Phoenix CityScape Thread

[PHX31]

I seem to remember the tower crane on the Sheraton was up while there was still a huge hole. But, other than that, I'm not really sure.

[HX_Guy]

New "Patriot's Plaza", as it seems to now be called, renderings from the hardscape/landscape architect http://www.murase.com/flash/index.html

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/Cityscapelandscape/1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/Cityscapelandscape/2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/Cityscapelandscape/3.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/Cityscapelandscape/4.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/Cityscapelandscape/5.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/Cityscapelandscape/6.jpg

[admdavid]

Wow...very cool renderings! Love all the water features and how lush and full the vegetation appears to be.

[tempedude]

SWEET!

Looks much nicer than the old Patriots Park. I like the water runnel feature. Also, I hope there are as many trees in the park as depicted here in the renderings. Of course they probably be smaller at first than shown here until they mature.

[tempedude]

Does any know if they will need to install the tower crane before they start building the underground parking garage?

Is a tower crane needed to build the garage itself, since it takes up the whole lot and there isn't room for a crane on the side?

Then...can a tower crane be installed on top of the parking garage (at street level) or that isn't safe...and it needs to be anchored at the bottom?

Anyone remember how Bank of America was built? I believe that has underground parking right? Should have been pretty similar to this project it seems.

I know for a fact that there was a tower crane up at Centerpoint in Tempe while there was still a huge hole in the ground. I do think they used it to build the underground parking garage. Then they erected a second crane once the tower construction itself was underway.

So, I suspect that the same will be done for Cityscape. :)

(i am a little slow responding to this post but I just now saw it)

[HX_Guy]

Looking back at some Sheraton pictures, it seems to be exactly the same as you described Centerpoint. There was one tower crane up, although I don't know for how long it was up...but then the second one was being assembled when the garage reached street level.

They will certainly need FAA approval for any tower crane, so I guess until we at least see that going through theres no reason to hope for a crane.

Sheraton on September 29, 2006:

http://www.nitnelav.com/DowntownPhoenix/DowntownPhoenix%20017.jpg

http://www.nitnelav.com/DowntownPhoenix/DowntownPhoenix%20013.jpg

[wissundevil06]

I was a little unsure of the new park and design but after seeing the new renderings I really like it alot. The water features are excellent and there seems to be more vegetation then I had originally thought.

[renone]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/2317583782_fabf755cbf_b.jpg

[HX_Guy]

Looking good!

Are there two excavators on site? There is one in the middle next to that pickup truck but there also seems to be one on the left side of the picture? You can see just the back of it...but since the front isn't visible, not sure what it is.

[PHX31]

That's definitely an excavator (unless it is hooked up with an auger.)

That crumbled up concrete must be the old vault.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Great to see the progress, but someone needs to get a window washer to Renaissance Square pronto.

[gymratmanaz]

I know this might sound stupid, but if you are diging down 60 feet in the whole block......how do you get the equipment out when done digging?

Even if you leave a dirt ramp, that is a pretty steep ramp and you need to dig it out too....Do you have a crane by then to lift the equipment out?

[exit2lef]

I know this might sound stupid, but if you are diging down 60 feet in the whole block......how do you get the equipment out when done digging?

Even if you leave a dirt ramp, that is a pretty steep ramp and you need to dig it out too....Do you have a crane by then to lift the equipment out?

Just leave the equipment down there and let it become the furnace for the new building! That's what they did in Mike Mulligan and His Steam Shovel (http://www.amazon.com/Mike-Mulligan-His-Steam-Shovel/dp/0395169615/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204954871&sr=1-2).

Sorry -- couldn't resist; I read that book to my daughter the other night.

[gymratmanaz]

GREAT NEWS!!!

I just finished my now every Satursday walk around downtown, and I talked to a surveyor at Cityscape. The hole will be 50 feet deep. They will clear the remaining rubble and cement. Major digging will commence on Moday.

Also, we will have a new tallest building!!! He said the Wachovia tower is the same and the second tower will be 45 stories. What was confusing, is that he said Cityscape will be about 10 stories taller than Chase. He said Chase was about 35 stories. Is he talking in office stories or residential stories? He said the new height was cleared by the FAA. I checked with him again, asking "So Phoenix will have a new tallest building, and he said "Yes."

[AZ KID]

:banana: :banana: :banana:

NEW TALLEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks gymratmanaz

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[tempedude]

GREAT NEWS!!!

I just finished my now every Satursday walk around downtown, and I talked to a surveyor at Cityscape. The hole will be 50 feet deep. They will clear the remaining rubble and cement. Major digging will commence on Moday.

Also, we will have a new tallest building!!! He said the Wachovia tower is the same and the second tower will be 45 stories. What was confusing, is that he said Cityscape will be about 10 stories taller than Chase. He said Chase was about 35 stories. Is he talking in office stories or residential stories? He said the new height was cleared by the FAA. I checked with him again, asking "So Phoenix will have a new tallest building, and he said "Yes."

Wooooooo Hoooooooooo!!! New Tallest :)

Sounds like its going to be in the 515' range.

Thanks gymratmanaz good job!

