MIAMI | Development Thread

[Paul305]

I feel bad for the architect that designed 900 Biscayne. The developers completely butchered it by cost-engineering the crown out of the design. I can't even look at those four buildings anymore without cringing at the sight of 900...

[EAINMIAMI]

[QUOTE=VisionMIA;3437262]to ease your mind...900 Biscayne was scaled down to 649 feet...the older rendering was 712..would've been taller. Marquis from what I was told on SSC went back to it's original plans to reach 698' feet.

Thank you very much for answering my question !

[JDRCRASH]

This doesn't look good. I like the Empire World Towers, though.

Woes in Condo Market Build As New Supply Floods Cities

By Jennifer S. Forsyth and Jonathan Karp
From The Wall Street Journal Online

The condominium market is about to get worse as many cities brace for a flood of new supply this year -- the result of construction started at the height of the housing boom.

More than 4,000 new units will be completed in both Atlanta and Phoenix by the end of the year. Developers in Miami and Fort Lauderdale, Fla., are readying nearly 10,000 total new units in a market already struggling with canyons of unsold condos. San Diego, another hard-hit region, will add 2,500 units, according to estimates provided by Reis Inc., a New York-based real-estate-research firm.


Artist's rendering of the Onyx on the Bay complex in Miami.
The new building comes on top of unprecedented supply. The U.S. finished 2007 with a supply of condos large enough to absorb 10 months of demand, the highest level since the National Association of Realtors began the tally in 1999.

The deluge means bad news for developers and potentially lower prices, including in cities such as Atlanta and Dallas that have avoided the worst of the housing bust. If defaults and foreclosures rise, lenders will feel the pain too.

Regulators have been sounding the alarm for weeks about the exposure of small and mid-size banks to commercial real estate, which mostly means construction loans to developers of condos and single-family housing.

Lenders of all sizes have $42 billion of condominium debt on their books, according to Foresight Analytics. In just three months -- between the third and fourth quarters of last year -- the delinquency rate rose to 10% from 5.9%, says the Oakland, Calif., research firm.

The news isn't bad for everyone. Vulture buyers have started to circle, hoping to take advantage of foreclosed properties that banks may start dumping at fire-sale prices. Also, some condos are being converted to rental units, increasing supply for renters and putting downward pressure on prices.

It may seem surprising that anyone would want to add supply to a market whose troubles have been well-publicized for many months. But the economics of condo building encourage developers to bring half-finished projects to completion, even when prices and demand are plunging.

Developers usually put up their own money for a project first, then spend borrowed funds. Once developers have spent their money and have commitments from lenders, they have a strong incentive to keep building to finish the project.

"These developers had millions of dollars tied up and they had them financed so they just moved forward," says J. Ronald Terwilliger, chief executive of Trammell Crow Residential, which builds many rental apartment buildings and also a few condos. "What they hope is that by the time the project is finished the market comes back."

Shelving Projects

However, developers and lenders can more easily shelve projects that are still in the early stages. Many developments nationwide are being canceled, suggesting that by next year or 2010, the number of new condos coming onto the market may slow to a trickle.

One big question hanging over the market is how many of the buyers who have put down deposits during construction will show up to close the deal. Some deposits were as little as 3% of the purchase price. The price of a condo has frequently fallen more than the amount of the deposit, giving the buyer an incentive to forfeit the deposit.

For example, if a buyer put down $50,000 for a unit priced at $500,000, and the value falls to $400,000, the buyer is apt to walk away -- or find some fault with the unit and sue the developer to get the deposit back. Furthermore, some buyers who still want to move in are finding that they no longer qualify for mortgage loans.

In Miami, only 57 units in the 118-unit Onyx on the Bay have closed since August 2007, leaving the remaining 61 units in the possession of the developer, according to Miami-Dade County records. Willy Bermello, the Onyx's developer, could not be reached.

The deteriorating economy isn't helping. "When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, the last thing anyone wants to buy is a condo," says Cathy Schlegel, a mortgage-loan broker in Fort Worth, Texas, whose condo in a high-rise called The Tower sat on the market for 14 months before she finally sold it at a loss in February.

The rising supply is a reflection of the picture in 2004 through 2006 -- a time of huge demand for condos. Speculation was rampant as investors believed empty nesters and young professionals seeking an urban experience akin to what they watched on "Friends" would prop up the condo market for years.

Most projects take about three years from the time they are marketed to potential buyers to the time they are ready to be moved into. Deposits help developers get a construction loan that is to be paid off when the buyers close on their new condos years later.

However, cancellations are rising, meaning developers may not be able to pay back their banks. Peter Zalewski, founder of Condo Vultures Realty LLC in Miami, says condo developers he is working with are expecting 20% to 40% of buyers who put down deposits to walk away from the deal. In some areas, such as inland buildings and new projects along the river in Miami "walkaways" are expected to be even higher.

Unlike single-family housing, condos tend to be concentrated in certain areas, meaning the pain is limited to pockets of the country.

In Jacksonville, Fla., developer Cameron Kuhn had planned to redevelop the SunTrust office tower into office condos as part of a larger complex that included residential condos. Now the housing condo tower is on hold, dashing city officials' hopes that the project would help to bring parking, residents and more life to the downtown.

Prices of condos have been steady in some areas and fallen elsewhere. The median condo sales price in the Cape Coral-Fort Myers area of Florida fell 26% to $202,300 in the fourth quarter of 2007 from $273,400 a year earlier.

Prices dropped nearly 20% in Tucson, Ariz., and 12% in the Atlanta area during that time, according to National Association of Realtors data. Inside the newly minted Quantum on the Bay in Miami, prices for two-bedroom units have fallen from the high $700,000s to around $500,000.

One option for a developer is to convert the condos to apartments. However, these projects are usually financed with the presumption that sales of individual condos pay off more than rents from a comparably sized apartment building. Also, lenders typically expect developers to pay off condo construction loans with the millions of dollars they receive when closing on the sales. Such a quick payout isn't possible if the developer is only receiving monthly rental payments.

Mr. Terwilliger says Trammell Crow plans its condo developments with an eye towards converting them into rentals if necessary. But its profits are cut when it does that because the company typically spends more for land and amenities when developing condos, he says.

A project called ATLofts at the mammoth Atlantic Station project in downtown Atlanta presold about 80% of its 303 units in a mixed-use building that had condos above retail space. But the project ran into water-infiltration problems. That gave buyers an out.

The developer, Lane Co., ended up turning about half the units into rentals. The developer of the retail space, Atlantic Town Center, bought the remaining 156 units as condos. Today, only 52 of those have sold, according to Haddow & Co., an Atlanta-based real-estate consulting company. An Atlantic Town Center spokesman predicted the remaining condos will sell "considering the prime location."

As more condominium projects get into trouble, investors are looking to pounce. Some 700 people showed up for a distressed-real-estate conference this past week in Miami where the condo glut was the dominant discussion subject.

Valet parking attendants had to wave participants away from the hotel and toward a parking lot at a shopping center, and attendees overwhelmed the conference halls, forcing many to watch the proceedings on screens in adjoining rooms.

-- Peter Grant contributed to this article.

Email your comments to rjeditor@dowjones.com.

[JDRCRASH]

The United States economy remains the strongest in the world!


:lmao:

Where have you been this past decade?!

I think you're referring to actual size of the U.S. economy. According to the statistics, the GDP stands at around $14 Trillion. Yet growth is expected to be less than 1.5% this year......

But in growth %? Tch, please.....I wish that were the case. China is growing at an anual rate of at least 9 or 10% EACH YEAR. Last year I think it was close to 12%!

[bobdreamz]

JDRCRASH thanks for the article ( I think JamesBond posted this somewhere already) but even though Miami has an oversupply of condos now the market will absorb it eventually. Over half of the sales in Greater Miami are condos & multi family units. The only single family homes being built are in the extreme edges of Dade county in places like Homestead which is 30+ miles southwest of downtown.

[JDRCRASH]

@Bobdreamz-Yeah, its just a matter of how long it will take to absorb the units.

Mulit-Family units? Interesting. I guess more and more people want to have their kids grow up in the city.

