Canada's Newest NHL Team: Waterloo Penguins

[GreatTallNorth2]

You heard it hear first: The Penguins will move to a brand new downtown arena in Kitchener and become Canada's newest NHL team.

OK, that's speculation, but could it not happen? The frontrunner to buy the team is RIM's Jim Basaille (not sure on spelling). He has tons of cash and is reported to now be the frontrunner. Hamilton is too close to Toronto and Buffalo, but Kitchener is further from both. It is spack dab in the middle of a major population area with Hamilton, London, Mississauga, Brantford, etc. very close. The population of this area is bigger than the whole province of Alberta. Waterloo Region itself is growing like crazy. Could this happen and doesn't it make more sense then going to smelly Hamilton? Sure they have an arena, but it is already out of date.

[Hardhatdan]

It'll go to Hamilton.

[SteelTown]

Not Waterloo, Copps Coliseum. Jim Basaille wife is from Hamilton and she's a big supporter.

Also this is at the same time when Copps (Sep 23) will be hosting an NHL preseason with Buffalo Sabres with guess who.......Pittsburgh Pengiuns.

Pittsburgh aka Steelcity
Hamilton aka Steeltown

[SteelTown]

Canadian top bidder in hunt for Penguins

Friday, September 15, 2006
By Shelly Anderson, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

If you are among the millions of people who can't live without one of the ubiquitous wireless BlackBerry devices, then you know why Jim Balsillie is a multimillionaire.

Balsillie, chairman and co-CEO of Research in Motion, the company based in Waterloo, Ontario, that makes the BlackBerry, has emerged as the latest frontrunner to buy the Penguins, two sources with knowledge of the sale process said yesterday.

His second pursuit of the hockey team is the latest development in what has been a roller-coaster ride the past several months as fans have waited to see who buys the club and whether the new owner intends to keep it in Pittsburgh.

Balsillie, who has declined comment, was the secretive Canadian bidder who nearly signed a letter of intent with the Penguins in mid-July. He backed out when he realized it wouldn't be simple to move the team. It's believed he wanted to relocate it to Hamilton, Ontario, which is near Waterloo.

After that, four other prospective owners staged a bidding war. Hartford real-estate developer Sam Fingold prevailed and signed a letter of intent in late July, but was not able to reach a purchase agreement with the Penguins, who are owned in part by Hall of Fame player Mario Lemieux.

Fingold and two other bidders -- New York businessman Andrew Murstein and Ohio businessman and Ringgold High School graduate Jim Renacci -- remain involved and interested, but Balsillie has moved ahead of them.

His earlier offer was in the range of $175 million to $180 million.

It's not known why Balsillie re-emerged or what his intentions would be if he is successful in buying the Penguins.

A new owner would be bound to the team's arrangement with Isle of Capri Gaming, which will donate $290 million toward a new arena if it is awarded the city's slots license later this year.

If Forest City/Harrah's or PITG Gaming land the city's slots license, there is a proposed "Plan B" for arena funding that draws on slots and state money as well as contributions from the Penguins.

The team's lease at Mellon Arena expires in June, and Penguins officials maintain they need a new venue to be viable in Pittsburgh.

Under NHL Bylaw 36, the league can block a move to another city if there is a plan to make a team viable. The league also must approve any sale.

An attempt to relocate a team to Hamilton could be met with strong resistance from officials of teams in nearby Buffalo and Toronto.

It seems clear that Balsillie, a native of Peterborough, is entrenched in southern Ontario.

According to RIM's Web site, Balsillie has been the chairman and co-CEO since 1992 and is involved in several community and charitable projects. He's also a sports enthusiast who plays hockey and golf and competes in triathlons.

Balsillie joined RIM following jobs with Prudential Bache Securities, Ernst & Young, and Southerland Schultz Inc. He has a bachelor's degree from the University of Toronto and an MBA from Harvard.

The popularity of BlackBerrys has fueled RIM's explosive growth. The company posted profits of nearly $130 million in its fiscal first quarter that ended in June, up more than six-fold from one previous year on sales that rose more than 9 percent to $613.1 million. In the just-ended quarter, RIM said it expects to report profits to be higher and for sales to fall in the $620 million to $650 million range.

It also expects to have added about 700,000 subscribers, pushing the number of BlackBerry customers to more than six million.

RIM got out of a jam last year when it settled for $612.5 million with a Virginia company that claimed the BlackBerry infringed on its patents. A judge had threatened to suspend BlackBerry service in the United States.

At the time, Balsillie said of the settlement, "There's no question we took one for the team."

[vid]

I'm still waiting for my Thunder Bay Lightning to come back. :)

[RWin]

Won't Toronto want a team now too?

[SHOFEAR]

Won't Toronto want a team now too?

Would we be able to count to parallel cupless steaks as one gigantic one?

[SteelTown]

Report says RIM owner after Pens

The chairman of Waterloo-based RIM, the makers of the BlackBerry, denied yesterday a published report that he was now the front-runner to buy the Pittsburgh Penguins.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, citing sources with knowledge of the sale, reported yesterday that Canadian Jim Balsillie, chairman and co-CEO of Research in Motion, has emerged as the top candidate to buy the NHL team from Hall of Famer Mario Lemieux.

But Balsillie denied it when the Waterloo Region Record asked.

“No, it’s not true,” he said.

Asked if he was involved or planning to be involved in another way with the Penguins, Balsillie replied: “I don’t comment on speculation.”

A source close to the team told The Canadian Press yesterday that Balsillie was in talks with the Pens.

Balsillie, said the Post-Gazette, was revealed as the secretive Canadian bidder who nearly signed a letter of intent with the team in July, the paper said. He apparently wanted to move the team to Hamilton, and backed out when he realized it wouldn’t be easy.

The Penguins play the Sabres in Hamilton next Saturday night.
---------------------------------

I wonder if all of this is being hyped up for a possible announcement to be made well the Penguins play at Copps next Saturday. Because Jim Balsillie has kept his name secret about wanting an NHL team for at least 5 years, he tried to get Ottawa to relocate in to Hamilton but now all of a sudden his name is being revealed.

[SteelTown]

Potential Penguins' move on ice

By Rob Biertempfel and Andrew Conte
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Saturday, September 16, 2006

The Penguins are scheduled to play a preseason game next week in Hamilton, Ont., and some people fear that game could be the team's debut on its future home ice.

But many residents of Hamilton -- along with a Canadian multimillionaire who reportedly would buy the Penguins and move them north -- do not believe so.

"As far as this community is concerned, I think they've all but given up on the (National Hockey League)," Hamilton city councilman Terry Whitehead said Friday. "I have no evidence that we're any closer today than we've been at any time during our attempts to get an NHL team here."

Jim Balsillie, CEO of Research In Motion, makers of BlackBerry wireless communication devices, told a Canadian newspaper yesterday he has no plan to buy the Penguins, despite being named as a likely buyer of the team that is for sale.

The Record of Waterloo Region, Ontario, reported that Balsillie said, "No, it's not true," when shown a published report stating he was the new front-runner in the bidding war for the team.

Reached by phone at his home, Balsillie declined to comment to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. A Penguins spokesman also declined to comment on the sales process.

Balsillie is believed to have been part of a covert group of Canadian investors which mulled a bid for the Penguins in July but backed out.

No matter who buys the Penguins, Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato said the city-county Sports & Exhibition Authority is prepared to negotiate lease terms for a new arena. But a new owner set on moving the team to another city could simply refuse to participate in a backup plan to pay for an arena, he said.

Under one plan, Isle of Capri Casinos would pay $290 million for an arena if it wins a slots license for Pittsburgh. But under the backup plan, the team would have to pay $8.5 million up front, and then $2.9 million a year, while forgoing $1.1 million a year in naming rights.

"That is definitely a concern of ours, but we're trying to operate in good faith," Onorato said. "We made it very clear ,whoever buys this team better be prepared to sign a long-term lease to keep the team in Pittsburgh."

The NHL wants to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh, deputy commissioner Bill Daly said yesterday. He denied a rumor that Balsillie met this week with league commissioner Gary Bettman.

"If a viable plan for a new arena materializes, we would not recommend approval of a proposal to relocate the franchise outside of Pittsburgh," Daly said.

If an NHL franchise would relocate to Hamilton, the team would have to pay territorial rights fees to the Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres. In 1997, Hamilton officials estimated those fees could be $75 million.

Several sources have linked Balsillie to HHC Acquisitions Corp., a group of businessmen with exclusive rights to land an NHL franchise for Copps Arena.

HHC has made attempts to buy the Ottawa Senators and Buffalo Sabres and move them to Hamilton.

[scumtoes]

a team in hamilton doesn't make any sense to me. leaf nation is to close and would the die hard leaf fans in hamilton support a new NHL team?

[SHOFEAR]

I think we will see Houston, OKC, Las Vegas, Milwaukee or Cleveland etc before we see a team in Hamilton or Winnipeg.

[vid]

Houston? Really? They don't even know what hockey is. :rolleyes:

[SHOFEAR]

Houston? Really? They don't even know what hockey is. :rolleyes:

Yeah, and that little city down the road, Dallas or something like that, what a flop it's been there.

[newflyer]

Yeah, and that little city down the road, Dallas or something like that, what a flop it's been there.

They lost more than enough money before the cap. Not exactly a success, although most teams lost money before the cap. The NHL was a real mess. The reality is the WNBA gets much higher TV ratings that the NHL in most US markets, more so in Texas. ... but so does bowling and beach volleyball.

[vid]

Houston and Dallas are like Montreal and Toronto. Both completely differnt democraphics, and almost 500miles apart.