:dancing: :dancing: :dancing:

[gymratmanaz]

I am so happy too!!!!!!! You think 515?

[HX_Guy]

I'm skeptical of what the surveyor said. 45 stories and 510' were the original plans and the rep at RED made it pretty clear that it will be scaled back. Also, there are comments in the permits that talk about a reduction in height.

Its not completely out of the question but I wouldn't take it as the final word.

[Viperlord]

:previous:

In my opinion and experience,

I would agree I am a bit skeptical as well. I work for an engineering and surveying firm. Very few times do we reveal to our surveying crews the details of the building sizes, because there is really no need. All that the surveyors have to do with at this time in the construction process really is boundary/property line locations, and construction staking placement for buildings. Usually the surveyors do not know the specific heights of the buildings until they are under construction. Usually the height or amount of floors is not released to surveying crews because its not information they need to know.

I could be wrong though, but thats just from my experience in the surveying and engineering field.


A new tallest is cool though, everyone could use a new tallest.

[gymratmanaz]

If they don't do as the surveyor says, can we sue them? Can we at least sue the surveyor?

Let's pray he is a surveyor in the know. He is the trusted one. He is the desiner's son. Work with me people. Keep the dream alive!!!!!

[HX_Guy]

The surveyor quoting that the FAA cleared the height and talking about 45 floors sounds like he is getting his information from the news article that was released a while back.

[PHX31]

On the other hand, it seems ridiculous that there aren't conformed or finalized plans out there at this point in the process construction process. Even though it seems like the height is a mystery to the lehman/normal person out there, I'd be inclined to assume that somebody knows the final plans, or has hold of them, especially those working on the construction on the project. Maybe the surveyor does actually know based on a set of finalized plans. But, I guess it is possible that the final height is not known at this point, isn't that the point of a design-build project? Get stuff going/moving and finalize the final details later on in the process.

[gymratmanaz]

When i asked him, he said something about the decision being made last week.

What will be the actual confirmation method? Permits, announcement, act of God?

[HX_Guy]

I think an announcement from RED or a permit stating the floors such as here already is for the office tower.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Well, if it is as the developer says, great news for Phoenix in having a new tallest building after a 35-year reign by the Chase Tower. :tup:

[renone]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2211/2326614089_3ba2d9dd0e_b.jpg

[PHX31]

Thanks for posting a new pic. Looks like they're still going right along... and they even brought in a tiny backhoe for the heavy dirt digging. :haha:

[loftlovr]

From AZ/RE

´Weitz Awarded Block 77 of CityScape
The Weitz Company was selected by RED Development and the
city of Phoenix to perform pre-construction and construction services
on Block 77, one of three blocks being developed as part of
the CityScape mixed-use project in Downtown Phoenix. Block 77 is
bounded to the north and south by Washington and Jefferson streets,
and to the east and west by Central and First avenues. The Block
77 scope includes architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical
repair and modification to the existing five-level under ground parking
garage; 80,000 SF of retail, including AJ’s Fine Foods; 65 rental
apartments; and a redesigned Patriots Square Park. Construction
began in February with estimated completion in 4Q09.

[FireMedic]

I found a web site advertising condo's that said that cityscrape will be 46 floors and will be phoenix's tallest. I try to post it later

[HX_Guy]

Here is some additional information, or really more of the same...

Weitz secures downtown job

General contractor The Weitz Co. has been busy downtown for months,
building the residential towers Summit at Copper Square, which is finished,
and 44 Monroe, which is on track for completion this year.
Now comes word that Weitz will move its cranes, scaffolds and
construction crews just down the street to the CityScape mixed-use project.
Weitz was selected by RED Development LLC in cooperation with the city
of Phoenix to build one of the blocks of the three-block giant. That area,
called "Block 77," is the site of Patriots Square Park and underground
parking between Central and First avenues and Washington and Jefferson
streets.

Weitz was selected by RED Development LLC in cooperation with the city
of Phoenix to build one of the blocks of the three-block giant. That area,
called "Block 77," is the site of Patriots Square Park and underground
parking between Central and First avenues and Washington and Jefferson
streets.

Weitz will modify the current parking structure and add retail and
apartments on top with intensive landscaping.
Neighbors and downtown workers will be eager for the project to open
because one of the largest retail tenants will be AJ's Fine Foods. For
decades there have been no grocery stores downtown, but that will change
when the high-end grocer opens its doors. Completion is on track for fall
2009.

For more: www.weitz.com or www.reddevelopment.com

[gymratmanaz]

Lots more digging accomplished and some big brown pipes appear to be laying about ....not sure of their use...obviously for connecting to the main lines of something.

[HX_Guy]

Got an email from RED...good way to start out the day. :)

Squire Sanders to Join CityScape

Global law firm to lease 80,000 square feet for Downtown Phoenix office


PHOENIX, Ariz. (March 14, 2008) – Squire, Sanders & Dempsey L.L. P. announced that it will move its Phoenix office to CityScape in early 2010. The global law firm with 150 employees in Downtown Phoenix will occupy approximately 80,000 square feet across the top four floors of One East Washington, the mixed-use project’s Class A office tower.