[VisionMIA]

Man I know what they're saying but I don't know what housing woes that article is refering too. I work for a Home furnishing company and it's everyday I'm meeting people buying for their new condo's in downtown..especially 50 Biscayne, Quantum, and Plaza

[gelu1123]

:lmao:

Where have you been this past decade?!

I think you're referring to actual size of the U.S. economy. According to the statistics, the GDP stands at around $14 Trillion. Yet growth is expected to be less than 1.5% this year......

But in growth %? Tch, please.....I wish that were the case. China is growing at an anual rate of at least 9 or 10% EACH YEAR. Last year I think it was close to 12%!
It is normal that China will grow faster than the United States, the United States remains the world's leading economy for many years.
Things are not going well for the United States, I hope that with the change of president change things.
The business empire of the United States will fall not ever

[NorthJersey]

It is normal that China will grow faster than the United States, the United States remains the world's leading economy for many years.
Things are not going well for the United States, I hope that with the change of president change things.
The business empire of the United States will fall not ever

Hey everyone. I have been a long time reader but this is my first post.
The US economy is in a cyclical downturn which will not last longer than halfway through 2008. Changing political structure has very little impact on growth rates so when the economy comes out of its downturn it will not be because of President Obama/Clinton/McCain. Miami is overdeveloped in the residential market but I believe its commercial market is in good shape. The only way I see the proposed supertalls going up is if they are more commercial than residential. I think the world towers would better serve Miami as commercial buildings. Their look and name just sounds commercial.
I have not been to Miami in years and am realizing that I need to make a trip down.

[Dale]

Hey everyone. I have been a long time reader but this is my first post.
The US economy is in a cyclical downturn which will not last longer than halfway through 2008. Changing political structure has very little impact on growth rates so when the economy comes out of its downturn it will not be because of President Obama/Clinton/McCain. Miami is overdeveloped in the residential market but I believe its commercial market is in good shape. The only way I see the proposed supertalls going up is if they are more commercial than residential. I think the world towers would better serve Miami as commercial buildings. Their look and name just sounds commercial.
I have not been to Miami in years and am realizing that I need to make a trip down.

A downturn not lasting longer than halfway through 2008 is better than the most optimisitc projections I've been hearing.

I do hope you're right.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Hey everyone. I have been a long time reader but this is my first post.
The US economy is in a cyclical downturn which will not last longer than halfway through 2008. Changing political structure has very little impact on growth rates so when the economy comes out of its downturn it will not be because of President Obama/Clinton/McCain. Miami is overdeveloped in the residential market but I believe its commercial market is in good shape. The only way I see the proposed supertalls going up is if they are more commercial than residential. I think the world towers would better serve Miami as commercial buildings. Their look and name just sounds commercial.
I have not been to Miami in years and am realizing that I need to make a trip down.

Many originally strictly residental projects reconfigured their plans to mixed-use once they experienced a downturn in the residential market because the office market was still strong. I'm a big proponent of large mixed-use projects where skyscrapers become almost indepedent cities within themselves as being the wave of the future for Miami with our limited highway and mass transit system. The downsliding U.S. dollar and the feds cutting interest rates again this month could lead to a new influx of foreign investors in 2008 and a market turnaround just that soon. In my Analysis of the "Boom" on SkyscraperCity. com, I credit our significantly war-torn economy and weak dollar as leading to Miami's boom being as big as it was with property becoming a bargain to foreign investors. In addition to this, Miami has had two consecutive hurricane seasons with Florida nowhere on the radar screen. :cool:

The Empire World Towers originally had one of them being strictly residential and at the time would have been the tallest residential structure in the world if it had been built, but developers spent 2 years duking it out with the FAA about height restrictions with MIA in the middle of the city. Finally, they agreed on 1,010 bringing the towers down 190 feet. By that time, a strictly residential supertall had become unfeasible. The developer of the Empire World Towers had to reconfigure it to a mixed-use project to meet the demands of a changing market. He said he will build it in the next 5 years, if the market wants it, and will reconfigure the project before it is built to meet changes in market demand. We already have the 3rd biggest skyline in the country based on what has made it to construction thus far. You won't believe the place when you come down again. The city is totally unrecognizable from just 5 years ago. :tup:

[gelu1123]

We need to build more hotels and more offices, and above all, make a lot of publicity in the city to attract more tourism, especially in Europe.
The city of New York made a publicity campaign in the city in Europe that has worked fairly well, as it is the first tourist destination chosen by the Europeans in 2007. In fact, I myself travelled to the United States and 2 times last year, and I think do it again in May this year.
The construction of new buildings and new tourist attractions (museums, parks, malls) achieved much more tourism to Miami, and tourism gives a lot of money to a city.

[JDRCRASH]

I hope that with the change of president change things.
The business empire of the United States will fall not ever

As much as I would like to believe that will be the case; quite frankly, that theory is a little naive.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

As much as I would like to believe that will be the case; quite frankly, that theory is a little naive.

Yes, I would think so with the current state of affairs.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I feel bad for the architect that designed 900 Biscayne. The developers completely butchered it by cost-engineering the crown out of the design. I can't even look at those four buildings anymore without cringing at the sight of 900...

It was also chopped down by 50 feet so that we didn't get another 700 footer, which was the biggest disappointment to me about it. :no:

[lviz]

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/100_5742_low.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/100_5741_low.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/100_5724_low.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/100_5712_low.jpg

[brickell]

Nice shots. Where did you take this from?

[lviz]

Nice shots. Where did you take this from?

The first two were from the top of Axis.

[noland123]

Looks like they have taken the cranes down from the Logik project for financial reasons,this does not bode well for Miami's office market if this is the case.

[Dale]

^ Miami's in a funk.

[Vinu007]

Empire World Towers looks kind of same like the World Trade Center

[VisionMIA]

:previous: and you are right..they are to commemorate the WTC. which is why their setup is similar to the WTC. they are inspired from exactly that!

[Rebeldon]

Including completed and topped-out buildings, the "Greater Miami Area" which includes Miami, Miami Beach, and Sunny Isles Beach, ranks 3rd in North America for buildings over 500 feet (32), 3rd in buildings over 400 feet (78), and 3rd in buildings over 300 feet (123).

Within the Miami city limits, which does not include the beaches, Miami ranks 4th in North America in buildings over 500 feet (25), 3rd in buildings over 400 feet (54) and 7th in buidlings over 300 feet (82).

Can anybody name the six cities in North America that have more buildings than the Miami city limits over 300 feet? I'll start the list...

New York City (606)
Chicago (291)

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Including completed and topped-out buildings, the "Greater Miami Area" which includes Miami, Miami Beach, and Sunny Isles Beach, ranks 3rd in North America for buildings over 500 feet (32), 3rd in buildings over 400 feet (78), and 3rd in buildings over 300 feet (123).

Within the Miami city limits, which does not include the beaches, Miami ranks 4th in North America in buildings over 500 feet (25), 3rd in buildings over 400 feet (54) and 7th in buidlings over 300 feet (82).

Can anybody name the six cities in North America that have more buildings than the Miami city limits over 300 feet? I'll start the list...

New York City (606)
Chicago (291)
San Francisco
Houston
Dallas
Los Angeles?

I'm impressed with your stats and knowledge of the area. I thought I was the only one looking at the numbers that closely and came up with the same results you did. Few people outside of South Florida know that Miami Beach is not in Miami, but is its own separate city.

[lviz]

I included the shot of Mary Brickell Village as you can see the podium for Skyline.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/3b977069.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/38497319.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/8410acbb.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/4163649f.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/1532a5e1.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/thinkmiami/precon/97003022.jpg

[vanlaw]

http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Investment/10204522.html

Nakheel arm buys stake in Miami resort for Dh1.37b Staff Report
Published: April 10, 2008, 19:28


Dubai: Nakheel announced yesterday that it has invested Dh1.37 billion ($375 million) with Fontainebleau Resorts LLC, a privately-held Las Vegas based resort developer, in exchange for a 50 per cent stake in the US company's Font-ainebleau Miami Beach resort.

Nakheel Hotels, a business unit of Nakheel, will recreate the Fontainebleau Miami Beach in partnership with Fontainebleau Resorts, with a $500 million renovation. The project is expected to open in the last quarter of 2008.