[SHOFEAR]

There is enough people and money to make it work. Regardless it's one of a handfull of potential locations, some better than others. Isn't OKC pretty much finishing up a state of the art arena and seriously trying to grab an NHL team?

[SteelTown]

You don't think Hamilton has enough people and money to make it work? Millions live in within Hamilton's reach. Jim Balsillie is a billionaire. Arena already built, understand it's 20 years old but at least it'll be cheaper to renovate it than rebuilding a new one.

Hamilton will work better than Houston, OKC and Las Vegas. I wouldn't mind seeing Milwaukee and Cleveland though, but they'll need a rich guy to get a team whereas with Hamilton it does.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ron Joyce is somehow behind this too.

[newflyer]

Hamilton will not get an NHL team for 3 reasons,

1) Toronto blocks it
2) Buffalo blocks it
3) Copps Colliseum is out of date compared to the modern NHL areas.

Winnipeg is much closer to being a viable NHL market as it doesn't infringe on any other NHL market and it has a new state of the art arena. It is the heart of a very hockey hungry market. Wiether its the Pens or another team I expect Winnipeg to see a revival of the Jets within the next 5 to 10 years.

[SteelTown]

Hamilton will not get an NHL team for 3 reasons,

1) Toronto blocks it
2) Buffalo blocks it


If an NHL franchise would relocate to Hamilton, the team would have to pay territorial rights fees to the Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres. In 1997, Hamilton officials estimated those fees could be $75 million. Remember Jim Balsillie is a billionaire.

Montreal and Boston surely didn't block Ottawa from getting the Ottawa Senators.


3) Copps Colliseum is out of date compared to the modern NHL areas.

Copps Coliseum was solely built for an NHL team so when the designers made Copps it kept that in mind so it could be expanded in the future, that's why the roof can easily come off and expand for more corporate boxes and a new media centre. Now did the designers of the MTS Centre do the same so it could add more seats?

God it gets tiring having to repeat this kind of stuff over and over and over and over lol.

[vid]

'Now did the designers of the MTS Centre do the same so it could add more seats?'

The MTS Centres south-facing windows face North. :)

[jeicow]

First GO talks about finally expanding there and now this: K-W will hopefully be breaking the big leagues. Good News.

[FALLSVIEW]

I'm not knocking Hamilton but other than that one Canada Cup, when have you ever supported hockey? I still remember arguing with friends who said that Hamilton should have gotten a hockey franchise after the Canada Cup! "It was one freakin tournament." Well let me see you support a team that doesn't have the excitement of the best players in Canada on one team, or a team that has missed the playoffs 6 years in a row, or if you lose your best players year after year like Buffalo, because they want to play in a more marketable atmosphere. The realities of having a NHL franchise go well beyond what the perception was in that Canada Cup. Mind you having Syd the Kid would not be bad for the franchise, but I quarantee he won't stay long. The truth is that with today's salary structure Hamilton could make it work, before the strike not a chance! I just think that there are far too many markets that Gary Bettman would rather pursue, especially without a major network contract, it is after all about marketing in the states....We as Canadians have yet to figure this out.
Hockey might be our sport, but the NHL belongs to the rich, and money talks.

[Hootch]

Houston? Really? They don't even know what hockey is. :rolleyes:

Houston has a pretty respectable hockey history for it's location. They won the 1st Avco Cup in the WHA, and played to decent crowds. They have a 19,000 seat arena, Toyota Center, and is probably the biggest untapped market in the US. A team in Houston would instantly generate alot of buzz and become a natural rival for the Stars. I for one would love to see the NHL set up in Houston.

[Major AWACS]

Houston had Mr Howe for a few years for the Aeros back in the 70s.

And Yes OKC is trying also. According to the league media guide OKC has the most succesful minor league hockey team in North America.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Here in Europe we like things slow and with alcohol-even sex

[canucklehead2]

I have been a bit out of the loop. Is there talk of building a new NHL class arena in K-W? I think it would make more sense in some respects than Hamilton, if only for the geographic distance between Toronto, Buffalo, Detroit and K-W, though a case could be made certainly for Hamilton, since in the NYC area there are probably 3 times the population but the same number of hockey fans.

[FALLSVIEW]

Double Post

[FALLSVIEW]

K/W? Come on! is there anyone in this country who understands that the NHL is more than just filling an arena, you could put a franchise in every metro city across Canada and it would sell out 95% of the time. Do you really think that the powers that be, running this league out of an office in "NEW YORK CITY" want a team in Kitchener/Waterloo Ontario, Canada. The first thing they will ask is, where in the hell is Kitchener/Waterloo, and why in the hell does it have two names! I am not diregarding these cities, I am only stating the obvious. If I had it my way we would go back to a league made up of American cities in the north, and cities such as Hamilton, Kitchener, Winnipeg, Quebec, Halifax, Saskatoon among others would be in this league. This league lost it's luster for true fans when the Anaheim Mighty Ducks took to the ice. That is when I knew it was no longer about true North American hockey but about gimmick and marketing. Sorry but that is the cold hard truth.

[SteelTown]

I'm not knocking Hamilton but other than that one Canada Cup, when have you ever supported hockey?

In 1990 Copps Coliseum hosted the Memorial Cup the tournament that year set the highest attendance record for any single Memorial Cup game, on May 13th, 1990 at 17,383 spectators.

Hamilton has the 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups, 1990 Memorial Cup and the World Junior Championship games and each time that Hamilton has hosted these hockey tournaments they set Attendance records at the time of hosting them.

Back in 1990 when the City of Hamilton was chasing after expansion team 14,000 hockey fans made down payments for season tickets in less than 48 hrs with more wanting to purchase the tickets but the City of Hamilton capped it off at the 14,000-mark

[eemy]

That's likely because most of the teams in the CHL play out of arenas significantly smaller than Copp's Coliseum. I know that the Ottawa 67's have the attendance record for the OHL, but that's only because they were playing in the (at the time) Corel Centre. Actually, it's a bit of a shame that Hamilton doesn't have an OHL team. I know that they have an AHL team, but it seems that they're kind of out of the loop with the rest of the province. Would I rather be playing a team from Binghamton, or down the road from Kitchener? I know that the quality of hockey might be a bit better, but I imagine it's harder to get a good rivalry going.

[Dalreg]

Let me offer my two cents, for what its worth. Southern Ontario wants an NHL team. Won't happen. If someone is will to pay the Leafs a HUGE amount of cash maybe. But I don't think there is enough money in all the banks in Toronto. The leafs let another team willingly move into their market and split the revenue? You folks must all be mad!
As for an arena, yea Copps is there. But it would need millions in renovations just to get up to par with the rest of the league. But I guess my federal tax dollars could be used to add luxury boxes for the fat cats in Ontario.

[Only The Lonely..]

K/W? Come on! is there anyone in this country who understands that the NHL is more than just filling an arena, you could put a franchise in every metro city across Canada and it would sell out 95% of the time. Do you really think that the powers that be, running this league out of an office in "NEW YORK CITY" want a team in Kitchener/Waterloo Ontario, Canada. The first thing they will ask is, where in the hell is Kitchener/Waterloo, and why in the hell does it have two names! I am not diregarding these cities, I am only stating the obvious. If I had it my way we would go back to a league made up of American cities in the north, and cities such as Hamilton, Kitchener, Winnipeg, Quebec, Halifax, Saskatoon among others would be in this league. This league lost it's luster for true fans when the Anaheim Mighty Ducks took to the ice. That is when I knew it was no longer about true North American hockey but about gimmick and marketing. Sorry but that is the cold hard truth.

Amen Fallsview, very well said.

I'd love to see the Jets come back myself. Winnipeg is a hockey city through and through. However, Bettman isn't serious about giving us the opportunity to prove it.

I stopped caring about the NHL after the Jets left. Good thing the football season takes me through most of winter.

[GreatTallNorth2]

The differences between cities like Winnipeg and Kitchener/Waterloo are:

1) There is a mega, mega rich guy who loves his hometown Kitchener.

2) Kitchener has several million people within an hours drive. (Mississauga, Hamilton, London, Brantford, Guelph, Oakville, the list could go on). I'm very sure this area has a greater population base than Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and yes Winnipeg.

3) This area is going to continue to grow (unlike Winnipeg)

4) This area because of population base has great corporate appeal.

[SHOFEAR]

However, Bettman isn't serious about giving us the opportunity to prove it.


79-96.

Thats much more of an opportunity than Houston, Las Vegas, Milwaukee and OKC every got.

[Only The Lonely..]

I mean since the Jets left. In 1995 Izzy Asper wanted to buy the team as part of a larger ownership group, but Bettman had already closed his mind to the idea of keeping the team in the city.

[SHOFEAR]

The differences between cities like Winnipeg and Kitchener/Waterloo are:

1) There is a mega, mega rich guy who loves his hometown Kitchener.

2) Kitchener has several million people within an hours drive. (Mississauga, Hamilton, London, Brantford, Guelph, Oakville, the list could go on). I'm very sure this area has a greater population base than Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and yes Winnipeg.

3) This area is going to continue to grow (unlike Winnipeg)

4) This area because of population base has great corporate appeal.

5) No semi-suitable arena

6) Two nearby teams that probably already have a very loyal following. Money generated from a Winnipeg franchise is new revenue, a K/W franchise is just a shift (mostly) from the leafs wallet to K/W's.

7) At least Canadians can point out Winnipeg on a map.

[Only The Lonely..]

Kitchener will never have a team because its in Toronto's turf. If any Canadian city gets one it will be Winnipeg.