“Squire Sanders has supported and participated in Phoenix's growth for nearly 30 years, helping our clients attain their business goals in the Valley of the Sun and around the world,” said Robert L. Matia, Phoenix Office Managing Partner of Squire Sanders. “We are very excited to be part of CityScape's innovative project that will play a significant role in the development of a dynamic downtown.”

Consistently ranked among the top five law firms in Phoenix, Squire Sanders has been central to downtown redevelopment efforts since 1979. The firm’s presence in Phoenix expanded rapidly through solid working relationships with local, state, regional, national and international business and government leaders, including the City of Phoenix for 29 years.

“Squire Sanders and Dempsey is the type of tenant that we are looking to accommodate at CityScape,” said Keith Earnest, Vice President of Development for RED Development, LLC, who is leading the development and leasing of One East Washington. “We are very pleased to have them on board so early.”

In addition to its central location, easy access to public transit, underground parking and integrated mixed-use design, the 600,000-square-foot One East Washington office tower boasts sweeping views of the Valley. The CityScape tower lobby is a sophisticated entry point with natural stone floors, travertine and wood paneled walls and custom glass panels. The interactive building information and directory system offer state-of-the-art technologies.

Squire Sanders joins Wachovia Corporation, one of the nation’s largest diversified financial services companies, at CityScape. In October, Wachovia announced plans to lease three floors of office space totaling approximately 70,000 square feet for its regional headquarters. Additionally, Wachovia will open a retail branch in the building and distribute ATM locations throughout the project.

Construction on CityScape is currently underway with the excavation of the parking garage on the middle block, relocation of the parking garage ramp on the western block from Central Avenue to Jefferson Street, and the relocation of utilities near the site. The first phase of this multi-phase project is planned to open December 2009, with construction continuing through 2011.

[HX_Guy]

There is a story in the Business Journal about the news as well...anyone with full case want to post the complete story? :)

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/03/17/story3.html

[PHX31]

Can someone tell me again what is going in on the "middle block" - the block with all of the work and digging going on right now? Is it just the Wachovia Tower, or is it the other (potential tallest) as well?

[HX_Guy]

Two towers...Wachovia and the hotel/condo (potential tallest) tower plus retail and the PF Changs.

[PHX31]

/\ Cool, that's what I was hoping for...

[kevininlb]

Friday, March 14, 2008
Squire taking top floors at downtown's CityScape projectThe Business Journal of Phoenix - by Jan Buchholz Phoenix Business Journal

Squire, Sanders & Dempsey LLP inked a deal this month to occupy the top four floors in one of Phoenix's newest high-rise mixed-use developments.

The global law firm leased 80,000 square feet at CityScape and is expected to move into its new digs by 2010.

While completion of the 27-floor office tower at 1 E. Washington St. -- part of the 2.5 million-square-foot retail, residential and office project -- still is two years out, the firm decided to commit before the choicest spaces were taken.

Squire is the second company to sign a CityScape lease with RED Development LLC. Shortly before the groundbreaking last October, Charlotte, N.C.-based financial services company Wachovia Corp. secured 70,000 square feet for its regional headquarters and signage rights at the top of the tower.

[loftlovr]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/03/17/story3.html

Friday, March 14, 2008
Squire taking top floors at downtown's CityScape project
The Business Journal of Phoenix - by Jan Buchholz Phoenix Business Journal


Squire, Sanders & Dempsey LLP inked a deal this month to occupy the top four floors in one of Phoenix's newest high-rise mixed-use developments.

The global law firm leased 80,000 square feet at CityScape and is expected to move into its new digs by 2010.

While completion of the 27-floor office tower at 1 E. Washington St. -- part of the 2.5 million-square-foot retail, residential and office project -- still is two years out, the firm decided to commit before the choicest spaces were taken.

Squire is the second company to sign a CityScape lease with RED Development LLC. Shortly before the groundbreaking last October, Charlotte, N.C.-based financial services company Wachovia Corp. secured 70,000 square feet for its regional headquarters and signage rights at the top of the tower.

Wachovia and Squire are the only confirmed office tenants, but Keith Earnest, vice president of development at RED, said other leases are pending. He would not disclose the names of those companies.

Squire Managing Partner Robert Matia said the firm thought carefully over whether to remodel the space it occupies at Two Renaissance Square or move.

While the Ohio-based firm has been happy at its current downtown Phoenix location, it saw CityScape as an opportunity to design office space from the inside out.

"We really looked at Camelback, but it's very congested and rents are $7 to $10 (per square foot) higher," Matia said. "We made our way to downtown Phoenix 30 years ago, so we decided to stay here."

But Squire won't settle for status quo. The new space will have a more open design that features collaborative workstations and large conference tables "where you can just leave stuff for hours at a time and then come back to it," Matia said.

The law firm's current office has one large terrace with a southern exposure on the 23rd floor of 40 N. Central Ave., which it uses extensively. Its new digs will include at least four balconies with dramatic views in all four directions.

The deal will give Squire 10,000 square feet more than it currently leases for its staff of 150, including 75 lawyers. Having offices at CityScape, Matia said, will carry a certain cachet.