On seven hectares of oceanfront, the Fontai-nebleau is regarded as the crown jewel of Miami Beach resorts. The "new" resort will include more than 1,500 luxury rooms and suites, a 40,000 square foot spa, multiple marquee restaurants, a signature nightclub and ultra-lounge, lush poolscape and approximately 200,000 square feet of meeting, convention and ballroom facilities.

"This transaction provides Nakheel with a premier entrance into the Miami resort market, via the world-renowned Fonta-inebleau. We are always seeking to diversify our portfolio and add to our existing investments in North America, Asia and Europe. Miami, as one of the Unites States' major gateways, has been a key target, which we are pleased to have now," said Joe Sita, CEO Nakheel Hotels.

Nakheel Hotels was launched in November 2007 as the new name for Istithmar Hotels after Dubai World consolidated its hotel business under one banner to create a fully integrated hotel investment company. The hotels business now has a global hotel property portfolio worth $3 billion.

[futuresooner]

So how is Met 2 coming along? I suspect Met3 will not happen until the market improves. Actually, how is the whole development coming along, I think Met1 is open for occupancy.

[Complex01]

Great shots. Still lots happening. I really wanted Met 3 to happen, it was and still will look awesome...

:cool:


2000...:banana: :banana:

[Juan_M2118]

for some reason i think that miami is so similar to chicago, i mean both cities have very modern buildings, a river, BAYSIDE would compare to navy pier, only navi pier is WAY better. The american airlines arena can sometimes be like the united center. I dont know, but their skylines are similar, only chicago has way more buildings, and WAY TALLER ones too,, but i just hink they are??? what do people think???

[NewAtlantisMiami]

So how is Met 2 coming along? I suspect Met3 will not happen until the market improves. Actually, how is the whole development coming along, I think Met1 is open for occupancy.

When I spoke with the sales office of Met3 in December, they said they were starting construction in the first quarter of 2008, and there is activity on the site that looks like the beginning of foundation work. One of the other Miami forumers on SkyscraperCity said that one of the sales ladies told him they were scaling it down, but I don't know how true that is because then they would have to start all over from scratch with sales. I'm sure a lot of the sales they made were with the upper floors where the great views of Miami would be, so we will see. You can never really be sure what you're going to get until a building actually tops.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

for some reason i think that miami is so similar to chicago, i mean both cities have very modern buildings, a river, BAYSIDE would compare to navy pier, only navi pier is WAY better. The american airlines arena can sometimes be like the united center. I dont know, but their skylines are similar, only chicago has way more buildings, and WAY TALLER ones too,, but i just hink they are??? what do people think???

Many of us feel this way. The city really is shaping up to be a smaller version of Chicago. We have a long linear skyline spread along Biscayne Bay just as Chicago's skyline is long and linear along Lake Michigan, and we have skyscrapers along the Miami River just as Chicago has skyscrapers along the Chicago River. Having lived in California, I think Miami is a lot like a smaller version of L.A. as well, so it really is going to be a cross between the two I think, and crossing Biscayne Bay from South Beach reminds of crossing the San Francisco Trans Bay Bridge from Oakland into downtown San Francisco. So I thinik Miami is going to be a cross between these three cities. Miami is definitely more like California than any other east coast city and our mayor views Chicago as the model for what he wants Miami to be.

[Juan_M2118]

Many of us feel this way. The city really is shaping up to be a smaller version of Chicago. We have a long linear skyline spread along Biscayne Bay just as Chicago's skyline is long and linear along Lake Michigan, and we have skyscrapers along the Miami River just as Chicago has skyscrapers along the Chicago River. Having lived in California, I think Miami is a lot like a smaller version of L.A. as well, so it really is going to be a cross between the two I think, and crossing Biscayne Bay from South Beach reminds of crossing the San Francisco Trans Bay Bridge from Oakland into downtown San Francisco. So I thinik Miami is going to be a cross between these three cities. Miami is definitely more like California than any other east coast city and our mayor views Chicago as the model for what he wants Miami to be.

You are right, I was raised in chicago, and i recently moved to miami, after going to downtown miami, i realised how its so similar to chicago, especially with all the cranes and buildings made out of glass, soon, I think miami will win over LA, in sense of # of buildings, I think its going to be
1.New York
2.Chicago
3.MIami (number of buildings, not how big it is, because of course LA is way bigger than miami
But yes miami is similar to LA, especially with the weather, and the palm trees
Thanks!!!:tup:

[Siriusly]

for some reason i think that miami is so similar to chicago

Many of us feel this way. The city really is shaping up to be a smaller version of Chicago.



I don't see the similarity:


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/1811942071_2d0ba91b26_b.jpg


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/480388989_e385230fe9_b.jpg



Maybe in this one: ;)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/51302248225dcfdfa22bxu5.jpg

[VisionMIA]

Ah yes!LOL!!! poor trees! I remember that photo. one of my favorites..

and yeah there is similarities but can't compare Miami to Chicago...
only in the fact that both cities are on the edge of land with a river rippin through..but Miami has come a long way in that pic. to think that 75% of Miami's buildings are no more than 4 years old is amazing.. and It's already almost half the size of Chicago..Miami has come a long way from what is was 4 years ago.. and in that pic of Miami you can clearly see that.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Ah yes!LOL!!! poor trees! I remember that photo. one of my favorites..

and yeah there is similarities but can't compare Miami to Chicago...
only in the fact that both cities are on the edge of land with a river rippin through..but Miami has come a long way in that pic. to think that 75% of Miami's buildings are no more than 4 years old is amazing.. and It's already almost half the size of Chicago..Miami has come a long way from what is was 4 years ago.. and in that pic of Miami you can clearly see that.

I think the two cities are similar in the way that I said, if not much more than that. And I do see those similarities somewhat in those two great pictures of each city above. WOW! Thanks! Some other people see other similarities at ground level.

[Siriusly]

It's already almost half the size of Chicago.

Half the size how? Skyline? Judging from the two examples, I would say it's about a quarter of Chicago.


Miami is definitely America's Dubai though when it comes to the pace of growth, congrats, but how come no supertalls? :shrug:

[NewAtlantisMiami]

You are right, I was raised in chicago, and i recently moved to miami, after going to downtown miami, i realised how its so similar to chicago, especially with all the cranes and buildings made out of glass, soon, I think miami will win over LA, in sense of # of buildings, I think its going to be
1.New York
2.Chicago
3.MIami (number of buildings, not how big it is, because of course LA is way bigger than miami
But yes miami is similar to LA, especially with the weather, and the palm trees
Thanks!!!:tup:

Miami's area is 36 sq miles while Los Angeles is 469 sq miles in area, but it terms of the number of buildings that have made it to construction thus far, that you can't even see in a photo yet because they have not yet gone vertical, Miami is already 3rd. That is how big our most recent boom was. And yes, we are also similar to L.A. with regard to the Hispanic influence as well as the film industry influence. I have not lived in Chicago to compare both cities at ground level as Juan-M2118 has, but I have lived in Los Angeles and I do Find Los Angeles and Miami to be similar. Miami is going to be a smaller cross between Los Angeles and Chicago.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Half the size how? Skyline? Judging from the two examples, I would say it's about a quarter of Chicago.


Miami is definitely America's Dubai though, congrats, but how come no supertalls? :shrug:

You are probably right that it is more like a quarter of the size of Chicago from that pic, but we do have supertalls in the plannning stages, two of which visionMia and I feature in our avatars, the twin Empire World towers. The developer says he will build them in the next five years if the market wants them. There are also skyscrapers off to the left that are not in this picture, and we have more planned to the left of that picture that will make the skyline even longer. One Bayfront Plaza is another supertall that is planned to be our signature building. It will look like the Chrysler building with a Dubai twist to it.

[Siriusly]

You are probably right that it is more like a quarter of the size of Chicago from that pic, but we do have supertalls in the plannning stages, two of which visionMia and I feature in our avatars, the twin Empire World towers. The developer says he will build them in the next five years if the market wants them. There are also skyscrapers off to the left that are not in this picture, and we have more planned to the left of that picture that will make the skyline even longer. One Bayfront Plaza is another supertall that is planned to be our signature building. It will look like the Chrysler building with a Dubai twist to it.