However, I have a hunch we'll see a team in Vegas before a new one pops up this side of the border.

[SHOFEAR]

I mean since the Jets left. In 1995 Izzy Asper wanted to buy the team as part of a larger ownership group, but Bettman had already closed his mind to the idea of keeping the team in the city.


So Bettman bent over backwards to help cities like Edmonton and Calgary but told Winnipeg and QC to piss off?

[SteelTown]

So Bettman bent over backwards to help cities like Edmonton and Calgary but told Winnipeg and QC to piss off?

I know Hamilton was told twice to piss off

[Only The Lonely..]

So Bettman bent over backwards to help cities like Edmonton and Calgary but told Winnipeg and QC to piss off?

Yes, that's a fact. He was hell bent on moving the team to the sunbelt, even when a local group tried to buy the team at the last minute. That's why he can never show his face again in this town. :whip:

[SHOFEAR]

I don't believe that Betman would just arbitrarly select Winnipeg as a sacrificial lamb or blacklist Hamilton. Those decisions were made with a reason(s). Arena issue's, territory rights, long time financial stability, pro's and con's for the overall health and appeal of the league....etc are some of the possible reasons such decisions were made. Maybe these factors have changed in the past ten years, maybe they haven't.

[Only The Lonely..]

I think alot of people forget that Edmonton and Calgary have a lot of synnergy between them. There's the rivalry which brings spectators from one city to another, then there's probably the fact that advertisers can reach two major markets with a single ad during a televised game.

In Winnipeg's defence, the city is an island in a vast frontier. It's 8 hours to Minneapolis and about 5 or so to Regina. We were one of the few cities in the NHL to be as isolated as we were.

For that reason, it's hard to watch the NHL knowing that i'll never be able to regularly goto an Oilers or Senators game. So a lot of people just stopped watching hockey altogether.

But we are definitely a hockey market. IF you need proof check out the '10 years ago today..the death of the jets' (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=104649)thread. I'm sure with a new downtown arena we'll see a hockey team in time.

I can't foresee the longterm viability of a team in Vegas, Timbucktu or whatever other ridiculous city they choose. Although, i'm sure they will go down trying.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2239/jets5ye.jpg

[caltrane74]

You know whats funny:

Anytime a Torontotian says Kitchener is in the "Toronto sphere" everyone here laughs.

But when Kitchener is about to get its own NHL team now its in Toronto area.

I totally dont get it. (btw Kitchener wont get a Team because its too close to Toronto, Hamilton wont either unless they want to pay the leafs a billion dollars for rights)

[Aralaus]

Southern Ontario won't get a new team. Infact, the entire north-east would have a hard time getting a new team. Too many teams are too close and there would be serious legal hurdles put up all across the board for any such relocation. Detroit, Toronto and Buffalo would specifically be angry with Hamilton or Kitchener-Waterloo...

As for the other proposed cities:
Houston - this is one that has intrigued me, and it would create a state of Texas rivalry which would hopefully bring hockey more to the forefront in that market. Very plausible.

OKC - you guys talked about how Winnipeg was isolated in the NHL? Okla-who? I mean, the only reason we know where this city is, is because it happens to share the state name.

Las Vegas - there is a reason why no professional sport wants to touch this with a ten-foot pole. Marketing and gimmick is another, turning into the WWE is something totally different. Not only would gambling (see: Pete Rose) totally taint any team there, but the ownership group would be made of pure moral fiber to avoid bringing in the Sean Averys and Jeremy Roenicks just to sell tickets despite being a total farce on the ice. Aint gonna happen.

Miluakuee - Possible but improbable. Wisconsin already has two kings: college sports and a little team known as the Green Bay Packers. The Bucks and Brewers are already little more than afterthoughts in Wis., and if homegrown American sports cant really explode, how can the NHL? I mean, the Gophers would still probably have more popularity than an NHL franchise... plus the Wild and Blackhawks are none too far. Interesting posssibility, but a long shot.

as for two markets i can see looking to bring the Penguins:

Portland - it amazes me that a city this size only has one professional team in any major sport. They have sought pro teams from just about anywhere just to give Portland some love. Its near Seattle as well (not a small market in itself), and far enough from Vancouver to co-exist, plus tapping into an empty market. Furthermore, $ is saved when the divisions re-align, with Minnesota going Central and Nashville or Columbus going to the eastern conference...

Kansas City - this city has not been quiet in its pursuit of a professional team as well. it IS a little close to St. Louis, but much like CGY/EDM, it creates an interesting battle in the great state of Missura (:)). Other pro teams have managed to get entrenched in the city, so it wouldn't surprise me if the NHL would work as well.

Most Likely: Kansas City
My favourite: Portland
Longshot: Houston
LOOOONGshots: Winnipeg, Hamilton

[DrJoe]

Any would-be team in K/W would do better financially than Edmonton, Calgary possibly Vancouver. You have about 5.5 million within a 100km radius of K/W, a huge corporate base in Toronto who can't get a piece of the Leafs that would leap all over the chance to get another team in southern Ontario. Leafs fans locked out of the ACC all these years would snatch up tickets faster than you could believe. I could go on and on, this team could be run by monkeys and be sucessful.

Honestly the problem is people don't really understand just how huge southern Ontario's population base is, they here "Waterloo" and role their eyes.

[SHOFEAR]

Las Vegas - there is a reason why no professional sport wants to touch this with a ten-foot pole. Marketing and gimmick is another, turning into the WWE is something totally different. Not only would gambling (see: Pete Rose) totally taint any team there, but the ownership group would be made of pure moral fiber to avoid bringing in the Sean Averys and Jeremy Roenicks just to sell tickets despite being a total farce on the ice. Aint gonna happen.

All valid points, but is there a market that has a brighter up side?

[SHOFEAR]

Any would-be team in K/W would do better financially than Edmonton, Calgary possibly Vancouver. You have about 5.5 million within a 100km radius of K/W, a huge corporate base in Toronto who can't get a piece of the Leafs that would leap all over the chance to get another team in southern Ontario. Leafs fans locked out of the ACC all these years would snatch up tickets faster than you could believe. I could go on and on, this team could be run by monkeys and be sucessful.

Honestly the problem is people don't really understand just how huge southern Ontario's population base is, they here "Waterloo" and role their eyes.

I don't think anybody has dismissed the southern Ontario market because of finances. That region could support a handful of teams, all of which would cut into the leafs pocket book while they remain successful (well, financially successful ;) ). The Leafs would never allow it though.

[eemy]

Okay, I live in Waterloo and roll my eyes when people suggest it will work. Television rights are extremely important, and yes, you can pay a billion dollars, but what do you get? Whether it's Hamilton or Kitchener, either team's television market would be very small. Probably less than a million people. In the case of Kitchener, not likely many more than half a million. I know there's a lot of support for a team in Hamilton, and if you get the right person with a lot of commitment to the idea, and the stars line up right, it might happen. But I expect it would be a rough ride, and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see it fail. Stranger things have happened though.

[Canadian Mind]

I dunno about portland. I know of quite a number of cases of americans from tacoma, seattle, and sometimes even portland coming all the way up to see the canucks. Its not just vancouvers team, its all of cascadias team. putting a team in portland would take a small chunk of them away, aswell as many seattle folk who'd rather root for a fellow american team than a vancouverite team. Would create quite a rivalry for sure, but if thats what you want out of it best go for seattle. that way whenever we play eachother it will be equall number of fans rooting for each team (no matter what arena your in)

[bc2mb]

winnipeg will have an NHL team before K-W ever does...

[bc2mb]

winnipeg will have an NHL team back again before K-W gets one...

[FALLSVIEW]

I am floored at the fact that Kitchener is still being talked about, when I first read this, I thought it was just a fellow forumer daydreaming about how his city could play with the big boys ,and then we would go back to reality. Now I find myself in awe at the thought that someone thinks that, because a very rich man who happens to love his hometown of Kitchener could somehow find a way to get a future NHL franchise for this city. I am all for hometown spirit and hometown pride but, are you serious! This is a great OHL market maybe AHL, but that is as big as it gets. Earlier I dismissed Hamilton, but if I could add this, there are two markets in this Country that have a somewhat rational appeal to the NHL. They are Winnipeg I think an incredible hockey market, and I personally really miss The Jets and those days of hockey. And Hamilton, unproven but would do well within there own vicinity. I will say it again though, that the front office of the NHL has no ambition of putting another non-marketable franchise in Canada. As unfair as it was and is to Hamilton, Ottawa was the last train!

[GreatTallNorth2]

What we are really talking about here is a Southern Ontario team, not just a K-W team. I just thought it made sense due to the fact that K-W is in the middle of the population area and the RIM guy is from there. Also Kitchener is talking of putting a brand new arena in the Centre Block of the downtown. You guys probably laugh at Kitchener, but do you realize they are in serious planning of Light Rail transit also? Are you listening Winnipeg? Winnipeg might be a great city of the past for Canada, but K-W will play a greater role in the future and no doubt that Southern Ontario could EASILY support an NHL team, wherever it is

[Deez]

Okay, I live in Waterloo and roll my eyes when people suggest it will work. Television rights are extremely important, and yes, you can pay a billion dollars, but what do you get? Whether it's Hamilton or Kitchener, either team's television market would be very small. Probably less than a million people. In the case of Kitchener, not likely many more than half a million. I know there's a lot of support for a team in Hamilton, and if you get the right person with a lot of commitment to the idea, and the stars line up right, it might happen. But I expect it would be a rough ride, and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see it fail. Stranger things have happened though.

Word. Being a part time resident myself, I know what the steez is.