"It's a very monumental type of structure," he said.

Get Connected
Squire, Sanders & Dempsey LLP: www.ssd.com

[andrewkfromaz]

Sounds like CityScape is really positioning itself so far as a premier space for Class A office space, as well it should. Exciting stuff!

[Viperlord]

its good to see the progress being made on cityscape.:cool:


just thought I would give you guys a glimpse of what you have to look forward to in the future.:tup: Exciting stuff

... exciting news from here in SLC.. view the newscast below.

http://video.ksl.com/sid_video/2854542.ram

They call it the 15-hour pour. One hundred twenty concrete trucks will be involved, each one making eight trips throughout the night to get the material, all to lay the foundation of a new 32 story residential tower.

of course I love how the news shows the old renderings of the mall project before it came an open air street project. ;) idiots. get with the times.

[HX_Guy]

Update March 16th.

http://nitnelav.com/DowntownMarch162008/cityscape1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DowntownMarch162008/cityscape2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DowntownMarch162008/cityscape3.jpg

[JAHOPL]

Golly, HX Guy, knocking down the fences now for the best views, are we?:haha:

[gymratmanaz]

Lucy....You got some splainin' to do!!!!!!

[HX_Guy]

New permitting today...

Permit# PHAS-0705627-03 Issue Date 3/17/08 Expires 3/17/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE
Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL NEW

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: core and shell buildout for 27 story office building

[JAHOPL]

Does that temporarily end the drama for a New Highest or is this a separate tower?

[PHXguyinOKC]

that's for the wachovia tower

[tempedude]

HX_Guy posted:
New permitting today...

Quote:
Permit# PHAS-0705627-03 Issue Date 3/17/08 Expires 3/17/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE
Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL NEW

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: core and shell buildout for 27 story office building


Does that temporarily end the drama for a New Highest or is this a separate tower?

I think that permit is for the 27 story Wachovia office tower. (Notice that the permit said "office tower".

The the other tower on the same block is a mixed use hotel/condo tower. Thats supposed to be the tall one.

[HX_Guy]

They updated the description of the permit I posted earlier...



DESCRIPTION OF WORK:core and shell buildout for 27 story office building. below grade structure and superstructure are under seperate review and approval. permit includes shell space for future mercantile and office suites. 12 elevators and 2 escalators.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

I received yet another confirmation that an Urban Outfitters deal is in the works. I'm also told that discussions are ongoing with Forever 21 (Ladies Apparel).

I've also been told that the hotel/condo tower will not become the state's new tallest.

[PHX31]

I've also been told that the hotel/condo tower will not become the state's new tallest.


By who? Hopefully they are mistaken.

[HX_Guy]

I think we are all blindingly hoping for a new tallest...we just don't want to believe that it has been scaled back...but c'mon, numerous people are saying it won't happen...even the rep from RED is saying it won't happen.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

By who? Hopefully they are mistaken.

Leasing rep from RED. He could be wrong, but unlikely. It's too bad.

[andrewkfromaz]

PHX Native 929, I have to point out I think your signature is funny. No more politics. I can't believe I'm talking.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I think we are all blindingly hoping for a new tallest...we just don't want to believe that it has been scaled back...but c'mon, numerous people are saying it won't happen...even the rep from RED is saying it won't happen.

Even if tower two is not the new tallest, at least the skyline's getting denser.

[CANUC]

I received yet another confirmation that an Urban Outfitters deal is in the works. I'm also told that discussions are ongoing with Forever 21 (Ladies Apparel).

I've also been told that the hotel/condo tower will not become the state's new tallest.

Well can it be stated with some certainty that it will at least be the second tallest building? Also I'm assuming that Chase is 483ft at the top of the white spine, so this building with its relatively flat roof line will be in the 440ft to 450ft range might 'seem' to be at least as tall.

[HX_Guy]

I think someone mentioned it will be around 440', making it the second tallest building and really, surrounded by other towers that are all under 400', it will still make a significant impact on the skyline.

In the end though, as we've talked about it before, it really matters what happens at the street level not how tall it is. I mean look at Mill Ave...mostly 1 story buildings and its 10X more vibrant then downtown Phoenix.

[HX_Guy]

New rendering!

I ran across an article talking about the Squire Sanders lease and was surprised to see an altered rednerings of one we have seen previously.

Notice the expansion of the hotel/condo tower...which now looks to have an "L" shape. I assume this goes along with the rumors we've heard that there will not be 400 hotel rooms vs the initial 250 that were announced.

My question is though...why not add floors to the top?!/b] What is the advantage of this route vs making the building taller? There must be some reason they are going this route. Could it be cost? Is it cheaper to build this way vs adding floors?

[b]New rendering................................ Old rendering
http://www.globest.com/newspics/phx_cityscape.jpghttp://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeNight.jpg

[HX_Guy]

http://www.globest.com/news/1115_1115/phoenix/169104-1.html?st=rss

And here is the article the rendering came from. It's more of the same that we've read, although it does have some new tidbits I havn't heard before...