That's good to hear about the future supertalls on their way. I always thought Miami would be perfect to become the Chicago/Manhattan of the South, years ago I thought that it would be Atlanta...

[NewAtlantisMiami]

That's good to hear about the future supertalls on their way. I always thought Miami would be perfect to become the Chicago/Manhattan of the South, years ago I thought that it would be Atlanta...

It is certainly on the way to becoming what I call the Subtropical New York and the Chicago of the South. :tup: :tup: :cheers: Private message me with an email address, and I will send you some of my favorite pics of the new Miami that I've copied for my files. :) :banana:

[VisionMIA]

Half the size how? Skyline? Judging from the two examples, I would say it's about a quarter of Chicago.


Miami is definitely America's Dubai though when it comes to the pace of growth, congrats, but how come no supertalls? :shrug:

to Miami's fairness that pic you had of it was a bit too far away!



I said Almost half.. not half..Geezus. relax Chicago man!

just chop half of Chicago..you see Miami is Almost.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y61/Sotomon3/CHIMIA.jpg

[VisionMIA]

Chicago's other half
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y61/Sotomon3/CHIMIA1.jpg

[Cityseed]

I see the similarities as far as the linear skyline along a body of water is concerned. But to suggest that Miami is even 1/4 of the way there is a bit ambitious. I too wait eagerly for supertalls to arrive on the Miami skyline as I was born and raised here and would love for the Miami skyline to kick butt...but we need a reality check. It just doesn't hack it with the big dogs like NY or Chicago. You can analyze aerial pictures all you want but from the ground level (which is what counts) it is a deficient skyline. Where is the density? Where are the office buildings? Where are the supertalls? Have you noticed that the Miami skyline only looks good from one side (off the bay)?:shrug: Yes, the Miami skyline has made strides in the past 4 years and added a gazillion condos but nothing impressive like say a 1000' office tower. I think the majority would aesthetically rate a skyline by its density and height. Who cares about a bunch of 5-600' condos up and down biscayne blvd. and brickell ave? It doesn't have the same effect as if they were built around a core. Condos are built differently than office buildings and have balconies which give them a ghastly ribbed look. It erks me that zoning would allow a beautiful building like Marquis at almost 700' to be built so far away from the center.:koko: Same thing with the Four Seasons tower. To me it skews the beauty of the skyline if you have 1, 2, 3, in order of height, so far apart when they could've fit them around the center. In Chicagos case, the Sears tower was built off center because there actually wasn't any other place to put it (due to density). However, I understand that most developers want waterfront property and such but I don't think zoning should've allowed it. Furthermore, the density problem Miami is facing is because there are so many satellite cities that allow their own business zones that I think retracts from the demand for office space in downtown. Somehow I hope that the demand for office space increases as the costs to operate a business decrease and for city management to wisen up.:notacrook: :cheers:

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I think the way the city's skyline is spread out between the Rickenbacker Causeway and the Julia Tuttle Causeway and between I-95 and Biscayne Bay is actually a good thing for Miami. I think it helps to relieve traffic congestion since we don't have a really good mass transit system. I also think having tall buildings spread out in this way adds to the beauty of the skyline because it makes these buildings more distinguishable from one another rather than being hidden behind each other. And if you've been following the news and the postings, we have office towers under construction that haven't gone vertical yet, and supertalls planned, one of which is slated to be the city's signature building, One Bayfront Plaza. And I don't agree with a lot of guys on the issue of density being such a good thing either.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

but from the ground level (which is what counts) it is a deficient skyline.

This makes no sense!:previous: And I think the Miami skyline is quite impressive approaching it from SR-836 as well as the causeways. You sound more like someone from New York or Chicago rather than someone who lives here.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I too wait eagerly for supertalls to arrive on the Miami skyline as I was born and raised here and would love for the Miami skyline to kick butt...but we need a reality check. It just doesn't hack it with the big dogs like NY or Chicago.

No American city can hack it with the big dogs New York and Chicago. Those two American cities have set the standard for the rest of the world for over one hundred years and are that much ahead of any other American city. The best any other American city can do is third place. San Francisco has been third. Houston has been third. And now Miami has written its own page in skyscaper history by blasting its way into third place in the 21st century with buildings in the 400 feet tall and up range after having only four buildings over 500 feet tall at the end of the last century. In spite of what the market is doing now, interest in developing Miami further is still very strong with properties having been bought by more powerful developers to build in the future. We are still on the way there. We are not stopping right here. And I think all the things that you've said about the Miami skyline that detract from it are, in my opinion, actually what set it apart and make it unique to Miami. People often think things have to be a certain way because it's always been done that way, but Miami is doing this its own way. The Miami skyline is already kicking serious butt in terms of tall buildings that have made it to construction thus far. That is the real reality check people need to get. The quote from the former Miami city commissioner that I use as my signature line below is actually turning out to be true. And as far as very tall buildings with balconies having an ugly ribbed look, it is only because of recent advances in skyscraper technology that very tall buildings are able to have balconies. Prior to that, it was thought that the balconies catching the wind would cause the building to collapse, so as ugly as that look might be to you, it is actually an advancement that makes the Miami skyline rather futuristic.

[Cityseed]

This makes no sense! And I think the Miami skyline is quite impressive approaching it from SR-836 as well as the causeways. You sound more like someone from New York or Chicago rather than someone who lives here.

What you said doesn't make sense....Why can't I call it like it is just cause I live here? Just cause I live here doesn't mean I have to also live in denial.

You sound like one of these transplants that's still riding the Miami hype. Oh, and I've only lived in Dallas and that was for about a year. The rest of my life has been spent living here. And by the way, Dallas' skyline kills Miami's. Does it bother you?:shrug: Like I said before, my rant was about having a quality skyline, not one with a lot of quantity. Although numbers do help. Just not when they're all condos between 500-700 feet and spread out all over

Back to the relevant. One Bayfront Plaza is an awesome proposal, no doubt. I'd love to see it come to fruition.

[Juan_M2118]

Ah yes!LOL!!! poor trees! I remember that photo. one of my favorites..

and yeah there is similarities but can't compare Miami to Chicago...
only in the fact that both cities are on the edge of land with a river rippin through..but Miami has come a long way in that pic. to think that 75% of Miami's buildings are no more than 4 years old is amazing.. and It's already almost half the size of Chicago..Miami has come a long way from what is was 4 years ago.. and in that pic of Miami you can clearly see that.

Well I was raised in chicago, and i could tell you that aside from any WARM city, CHICAGO would be the most similar than any other city, even Atlanta, New York, or Boston, BOTH chicago and miami have ariver with archictecture sorrounding it, BOTH cities have a body of WATER by its downtown, BOTH cities have MANY CRANES and new buildings(( chicago has sooo many buildings that are goign up, around 70, and like another 91 or more planned, 134 were made after the year 2000)) chicago is WAY more modern than new york or any other city, parlty because it was burned, so it had a chance to grow "in a better, more modern way", BOTH cities have beautiful beaches, and warm summers, BOTH cities have a sort of amusement center by the ocean(lake)> bayside and navy pier, although navy pier is WAY better. BOTH cities are HUGE on tourism, BOTH cities have a highway running on its west side by downtown, BOTH cities are important gateways to the US (miami-the americas) (chicago- Europe ans asia), about SIZE, unfortanely, miami still has a LONGGGGG time before it even reaches half of what chicago is, CHICAGO is not just what you see on the picture above< chicagos skyline might not be one of the dense(s) skyline ever, but it sure is one of the longest ever MIAMI is about less than a quarter of the size of chicago's downtown, and about the size of the city itself, miami is way less than a quarter of chicago,!!!
THANKS

[Cityseed]

No American city can hack it with the big dogs New York and Chicago. Those two American cities have set the standard for the rest of the world for over one hundred years and are that much ahead of any other American city. The best any other American city can do is third place. San Francisco has been third. Houston has been third. And now Miami has written its own page in skyscaper history by blasting its way into third place in the 21st century with buildings in the 400 feet tall and up range after having only four buildings over 500 feet tall at the end of the last century.