Some of you are totally disillusioned. ie:

) Kitchener has several million people within an hours drive. (Mississauga, Hamilton, London, Brantford, Guelph, Oakville, the list could go on). I'm very sure this area has a greater population base than Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and yes Winnipeg.

Those several million people happen to live in Toronto and are quite content with cheering for the Leafs (and I hate them so much-->Go Sens). Come to think of it, people in Kitchener are quite content with cheering for the Leafs...however, Caltrane, that doesn't make them part of the GTA.

In my mind, the *only* city that deserves a franchise right now is Winnipeg because a) there are no Leaf's fans there and b) it's in hockey country.

However, the team *will* go to a city either within a few hundred km's of the gulf of Mexico or somewhere in Tornado Alley.

[Only The Lonely..]

What we are really talking about here is a Southern Ontario team, not just a K-W team. I just thought it made sense due to the fact that K-W is in the middle of the population area and the RIM guy is from there. Also Kitchener is talking of putting a brand new arena in the Centre Block of the downtown. You guys probably laugh at Kitchener, but do you realize they are in serious planning of Light Rail transit also? Are you listening Winnipeg? Winnipeg might be a great city of the past for Canada, but K-W will play a greater role in the future and no doubt that Southern Ontario could EASILY support an NHL team, wherever it is


How can you slag Winnipeg, a city of 700,000 in its metro, and say the Peg's best days are behind it? Last I checked there was this little thing called hydro electricity that will probably be all the rage for the next couple of centuries. Manitoba as one of the largest hydro producers in N. America, has the good fortune of sitting next to a power hungry neighbour. My guess is Winnipeg will probably do quite well for itself in the years to come.

In any case, Winnipeg will have a team long before Kitchener for the reasons stated by the rest of the board.

It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow..but the Peg's due baby!

:banaride:

Go Jets Go !

[realcity]

Copps is only 20 years old. Why does everyone say its out of date, when they know frig all about it? Corporate boxes were never installed that doesn't make it out of date. They were always waiting for a NHL team before they patched-on some corporate boxes. How old was ML Gardens before they retired it? Copps is gorgeous venue, there's not a bad seat in the 18,000, huge concourse levels that even with a sell out have plenty of room, great bathrooms, snack bars, it could use a good restaurant like JLC in London.

[FALLSVIEW]

Honestly Realcity, it's not a slap on Copps, 10, 7 even 5 years nowadays is out of date! I love Copps, and the only thing I have never liked is the seats, if they were your typical burgandy seats it would look much more refreshing and updated. Although it is what makes it unique to every other cookie cutter arena built today.

[habsfan]

How can you slag Winnipeg, a city of 700,000 in its metro, and say the Peg's best days are behind it? Last I checked there was this little thing called hydro electricity that will probably be all the rage for the next couple of centuries. Manitoba as one of the largest hydro producers in N. America, has the good fortune of sitting next to a power hungry neighbour. My guess is Winnipeg will probably do quite well for itself in the years to come.


Hey hey hey, you guys might get some competition from THE largest producer of Hydro electricity in N-A (if not The World!!!);) :cheers:

Looking forward to the day when electricity cost start costing more, then we'll finally go through our big BOOM!

[MolsonExport]

Hydroelectric generation "generates" very few jobs.

[habsfan]

Hydroelectric generation "generates" very few jobs.

I was thinking along the lines of More money for the province, therefore either more money for the masses or a significant reduction of our Debt!

[Only The Lonely..]

Quebec and MB will hopefully one day enjoy Alberta style prosperity. Whether it be from the sale of water directly to the U.S , hydro electric production , or using our hydro electric capacity to generate hydrogen.

The way I see it, a lot more things in the world use electricity than gasoline. As we continue to see a greater proliferation of electronic gizmos i'm sure both provinces will stand to see a greater interest in their hydro electric capabilities.

Who know's what the 21st century holds, were still in the very early years of it. Hydrogen could be very big in the decades to come. Afterall, at the beginning of the 20th century they were still buring kerosene , who could have guessed that gasoline would become so big.

Alrighty, I know I went off topic....Commence hockey speak now.

[habsfan]

Quebec and MB will hopefully one day enjoy Alberta style prosperity. Whether it be from the sale of water directly to the U.S , hydro electric production , or using our hydro electric capacity to generate hydrogen.

The way I see it, a lot more things in the world use electricity than gasoline. As we continue to see a greater proliferation of electronic gizmos i'm sure both provinces will stand to see a greater interest in their hydro electric capabilities.

Alrighty, I know I went off topic....Commence hockey speak now.

Very true!

BY the way, i was just yanking your chain!!;) :tup: :cheers: :D

[Only The Lonely..]

I know...:tup:

Just hold on to your house in Montreal. In a decade or twos time it could be worth a million bucks. Haha ...I'm glad I'm already set here in Winnipeg.

Here's to the Hydro boom..and the return of the Jets !

Heck, bring back the Nordiques too while your at it.

[SteelTown]

RIM's Balsillie graduates to 'no comment' on NHL talk
By Steve Milton
The Hamilton Spectator

Jim Balsillie has a ball playing hockey, but he won't play ball about hockey.

The chairman and co-CEO of Research in Motion, the Waterloo-based company which makes the BlackBerry wireless platform, and is about to release the long-awaited Pearl high-tech phone, refused again to discuss his rumoured involvement in buying the Pittsburgh Penguins.

"No comment, not about hockey," Balsillie said to The Spec after addressing a downtown Speakers Forum session on wireless technology yesterday.

Balsillie is believed to be the main man behind the latest move to bring NHL hockey to Hamilton's Copps Coliseum and reports out of Pittsburgh over the weekend indicated that his group's offer was the best bid.

He has consistently refused to even acknowledge that he is interested in purchasing an NHL team, but over the weekend seemed to waver a little when he offered "no comment," in response to questions from Pittsburgh media.

"The problem is that if you say anything, the next time someone asks, if you say 'no comment', they wonder why you said 'no' last time," Balsillie responded to a question from the floor yesterday.

Balsillie, who plays hockey, said he will not be at Copps Coliseum this Saturday night for the Penguins' exhibition game against the Buffalo Sabres, because he will be in Australia.

He cautioned the media about believing rumours and said that he would continue to offer no comment on questions about the NHL.

"You're in for a penny, in for a pound, especially on something of such a highly speculative nature."

[SHOFEAR]

Copps is only 20 years old. Why does everyone say its out of date, when they know frig all about it? Corporate boxes were never installed that doesn't make it out of date. They were always waiting for a NHL team before they patched-on some corporate boxes. How old was ML Gardens before they retired it? Copps is gorgeous venue, there's not a bad seat in the 18,000, huge concourse levels that even with a sell out have plenty of room, great bathrooms, snack bars, it could use a good restaurant like JLC in London.

Well it's not MLG. The old gardens built for the original six were built to last. Thats why many of them lasted to seat generations of fans. buildings been since then, especially leading up to the arena boom in the 90's, were not. It may look good, it may have good sightlines, it may have capacity to add boxes...but it's the stuff you can't see that are going to be needed to be replaced in the next 15 years or so.

It may be suitable for a decade or so, given some minor seating changes. But to hear people from hamilton say they have this state of the art arena just sitting there waiting for a NHL team isn't correct. There are other barns in US cities that are state of the art that are just sitting there also pursueing teams.

[SteelTown]

Move some NHL teams back to Canada

It's time for the National Hockey League to bite the bullet and high tail it back to Canada.

It's not that the NHL is on life-support in the United States. Far from it. It's alive and well, for the most part. There are a lot of solid markets in the U.S. and youth hockey is a growing sport in parts of Texas, California, Florida and Arizona.

The vital signs are good.

But the NHL should play to its strengths and move a couple of franchises north of the border. The NHL has nothing to lose and much to gain by going back to its roots.

Consider the following:

The Calgary Flames had 19,289 fans for their first preseason game last weekend. The Flames packed the Saddledome tighter than a sardine can on same day they depleted their stock of single seats for their 42 home regular-season games.

The very next day in Winnipeg, the 15,000-plus seat MTS Centre was jammed full for an exhibition game between the Phoenix Coyotes (formerly the Winnipeg Jets) and Edmonton Oilers. The Jets moved to Phoenix in 1996, ending 17 years of NHL hockey in Winnipeg. There have been three other exhibition games in the city, but this was the first time the Coyotes have played in Winnipeg.

The Toronto Maple Leafs players were in the midst of having their pre-camp medicals when the airwaves in the unofficial hockey capital of the world were buzzing with speculation whether the blue and white had what it takes to make the Stanley Cup playoffs next April.

It's the same story in Vancouver, Ottawa and Montreal.

It's hockey, hockey, hockey, all the time.

Raise your hand if you can guess which sport leads off the highlight package on the sports channels on televisions across the country night after night.

Not baseball. Not football.

Sports fans in Canada just aren't paying as much attention to NCAA football, MLB's playoff races, the NFL, golf, you name it, as they are paying to hockey.

And the NHL won't be on the radar screens in the United States until the Super Bowl is over. League executives will argue otherwise, but...

That's why the NHL has to look north and the sooner the better.

That said, the question becomes: Which teams do you move and where do you move them to?

Let's start with Pittsburgh.

The Penguins are for sale. Why not Hamilton (Ontario)? But you might want to change the nickname.

If the New York market can claim to support three teams — the Rangers, Islanders and the New Jersey Devils — and if the Los Angeles market can have the Kings and the Anaheim Ducks, then it makes both common and economic sense that the Toronto-Hamilton corridor can support another team.