"Wachovia is taking floors four through six." (Knew they signed on, but didn't know which floors they were taking)

"We're working with three or four prospective tenants ranging from 20,000 sf to 100,000 sf," says Keith Earnest, RED's vice president of development, who added that activity is going well on the retail side too.

"We're going through the merchandising roll on the retail side right now to make sure we have a good mix of credit tenants. We should be ready to make more announcements in the next 60 to 90 days."

[AZ KID]

Great Find HX Guy!!! There must be some reason not to build up. I still REALLY hope that they dont cut the amount of residential units. I believe that is much worse than cutting the height.

[gymratmanaz]

Wouldn't you think that if there is a new rendering that there must exist a new plan for height specifications?????

[combusean]

It's not so much about height bringing up the cost as it is square footage.

For hotels ... it appears the flat-boxiness of maybe not so much the one on Block 22, but elsewhere in Phoenix the Sheraton, the Hyatt, and maybe even the Wyndham all share similar quality more or less. Perhaps something about having particularly large, rectangular floor plates leads to a higher efficiency. Was this mentioned in relation to Momentum a ways back?

I can think of a few reasons why this could be:
- dragging housekeeping supplies, etc between floors
- the demand on the elevators for near-constant traffic,
- having lots of contiguous space for things like stacked, few-columned ballrooms and other convention-type space
- good old fire code necessitating core and stairwell on both ends?

[loftlovr]

I would guess it is that hotel needs more elevators than residential.
So they can have two that go up the entire building and four that go up the height of the hotel. (or so)

It may provide for a cool semi-rooftop deck on that level.

The exposed portion of the 15th floor reminds me of the W "Victory" hotel in Dallas. Is very cool.

I like that the new rendering chops off half way- as if RED doesn't know how many floors they want either!

edit: Sorry Comusean- I just saw you said the same thing!

[CANUC]

...I like that the new rendering chops off half way- as if RED doesn't know how many floors they want either!

edit: Sorry Comusean- I just saw you said the same thing!

Eewww...a bad thought just crossed my mind. Imagine that this new wide shortened rendering is actually an option for RED which leads to the demise of the condo portion of the building. I don't its that far fetched considering the market and the fact that they seem reluctanct to announce a specific height.

[Tfom]

If they cut off the condo portion it will be a huge disappointment, as well as a complete lack of foresight on their part.

[sundevilgrad]

Now why you gotta go saying stuff like that Canuc? The forumer threat level has just been raised to RED.

[HX_Guy]

Eewww...a bad thought just crossed my mind. Imagine that this new wide shortened rendering is actually an option for RED which leads to the demise of the condo portion of the building. I don't its that far fetched considering the market and the fact that they seem reluctanct to announce a specific height.

Hold on, hold on...I think we're getting ahead of ourselves...

I personally don't think they will completely chop off the condo portion, I think they see the potential the condos have and that the market may be very different by the time these are ready for move-in...which will probably be 2011.
As for the reluctance to announce a specific height...I thought they were full of it when they kept saying they are still "tweaking it" but apparently they weren't and it is true that it's still in the works, shown here by the new rendering. Who knows, the office tower may be well under way before they even finalize the condo/tower tower. Remember, there are no stipulations for the condo/hotel tower on block 22 so it could be a year or more before anything happens with that.

[gymratmanaz]

Construction guy on site said that there will be one crane used for both buildings, and something about the second tower starting 4-6 months after the first..... Who knows if he is in the know though.

[HX_Guy]

Ok the construction guy is talking out of his ass...

How could they use one crane for both buildings if the second tower is starting 4-6 months later...so while the first tower is still going up, they are going to use the same crane for the second tower? What are the crews working on the first going to do...just wait around?

What about then the shorter office tower, which starts construction months in advanced compared to the second tower, is finished? It will have a crane anchored to it for who knows how many more months?

[gymratmanaz]

He may have also said that the Iraq war was justified too.......

Sounds like he was talking out of his ass.....

At least we have new drawings and they do appear to be digging more and more. Progress is progress.

No matter what, we are adding to the downtown in a great way.

Any JSED news to add to Cityscapes impact?

[combusean]

It's conceivable that one crane could be used ... it works on the office tower and when the condo tower joins the fray it simply swings around to help.

That of course gets very difficult if the condo tower exceeds the height of the office tower. The crane will have to be jacked up as the condo tower rise and it needs to be braced to the side of the building it's constructing so it doesn't topple. If there is any significant difference in height at that time between the two I wonder if that itself is a problem ... if the office tower is say at 200' by then, which is conceivable if it's a steel framed building, that's a whole lot of clearance--too much? :shrug:--between the top of the crane and the work it's doing.

[HX_Guy]

I still don't see it as probable...

The two towers are close to each other, but not nearly close enough in my opinion. Yes they are on the same block but really on opposite ends...one on the SW corner and the other on the NE.
Going back to scheduling...if the office tower will be 375' and say the hotel/condo will be 440'...yet the office starts construction 6 months earlier...it could mean the crane would be hanging off the office tower for 8+ months minimum after the tower is completed. The crane itself would stand in the way of the office tower actually being completed as they would not be able to finish the cladding etc.