Thats the thing, Miami is only 3rd in terms of numbers. You're arguing a different point that isn't what I was talking about to begin with. You're bent on numbers.

This brings me to my next point. You mention that buildings shouldn't be built around a core because then some will block others, right? Well, if you do that, you're creating a skyline that is one dimensional. I think a skyline should be appealing from all angles and should have different faces. Besides, isn't the point of Miami21 to convert it into a walkable urban city? Where you could walk everywhere in the urban core? Well lets say you lived in Marquis, 900 Biscayne, Marina Blue, or 10 Museum park and you wanted to have a drink or dinner in Mary Brickell Village. Would you walk there? Yeah, you could take a cab but then again you could take a cab anywhere. It defeats the purpose of Miami21. Point is, the buildings built around a core offer everthing in walking distance.

[Cityseed]

miami still has a LONGGGGG time before it even reaches half of what chicago is, CHICAGO is not just what you see on the picture above< chicagos skyline might not be one of the dense(s) skyline ever, but it sure is one of the longest ever MIAMI is about less than a quarter of the size of chicago's downtown

Thanks. Although it is not the densest, its still dense enough to stand in any part of the downtown area and get completely lost in the buildings. This was my point as to how density adds to the effect of an amazing downtown. Its that feeling when you look up and get dizzy and feel tiny.

[Rebeldon]

San Francisco
Houston
Dallas
Los Angeles?

I'm impressed with your stats and knowledge of the area. I thought I was the only one looking at the numbers that closely and came up with the same results you did. Few people outside of South Florida know that Miami Beach is not in Miami, but is its own separate city.

Thanks. I'm a stat junky. I've been keeping skyscraper stats since NY and Chicago were the only cities with buildings over 1,000 feet. The internet makes it a lot funner and easier.

I'm from Jacksonville, Florida. I keep my eye on down South.


The answer to my question is (you know the first two): Toronto - 133, Houston - 103, San Francisco -90, Mexico City - 85

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Thats the thing, Miami is only 3rd in terms of numbers. You're arguing a different point that isn't what I was talking about to begin with. You're bent on numbers.

This brings me to my next point. You mention that buildings shouldn't be built around a core because then some will block others, right? Well, if you do that, you're creating a skyline that is one dimensional. I think a skyline should be appealing from all angles and should have different faces. Besides, isn't the point of Miami21 to convert it into a walkable urban city? Where you could walk everywhere in the urban core? Well lets say you lived in Marquis, 900 Biscayne, Marina Blue, or 10 Museum park and you wanted to have a drink or dinner in Mary Brickell Village. Would you walk there? Yeah, you could take a cab but then again you could take a cab anywhere. It defeats the purpose of Miami21. Point is, the buildings built around a core offer everthing in walking distance.

You said in the beginning that you wanted the skyline to kick serious butt, but you don't say how to begin with. I told you how it already kicks serious butt in terms of the numbers. Now if you don't think it kicks butt aesthetically as you indicated in your opinion later, then you are entitled to that. Yes, it does need more buildings that are taller and of some architectural merit to kick butt aesthetically like that of Dallas that you mentioned. Aesthetically, I would place San Francisco third.

"You mention that buildings shouldn't be built around a core because then some will block others, right?"

That is not what I said, this is what I said:

"I also think having tall buildings spread out in this way adds to the beauty of the skyline because it makes these buildings more distinguishable from one another rather than being hidden behind each other."

Now, while I cannot say that I'm a big advocate of density, I am a big advocate of mixed-used projects, especially where skyscrapers become cities within themselves, where ideally you can live, work, play, have dinner, and shop all in the same building or cluster of buildings. Miami certainly needs more of these with our limited highway and mass transit system and not necessarily in a dense urban core. I'm a native Floridian who has lived in South Florida 24 years, btw, but moved here by way of California, both L.A. and San Francisco. I understand all your points. I just wanted to be sure you were getting all of mine.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

What you said doesn't make sense....Why can't I call it like it is just cause I live here? Just cause I live here doesn't mean I have to also live in denial.

You sound like one of these transplants that's still riding the Miami hype. Oh, and I've only lived in Dallas and that was for about a year. The rest of my life has been spent living here. And by the way, Dallas' skyline kills Miami's. Does it bother you?:shrug: Like I said before, my rant was about having a quality skyline, not one with a lot of quantity. Although numbers do help. Just not when they're all condos between 500-700 feet and spread out all over

Back to the relevant. One Bayfront Plaza is an awesome proposal, no doubt. I'd love to see it come to fruition.

"but from the ground level (which is what counts) it is a deficient skyline."

This made no sense to me because I saw ground and sky as two different things. Wasn't sure where you were coming from with that. I don't particularly care for the skyline of Dallas, but it does not bother me that you think Dallas' skyline kills Miami, as you are entitled to your opinion. And no, I am not living in denial because, yes, we do have a long ways to go to have a great skyline, but we have done well to have gotten what we got out of this "boom" at least in the terms of the numbers.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Thanks. I'm a stat junky. I've been keeping skyscraper stats since NY and Chicago were the only cities with buildings over 1,000 feet. The internet makes it a lot funner and easier.

I'm from Jacksonville, Florida. I keep my eye on down South.


The answer to my question is (you know the first two): Toronto - 133, Houston - 103, San Francisco -90, Mexico City - 85

I was born in Jacksonville. Before I moved to California, I actually watched the Modis tower go up when it was the headquarters for Independent Life back in 1974.

[Rebeldon]

I was born in Jacksonville. Before I moved to California, I actually watched the Modis tower go up when it was the headquarters for Independent Life back in 1974.

I remember it too. I remember my father taking me to see the construction site of the Independent Life Building. They were still doing site excavation at the time, and he pointed at the dirt and explained that this was going to be the tallest building in Florida. I may have been five or six at the time--I don't recall. The tallest building in Jax at the time was the Gulf Life Tower. I remember going to Friendship Park and looking at it thinking it was some kind of palace where the president lived. :haha:

[Rebeldon]

"but from the ground level (which is what counts) it is a deficient skyline."

This made no sense to me because I saw ground and sky as two different things. Wasn't sure where you were coming from with that. I don't particularly care for the skyline of Dallas, but it does not bother me that you think Dallas' skyline kills Miami, as you are entitled to your opinion. And no, I am not living in denial because, yes, we do have a long ways to go to have a great skyline, but we have done well to have gotten what we got out of this "boom" at least in the terms of the numbers.


over 700' over 600' over 500' over 400' over 300'
Dallas 5 6 17 26 54
Miami (city limits only) 3 9 25 54 82
Greater Maimi (w/ beaches) 3 9 32 78 123

[NewAtlantisMiami]

over 700' over 600' over 500' over 400' over 300'
Dallas 5 6 17 26 54
Miami (city limits only) 3 9 25 54 82
Greater Maimi (w/ beaches) 3 9 32 78 123

Imagine if Miami-Dade county consolidated the way Jacksonville did in 1968 and we ended up with the Miami Beach and Sunny Isles Beach skylines counted along with the Miami skyline as well creating one long list, but then Jacksonville Beach wasn't part of that anyway as I recall.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

You sound like one of these transplants that's still riding the Miami hype.

I moved to South Florida in 1984 after living under the skylines of both L.A. and San Francisco for 10 years altogether where I became a skyscraper enthusiast and watched buildings go up in both cities. I only moved to Miami because I have family here and settled on South Beach partly because it was the part of South Florida that was the most like California to me. It wasn't even called South Beach then.

Almost every time I drove across the causeways into Miami, I would imagine what it would look like with a skyline like San Francisco's spread along Biscayne Bay the way San Francisco is set against San Francisco Bay. My last apartment on South Beach in 1999, before I bought in Miami, had a 15th floor bay view, and of course I would look out over my balcony and imagine the same thing when I looked at the Miami skyline. I thought it would never happen. Then, all of a sudden, a bigger skyline than San Francisco's is rising up out of nowhere. I'm dumbfounded that it actually happened, let alone what the buildings look like. Can you imagine me kneeling on my balcony and praying to God to send me a skyline.:haha: That's kinda what happened, so I'm not complaining. It's going to get better! :tup:

[Siriusly]

edit

[Cityseed]

My last apartment on South Beach in 1999, before I bought in Miami, had a 15th floor bay view, and of course I would look out over my balcony and imagine the same thing when I looked at the Miami skyline.