And forget the notion that the Leafs would have to be bought off to allow a team in Hamilton to invade their so-called territorial rights. The Leafs have made millions and millions of dollars in profit over the years and so what if they take a 20 percent hit? What's better than a little rivalry with a team a short slap shot down the freeway?

And as far as paying indemnification to the Buffalo Sabres, that's another argument that doesn't wash as far as this correspondent is concerned. The Sabres benefit from the NHL's revenue-sharing formula. A team in Hamilton should not be burdened with paying off its closest neighbors.

The other NHL franchise that could — and some say should — be pegged for a change of address card is the Florida Panthers.

The Panthers could move to Winnipeg, or possibly Quebec City, former home of the Colorado Avalanche.

Even Wayne Gretzky sees the benefits of having the NHL back in Winnipeg.

"When the franchise left years ago, there were a lot of reasons as to why the team left," Gretzky told the Winnipeg Sun prior to the game between his Coyotes and the Oilers. "A lot of those issues have sort of changed. By that, I mean the salary cap, obviously, revenue-sharing to a certain degree, the American-Canadian dollar is stronger than it was ... and the new facility.

"So there's a lot more in favor of Winnipeg maybe someday getting an NHL franchise back."

There it is.

Bring the NHL back to Canada, and the sooner the better for the game, the NHL and its fans.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/5989100

[habsfan]

in the unofficial hockey capital of the world

good article.

Only problem is that this writer has no clue as to where the Mecca of hockey is. He just thinks that because toronto is the biggest city in canada that it is the hockey capital..bull sh.it!

We all know where the REAL mecca is!

[WZ1]

Amen, but LORD Bettman wont ever give in, he hates Canada.

[Bus pass]

How long until Bettman retiress/dies? He's a serious cancer on the NHL.

[SHOFEAR]

How long until Bettman retiress/dies? He's a serious cancer on the NHL.

Amen, but LORD Bettman wont ever give in, he hates Canada.


The same guy who pissed off all the big market teams to make sure teams like Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa would be able to compete? Yeah, he really hates us. On one hand you have NHL fans in Detroit, Colorado...etc saying this guy nearly wiped out this league for us little guys, then you get Canadians saying he doesn't give a shit about us. You can't please all goups, and by no means is he perfect but moe oftn than not the harsh criticism towards him is not deserved.

[habsfan]

and by no means is he perfect but moe oftn than not the harsh criticism towards him is not deserved.

Totally agree with you on that!

[drew]

[QUOTE=SHOtime]The same guy who pissed off all the big market teams to make sure teams like Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa would be able to compete? Yeah, he really hates us. /QUOTE]

It was only after the demise of the NHL in Winnipeg and Quebec that Bettman started to rally around the remaining small market Canadian teams.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Won't Toronto want a team now too?

Even though you are trying to be sarcastic the fact of the matter is YES Toronto then will want an NHL team there too....I hear from many people all the time that one of the main reasons why Hamilton won't get an NHL team is because the Toronto Maple Leafs would never allow it to happen because of Hamilton's close proximity to it...these are the same people who will find other reasons to why it would never work here in Hamilton with reasons like; "It's too close to Buffalo"..."The Americans in New York run today's NHL and nobody there knows where the hell Hamilton is, yada yada yada..."....with each of these points I would like to expand on them some more.......

First: TORONTO WILL THEN WANT AN NHL TEAM TOO:

There are plenty of Hockey Fans in the GTA who are frustrated at watching lesser hockey markets like Carolinas and the Tampa Bays of the World capture the Stanley Cup in such a short time of their existance and yet the so-called MECA of Hockey Toronto has gone on without a Stanley Cup parade within it's City boundaries since 1967...the other thing to note here as well is Toronto has alot of wealthy folks who can afford buy an NHL team for themselves...and it's common accepted knowledge by most folks that Toronto would EASILY be able to Support a second NHL franchise with no problems whatsoever....and the same people who argue that Hamilton would never get an NHL team because the Maple Leafs would never allow it to happen go on to add that if another team were to be added to the area it would and it SHOULD go to Toronto....yet there's a major flaw in the thinking of these people...If the Maple Leafs would deny Hamilton a chance of having their very own NHL team then what makes these people think that the Maple Leafs would allow for another NHL team to be placed within the same City that the Maple Leafs play out of???.....

.........and that's not all....I think the NHL wouldn't mind seeing another NHL club in Toronto to take advantage of all the Hockey fans living in the GTA who can't make it to NHL games at ACC because game tickets are already snapped up by lifetime season's ticket holders...PLUS add to the fact that not everybody in Toronto is a fan of the Maple Leafs....but the question then becomes would the Maple Leafs allow for another team to play there in Toronto?.....

The other thing to keep in mind here is there is a split in the Maple Leafs ownership much in the same manner that there was with the Minnesota North Stars....remember them?...when the ownership group of the North Stars split up, one group packed up their bags and started up a new team in San Jose called the Sharks and the other group packed up their bags and moved the team South to Dallas where they became known as the Stars...now I'm not suggesting here for a second that the Leafs will be moving south to Hamilton but what I am suggesting here is I think it's possible for one of the groups who own the Maple Leafs to be involved with Jim Balsillie (Kitchener investor rumoured to be wanting to move the Penguins to Hamilton)...you see the way I see it sooner or later there will be a wealthy individual or group wanting to place another NHL team there in Toronto and the last thing the Maple Leafs want to see happen is have another NHL team there share the City of Toronto with them...the Leafs want Toronto all to themselves...But I think if such a person/ group came along the NHL would pressure the Maple Leafs to allow a second NHL team to be based in Toronto...this is why I can see Hamilton getting the team with the blessing of the Maple Leafs...the Maple Leafs know that there's no shortage of wealthy investors who would like to place another NHL team there in their City but if the Leafs had the choice of having the second team there in Toronto OR HAMILTON they would quickly side with Hamilton cause as far as they are concerned the farther away from downtown Toronto the second NHL team in the GTA is then the better it will be for them...they would still have all of Toronto to themselves and with the second team in Hamilton is would lessen the chances of someone else trying to place another NHL club there in Toronto because then the new guys wanting to place the second team there in Toronto would have to pay a territory fee to both the Maple Leafs and Team Hamilton...furthermore if there's a split in the Leafs ownership group and one of the parties ends up being part of the ownership group in Hamilton with Jim Balsillie then the Maple Leafs may actually wave the territory fee and only have to deal with the Buffalo Sabres when it comes to this Territory fee............

Secondly: HAMILTON IS TOO CLOSE TO BUFFALO

I don't know about everybody else but to me this is not a problem whatsoever but an advantage for both Team Hamilton and the Buffalo Sabres...you could have both these clubs housed in the same division and they would become instant rivals...PLus the extra games against one another means that travel expenses (which are becoming a big concern for Pro Sports teams everyday) would be cheap because of the close proximity to each other along with Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal all playing in the same North east division...........back in 1990 when the City of Hamilton was chasing after an NHL expansion team the NHL was ready to hand over the new team to Hamilton but at the last possible second then owner of the Buffalo Sabres; Seymour Knox III blocked it from happening and the NHL then awarded the new teams to both Tampa Bay (Lightning) and Ottawa (Senators) who didn't even have an NHL calibre rink built at the time FURTHERMORE the NHL even allowed for the new Ottawa franchise to play out of a smallish OHL Arena; home of the Ottawa 67s until their NHL Rink was built in KANATA Ontario.........today However the Buffalo Sabres are under different ownership group...it's not the same group that owned them back in 1990 and the club has gone through with at least 3 ownership changes since then PLUS add to the fact the Buffalo Sabres posted a profit last NHL season for the first time in nearly 2-decades...this will be Team Hamilton's biggest hurdle but I think the new group involved with wanting to bring the NHL to Hamilton have done their homework and don't want a repeat of what happened back in 1990 when Ron Joyce (Tim Hortons franchisor) found out about the Sabres blocking NHL from landing at Copps Coliseum on York and Bay...I mean we've been reading in the Papers that Jim Balsillie's group is the one who has offered Mario Lemieux's Pittsburgh Penguins the most money to buy the hockey team out of all the groups interested...so my thinking on the matter is why would Jim Balsillie ante up $175-million to the Penguins and then try to move the team to Hamilton only to find out afterwards that the Buffalo Sabres would block it?....It would be a waste of money on his part and his partners.....so there is one of 3 things I think may be happening here with this scenario:

(1) Jim Balsillie and his partners have already had discussions here with the Buffalo Sabres current owners and have their blessing to move the team to Hamilton.......

(2) Jim Balsillie and his partners have NOT had discussions here with the current owners of the Buffalo Sabres and will try to move the Penguins to Hamilton anyways BUT then if he finds out AFTERWARDS that the Buffalo Sabres would block NHL team from playing in Hamilton he would resort to Plan B and build a brand new NHL-calibre rink in the Kitchener-Waterloo region where it's just 30-minutes west of Hamilton and MORE IMPORTANTLY OUTSIDE the Buffalo Sabres territory and he and his partners would then only have to deal with the Toronto Maple Leafs.........

(3) Third and final option would be he moves Penguins to Hamilton, Buffalo Sabres tries to block him and his wealthy partners hire for themselves the Top Toronto Lawyers that money can buy and challenge the Buffalo Sabres owners in court over an attempted block of the NHL in Hamilton....Hamilton would CLEARLY have a case in the Court of Law...something they didn't have the BALLS or the BRAINS to do back in 1990 when the Buffalo Sabres blocked them from having the NHL expansion team.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

5) No semi-suitable arena

6) Two nearby teams that probably already have a very loyal following. Money generated from a Winnipeg franchise is new revenue, a K/W franchise is just a shift (mostly) from the leafs wallet to K/W's.