It alsmost sounds like the construction guy is pulling our leg...giving false information on purpose.

[gymratmanaz]

I'll head downtown again tomorrow afternoon and see what I can find out. You know me, not afraid to get in there and ask away...... Surprised they haven't given me my own hard hat yet.

[combusean]

Two cranes were used to build the sheraton, and that's a span of 300'. HX is probably right--there's just not enough span on the boom.

[Viperlord]

I hope you guys dont mind me dropping in and posting on your forums. I just find it interesting to compare and share timelines of large mixed-use projects like the City Creek Center (SLC) and the Cityscape.

City Creek Center will be phased in over the next 4 years as you can see. 900 residential units. One of our 19 story condo towers (tower 2) that was originally scheduled to be built with the whole development has been put on hold due to softening housing markets. It is there hope that the market demand for the housing will be high so they can build them all at once. Interest for housing in the project has been extremely high, so I guess we will have to wait and see.

City Creek Center estimated completion dates

Block 76 (bordered by West Temple, South Temple, Main Street and 100 South)

• Parking structure — mid-2009
• Residential towers 6 and 7 — early 2010
• Residential tower 2 (ground-level retail only) — late 2010
• Residential tower 1 — early 2011
• Apartments — mid-2011
• Retail (including Nordstrom) — early 2012
• Landscaping — mid-2012
• Residential tower 2 (housing levels) — TBA, as market dictates

Block 75 (bordered by Main Street, South Temple, State Street and 100 South)

• New Key Bank tower (including food court) — mid-2009
• Parking structure — mid-2010
• Residential tower 5 — late 2010
• Residential building 4 — early 2011
• Retail (including Macy's) — mid-2012
• Landscaping — mid-2012

Block 74 (bordered by State Street, South Temple, 200 East and 100 South)

• Parking structure — mid-2009
• Retail (Harmons grocery store) — late-2009
• Condominiums — mid-2011


:yes: I must say that I like the height that is being used for the Cityscape development. I wish we could get some more height out of our City Creek Center.

Btw, does The Cityscape project have a fly through tour like our City Creek Center has (click on link below)
http://www.downtownrising.com/city_creek/

I would be interested in seeing a fly through of Cityscape if there is one.:yes:

Also, you guys mention the cranes on the cityscape project. I would imagine that there will be multiple cranes for one block/towers. Each one of our blocks in the City Creek Center is estimated to have around 5-6 cranes on it. So probably a total of a dozen cranes dotting the skyline over the next 4 years.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3079/2336568270_87301cb12e_b.jpg

Here is a picture last weekend of one block. You can see that they could have probably placed one crane right in the center of the red crane and the gray crane, but instead probably for productivity issues and safety went with two seperate cranes.

[AZ KID]

Delete

[gymratmanaz]

Watched them work this morning - talked to the forman of the digging aspect - they are going down 60 feet - Night crews begin this Sunday - digging should be done in 2 months - cement shoring up for the first 8 feet is about 3/4 done - they dug a lot more in a day and 3 trucks now come every 5 minutes to haul dirt away.

[Vicelord John]

this one I'm actually impatient for. They better not fuck it up like they did collier center. That is probably my biggest fear.

[HooverDam]

Welp, its a big hole...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0923.jpg?t=1206476787

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0922.jpg?t=1206476820

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/HooverDam/downtown%20march%2008/DSC_0921.jpg?t=1206476840
Patriots Park still sits there, taunting me, as if to say it will never actually be torn down.

[andrewkfromaz]

this one I'm actually impatient for. They better not fuck it up like they did collier center. That is probably my biggest fear.

Even more than a global, catastrophic shortage of cheap beer? What about if they got human cloning off the ground and LJBUILD volunteered for testing, leading to dozens of LJBUILD clones wandering the streets of Phoenix?

ALSO: HX_Guy, you ain't seen nothin' yet. It's still a baby hole. Someday it'll grow up to be big and strong.

[renone]

I am obviously having trouble with my camera, but here is a new picture. Concrete is sprayed on most of the wall now.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2327/2361439625_6c3c0e373e_b.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

renone...I was there about when you took this picture. Let me know next time and I will wave.

[Vicelord John]

Even more than a global, catastrophic shortage of cheap beer? What about if they got human cloning off the ground and LJBUILD volunteered for testing, leading to dozens of LJBUILD clones wandering the streets of Phoenix?

ALSO: HX_Guy, you ain't seen nothin' yet. It's still a baby hole. Someday it'll grow up to be big and strong.

ok, fine, thats scarier.

[gymratmanaz]

They have completed the first 8feet of cement walls. It is cool, one of the crew was explaining to me that they have to move the in and out dirt ramps each day or so, in order to cement the walls as they dig down. They shift the ramp in order to cement where the ramp used to be. They will have to do this each time they dig another level down. Build a dirt ramp, tear it down to build another..... Hole should be done by end of May.

[HX_Guy]

I attended the Patriots Square Association Council of Co-Owners at RED's offices, it was a a budget and Cityscape update meeting open to the public.