I can remember South Beach in the late '90's. No one wanted to live south of 5th. All of a sudden, whoever had something there was suddenly in the money. If you owned that condo then and held it till '06, you made some nice cash. If only I had been wise enough.:rolleyes:

The skyline coming from the Macarthur Cswy looks real nice. Its also real nice if you're on a boat in the bay NE of the Rickenbacker. That is my favorite view since you capture all buildings within your line of sight.

[VisionMIA]

OMG! maybe next time I'll clarify a lil more didn't realize people would jump on this..
and by the way I think the Miami skyline looks great at any angle.

the photos I showed was to see that Miami skyline size or land space of tall buildings is almost half of Chicago.. I never said Density, Height, tall buildings etc..

and I like how we spread our talls from one side to the other. I think it looks better than a tall grouped together in one core. too many US cities look like that. I think the ribbed balconies look is awesome it looks different from any other city in America and shows you Miami is different. you tell me in any other city that has balconie that tall. condos to me means more fun less work. too many office buildings than it will look a bit boring like Houston..I love Houston but it is gray. I would not vacation in that downtown.

[Juan_M2118]

OMG! maybe next time I'll clarify a lil more didn't realize people would jump on this..
and by the way I think the Miami skyline looks great at any angle.

the photos I showed was to see that Miami skyline size or land space of tall buildings is almost half of Chicago.. I never said Density, Height, tall buildings etc..

and I like how we spread our talls from one side to the other. I think it looks better than a tall grouped together in one core. too many US cities look like that. I think the ribbed balconies look is awesome it looks different from any other city in America and shows you Miami is different. you tell me in any other city that has balconie that tall. condos to me means more fun less work. too many office buildings than it will look a bit boring like Houston..I love Houston but it is gray. I would not vacation in that downtown.

Well you said it, Condos to me means more fun less work. A city will not GROW, if it doesnt work. Miami needs to bring BUSINESS to its downtown. In my opinions, and yes i did say MY OPINION< so that people dont come running at me, I honestly think miami is not even a quarter of LAND SPACE like you said, compared to chicago. I tell you this because the pictures you usually see are the main part of downtown, starting from the JOhn Hancock, to the sears tower, well THERE IS WAY MORE, to the north and to the south, yes chicago's skyline almost reaches INDIANA. Like i said, chicago's skyline might not be the densest, (second in the US), but it sure is VERY LONG. VERY VERY long, starting before lake shore drive, and ending way past McCormick Center. I will try to post some pics, but im not sure if i can,, let me try,, THANKS!!!

[Cityseed]

more fun less work.

This has been Miami's problem lately. Everyone wants to party and not work. Everyone wants the cool car while making 10 bucks an hour. The majority of this decade was riding on easy money from the real estate boom.

And btw, modern office buildings aren't gloomy and gray anymore. They can be made out of blue or green glass.

Yes, Juan, you're right about the office buildings. However, Miami is getting a couple of 600'+ office buildings in Met 2 and Brickell Financial Center phase I. Phase II could be over 900' which is pretty sweet.

[noland123]

Miami is a more colorful city as I think Chicago's skyline appears drab the buildings just have a dark and dingy look to them, however Chicago has a dense skyline by far and definitely more office buildings. The skylines are similar in nature as far as a linear appeal and Lake Michigan and Biscayne Bay both have aqua-blue waters

[Juan_M2118]

Well here a couple of shots i got from google pictures, i tried my best, i didnt really get the pics i was hoping to get, I lived most of my life in chicago, so i know. Well anyways, here are the pics that shows that chicago is not just the little part you see on those pics that were posted before. Chicao's skyline is very LOOOONNNNGGGGG,, and downtown has the tallest buildings off course, and thats the problem, because of those high buildings, people tend to forget about the rest, like in this case.

This is what people usually see when they see a pic of Chicago
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/800px-Mike_Chicago_Skyline.jpg[/IMG[IMG]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/ChicagoSkyline-1.jpg
But thisis what they forget to look at,, there is more to the north and sout, west, and well a beautiful lake that looks like an ocean to the east.http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/p239877-Chicago_IL-View_from_the_Jo.jpgThis picture is from Lake Shore Drive, to the north. Downtown is at the end.http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/tennis-center.jpgThis picture is taken from the western suburbs, and where is was taken, IT IS STILL CHICAGO, look at the size of the skyline, long right
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/chicagoskyline.jpg
This picture is taken from the neighboor state Indiana, on a sunny day, you can perfectly see chicago's skyline from the beach in indianahttp://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/fromindiana.jpg
This one clearly SHOWS that the skyline is not just what they usually show on the pictures, the picture is taken from Hyde park, which is 6 miles from downtown, it is still chicago, and you can see the rows of skyscrapers along the shore, yes this is chicago, but many dont know that our skyline is not just about the sears tower, its WAY LONGER.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/lake.jpg
Now i would like to invite someone to post some pics of miami, and only miami, because coral gables, or coconut grove is not miami. I want to see how Miami's skyline compare to chicago. So like i have said before, miami's skyline is not even a quarter of what chicago is. Miami needs to work on office buildings. And some people think that in chicago there aren't buildings with balconies, well we do have plenty. BUt i have always thought that glass was better then balconies, and chicago has WAY more buildings made out of glass. People dont seem to realize that chicago is one of the most modern city in the US, and its after miami for having the second larget BOOM. BUt i still insist that the buildings built in chicago are way more quality.


THANKS!!!!:banana: :banana: :notacrook: :notacrook: :notacrook:

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I can remember South Beach in the late '90's. No one wanted to live south of 5th. All of a sudden, whoever had something there was suddenly in the money. If you owned that condo then and held it till '06, you made some nice cash. If only I had been wise enough.:rolleyes: .

You should have seen the place in the 80s when I lived there before Miami Vice changed everything. It was overrun with Cuban low-life and Ocean Drive was lined with elderly sitting out on their verandas staring out over the Ocean. I think the international appeal of Miami Vice is what changed everything. The show projected a glamorous image of South Florida and South Beach around the world, and those who came to see it for themselves like Gianni Versace, not finding this glamorous image, actually created it. Portofino Tower (484 feet) on South Point Drive was completed in 1997, so people had caught on by then and the Portofino Yacht Club and The Floridian were completed before I left in 1999.

The skyline coming from the Macarthur Cswy looks real nice. Its also real nice if you're on a boat in the bay NE of the Rickenbacker. That is my favorite view since you capture all buildings within your line of sight.

Yes, the skyline coming across the MacArthur Causeway is very impressive. To me, it looks as though a giant tsunami is about to fall on me. And the view from the vantage point you mention I think is our best angle.

We did well to get what we got out of this "boom" though many people take issue with the architecture not looking as 21st century as they had hoped. Ornamentation is just not cost-effective for developers who want to just make money and have no artistic eye. So many of the shorter condos I think kept a lot of taller and more interesting designs from getting out of the ground. That is why statistically Miami is third in the 400 feet tall and up height range only, and not the 500 feet tall and up height range which is the New York and Chicago standard for a skyscraper. That keeps Houston still third behind New York and Chicago. Still the "boom" was such that it has brought unprecedented interest and attention to the Miami, and I think therefore, we will see continued development in Miami at a more civilized pace with taller, more interesting designs to come. :tup:

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Now i would like to invite someone to post some pics of miami, and only miami, because coral gables, or coconut grove is not miami. I want to see how Miami's skyline compare to chicago. So like i have said before, miami's skyline is not even a quarter of what chicago is. Miami needs to work on office buildings. And some people think that in chicago there aren't buildings with balconies, well we do have plenty. BUt i have always thought that glass was better then balconies, and chicago has WAY more buildings made out of glass. People dont seem to realize that chicago is one of the most modern city in the US, and its after miami for having the second larget BOOM. BUt i still insist that the buildings built in chicago are way more quality.
THANKS!!!!:banana: :banana: :notacrook: :notacrook: :notacrook:

Post some of the pics of Miami that I sent you then because I don't have the capability. Coconut Grove is Miami, but doesn't really have any noteworthy tall buildings. Miami Beach and Sunny Isles Beach have noteworthy skylines in Miami-Dade county, but many people outside of South Florida don't realize that they are independent cities, the skylines of which have to be counted separately. While we could never have a skyline as big as Chicago's or as tall because of FAA height restrictions with MIA in the middle of the city, Miami is running into a similar problom of getting all of its skyline into one picture. There are buildings over 500 feet tall that are not in any of the pics VisionMia has posted so far. And we have skyscrapers approved and property zoned for skyscrapers farther north. Park West is zoned for skyscrapers as well, so the skyline will fill out as well as get longer over the years. I'm calling it the Chicago of the South because it will look more like Chicago than it will any other city, with a long skyline that will become more broad and dense over the years. :tup:

[Siriusly]

Here are some pretty good examples of the point that you're making Juan:


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/2321671411_883efc2df2_o.jpg




http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/497255694_caad31fe5b_b.jpg


These shows how far north the skyline strecthes:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/23501147572fee68d622bkm4.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/93825947_d03f7b23fc_o.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/1363056924be0afd2142buo2.jpg

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Those are some great pictures of Chicago. I'm so glad I found the skyscraper websites because I have found some incredile shots of a lot of great skylines!

Yes, it is a pretty good example of the point Juan is making, and I have sent him that very same pic of Miami because it is also a pretty good example of the point we are making as well. I would not say Miami's skyline is half or even a quarter of the size of Chicago's skyline, but I think it is pretty clear from those pics that the Miami skyline is shaping up to look like a smaller version of Chicago's. In fact, from comparing those photos, I think Miami's skyline is shaping up to look even more like a smaller version of Chicago's skyline than I had originally thought with where the buildings are located in the pic and along the the Miami River. Where you see the white building at the top of the Miami skyline in the middle of the pic is the northern boundary of the new downtown with several skyscrapers approved for that area with more property zoned for skyscrapers that far north (Edgewater) and just a little further down to the left of the builidings in the photograph (Park West).

For those of you not familiar with South Florida, the bridge at the bottom is the Rickenbacker Causeway, which takes you to the Miami Seaquarium and Key Biscayne where people picnic and go to the beach at Crandon Park. Crossing the Rickenbacker Causeway into Miami is what looks a lot like taking the San Francisco Transbay Bridge into San Francisco. The other causeways north of there take you to Miami Beach, the barrier island shaped like a shark's head to the right. The cluster of buidlings in the nose of the shark's head is South Beach and driving across the causeways from South Beach into Miami has become very dramatic.

[Siriusly]

Heres is a Great pano of the length of the Chicago Skyline:


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/hermpano8mz.jpg

[Siriusly]

Those are some great pictures of Chicago. I'm so glad I found the skyscraper websites because I have found some incredile shots of a lot of great skylines!

Yes, it is a pretty good example of the point Juan is making, and I have sent him that very same pic of Miami because it is also a pretty good example of the point we are making as well. I would not say Miami's skyline is half or even a quarter of the size of Chicago's skyline, but I think it is pretty clear from those pics that the Miami skyline is shaping up to look like a smaller version of Chicago's. Where you see the white building at the top of the Miami skyline in the middle of the pic is the northern boundary of the new downtown with several skyscrapers approved for that area with more property zoned for skyscrapers that far north and to the left of the builidings in the photograph (Edgewater and Park West).


I agree with you, I believe Miami is capable of becoming a smaller version of Chicago... I realize that we've had a pretty big head start also. I think Miami will eventually compare to Chicago in the way that we currently compare to New York:


This is ridiculous!!!
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/2358267028_1cd1eee386_b.jpg

[Juan_M2118]

Here are some pretty good examples of the point that you're making Juan:


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/2321671411_883efc2df2_o.jpg




http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/497255694_caad31fe5b_b.jpg


These shows how far north the skyline strecthes:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/23501147572fee68d622bkm4.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/93825947_d03f7b23fc_o.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/1363056924be0afd2142buo2.jpg


I must congratulate you for putting those pictures up there, since i think you live in chicago, i KNOW that you know what is going through my head. I now live in miami, and its good, but OH MAN, i wish i lived in chicago. Seeing my city gro so much, without me really there makes me real sad. **one thing though, I know chicago is growing very fast, and in a couple of years, we will even get another boom of 100 or more tower**, I really want chicago to grow, but to a point, i would hate to see chicago, like a new york, i mean new york just doesnt have AIR TO BREATH. lol, well thats my opinion. Im just so exited that the the waterside is going up even though it had problem, the spire, legacy, one museum park west, aqua, and so many more, that you get lost, and dont even know where to begin. THOSE PICS ARE AWESOME man i miss chicago, going to the beach, downtown, the museums, shedd a, united center. Congratulations, i would love to see more pics of chicago and miami, since you (i dont know how) find exelent ones.
And NEWATLANTISMIAMI, i thank you for sending me those pictures, they were really awesome, never had i seen miami from those points of view.

From the City of Magic
much love to the Windy City (politician talk)
*windy realy doesnt mean (windy), lol:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Siriusly]

Thanks for your kind words Juan and I found all of those pics on SSC:

Here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=411382

As for what you said about Chicago not becoming too much like New York, I agree, We have all the luxuries of a Megapolis like New York but still have liveability...

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Then Juan, post the pics I sent you here because I'm not able to. After all, it is the Miami Development Thread. I would especially like the ones from the jet liner posted that has all the cranes, and the one with the sunset that shows how long with skyscrapers the Miami skyline is going to be.

[Juan_M2118]

Then Juan, post the pics I sent you here because I'm not able to. After all, it is the Miami Development Thread. I would especially like the ones from the jet liner posted that has all the cranes, and the one with the sunset that shows how long with skyscrapers the Miami skyline is going to be.

Here you go people,, enjoy, the last two are from CHICAGO

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami2.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami7.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami9-1.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami5.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami6.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami3.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami1.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami9.jpg

And this is chicago, you know i love to show it off, lol
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/chicago.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/chicago-skyline.jpg

now can someone put more pics or miami and chicago please,, lol maybe even FUTURE skylines of both cities??

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Here you go people,, enjoy, the last two are from CHICAGO

now can someone put more pics or miami and chicago please,, lol maybe even FUTURE skylines of both cities??

Thanks, Juan!

That first pic is our Brickell Financial District from the air. Notice all the cranes, and foundation work is going on at the bottom of the picture where the cleared lots are. Most of the green has been zoned for skyscrapers with approved projects waiting for the market to turn around.

The second pic is from my old South Beach apartment 10 years ago. Compare the difference.

The third pic is the Brickell Financial District and the CBD beyond from the Rickenbacker Causeway.

The fourth pic from Miami Beach at sunset with the skyline beautifully outlined in silhouette shows how far the Miami skyline will eventually spread. Four buildings over 500 feet tall have been approved for the space where the sun is in the pic, and more surrounding property has been zoned for skyscrapers.

The fifth pic shows where our supertalls will be in the skyline, One Bayfront Plaza and Empire World.

The sixth pic also from South Beach shows the full spread of the skyline currently with buildings over 500 feet tall.

The seventh one from the jet liner approaching Miami International Airport is my favorite with the Brickell Financial District in the foreground and downtown beyond and the then the Edgewater Arts District. I have that as my wall paper all the time. Brickell Avenue is our Wall Street down here.

[Siriusly]

Here you go people, enjoy

I really like this pic, are these towers definite?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Juan2118/miami6.jpg



Now can someone put more pics or miami and chicago please,, lol maybe even FUTURE skylines of both cities??

I don't know where any future Miami pics are other than the one above but here is one of Chicago ... Fom Ryan81, There are a copule significant towers still not in this rendering... I hope someone can find some of Miami to compare the future growth of the two cities...