7) At least Canadians can point out Winnipeg on a map.

First of all when it comes to the Winnipeg Jets they will be hard-pressed to get an NHL team....Gary Bettman and the NHL will never forget the #1 reason why the Jets left Winnipeg...the City there refused to build them a brand new Arena when they had the chance to do so and so they left town and moved down to Phoenix Arizona and became known as the Coyotes.......Ya so now today Winnipeg has a brand new Rink which only houses around 15,000 and would make it the smallest rink in the NHL....add to the fact the Winnipeg doesn't have the Population base that we have here in Southern Ontario.....Winnipeg and Hamilton are relatively same size Cities at around the 700,000-mark HOWEVER the Major difference between the two is within a 30-minute radius of Hamilton you have close to 2-million people (Hamilton-Burlington-St.Catherines-Brantford-Oakville-Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge) whereas with Winnipeg within the 30-minute radius you are still stuck at around the 700,000-mark well, slightly above that but not much more....add to the fact that the Southern Ontario region is ENGINE that drives the Canadian Economy..........

2 Points to note here:

(1) With NHL team in Hamilton able to draw close to 2-million people within a 30-minute radius this would then make it the 4th biggest NHL market in Canada ahead of Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton

(2) If Winnipeg is so eager to bring NHL back to it's City then why when they built the new Rink they ONLY made it a 15,000-seater?

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

K/W? Come on! is there anyone in this country who understands that the NHL is more than just filling an arena, you could put a franchise in every metro city across Canada and it would sell out 95% of the time. Do you really think that the powers that be, running this league out of an office in "NEW YORK CITY" want a team in Kitchener/Waterloo Ontario, Canada. The first thing they will ask is, where in the hell is Kitchener/Waterloo, and why in the hell does it have two names! I am not diregarding these cities, I am only stating the obvious. If I had it my way we would go back to a league made up of American cities in the north, and cities such as Hamilton, Kitchener, Winnipeg, Quebec, Halifax, Saskatoon among others would be in this league. This league lost it's luster for true fans when the Anaheim Mighty Ducks took to the ice. That is when I knew it was no longer about true North American hockey but about gimmick and marketing. Sorry but that is the cold hard truth.

Who cares about what New York City thinks....I mean I know they are probably wealthiest City in the World...NHL has it's head offices there but there's a couple of things you have to think about here:

(1) Ya MOST New Yorkers probably have never really heard of Kitchener or Hamilton before but I don't think that when a team from Carolina comes to Madison Square Gardens in NY it doesn't exactly send shivers up-and-down the spines of New Yorkers but so what and guess what?....Carolina Hurricanes are the defending Stanley Cup Champions....furthermore when the other Canadian teams visit the Big Apple the Gardens in NY gets sold out too.....so it won't be a problem for New Yorkers........

(2) If an NHL team lands in Hamilton then what the U.S.-based NHL clubs need to do is borrow a page from the NBA on how to promote their League....for example: If Team Hamilton visits New York to take on the Rangers you don't tell New Yorkers that HAMILTON is coming to town what you do instead is tell them that THE SYDNEY CROSBY SHOW IS IN TOWN....just like with the NBA the NHL needs to start doing a better job of promoting it's Star Players....Everybody knows Kobe, Shaq, Nash, Carter, etc, etc....NHL need to start doing MUCH better job of promoting Crosby, Ovechkin, Thornton and Staal.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

In 1990 Copps Coliseum hosted the Memorial Cup the tournament that year set the highest attendance record for any single Memorial Cup game, on May 13th, 1990 at 17,383 spectators.

Hamilton has the 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups, 1990 Memorial Cup and the World Junior Championship games and each time that Hamilton has hosted these hockey tournaments they set Attendance records at the time of hosting them.

Back in 1990 when the City of Hamilton was chasing after expansion team 14,000 hockey fans made down payments for season tickets in less than 48 hrs with more wanting to purchase the tickets but the City of Hamilton capped it off at the 14,000-mark

Exactly well said....couldn't have said it better myself.........

I'd like to expand some more on your last point....back in 1990 when the City of Hamilton was chasing after the NHL expansion team and they had 14,000 PLUS fans make down payments for season's tickets in Less than 48-hours with MORE wanting to make the down payments but City of Hamilton capped it off at the 14,000-mark...........some may argue that most of these fans were from Toronto but not so....they did a market study on where these fans came from that made the down payments and 85% of them originated from within the 30-minute radius of Hamilton which includes the towns of Burlington, Oakville to the North....St.Catharines area to the East....Wayne Gretzky's hometown of Brantford to the South and the Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge region just west of us here in Hamilton....the rest (15%) came from the GTA, Niagara Falls and South West Ontario regions......so an NHL team here in Hamilton would not only SURVIVE here as well it would THRIVE here with or without the support of the Hockey fans from the GTA.......but having said that just the spill over of hockey fans that can't make it to Maple Leafs games up the road at ACC would make it a Booming success.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

I mean since the Jets left. In 1995 Izzy Asper wanted to buy the team as part of a larger ownership group, but Bettman had already closed his mind to the idea of keeping the team in the city.

Let's be realistic here just for a second....the only reason why Winnipeg was ever in the NHL in the first place is because they were first with the WHA and when that League folded the 4 surviving clubs merged with the NHL....since then 3 of those 4 ex-WHA Cities have lost their NHL clubs; almost like there's some hidden agenda by the NHL to get rid of teams that were once involved with a League that rivaled them:

(1) Quebec Nordiques--->Colorado Avalanche (2-Stanley Cups)
(2) Hartford Whalers---->Carolina Hurricanes (1-Stanley Cup; last season)
(3) Winnipeg Jets------->Phoenix Coyotes (Is Gretzky's team next w/ Cup?)

The only team left over from the WHA that is still around in today's NHL are the Edmonton Oilers....Wayne Gretzky's old team.

Now that's not to take anything away from the enthusiasm and support of the hockey fans there in the Peg but the main reason why most Winnipeggers seem to think they still have a shot at the NHL is because they already had an NHL team Via the WHA.....If Winnipeg never had an NHL team would they still feel they had a great shot of landing an NHL team there in their City in 2006?.....hmmmm.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

5) No semi-suitable arena

6) Two nearby teams that probably already have a very loyal following. Money generated from a Winnipeg franchise is new revenue, a K/W franchise is just a shift (mostly) from the leafs wallet to K/W's.

7) At least Canadians can point out Winnipeg on a map.

Copps Coliseum is a good start....may not be up to snuff by today's NHL standards but when it was built back in the 1980s it was the talk around Hockey circles as a jewel of a Hockey rink.....furthermore, it would only take 6-months TOPS for all the necessary upgrades and renovations required to bring Copps Coliseum up to date by "NHL standards"........add to the fact that if the NHL OK'd Ottawa Senators to play it's first couple of seasons in the NHL out of a Junior Hockey rink; home of the OHL 67s which had seating capacity of around 9,000 then surely they will allow for a Team Hamilton to play it's first couple of season's out of a 17,500-seater Copps Coliseum....upgrades would be done in the off season and quite possibly have the first dozen or so games of the following season be Road games until the construction upgrades are completed........

Secondly, I know that Winnipeg has a new rink but a 15,000-seater is nothing to be tooting your horn about...waaay to small by NHL standards.....

Thirldly, having 2 nearby teams is not a problem....we have 2 nearby teams because we have the Population base to support them....Unlike Winnipeg, Hamilton and Southern Ontario's Population and Economies continue to Boom whereas Winnipeg's population is stable and economy is Flat with no improvements whatsoever for the future...there's enough room to add another NHL club to the Southern Ontario region simply because we have the Population-base and the money; two things that Winnipeg region doesn't even come close to matching with the Southern Ontario region.......

Last but not least....If you can't point out Hamilton and Kitchener on your Map then maybe there's a problem with the Educational system there in the Province of Manitoba? :D

[Smron]

There will never be an NHL team in Hamilton.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Kitchener? There's other principalities in Ontario besides Toronto and Ottawa? ;)

It's a fair argument about Winnipeg and the WHA. For hockey in Canada I would love a team in Winnipeg. Factoring in real economics, I doubt the NHL would move back to Winnipeg. Then again the following metros have teams (whether that is a good idea or not):

Raleigh ~900,000
Edmonton ~1,000,000
Calgary ~1,000,000
Buffalo ~1,100,000
Ottawa ~1,100,000
Nashville ~1,300,000
Columbus ~1,600,000
San Jose ~1,700,000 (although San Francisco area is ~7,500,000)

[SHOFEAR]

Copps Coliseum is a good start....may not be up to snuff by today's NHL standards but when it was built back in the 1980s it was the talk around Hockey circles as a jewel of a Hockey rink.....furthermore, it would only take 6-months TOPS for all the necessary upgrades and renovations required to bring Copps Coliseum up to date by "NHL standards"........add to the fact that if the NHL OK'd Ottawa Senators to play it's first couple of seasons in the NHL out of a Junior Hockey rink; home of the OHL 67s which had seating capacity of around 9,000 then surely they will allow for a Team Hamilton to play it's first couple of season's out of a 17,500-seater Copps Coliseum....upgrades would be done in the off season and quite possibly have the first dozen or so games of the following season be Road games until the construction upgrades are completed........

Secondly, I know that Winnipeg has a new rink but a 15,000-seater is nothing to be tooting your horn about...waaay to small by NHL standards.....