Along with new renderings, here are some of the highlights I picked up on.

• Starting in June 2008, Central Ave between Washington and Jefferson will be closed for 12 months and excavated. The new parking garage will actuall butt up against the Patriot's Park parking garage. The old ramp on Central will be converted into an area for dry utilities (Cox, APS, etc).

• Toward the end of summer, the new ramp on Jefferson (Patriot's Park garage) will start construction.

• Patriot's Park construction will start late 2008, probably in the month of December. There will be some activities like tree removal and such starting earlier, but excavation of the surface area will come at the end of the year.

• Block 22 (middle block) excavation will be done at the end of May followed by construction of the parking garage and the office tower. Come August, columns for the office tower should be above street level.

• The condo/hotel tower will follow about 6 months behind the office tower.

• By the end of 2008, block 22 should have the retail portions of the buildings in place (PF Changs, etc) as well as the office tower close to topping out. Build time for the office tower will be about 12 months (completion late summer 2009) while the condo/hotel will have a 24 month build time (completion late 2010).

• While it's not completely final, the condo/hotel tower will be 34-35 floors and 400'-425'. Cost seems to be the main driving force behind the reduction in height/floors. They have expanded the hotel portion outward (as can be seen in the renderings) which took away from the height...but apparently it is much more cost effective to build outward vs upward.

And here are the new renderings. I'm really liking the streetscapes which they are paying a lot of attention to. They specifically mentioned that they do not like arcades which are common in downtown because they create an uninviting and closed in feel. Retailers asked that they use awning type of structures for shade, which is what they are going with.

Central Ave looking north
http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew1.jpg

1st St looking south
http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew2.jpg

Office tower lobby (I assume)
http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew4.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew5.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew6.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew7.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew3.jpg

[HooverDam]

Very cool, thanks so much!

I actually sort of disagree with them about arcades. I think arcades can be great, if done right. Most of the downtown arcades do feel closed off because they are made of huge block or concrete columns that block off a large part of the street. I think however, if one were to build one out of 'light' materials more like a metal exoskeleton, they'd feel a lot more open. My problem with the shade structures in some of the renderings is that they remind me of a lot of shade structures around town- they don't provide shade! What good does a metal square thats highly perforated hanging above my head do me? It protects me from neither the rain or the sun, its sole purpose becomes that it looks neat. I know they design them like this because the light coming through them looks cool and whatever, but that amount of light should really be minimized in my opinion.

[HX_Guy]

I hadn't actually noticed that but looking at it now, I do agree with you. I don't agree about the arcades, no matter what construction material is used...however why can't they do something in between? Have the awning type of shade structures like they are proposing, but with solid material? I've seen this done at other projects, even around downtown, and they can use cables/etc to support the structures from the top.

[admdavid]

Well, that sucks about the condo/hotel tower height. I can understand about the costs involved, especially in this real estate climate, but I'm still disappointed in the lack of vision.

[NIXPHX77]

COOL!
good job, HX Guy. thanks!
i agree with Hooverdam about the awnings.

also, the streetscapes depicted look rather ordinary to me.

[PHX31]

Everything looks nice, but ordinary. The heights of the towers is disappointing, on many levels. All of which have been explained before. But I understand the money aspects. I'm just disappointed in the fact that there will be a bunch more "same-height" buildings which won't improve our skyline that much (except for density). Plus, where better than to have our tallest building than at the 0,0 block. Where will it go now (that will also look good in the context of the downtown skyline and not stick out like a sore thumb)? Too bad the city couldn't have stipulated height as well.

Also, it is too bad that the initial hotel(Palomar)/condo building couldn't be in the same design as the future condo buildings. I really like the semi-"art deco-ish" look of them.

[HX_Guy]

It does look ordinary...and I think that is a good thing. I was afraid it might end up looking like a "Disneyland" type of place, like Westgate out in Glendale...but it looks more authentic downtown.

[JimInCal]

HX, thanks for the great update! I know we've all been waiting for added information, especially on the mixed-use tower. I too am very dissappointed by the height and the plateau that is forming in the DT core. Several of the forumers chimed in on the CityScape site concerning the many positive aspects of a 500'+ tower in that location...but apparently to no avail. It's too bad RED teased us all for a while, the rat-bastards ;)

[HooverDam]

I agree that the buildings look ordinary, but I suppose I like them more than I dislike them. My main disappointment with them (other than the reduced height of course) is the boring tops of the buildings. Phoenix has so many square-ish, flat topped buildings. The CityScape buildings have some what slanted roofs, which is nice, but its nothing dramatic. I would've liked to have seen one of the buildings be a bit more unique, iconic, or heck, even weird.

[loftlovr]

Thanks HX_Guy! Our inside man...

The guy in rendering number two works quickly! :cool:
(see rendering number one)

I still think this project will be and feel amazing once completed. (Even with the same height) Given the current state of the Downtown condo market, I understand.