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/2003872472632916456_rs.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/2000466192488370639_rs.jpg

[Siriusly]

Here are some Mimai pics that I found, the first one is my favorite of the all the pics I've ever seen of Miami:



http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/2103264012_d9c7b0ebe7_b.jpg


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/miamifp8.jpg


Not to keep posting Chicago pics in the Miami thread but here's one I figured you guys would like, it's the only nitetime rendering of the Spire I've seen:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/alasra2000/cs9vj6.jpg

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Our supertalls are not definite yet. One Bayfront Plaza with the Dubai twist has been approved and is slated to be our signature tower. The twin Empire World towers have not yet been approved, but they are the ones the developer says he will build in the next 5 years if the market wants them. If they do get built relatively soon, Miami will have the distinction of being the only American city outside of New York and Chicago with more than one supertall. And if all of Florida's buildings over 500 feet tall were put in Miami, we would not only get the ones on Miami Beach and Sunny Isles Beach, but the ones in Tampa, Jacksonville, Hallandale Beach, and Cape Canaveral as well (the Vehicle Assembly bldg.)

[VisionMIA]

ahhh! Chicago! so large, so elegant it demands respect!
well here is a bit of MIA.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/826/img5395finiship9.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2417/2218004221_94ecfe5b45_b.jpg
credit Miami dammit it is long. 3rd long! in US terms of course!
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c38/michelle9118/Fascination%20in%20the%20Mayan%20Riviera/IMG_0456.jpg

[Siriusly]

Nice pics Vision...

In this pic, is that cluster of buildings on the right side that look further forward than the main cluster on their own peninsula?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c38/michelle9118/Fascination%20in%20the%20Mayan%20Riviera/IMG_0456.jpg[/QUOTE]

[NewAtlantisMiami]

In case he doesn't answer, that cluster is on the tip of South Beach. Here, you are seeing both the Miami skyline and the Miami Beach skyline from out to sea. Miami Beach along with Surfside and Bal Harbour are on a barrier island which technically could be considered the beginning of the Florida Keys. One of the pics on the previous page from very high up shows how they are related to each other and connected by the causeways. When I lived on Miami Beach, sometimes I went for weeks without ever leaving South Beach. Sometimes, with my bay view, I never left my apartment for a whole weekend. For New Year's Eve, the Fourth of July, or any occasion, I would just stand on my balcony and get invited to parties.

[VisionMIA]

yes you have a mix of both skylines there that would be the Miami Beach skyline which goes all the way north on the beaches.

here is another skyline of Miami. Sunny isles. I call this the sleeper skyline of Miami..
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2250/2379247664_01bbdb7918_b.jpg

[Siriusly]

Thanks for answering Atlantis & Vision...

I'm so confused trying to place where everything is at in relation to downtown. Sunny Isles, Miami Beach, South Beach, it's too much...:)

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Thanks for answering Atlantis & Vision...

I'm so confused trying to place where everything is at in relation to downtown. Sunny Isles, Miami Beach, South Beach, it's too much...:)

We have the distinction here in Miami-Dade county of having 3 noteworthy skylines all separate from each other. The Sunny Isles Beach skyline could hold its own along side the skylines of a lot of other major American skylines. So far, it has 8 buildings over 500 feet tall, and God knows how many in the 400 and up range. It is because of NIMBYS on Miami Beach though that the Miami skyline and the Sunny Isles Beach skylines are as big as they are. The Miami Beach development boom of the 1990s sparked an antidevelopment movement. But it would be so great if Miami Beach had all the buildings on Sunny Isles Beach and was actually part of the city of Miami. Then we would have two great skylines on both sides of Biscayne Bay in the same city. Well, you can't have everything in life. At least they are all in the same county. :)

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Are you Chicago guys familar with Helmut Jahn? You should be. He's a Chicago architect. He had planned to build 3 Towers over 600 feet tall on South Point in South Beach in the 90s, but the NIMBYS shot the project down saying we weren't Chicago. I wanted to kill somebody. One of the "Save Miami Beach" people asked me to sign a petition before I knew who they were, and I asked "What are you trying to save Miami Beach from?" When they said they were trying to save it from sky rises (a lot of Latins call them that). I said "But I like sky rises!" He just looked at me like I was weird.

[Cityseed]

sky rises (a lot of Latins call them that)

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Cityseed]

http://www.miamiherald.com/460/story/500447.html

I'd much rather go here for an event than bayfront. Its got a great view to downtown.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

http://www.miamiherald.com/460/story/500447.html

I'd much rather go here for an event than bayfront. Its got a great view to downtown.

I agree with you! I like that place. Maybe they can get it going again. :yes: :tup:

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Half the size how? Skyline? Judging from the two examples, I would say it's about a quarter of Chicago.

From the two examples, you are right, but based on what has made it to construction thus far and has not yet gone vertical, Miami's skyline will be a little more than a third of the size of the Chicago skyline as well as third in the U.S.. We will look a lot more alike then. :cheers:

[Tom In Chicago]

I'm not going to delete all the off topic Chicago/Miami/New York comparisons for two reason. . . 1 - there's just too many and 2 - the conversation has not gotten mean-spirited. . . but let's keep this thread back on topic. . . this is about Miami projects and construction. . . please keep it that way. . .

. . . and yes. . . everyone knows who Helmut Jahn is here in Chicago. . .

. . .

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I'm not going to delete all the off topic Chicago/Miami/New York comparisons for two reason. . . 1 - there's just too many and 2 - the conversation has not gotten mean-spirited. . . but let's keep this thread back on topic. . . this is about Miami projects and construction. . . please keep it that way. . .

. . . and yes. . . everyone knows who Helmut Jahn is here in Chicago. . .

. . .

Thanks! I really enjoyed the pics of the Chicago though:) . Have never seen perspectives like that. I never knew what the city really looked like until now! :haha: Sometimes, it just happens that way.:tup:

[GREGGYMIAMI305]

Check Out The Videos Of Downtown Miami Construction I Posted In The Found City Video Section !!!!

[Rebeldon]

over 700' over 600' over 500' over 400' over 300'
Dallas 5 6 17 26 54
Miami (city limits only) 3 9 25 54 82
Greater Maimi (w/ beaches) 3 9 32 78 123

I went back to look at the thread and noticed my info was incorrect.

Corrected info...

Dallas 5 11 17 26 54

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I'm not going to delete all the off topic Chicago/Miami/New York comparisons for two reason. . . 1 - there's just too many and 2 - the conversation has not gotten mean-spirited. . . but let's keep this thread back on topic. . . this is about Miami projects and construction. . . please keep it that way. . .

. . . and yes. . . everyone knows who Helmut Jahn is here in Chicago. . .

. . .

Our current second tallest tower (which was our tallest for 20 years) is the Wachovia building, and it was designed by the prestigious Chicago architectural firm of Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill. It was so far ahead of its time, that fits right into the new Miami skyline with architecture that speaks well to the area in which we live. The elegant design of its terraced top creates a beautiful inverted triangle of squares at the top of one of its corners as viewed from the Rickenbacker Causeway. From that angle, it says MIAMI so exquisitely! What a great job they did for us! It would be so nice if we could have another one like that from Chicago.:tup:

[Rebeldon]

Our current second tallest tower (which was our tallest for 20 years) is the Wachovia building, and it was designed by the prestigious Chicago architectural firm of Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill. It was so far ahead of its time, that fits right into the new Miami skyline with architecture that speaks well to the area in which we live. The elegant design of its terraced top creates a beautiful inverted triangle of squares at the top of one of its corners as viewed from the Rickenbacker Causeway. From that angle, it says MIAMI so exquisitely! What a great job they did for us! It would be so nice if we could have another one like that from Chicago.:tup:

It is very similar to Chicago's Three First National Plaza, in design, height, and was built around the same time and designed by the same firm.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/3firstnational33.jpg

[drew11]

Has anyone seen that the developer building met three is chopping it down 25 floors. There was an entire discusion on ssc about it, they said it would end up from 42-56 floors and there might be a design change. Really dissapointing it could have been an iconic tower for the city. :(

[Cityseed]

Sad news indeed. Are they changing from residential to mixed use?

[drew11]

Sad news indeed. Are they changing from residential to mixed use?

I don't really know i think it will stay the same. I would have liked it to stay at 849'. The developer must be :koko:

[Complex01]

:previous:

I agree, i was very much looking forward to this tower standing out from that location. Its one of my favorite projects out there. Sad news. They better do something good with it...