTOR MAGAZINE , which

highlights all the projects that have BROKEN-GROUND or completed. They did

have CENTRAL PARK EAST & The one I am most interested in " CITYSCAPE".

About cityscape they showed a rendering of the WACHOVIA TOWER AT 28

STORIES


However, the hotel / multi-use tower ( WHICH IS OR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE NEWTALLEST ) they

did not list how many stories that will be. They basically said that it has

broken ground with the wachovia tower.

Seems that no one I mean "NO ONE" knows if that building is going to be

THE NEW TALLEST.

Since the FAA isnt giving this project "ANY DELAYS" or any bumps in the

road so to speak, hopefully the original plan for that tower being

44 stories will still be a reality.

Im tired of looking at the CHASE TOWER.

[AZ KID]

I think everyone knows that is HIGHLY unlikely especially with our knowlege of it being 36 stories (thanks to HX Guy). And if your so tired of looking at chase then stop. All I want is this tower to get built!

[kevininlb]

WILL CITYSCAPE BUILD THE NEW TALLEST ?????

or was their rendering just a "TEASER"":( :(


I just got the recent issue of SOUTHWEST CONTRACTOR MAGAZINE , which

highlights all the projects that have BROKEN-GROUND or completed. They did

have CENTRAL PARK EAST & The one I am most interested in " CITYSCAPE".

About cityscape they showed a rendering of the WACHOVIA TOWER AT 28

STORIES


However, the hotel / multi-use tower ( WHICH IS OR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE NEWTALLEST ) they

did not list how many stories that will be. They basically said that it has

broken ground with the wachovia tower.

Seems that no one I mean "NO ONE" knows if that building is going to be

THE NEW TALLEST.

Since the FAA isnt giving this project "ANY DELAYS" or any bumps in the

road so to speak, hopefully the original plan for that tower being

44 stories will still be a reality.

Im tired of looking at the CHASE TOWER.


You haven't check in on this in a while have you?

And, what do you mean you're tired of looking at Chase? Don't you live in Europe???

[Vicelord John]

hey, please stop quoting ljbuild. I have him on ignore, but when you quote him, I have to read that crap!!