Thirldly, having 2 nearby teams is not a problem....we have 2 nearby teams because we have the Population base to support them....Unlike Winnipeg, Hamilton and Southern Ontario's Population and Economies continue to Boom whereas Winnipeg's population is stable and economy is Flat with no improvements whatsoever for the future...there's enough room to add another NHL club to the Southern Ontario region simply because we have the Population-base and the money; two things that Winnipeg region doesn't even come close to matching with the Southern Ontario region.......

D

I have never said Winnipeg will get a team. Read all my responses, you will find that all I have done was poked holes into peoples arguements for teams in either city.

I really don't care if Winnipeg or Hamilton ever gets a team. My opinions are based on fact and logic not biased emotional attachment.

It seems like I've said it a million times. There is no question there is enough money and population to make it work in Hamilton. But as it stands right now the Leafs won't allow it and will do anything to block such a move.

Last but not least....If you can't point out Hamilton and Kitchener on your Map then maybe there's a problem with the Educational system there in the Province of Manitoba? :

Notice how my location says "City of Champions"? Does that sound like anywhere in Manitoba?

[SHOFEAR]

The same guy who pissed off all the big market teams to make sure teams like Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa would be able to compete? Yeah, he really hates us.

It was only after the demise of the NHL in Winnipeg and Quebec that Bettman started to rally around the remaining small market Canadian teams.

But he brought in the Senators a few years before those teams folded....


All Edmonton/Calgary/Ottawa wanted was a fair financial situation where team spending was inline with other leagues. If that's the case, we will be able to survive. Maybe...just maybe... he recognized Winnipeg and Qc were not going to be able to compete under that type of financial arangement.

[waterloowarrior]

Notice how my location says "City of Champions"? Does that sound like anywhere in Manitoba?

:haha:

[FALLSVIEW]

Boomtown Hamilton you bring up some great points and must have some pretty sore eyes and fingers after that novel you just wrote. A couple of notes here though...

Who cares about what New York City thinks....I mean I know they are probably wealthiest City in the World...NHL has it's head offices there but there's a couple of things you have to think about here:

Nobody is talking about the city of New York here, we are talking about the league office in New York that has never grasped the concept of marketing its players properly, as you stated earlier.

just like with the NBA the NHL needs to start doing a better job of promoting it's Star Players....Everybody knows Kobe, Shaq, Nash, Carter, etc, etc....NHL need to start doing MUCH better job of promoting Crosby, Ovechkin, Thornton and Staal.

Do you know why the NBA is so popular, they understand that the key to marketing your players is about the perception that they are larger than life and are better than they actually are. Watch an NBA game in person and 75% of your time in the arena is made up of cheerleaders riling up the crowd during commercial breaks, the game itself can sometimes be slow with the occasional slam dunk, three pointer and smooth pass for a great lay-up. It is only when a game is close in the final 2 minutes that it becomes truly exciting. Now watch NBA's Inside Stuff weekend show and you would think these players could walk on water, the right quitar riff and a nasty dunk ala MTV style goes a long way in selling a product too todays fan. And before you say that is geared toward the younger generation, now go to a live sporting event and watch Grand-pa tapping his feet to AC/DC's Back in Black in between the puck dropping. It pumps up the "event." The reason that Winnipeg was in the league was because there was actually a time when the game itself mattered, and the boards weren't filled with advertising. Winnipeg had a team because in that world, a great hockey market meant you loved and adored your home team, and you showed up to the arena to cheer them on. Today a great hockey market consists of how good are your television and radio deals, how much do you get for you luxury boxes, and do you have a player that the residents of your city can relate too.

I have said it before and I will say it again, marketing is perception. The people in the States who love Nascar, Football, Basketball, and that tiny little BASEBALL, say they can't follow hockey because they can't see the puck, or they don't like fighting, this is the USA we are talking about. They don't follow it because they can't relate to these Canadian kids who skate around with sticks, and say eh all the time. There is a reason that Hockey became popular during the L.A Gretzky day's. It's easy, they introduced new uniforms with cool colors, and the single greatest player in hockey was now playing in the second largest television market in the USA. At last they had something to cheer for in this sport. The last truly marketable player's were Messier with the Stanley Cup champion Rangers and Lindros with the Flyers.

So the reason I say that New York doesn't want your city isn't because you can't support a team, it's because they are in dire need of some much needed marketing in the States too get a television contract and fan support. I live in Niagara, so believe me I would be there opening night, but the league can't market another team in Canada to get what they need for ratings. They blew it a long time ago Hamilton, when they neglected to market there brightest stars.

[Dalreg]

So the reason I say that New York doesn't want your city isn't because you can't support a team, it's because they are in dire need of some much needed marketing in the States too get a television contract and fan support. I live in Niagara, so believe me I would be there opening night, but the league can't market another team in Canada to get what they need for ratings. They blew it a long time ago Hamilton, when they neglected to market there brightest stars.

This is probably the biggest reason Hamilton/Waterloo/London/Southern Ontario will not get a team. Either by expansion or relocation. The market is already covered by quite a few teams. Toronto,Buffalo,Detroit,etc. Why would the NHL bigshots put another team in the market when the market is already served. Especially when there are larger markets in the USA without a team. Houston,Portland,Seattle,Indiannapolis,Oklahoma City,Kansas City are all markets which will get teams before another team comes to Canada.

Maybe Saskatoon can buy the Penguins! We almost had the Blues!!

[Only The Lonely..]

The biggest reason the city lost the Jets was because the Winnipeg Arena was an antiquated facility.

http://www.winnipeg-manitoba.com/Photos/Winterpeg/winnipeg-arena.jpg

In the Jets final years there was a proposal to build a 22,000 seat arena at the forks in downtown Winnipeg. However, this effort failed because nobody could agree on an arena proposal that would be a good fit for the city.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6532/rr1cx.jpg

Today with the new MTS centre we have a slightly better chance. The new facility was ranked the 15th best attended arena in all of north america for average attendance according to Pollstar magazine (an entertainment trade journal).

This is up from 17th, ahead of arenas such as the United Center in Chicago, IL (33rd), American Airlines Center in Dallas (35th), the Pepsi Center in Denver, CO (42nd), and the Staples Center in Los Angeles (53rd).


http://www.thesportsroadtrip.com/win2047.jpg
http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/canada/manitoba/winnipeg_mts.jpg

As far as small market hockey is concerned, we're not really all that different from Edmonton.

[SteelTown]

Here's some pictures I have of a NHL game being held at Copps last year. Sold out arena that night. More than 18,000 people showed up. I got the nose bleeder section lol, WAY at the very top, only tickets I could get.

There was rumours that night that Jim Balsillie was there that night, he's the guy trying to relocate an NHL team to Hamilton.

Tonight Sid the Kid will be playing at Copps well hopefully he'll be known as Sid the Steeltown Kid in the future.

Leafs vs. Bruins

My view before game
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_1973.jpg

National anthem
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_1976.jpg

Score!
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_1981.jpg

Crowd reaction to scoring
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_1982.jpg

Fight!
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_1987.jpg

Sold out crowd
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_1989.jpg

Got down to the lower bowl
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_2013.jpg

Copps Coliseum and Standard Life building
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_2020.jpg

[GreatTallNorth2]

This is probably the biggest reason Hamilton/Waterloo/London/Southern Ontario will not get a team. Either by expansion or relocation. The market is already covered by quite a few teams. Toronto,Buffalo,Detroit,etc. Why would the NHL bigshots put another team in the market when the market is already served. Especially when there are larger markets in the USA without a team. Houston,Portland,Seattle,Indiannapolis,Oklahoma City,Kansas City are all markets which will get teams before another team comes to Canada.

Maybe Saskatoon can buy the Penguins! We almost had the Blues!!

It is sillyness to say that the Southern Ontario won't get a team because it is being served. Apply that logic to the business world. Let's say IKEA...there is IKEA in three locations in Toronto and none in Winnipeg. Why didn't they build one in Winnipeg instead of Burlington/Hamilton? The market was being served according to your logic. They built there instead of Winnipeg because of the huge population base and money people have to spend. This is the same reason they will move a team to Southern Ontario and not Winnipeg. The market conditions are right for another team here.

Saskatoon getting a team ever, ever is laughable and about as possible as Winnipeg reaching 1 million people in the next 50 years.

[FALLSVIEW]

I love this shot SteelTown
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Bonaducci1/DCP_1989.jpg

I have 2 questions, what was the original purpose of the arena, was it to lure the NHL or for concerts, Ahl, conventions?

And at the top of the lower bowl in between the upper and lower bowls, it looks as though there are luxury boxes of some sort.

I really do want the NHL in Hamilton especially looking at these pictures. But if not, then Hamilton needs to except its fate and support the Bulldogs, most cities would die for this calibre of hockey in that kind of venue. I know it isn't the same, but sometimes "as good as it gets"....." is as good as it gets!"

[SteelTown]

There are luxury boxes between the lower and upper bowl. More can be added if the roof is raised. The designers of Copps made it easy in case Copps needed to be expanded in the future for more luxury boxes.

I'll give you a short history of Copps Coliseum.

Victor Copps who is Sheila Copps father was Mayor of Hamilton for a long period of time, he probably would have been Mayor for lifetime if he didn't have a stroke and forced to resign as Mayor of Hamilton. But anyways Victor Copps was the mastermind in getting Copps built, which is why the arena is named after him not Sheila Copps which many assume. At the time the NHL said that if Hamilton built an arena and had a wealthy guy to pay for a NHL franchise then Hamilton stand an excellent chance of getting an NHL team.