[PHX31]

/\ Lol

[Cranetastic]

I think that if we try hard enough we can have all of the buildings be the same or of similar hieght further emphasizing the squarish appearance of many of them. Oh wait too late, it's happened. I'm all for density, but is it really that hard to come up with cost effective materials packaged in a little bit of pizzaz? Where have all of the innovators gone? The Mayor better step up big time because this is small time thinking and if he wants us to be a Dubai Jr. then we've got a lot of work to do.

[sundevilgrad]

Phoenix is just destined to have a stubby, boring skyline. There's too many factors working against it. The best we can hope for is a high-density DT in the 400-500ft range, i'm afraid.

[shawneriksmith]

Wow, I can't believe all the gripes about Cityscape tower not being taller than Chase by 10' or so (like the original plans/renderings). It's not like Cityscape was going to be a 1000' tower...Phoenix should focus on densifying its downtown area instead of focusing on height. Most cities' tallest buildings aren't in their downtowns anyway due to when their downtowns developed vs the rest of their city. Phoenix should first get a dense, active downtown area, then there will be further demand to live nearby...then a nice, monumental tall building can be built somewhere in midtown where there's no interference with Sky Harbor and such. Let's be excited that this project is really starting to move and will provide more residents, office workers, visitors, retail, and restaurants...let's give the developers some kudos for being practical...great "vision" can come later.

[exit2lef]

Wow, I can't believe all the gripes about Cityscape tower not being taller than Chase by 10' or so (like the original plans/renderings). It's not like Cityscape was going to be a 1000' tower...Phoenix should focus on densifying its downtown area instead of focusing on height. Most cities' tallest buildings aren't in their downtowns anyway due to when their downtowns developed vs the rest of their city. Phoenix should first get a dense, active downtown area, then there will be further demand to live nearby...then a nice, monumental tall building can be built somewhere in midtown where there's no interference with Sky Harbor and such. Let's be excited that this project is really starting to move and will provide more residents, office workers, visitors, retail, and restaurants...let's give the developers some kudos for being practical...great "vision" can come later.

Agreed. Vertical is nice, but ultimately density and walkabilty are more important to enhancing quality of life. Keep in mind, though, that the name of this forum probably says something about the interests of its participants. It's called "SkyscaperPage Forum" rather than "Neo-urbanist Forum." Usually, those interests align, but not always. No criticism intended toward anyone here -- just an observation that this forum will be more inclined to cheer for height than some others.

[sundevilgrad]

Yes, but if you remember the initial talks from RED they said they were going to build something "iconic" for the 0,0 locale. This hardly fits the bill. Better than empty parking lots? Yes. What they said they would build? No.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Wow, I can't believe all the gripes about Cityscape tower not being taller than Chase by 10' or so (like the original plans/renderings). It's not like Cityscape was going to be a 1000' tower...Phoenix should focus on densifying its downtown area instead of focusing on height. Most cities' tallest buildings aren't in their downtowns anyway due to when their downtowns developed vs the rest of their city. Phoenix should first get a dense, active downtown area, then there will be further demand to live nearby...then a nice, monumental tall building can be built somewhere in midtown where there's no interference with Sky Harbor and such. Let's be excited that this project is really starting to move and will provide more residents, office workers, visitors, retail, and restaurants...let's give the developers some kudos for being practical...great "vision" can come later.

Well put. I don't care if the Chase Tower remains the tallest in Phoenix for the next 100 years, or if (god forbid) Tucson passes us in height. I would much rather have a viable, active downtown than one with a bunch of high rises, but void of nightlife. DC is a great example of a place without many highrises, but does well in nightlife/street activity.

As for what outsiders think of our downtown? Cincinnati Enquirer sports columnist Paul Daugherty is in town for the NCAA tournament. Wasn't very kind...

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/daugherty/
Wednesday, March 26, 2008
Nowhere

OK, I'm sure Arizona is a wonderful state. In fact, I've been all over it, from Tucson to Sedona, Flagstaff to Bisbee, Superstition Mtns, Saguaro National Park etc. Also, spent many days around Phoenix. So I'm not entirely ignorant of the place. So I say this with confidence:

Downtown Phoenix makes downtown Cincinnati look like the Vegas Strip.

True Story: I spent at least half an hour walking around downtown this morning, looking for a place I could buy toothpaste and a disposable razor.The hotel had them, but I'm cheap and I felt like exploring.

Surely, there would be a CVS, Walgreen's, whatever they call UDF out here. Not one. Not one decent sports bar outside of Majerle's, not one place where you might hear some music, not one sign of life outside the hotels and office towers. For a place allgedly booming, the core is absolutely dead. Comparing vibrant DC last week with Phoenix is like comparing Caesar's Rome with Yogi Bear's Jellystone Park.

There's more: Lacking a car, I checked out the central bus terminal. I wanted to go to Scottsdale, which at least has a pulse, and Goodyear, the Reds future spring home, maybe, probably, we'll see. The ride to Scottsdale, about 20m by car, takes an hour by 2 buses. As for Goodyear, the lady behind the counter said there was no definite place to go there.

"Where you wanna go?''

"I dunno.City Hall would be good.''

She says she has no idea even if Goodyear has a city hall, and if does, she wouldnt know a bus that went close.

Welcome, Cincinnati Reds. Yikes.