So Victor Copps pushed hard to get money and John Munro (cabinet minister under Trudeau’s government) made an announcement to help fund the arena. So the ball was rolling and Copps got built to lure an NHL team.

Then 1991 came for a NHL expansion and Ron Joyce was the wealthy guy who would pay for the team. 14,000 season tickets sold and people were dying of the NHL announcement of Hamilton getting an NHL team. Everyone felt confident Hamilton would get an NHL team because everything was in place including a brand spanking new arena.

Then the day of the announcement came and *boom* NHL smacked Hamilton and Victor Copps in the face and said the NHL is going to have a team in Ottawa and Tampa Bay. Wasn’t a very nice feeling.

[Jets4Life]

That's likely because most of the teams in the CHL play out of arenas significantly smaller than Copp's Coliseum. I know that the Ottawa 67's have the attendance record for the OHL, but that's only because they were playing in the (at the time) Corel Centre. Actually, it's a bit of a shame that Hamilton doesn't have an OHL team. I know that they have an AHL team, but it seems that they're kind of out of the loop with the rest of the province. Would I rather be playing a team from Binghamton, or down the road from Kitchener? I know that the quality of hockey might be a bit better, but I imagine it's harder to get a good rivalry going.

That's what I've been saying about the Manitoba Moose (AHL) for years. It may be better hockey, but I would rather see Winnipeg playing Saskatoon, Regina, and Calgary, than the Utah Grizzlies.

[Jets4Life]

The biggest reason the city lost the Jets was because the Winnipeg Arena was an antiquated facility.

http://www.winnipeg-manitoba.com/Photos/Winterpeg/winnipeg-arena.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6532/rr1cx.jpg

Today with the new MTS centre we have a slightly better chance. The new facility was ranked the 15th best attended arena in all of north america for average attendance according to Pollstar magazine (an entertainment trade journal).

Unnfortunately, Winnipeg will never have an NHL team to call their own. The city made the MTS Centre 3,000 seats too small.

[Dalreg]

It is sillyness to say that the Southern Ontario won't get a team because it is being served. Apply that logic to the business world. Let's say IKEA...there is IKEA in three locations in Toronto and none in Winnipeg. Why didn't they build one in Winnipeg instead of Burlington/Hamilton? The market was being served according to your logic. They built there instead of Winnipeg because of the huge population base and money people have to spend. This is the same reason they will move a team to Southern Ontario and not Winnipeg. The market conditions are right for another team here.

Saskatoon getting a team ever, ever is laughable and about as possible as Winnipeg reaching 1 million people in the next 50 years.

Don't get your panties in a knot. You all know Southern Ontario is not going to get a team anytime soon. So you might as well get over it. As for Saskatoon, we had actually purchased the Blues and only needed the NHLs approval to move them which of course we didn't get.

People from Houston are not going to drive to Dallas to catch a game, but I'm sure I could find hundreds if not thousands of people in southern Ontario who drive to Toronto/Buffalo/Detroit. I didn't say you wouldn't support them if you had them. I'm saying the big shots in New York see that area as allready being served.

[Jets4Life]

The differences between cities like Winnipeg and Kitchener/Waterloo are:

1) There is a mega, mega rich guy who loves his hometown Kitchener.

2) Kitchener has several million people within an hours drive. (Mississauga, Hamilton, London, Brantford, Guelph, Oakville, the list could go on). I'm very sure this area has a greater population base than Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and yes Winnipeg.

3) This area is going to continue to grow (unlike Winnipeg)

4) This area because of population base has great corporate appeal.

1) Has the "mega rich guy" indicated he wants to lure a team to the K-W area?

2) Hardly anyone (not in a 50 km radius)will drive hours to watch an NHL game in Kitchener. The people of Southern Ontario already can do that with the Leafs, Sabres or Wings.

3) Winnipeg is growing as well.


4) Great corporate appeal? Give me a break. If the word "Toronto" is not in the teams name, they won't be that interested.

[trueviking]

It is sillyness to say that the Southern Ontario won't get a team because it is being served. Apply that logic to the business world. Let's say IKEA...there is IKEA in three locations in Toronto and none in Winnipeg. Why didn't they build one in Winnipeg instead of Burlington/Hamilton? The market was being served according to your logic. They built there instead of Winnipeg because of the huge population base and money people have to spend. This is the same reason they will move a team to Southern Ontario and not Winnipeg. The market conditions are right for another team here.

Saskatoon getting a team ever, ever is laughable and about as possible as Winnipeg reaching 1 million people in the next 50 years.

not sure why you want to slag winnipeg, but there is some flaw in your logic.

putting a team in suburban toronto will always be second fiddle....corporate toronto will not be rushing to entertain their clients in kitchener, when the leafs are there....does kitchener have any major corporations? or would you be hoping that toronto business will buy suites there and bring their clients from downtown toronto every game?

they would be the L.A. clippers of the NHL.

[trueviking]

Copps Coliseum is a good start....may not be up to snuff by today's NHL standards but when it was built back in the 1980s it was the talk around Hockey circles as a jewel of a Hockey rink.....furthermore, it would only take 6-months TOPS for all the necessary upgrades and renovations required to bring Copps Coliseum up to date by "NHL standards"........add to the fact that if the NHL OK'd Ottawa Senators to play it's first couple of seasons in the NHL out of a Junior Hockey rink; home of the OHL 67s which had seating capacity of around 9,000 then surely they will allow for a Team Hamilton to play it's first couple of season's out of a 17,500-seater Copps Coliseum....upgrades would be done in the off season and quite possibly have the first dozen or so games of the following season be Road games until the construction upgrades are completed........

Secondly, I know that Winnipeg has a new rink but a 15,000-seater is nothing to be tooting your horn about...waaay to small by NHL standards.....

Thirldly, having 2 nearby teams is not a problem....we have 2 nearby teams because we have the Population base to support them....Unlike Winnipeg, Hamilton and Southern Ontario's Population and Economies continue to Boom whereas Winnipeg's population is stable and economy is Flat with no improvements whatsoever for the future...there's enough room to add another NHL club to the Southern Ontario region simply because we have the Population-base and the money; two things that Winnipeg region doesn't even come close to matching with the Southern Ontario region.......

Last but not least....If you can't point out Hamilton and Kitchener on your Map then maybe there's a problem with the Educational system there in the Province of Manitoba? :D

i cant point out kitchener on the map.....99.9% of canadians couldnt, i am sure....isnt it somewhere in the toronto blob, like all the others?

hamilton's population and economy is booming?...i think you need to look at the facts....

2006 gdp growth:
winnipeg 3.1%
hamilton 2.1%

2005 GDP growth
winnipeg: 2.7%
hamilton: 1.1%

2004 GDP growth
winnipeg: 3.6%
hamilton: 2.3%

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/press/2005/MetroNat.asp
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/September2006/14/c5944.html

as for population growth, hamilton and winnipeg are almost identical over the past 5 years.

a detailed business plan has been done for winnipeg and it works in the minds of those who would front the money....even with our smaller arena...so your assertion that it is way too small is not valid.

i think it would be great to have a team in winnipeg, hamilton and quebec...why shit on other cities?...there are plusses and minusses for each market.....it all comes down to ownership.

[eemy]

not sure why you want to slag winnipeg, but there is some flaw in your logic.

putting a team in suburban toronto will always be second fiddle....corporate toronto will not be rushing to entertain their clients in kitchener, when the leafs are there....does kitchener have any major corporations? or would you be hoping that toronto business will buy suites there and bring their clients from downtown toronto every game?

they would be the L.A. clippers of the NHL.

Well, despite my belief that Kitchener will never have an NHL team, in its defense, it's much more than just some exurb of Toronto. In the future that might happen, but right now it really is a booming city in its own right. As I recall, it currently has the highest GDP growth in Ontario. It is a very important centre for technology with such companies as RIM, OpenText and Cybase. Also, it is surprisingly a centre for financial services, insurance services in particular with both Sunlife Financial and Manulife Financial employing several thousand people in the region. Toyota is the largest private employer in the region with a very large automobile plant in Cambridge.

So, it may not be a candidate for the NHL yet, but it is certainly economically strong, and independant of Toronto. It is one of the fastest growing regions in the country in both population and economic growth, and it also has a stable and diverse economy. It's a shame that it's relatively unknown compared to London considering that it's population is essentially the same and that its prospects are so much greater.

[SHOFEAR]

As far as small market hockey is concerned, we're not really all that different from Edmonton.

Yes it is. Edmontonians stepped up to purchase the team after the Les guy from Houston made an offer to buy it. Winnipeggers didn't.

[SHOFEAR]

It is sillyness to say that the Southern Ontario won't get a team because it is being served. Apply that logic to the business world. Let's say IKEA...there is IKEA in three locations in Toronto and none in Winnipeg. Why didn't they build one in Winnipeg instead of Burlington/Hamilton? The market was being served according to your logic. They built there instead of Winnipeg because of the huge population base and money people have to spend. This is the same reason they will move a team to Southern Ontario and not Winnipeg. The market conditions are right for another team here.

Saskatoon getting a team ever, ever is laughable and about as possible as Winnipeg reaching 1 million people in the next 50 years.

People's travel to a store, such as Ikea, is limited by how long it takes to get there. People usually cheer for the same team based on geography (nearest team) and family history. These people watch them on TV, boosting rates for advertising and purchase merchandise like jersey's.

[DrJoe]

Hamilton really hurt their own chances this weekend. Exhibtion game involving the Sabres and Crosby & Penguins only drew 7,700.

[SteelTown]

And they say Hamilton has Sabres fans, pfft I think not lol. Yet somehow Hamilton is under Sabres territorial rights.